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Ayodhya - The Debris of Consensus Free Speech Host 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM Prem Shankar Jha argues that "the only way ahead is for Hindu leaders to explicitly and publicly forswear any resort to coercive tactics and for Muslim leaders to agree to allow a temple to be built at the present site and a mosque to be built at a site chosen by them." What do you think? Heal The Breach Of Faiths |
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Free Speech Host 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 1 of 381 ) Sir Vidiadhar Surajprasad Naipaul called the demolition of the mosque at Ayodhya "an act of historical balancing". Sri Vajpayee invokes Gandhiji's "Ram Rajya" to give a clean chit of "nothing communal" to Rajivji's "initiatives at Ayodhya" and to assert that "there was no dispute over a Ram [rama,raama,raam] temple at Ayodhya being an expression of the national sentiment," in his musings. Oh, but it was in the past tense. What do you think? |
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Prem 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 2 of 381 ) Prem Naam Hai Mera, Not Chopra. Hey, why are you guys so obsessed with this Naipaul chap. He's old and desperate in search of his atavistic past. |
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Preeti 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 3 of 381 ) I think we should not allow the politicians to play with the sentiments of the innocent by using religion as a vote gathering tool. I am glad you point out the role played by the late Rajive Gandhi. I think Vajpayee is being far less than honest. Somehow I get the feeling that you are very anti-BJP and anti-Vajpayee. He is not that bad a person. As for Ayodhya, I think we should build an ashram for the old widows and orphans there. or a school, or a hospital. |
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kunal 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 4 of 381 ) what needs to be done in ahodhya.huh let me think. first of all as indications are this site is the site of a temple which the mad amn babar razed to the earth. make a temple there and give those mullahs some land soemwhere to work on.. to hell with all the protests |
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Bobby 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 5 of 381 ) If the vandalism dont by these Kar-Sevaks is described as "an act of historical balancing", then I guess the Dravidians should also balance things with the Aryans. People like him are best left to themselves.. Let them write and read their own books. And if Ayodhya is a National sentiment , then can My Vajpayee explain why the Temple still hasnt been constructed at the Babri Mosque Site? |
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hari 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 6 of 381 ) In the history of India what happened in 1992 at ayodhya is an single act of decisiveness which hindus have shown. But we still have two more places to be liberated. Lets not loose focus on them |
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rav666 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 7 of 381 ) Building an orphanage would only encourage other religious sites to be razed so that hospitals or schools can come up there. The act of demolition was illegal and needs to be rectified - a la Amritsar where the Akal Takt was rebuilt after it was damaged. The historic issue of "whether a Ram [rama,raama,raam] temple existed and if yes, where?" needs to be examined only after that. An approach for our 'civilized' times. |
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sid 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 8 of 381 ) what outlook (read congress mouthpiece) is usually saying is what some people must have said when the muslims first came here: that we are a secular society, we must all live peacefully etc etc. It's good to see that atleast some hindus have the guts to openly admit that the utter wrong (demolishing of the temple) that was done long ago was due to our own "scared" attitude and that this needs to be corrected. So it's a good idea to ammend the errs done by cowards that let the mosque be built in the first place. |
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jaggu 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 9 of 381 ) I would say that its wise to construct the temple there and give the muslims an alternate site to construct their mosque. Afterall Ayodhya ayodhiya is the birth place of Ram [rama,raama,raam], who epitomizes Indian Culture, Lets have that respect.To Hell with all political parties and mullahs and VHP. |
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Prem 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 10 of 381 ) Prem Naam Hai Mera, Not Chopra. Is Outlook a COngress mouthpiece? That's news to me. Last heard they were a bunch sponsored by Pakistani ISI. And is Outlook "secular"? I sure hope so, though I am beginning to have my doubts. Every now and then you see all those undercurrents of hostility against the muslims. But what I would really like to know is was Ram really born at the present day ayodhya? I believe even Sri Lal Krishna advani seems to have his doubts about that and has been saying that that's what the Hindus believe. What about (some) Christians then who believe the world was created in 8 days or whatever it is that they believe. We cannot let religious beliefs come in the way of a property dispute. |
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jayp 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 11 of 381 ) This is not the problem of policians or political parties. people are problem. Anything happens and politicians or political parties are blamed. Every one needs some leadership. no one wants to do anything by themselves. People in the India are getting irresponsible. Its your responsibility that you live your life your way not the way someone(whoever, weather is politician, Sadhu, mullah, father in church) else pointing you. Let them involve in your life to a border of spirituality. Don't talk about Mahatma. He did what he wanted to do. He followed his ways to get the most important thing for the India and now every one follows those ways for little things. Don't use those ways for you small perposes. Something happens and Bharat Bandh, Hadtal, Stricks what the (I am sorry but I had to say)f*** is that? |
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Rhino 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 12 of 381 ) It is not the people but the politicians who are to blame. Even BJP whom we all thoufght was concerned about Hindus is interested only in coming to power and doing vote bank politics. We would beliieve they are true hindus only if they do something about the plight of kashmiri pandits. But they are more concerned about the bricks and stones and mortar for the temple in Ayodhya than the misery and untold suffering of 350,000 Kashmiri Pandits displaced from Kashmir. I say, spit on all these politicians. We should be all tolerant of other people's rights and not let the politicians take over. |
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habeeb 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 13 of 381 ) let all of us understand one thing very clearly that AYODHYA issue is not at all religious...it is totally a political game which our rotten politicians are playing with us all. first lets demolish (read..throw) them all- opportunists (read politicians) and then... let us all sit together to find out a solution...that is if the problem still persists!!!! (because you would have thrown all the politicians...) |
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avinash 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 14 of 381 ) Hey, what the hell is the obsession with the Babri issue anyway? I'm fed up of hearing the phrase. Nobody talks of the thousands of temples that have been demolished since independance. Touch one mosque and the so called "secular Indians" in Parliament are ready to disrupt proceedings and stage walkouts. THe whole damn thing is nothing but populist politics to garner muslim votes. We should go ahead and make a temple there.And as for the politicians please, can we talk about other 'mundane' issues like development, education, and nation building?. Avinash |
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Gayathri 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 15 of 381 ) I am aghast to find messages like the above. What is this obsession? WHat obsession? I wish we remembered it all year around and not just in a ritualistic fashion on Dec 6 which is a black letter day for all of India (including muslims, since they are part of all of India too) to hang its head in shame that in these "enlightened" times we are wondering why this obsession. Destruction of any one or thousands of temples in the medieval past or the medieval present is no justification for an organised, mobilised mob to take the law into its own hands, terrorising the minority by its flagrant violation of not just the law but all decent human conduct. On what grounds should a mandir be made there? WHere exactly should the mandir be made? Why shouldn't a mosque be rebuilt like the Golden Temple was? Why was the last remnants of the structure of the mosque allowed to be demolished? Why is congress and cpm playing party politics with an issue that strikes at the very basis of our secular nationhood. There was a time I could look a Pakistani in the eye and talk about our great heritage of syncreticism, of living together and how the very idea of Pakistan was flawed and a mistake and based on separatism. Incidents like this only underline and bolster the spirit of separatism, when we should be learning to forget our differences. |
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habeeb 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 16 of 381 ) i totally agree with gayatri..let bygones be bygones, ...and...lets stop playing with our lives and lets devote our energy to build our nation....the issues are tooooo many......rather than sitting and discusssing over some mosque and temple ans its rebuilding.........when ???????? |
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mihirtr 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 17 of 381 ) I think we should all put this at our backs. Some people like me think that it was correct step others might not agree with that. But what is done is done now. We should now focuss on future and try to progress as a country. That is what is really required. The earthquake showed how under prepare we are to handle natural diasters. |
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vivek 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 18 of 381 ) A majority of Hindus do believe that Bhagwan Ram [rama,raama,raam] was born at the particular spot and therefore they should be allowedto construct the temple at that spot. Unlike Hindus Muslims don't believe in idol worship and there is no reason as to why the mosque can't be built at some other spot.Irrespective of the religious sentiments, you can't equate an invader with the 'Maryadapurushottam' |
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nishath 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 19 of 381 ) outlook is a true secular magazine and who so ever doubts outlook's secularity he is "thee"communal person. As far as ayodhya is concerned let us leave it to the courts to decide and hope that atleast in this case the courts would give a fair verdict in less time so as to put an end to this dividing issue that has realy disturbed the secular fabric of country. |
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DANNY 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 20 of 381 ) THIS IS ONLY A POLITICAL ISSUE, I THINK EVEN THE BJP DON'T WANT TO DEMOLISH THE MOSQUE, BECAUSE THEY WANT THE ISSUE TO BE ALIVE. THE MOSQUE DEMOLISHED BECAUSE OF SOME INNOCENT, CRAZY,FOOLISH ETC. PEOPLES BECAUSE THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING/ WHAT THEY HAVE DONE. AND NOW I CAN SAY THIS IS A STILL POLITICAL ISSUE. THEY ARE PLAYING WITH THE SAME PEOPLES, WHAT THEY NEED IS (VOTE). BUT THIS ISSUE WILL NEVER HAPPEN. I AM SURE TRY IT & C C C C. |
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Tathagat 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 21 of 381 ) appa DeepO bhava god created world (there is no evidence, if there was one than the world was already there) in six day... 4004 years ago.. or whatever... Bible proved wrong, and that it is not written by god... kepler, copernicus, gallele... and 384 years later these jaahils still believes (half the world as word of god, which was suppose to be infallible... ha)... god exist not... so no book he wrote... Immature and novice grandson of Jawahar's assasin are branded terrorist and banned, and the ban renewed regularly, periodically... but what happened to Mahatma's assasins, those terrorist are determining the future course of this so called great country, ... leading... :(( we won't be surprised if we> see questions like... how many carsevaks did it take to take law in its own hand for demolishing (erasing the name of Babar from the pages of history) on in all crorpati shows, for petty 50-60 crores their river of hatered burst its banks... and they killed Gandhi, people who enslaved these jaahils put up with him for 50 years and the jaahils couldn't tolerate him for 15 months. ...lol... Atom Bomb Vajpayee called himself swaNyam sevak, and prays the same prayer as the Mahatma's assasin prayed while he was hanged, he is underoath to make this country a Hindu Rashtra, how can constitution and the country be safe in his hands. |
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Tathagat 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 22 of 381 ) appa DeepO bhava Mahatma Gandhi led the country for forty years and made the people believe, "When independence comes all your problems are solved. There will be no poverty, no suffering, no riots, no violence. These Hindu-Mohammedan riots in which thousands of people are killed, burned alive, are created by the British rulers." It was easy to dump it on the British rulers -- dump everything on the British rulers. You are suffering because you are in slavery. You are poor because they are exploiting you. You can never live a respectable life if you are under the shoes of the British Empire. People believed him, just the same way as Jews had believed Moses. They followed him. The independence came... and that was the great moment of failure for Mahatma Gandhi, because it is not such a simple affair that just by getting rid of British rule all your problems are going to disappear. Your problems are millions of years old. The British were in India for only three hundred years. Before that you were poor, hungry, uneducated. In fact, the British Empire did everything to raise the standard of life in India. It introduced all kinds of technology, science, in every possible way. It introduced medicine, schools.... But nobody was going to thank them. Who is going to thank the person who is enslaving you? -- they were the cause of all the riots, of all the murders, of all the butchery. So, people were waiting: "When the British go back, we will be living for the first time as human beings -- there will be no poverty, life will be a bed of roses." But life not only remained the same, it became worse, because the British rulers knew how to rule. In three hundred years they had created a system to control, to keep discipline. Now all that disappeared with them, and the people who came into power had no idea what power was. What to do with power? How to use it? And suddenly there was a tremendous outburst of violence such as India had never seen before, perhaps no other country has seen ever before. Gandhi was shattered. Now the British were gone, but the violence was a million times more, because the British had a certain discipline, power, and they had managed the country for three hundred years. Now there was nobody; everybody was free to do whatsoever he wanted. Thousands of people were killed, burned; trains were burned, stopped and completely burned, and nobody was allowed to get out of the trains. Houses were set on fire. The whole country was in a mess. In Pakistan, the Hindus were being killed. In India, the Mohammedans were being killed. And the leaders were at a loss as to what to do. Gandhi himself said, "Now nobody listens to me." And he had been the absolute leader of the people for forty years. His voice was the voice of the country, and now he said, "Nobody listens to me. I have become a false coin -- useless." He used to say, before India became independent, that he would like to live for one hundred and twenty-five years, because after independence there would be real life; right now, what was life? But as the country became independent, and the whole country was on fire -- violence everywhere, destruction everywhere...even his own followers, intimate followers, were no longer listening to him -- he said for the first time, "Now I don't want to live one hundred and twenty-five years." Perhaps when Nathuram Godse shot him, he felt relieved, because he was carrying a burden. He could not show his face to people; there was no answer. |
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rav666 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 23 of 381 ) Tathagat, aren't we mourning the death of the Mahathma a little too late? :-) |
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Prem 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 24 of 381 ) Prem Naam Hai Mera, Not Chopra. Rav666, exactly my thoughts. What does that, if you'd excause my political incorrectness, well, Gujarati Bania, have to do with any of this? And it might be fun to read the sections of patrick French's book on him. Let me see if these Outlook buggers have it in their archives. And if you ask me, it was he who brought in religion into politics and it was Jinnah who opposed this move. |
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Prem 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 25 of 381 ) Prem Naam Hai Mera, Not Chopra. It would be instructive for Tataghat to read the extracts from Liberty or Death which are available on this very site: "If you believe that Gandhi was a blameless saint, try reading what he actually said and did at crucial points in the freedom movement—such as 1921, 1942 or 1946—and you will soon change your mind. He was an extremely wily politician, who failed to listen to the opinions of his opponents." |
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pshyam 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 26 of 381 ) Indians were very good warriors, tough they never invaded other countries. The problem started when they stopped fighting. We were invaded n looted n our culture invaded n so were some of our temples destroyed. As per history ram [rama,raama,raam] temple was there when babar invaded. Then the king babar was powerful n commanded his forces to destroy the temple n build a mosque. Now the king ********* is somebody let us see if he can marshall his troops to build a temple. As long as humans live they will fight and the winner is always at advantage. the coin can turn anytime. And now for the million dollar question should the temple be built there or not? If u ask me let the guys who have guts build it n let the other guys who have the guts to stop it. The storm will abate only when it crosses the shore. If it does not now then we are in for deep trouble |
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Tathagat 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 27 of 381 ) appa DeepO bhava to build a temple there is symbolic... it will be unofficial proclamation of a Hindu Rashtra... the very first demand of which lead to partition n so much of blood n suffering... one of major accomplishment of Gandhi was to alienate such fundamentalist forces? n boy he did succeed, while we r merely witnessed to it all, deaf dumb n blind like those monkeys of the mahatama? Two major movements remained non violent... King n the Mandela were inspired by Gandhi... or else there would have been so much bloodshed. I love Gandhi despite of his ideosyncracies... :) |
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Prem 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 28 of 381 ) Prem Naam Hai Mera, Not Chopra. Indians never invaded other countries? Hmmm, what about, to give a recent example, Sikkim? Or Ranjit Singh going all the way to Afghanistan? You just need to go back to history and you'd find all those Hindu rajas all the times happily invading and conquering other countries. Even our scriptures - mahabharata and ramayana - are both about invasion and conquest, though the gloss of good triumphing over evil is always given. WHich is what the invaders from the North (somehow Islamists doesn't sound right to describe them) did - in the name of Islam, victory of the pious and God-fearing over the infidels and idol-worshippers. The posts of "unknown" are very illuminating, though it would be nice to see them contested ot debated. Some day, when I have the time... |
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Prem 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 29 of 381 ) Prem Naam Hai Mera, Not Chopra. May I submit, with al due respect, that had it not been for Gandhi and his bringing religion into politics, those like Jinnah would have remained their moderate, liberal selves rather than having to posture and take extremist positions. Some recent history - particularly not written by the "Nationalist" historians would be useful. Mushirul Hassan, Ayesha Jalal are two names that come to mind. |
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rudra 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 30 of 381 ) There is no question that Shri Ram [rama,raama,raam] temple should be built at the erstwhile Babri Masjid site at Ayodhya. The cheif bottleneck is, as others have already pointed out and is evident in this forum, the disunity among Hindus. The Hindu "pseudo secularists", ie, seekers of the Muslim vote have and are misguiding them. People like Mulayam Singh Yadav are a disgrace not only to Hindusim but to all self respecting people of Islam also. The best way is that the Muslim brothers appreciate Hindu aspirations in this matter and ask their leaders to relinquish their demands. Otherwise there will only be death and destruction. Jai Mahakaal. |
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Tathagat 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 31 of 381 ) appa DeepO bhava ... I thought only dehati, rawdies n a rustic element wanted a temple there... u too... angerezee speaking... angel of death n destruction... 2/3 female illiiteracy, half the male illiterate... this country gotta be cursed!!! only an abhishipt n shraapit rashtra can have so many illiterate... and bye the way... the saaksher (literate) are not sikshit(educated)... take a good look at urself in the mirror (u need more schools, more n better earth moving equipements... sniffer dog (not just to sniff RDX n Drugs... but the people alive, and people dead under the debri...) basic decency, duty, honesty... the list is long of what u baboons need to do right away... forget a mandir there... come clean of the Liberhan commission... ha ha ha!!! and bye the way Muslims (they are also baboons to me) are in majority here in this mallich country... hindus can not be called one b'coz of a divided god (tumhara ishwar tak khandit hey) and the caste system... |
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rudra 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 32 of 381 ) I thought this section of the discussion is dedicated specifically to the Shri Ram temple issue and not to pour out excruciate frustration with India and life! |
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Sanjeeb 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 33 of 381 ) Outlook is a Sonia Gandhi mouthpiece! |
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arvindsu 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 34 of 381 ) As good as it gets The destruction of the mosque was indeed an expression of mationalist sentiment.How long do you think a temple built demolishing the grand mosque in mecca would have stood if in theory,some hindu invader had demolished it.The intolerence of muslims to the slightest blemishes in their religion brought about by "infidels" is too well known.How can they expect another religion to condone a wanton act of sacrilege perpetuated by alien muslim invaders on hindu religion.Its high time hindus became more assertive and killed any talk of perpetuating insulting monuments like the mosque in mathura and kashi.i would like the muslims to give me one plausible reason as to why a mosque built after DEMOLISHING and RAZING a hindu temple should stand where it is..... |
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Sundeep 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 35 of 381 ) Jaga, if you want to discuss Islam or the status of women in Islamic societies, please start a new discussion thread. This thread is specifically for Ayodhya - the destruction of the mosque. Please confine your post within a thread to its subject matter. Asides and digressions are okay, but only if they are asides and digressions. When your post is primarily about something entirely different, please feel free to start a new discussion. |
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Sundeep 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 36 of 381 ) e-mail received from Md.As.Ghouse: Well Gentlemen and ladies if the subject above is valid ,then the term 'national' obviously excludes non-hindus,as they most positively do not subscribe to the law of jungle as a mode of 'national' sentiment expression--and I'm privy to many hindus themselves who do not view the P.M's statement as incorrect. Further if Naipaul sees Ayodhya as a balancing historic occurrence,then God help this nation when every Tom Dick and Harry will embark on such 'balancing' acts in future--and who is Naipaul to comment on we Indians when he has deserted India for the cooler and moneyed climes of England. Regards, Aslam,Chennai-40. PS:I would applaud your editorial independence if you gird your loins and publish above in your letters to editor.agm. |
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pshyam 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 37 of 381 ) Religion has taken the upper hand in people's mind, which means we are loosing tolerance. there will be extremists in every side. I am not vouching here asking people to become atheists. but what i am trying to tell is where religion took a back seat the countries have prospered much better. India as u know has now become an avial (tamil word sorry if some could not understand). People have came n gone. but if we are now to make india back as it was in original shape (eg. before babar invaded) like building the ram temple then we are going towards establishing hinduism in india. I am hindu. i do not see anything wrong in it. but are we going in the right direction. One more thing this is not the right place to argue is hinduism better or islam better. Religion is basically bent on keeping the society intact. |
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Admin 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 38 of 381 ) PLEASE NOTE I have removed a lot of irrelevant messages from various discussions. Not because they were for or against any particular religion, but simply because of their irrelevance to the subject under discussion. A new discussion for " 'Hindu' versus 'Muslim'" has been created in Society. I request all posters and religious zealots - be they Hindu, Muslim, Sikhs, Christians or whoever - to please confine their harangues and rants, for or against any religion, to that discussion. It is instructive, though painful, to see how one perceives the 'other'. We hope that once all spleen has been vented, perhaps saner voices will step forward to put this in perspective. Please note that if any discussion is spammed in future with irrelevant posts, only to disrupt and derail it, all such posts would be summarily deleted. Please use this area to communicate, not to harangue or barrage those who intend to exchange views on a given subject. Thank You. |
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krish 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 39 of 381 ) There is no Fucking God in this world. Can anybody create world in six days. No almighty can do this. Peoples mind is obfuscated by religious faiths which are forced and inculcated in them in the childhood. Only Nature is the god. Man cannot win the nature. By our innovative methods we create new gods and religions. Athiesm is the true religion. Were there no people before christ, allah, rama. The half life of the life is five billion years, don't fool yourself that god created world in 4004 years and earth in six days or so. All are fucking religions in this world. Why cannot allah give prosperity to Afgan, Indonesia and other islamic countries. Why cannot Lakhs of Hindu gods give prosperity to India. Why can't Jesus give peaceful life to all christian dominated countries. It is man proposes and he only disposes, God have no role to play there. Let us demolish all the religious worshipping places of all religions in India and be an example to the world. An Athiest can lead a better life than a pious person. Why should we bother about religions and gods since we are basically agnostic. |
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Bubka 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 40 of 381 ) krish, All of your ancestors must number in the millions; it's hard to believe that many people are to blame for producing you. A half wit gave you a piece of his mind and you held on to it. I can only look at your post and think that you are beyond hope----unless you start thinking with your own mind, which reminds me i want to give a piece of my mind to your mind, so tell me where is it located these days? |
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Hindu 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 41 of 381 ) RAMAJANMA BHUMI: AYODHYA - NEW ARCHAEOLOGICAL DISCOVERIES ON THE 18TH OF JUNE 1992, when the ground near the Ramajanma Bhumi was being levelled, a most startling archaeological discovery was made at Ayodhya. At a depth of about 12 feet from the ground level near the Ramajanma Bhumi temple, towards the south and beyond the fencing, a big hoard of beautifully carved buff sandstone pieces was located in a large pit, dug down below the old top level. A careful study by a group of eight eminent archaeologists and historians found that all these objects are architectural members of a Hindu temple-complex of the 11th century A.D. The group comprised Dr. Y.D. Sharma, former Deputy Director General, Archaeo logical Survey of India, Dr. K.M. Srivastava, former Director, Archaeological Survey of India, Dr. S.P. Gupta, former Director, Allahabad Museum, Prof. K.P. Nautiyal, Vice-Chancellor, Avadh University and former Head of the Ancient History and Archaeology Department, Garhwal University, Prof. B.R. Grover, former Director, Indian Council of Historical Research, Shri Devendra Swarup Agrawal and Dr. Sardindu Mukherji of the Delhi University, and Dr. (Mrs.) Sudha Malaya of Bhopal. The Temple: The experts who visited the site on behalf of the academic organization, "The Historians' Forum", on the 2nd and 3rd of July 1992, are unanimously of the view that the temple, to which these fragments belong, is of the developed NAGARA style of ancient temple architecture which was current in northern India during the later part of the early medieval period i.e. the period after 900 A.D. and before 1200 A.D. The temples of this style are characterized by a distinctly imposing Shikhara, which is a tall and tapering spire over the Garbha-griha or sanctum sanctorum, which houses the main deity. |
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Hindu 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 42 of 381 ) The Shikhara Amalaka: The developed Shikhara is like a mountain with several tiers of subsidiary Shikharas, rising one above the other and projecting partially from the main Shikhara. The Shikharas are crowned with a very distin- ctive circular piece of stone, called amalaka, which is shaped like a cogged wheel, with bead-like mouldings along the periphery. It is so very typical of the tepmles of northern India that no one in the world who knows even a little about the Hindu temples can cast any doubt about its position in the temple structure. There are two examples of half-amalakas, in the present hoard of objects, evidently used on the top of the subsidiary Shikhra, called Shikharas of Karnas, i.e. fringe spires. The Shikhara Jala: The second most significant find is the curvilinear part of the Jala mouldings present on the Shikharas. It is beautifully decorated with scrolls. It also belongs exclusively to the north Indian temples of the period after 900 A.D. since the technique of its carving involves the method of scoop- ing out of the areas around the floral elements so that the art-motifs are framed with surface absolutely plain. It is called 'Stencil' technique. The Capital: The third most noteworthy sculptured piece of stone in this collection is a rectangular capital of a piller with beautiful mouldings in the form of highly stylised lotus petals arranged as narrow parallel strips carved in low relief around the capital. The Cornice: The fourth example of stone sculptures belongs to the most characteristic member of the Nagara style of temples -it is called Chhadya, and in Hindi Chhajja, sun-shade, where the straight wall over the high plinth meets the base of the Shikhara. It is carved and shaped like rectangular Mangalore tiles to serve not only as a sun-shade but also allow the rain water to run off quickly and protect the structure. It is a corner-stone of the cornice. Floral frieze: There is one frieze of continuous leaf-moulding which decorates one of the top lines of the plinth of the temple. |
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Hindu 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 43 of 381 ) Door-Jamb: There is one example of a door-jamb or dvara-shakha of the main entrance of the temple. It is decorated with a meandering floral design, carved in 'Stencil' style. Images of Vishnu's Incarnations: There is also a fragment of a stele embellish- ed with the most significant sculptures of a number of Vaishnavite gods, viz. a Chakrapurusha, i.e. a youthful male figure standing gracefully at an angle (tribhanga) and holding vertically in the palm of the right hand the character- istic wheel or Chakra of Vishnu. Another image is that of Parshurama, sitting cross-legged and holding a battle-axe in the left hand. Below him is the image of Balarama, the elder brother of Krishna, with a canopy of serpent-hoods and having a wine-cup in his hand. Still below him is the image of a mother godess (matri-devi), the bestower of all good luck. As per the iconographic stipulation, there should have been an image of Dashrathi Rama, i.e., the son of Dasharatha, above the image of Parshurama, in order to complete the trio of three Ramas in the full set of ten incarnations of Vishnu. Evidently, the temple to which this stele belongs has necessarily to be a Vaishnabite one. Shiva-Parvati: Besides the above, there are several other images. One is of Shiva-Parvati, also called Uma-Maheshvara. It was found from a shallow mound called Nala, located some 200 meters away from the site of the above hoard of art and architectural pieces. Though Shiva's head is now lost, his hand hold- ing a Trishula or trident is fully intact. Similarly, although Parvati's face is not extant, her hand from behind Shiva's neck is found resting on his right shoulder in an embracing position. Stylistically, it is also datable to the 11th century. Terracotta Figurines: Art objects of burnt clay belonging to the earlier periods, such as the Kushana (1st-3rd century) have also been found. These images belong to various Hindu gods and godesses. |
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Hindu 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 44 of 381 ) EXPLORATIONS From 4th July through 18th July 1992, Prof. B.R. Grover camped at Ayodhya, during the period when the ground acquired by the UP Government was being levelled up. It is during this operation that he came across towards the east and south of the Ramajanma Bhumi, large floor-areas, in the pre-Islamic levels, which were carefully paved with burnt bricks. These places were then systemati- cally exposed and photographed in situ for permanent record. He located some brick-walls as well. He noticed similar flooring and also brick-walls at the so-called Janmasthan area, across the modern road, built by the British after cutting the Rama Kotmound. The floor covered with burnt-bricks spreads over thousands of square metres now largely encircled by the newly constructed Rama Divar. During that period Prof. Grover had released as many as three reports of his findings to the press which prompted the Historians' Forum to send two eminent field-archaeologists to examine the reported discoveries. |
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Hindu 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 45 of 381 ) FRESH EXCAVATIONS Huge Brick Walls: On the 22nd and 23rd of July Dr. K.M. Srivastava and Dr. S.P. Gupta went to Ayodhya and scraped the section facing east and also dug at least two feet still deeper in a small area along this section. They discovered a huge burnt-brick wall of more than a dozen courses running along the section and beyond it. Below this, after a little break, the remains of another brick- wall have been found. At two different pre-Islamic levels, there are the remains of brick-laid floors. Mass Destruction: There are clear cut marks of massive destruction of the huge wall mentioned above since brick-debris and large pits have been located here. Further, there are two hard rammed floors of Chunam and Kankar, laid one above the other with a significant break in between but over the level of the brick- wall. There is therefore, enough new archaeological material which conclusively proves what Prof. B.B. Lal, the previous excavator of this site, has been repeatedly saying that here at the Ramajanma Bhumi there was an impressive structure of the 11th-12th century built on pillers standing on a series of parallel burnt-brick bases which was destroyed in the early 16th century, in all likelihood the bases carried on them the same temple-pillers which are fixed in the 'mosque'. These new archaeological findings also confirm the views expressed earlier in 1990 by Dr. S.P. Gupta that the 16 black stone pillers and one piece of door- jamb with carvings of gods and godesses existing in the so-called 'Babri Mosque structure' and also the adjoining areas, belong to a 11th century Hindu temple, possibly Vaishnavite. |
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Hindu 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 46 of 381 ) Muslim Testimony: The new discovery further confirms the claims of all early Muslim authors, like the grand-daughter of Aurangzeb whose writing was cited in Sahifa-i-Chihal, Nasaih Bahadur Shahi, Mirza Jan, the author of Hidiqa-i- Shahada and a large number of other 18th, 19th, and even 20th century scholars like Shri Abdul Hai, have repeatedly mentioned that anciently here, at this very site, called 'Janmasthan', there was an imposing Hindu temple which was destroyed by the Muslims and a mosque was built over its debris. Mir Baqi's Claim: Indirectly though, the newly acquired archaeological evidence also equally confirms the statement made by Mir Baqi in his inscriptions, still found fixed in the structure of the 'mosque', that at this very place he built a structure for the angels to descend, specifically at the command and permiss- ion of Babar. The Hindu Testimony: And finally, it lends full support to a long standing Hindu tradition of the Valmiki's Ramayana, the Vishnu and other Puranas and a host of other works of the Sikhs, Jainas and Buddhists as well as the Sanskrit classics like Kalidasa's Raghuvamsham, according to which for thousands of years this ancient settlement with Rama Kota was occupied and reoccupied following desertions and destructions, the story of which has, however, been recollected in two important monographs, one is entitled Ayodhya by Hans Bakker and the other is Ram Janmabhoomi vs. Babri Masjid by Koenraad Elst published in English in recent years. |
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Hindu 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 47 of 381 ) HISTORICAL BACKGROUND OF THE CONTROVERSY Babar Stayed at Ayodhya: The so-called 'Babri Mosque' was built in 1528 A.D. The Babarnama, Babar's diary of everyday events and autobiography, mentions that on March 28 in the year 1528 Babar came to Ayodhya, called 'Oudh' in those days, and camped on the river-side of a tributary of the Saryu, flowing near the township. Here he stayed for a few days, till April 2nd, 1528, after defeat ing the then Afghan ruler of this place who had rebelled against him. He may have stayed longer, but no one knows exactly how long since the original pages of his hand-written diary pertaining to the period between April 2nd and Sept. 18 of 1528, were lost in a storm that overtook Babar's tents in 1529. After Aurangzeb: The successors of Babar continued to rule over this place till the early 18th century. After Aurangzeb's death (1707 AD), the territories of Awadh were marked by lawlessness. During the reign of the Mughal Emperor Md. Shah and the tenure of the governorship of Burhan-un-Mulk Saadat Ali Khan, a serious riot took place between the Hindus and the Muslims (1735 AD), the former claiming their right over Ramajanma Bhumi. This is the earliest judicial reference available in this regard so far. What the Europeans Saw and Wrote?:In 1767 itself, a Jesuit missionary, Joseph Tieffenthaler, who stayed at Ayodhya for a number of days and left behind his account written in Latin, found that in spite of the Mughal Kings' efforts to prevent them, the Hindus had re-occupied the courtyard, raised a 'Rama Chabuta- ra' thereon and worshiped there by circumambulating it three times and finally prostrating before it. On the Rama Navami day they congregated here in lakhs. Significantly, they continued to worship under the domed structure as well. More details are available in the accounts of Montgomery Martin, Edward Thorn- ton, P. Carnegy and others. |
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Hindu 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 48 of 381 ) Serious Riots: In 1855 once again a big clash took place in which scores of men were killed; such riots and killings never subsided: there are several historical, judicial and revenue records to prove their occurrences. During the British Raj: After the establishment of the British rule in Avadh in 1856, the battle for Janmabhumi was primarily fought in the courts of Law. How- ever, in 1934 a very serious riot took place in which the domes were destroyed to a very large extent. After this, it is common knowledge that the authorities repaired the structure and closed it down for some time. However, it was opened in favour of the Hindus, step by step, after 1949 under various judicial orders New Evidence: In continuation of its earlier efforts, the Historians' Forum feels happy to place in the hands of the public and the government this new uncontrovertible archaeological evidence which proves that there did exist at this very site a magnificient temple, from at least the 11th century, which was destroyed to build a mosque-like structure over the debris of the temple in the 16th century. There is every possibility that there existed at this site one or more temples of still greater antiquity, some of which were built with burnt-bricks in which images of gods and goddesses made of terracotta were installed. |
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Hindu 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 49 of 381 ) AYODHYA - SUMMARY OF FACTS By R. K. Hariprasad and Sonu Nadira Dr. S. P. Gupta, Director of Allahabad Museum has since retired. Mr. Justice Deoki Nandan has since retired. Prof. B. B. Lal, Director General of Archaeological Survey of India has retired. There is incontrovertible archaeological evidence which proves that there did exist at the very spot of the Ram Janma Bhoomi a magnificent temple from at least the 12 th Century A.D. onwards which was destroyed to build a mosque like structure over it in the 16 th Century A.D. There may have existed at this site one or more temples of still greater antiquity, which were rebuilt or renovated later thru out history. |
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Hindu 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 50 of 381 ) SUMMARY OF ARCHAEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE : 1. The Babri structure had 14 pillars made of 'Kasauti' black stone with Hindu images. Also inside the Babri compound was a piece of a door jamb with images of 'Mukut-dhari Dwarpal' and 'Devakanyas'. Iconographical evaluation of these pillars and the door jamb by Dr. S. P. Gupta (former Director of Allahabad Museum) showed that these belonged to a Hindu temple of the 11 th Century A.D. period when the Garhwal Kings of Kanauj ruled Ayodhya. 2. Between 1975 and 1980 Prof. B. B. Lal (the then Director General of Archaeological Survey of India) conducted an excavation behind the Babri structure and even touching it. The excavation showed pillar bases of burnt bricks (of the preexisting temple). The most beautiful pottery dated around 8 th- 9th Century B.C. was also found. 3. On June 18 th 1992, when the ground near the Ram Janma Bhoomi was being levelled, at a depth of 12 ft, several beautifully carved buff sandstone objects were found. These objects included images of Vaishnav divinities with one 'Chakrapurush' sculpture also showing 'Parashuram' and 'Balram', an image of 'Shiv-Parvati' (largely broken) and many carved stones such as corner were terrecotta Hindu images of Kushan period (1 st to 3 rd Century A.D.). These and other objects found during subsequent excavations during July 1992, were found to be members of a Hindu temple complex of about 11 th Century A.D. by a team of 8 eminent archaeologists and historians. The team included Dr. Y. D. Sharma, former Deputy Director General of Archaeological Survey of India, and Prof. B. R. Grover, Director of Indian Council for Historical Research. 4. The destruction of Babri structure on Dec. 6, 1992 revealed many archaeological remains which irrefutably prove that Mir Baqi had incorporated parts of the preexisting temple in the construction of the Babri mosque. The remains include a temple bell, several intricate and detailed carvings, an image of Vishnu, and several other Hindu images. The principal amongst the findings however is a 2 ft wide by 4.5 ft long buff sandstone tablet 'SHILA LEKH' bearing an inscription in 'Devanagari' script and Sanskrit language. The 'Shila lekh' describes an ancient Ram Mandir existing at Ram Janma Bhoomi at least since the 12 th Century A.D. which was built by a Garhwal king Raja Govindachandra. The 4 th line of this 'Shila lekh' specifically describes a temple of Lord Vishnu (Hari) at the 'Janma Bhoomi Sthal'. The 15 th line describes it as a massive, magnificent temple dominating the landscape, and with steeples 'shikhar' adorned with gold 'Kalash'. The 17 th line specific- ally mentions the location as Ayodhya and the 'Saket Mandal', while the 19 th line mentions the 'Vaman Avatar' and then mentions Ram as the destroyer of evil Ravan. NET, IT WAS A TEMPLE ! |
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Hindu 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 51 of 381 ) BRIEF HISTORY - 1528 THRU 1934 : As per historians, since 1528 there have been at least 76 armed conflicts in which over 300,000 Hindus sacrificed their lives to restore the Ram Janma Bhoomi temple. Summary of these conflicts is as follows: Babar's reign (1528-1530) - Hindus launched 4 attacks in which 100,000 people were killed. Humayun's reign (1530-1556) - Hindus launched 10 separate initiatives to regain control. Akbar's reign (1556-1605) - Hindus fought 20 battles. Aurungzeb's reign (1658-1707)- Hindus fought 30 battles. One such battle was led by Guru Gobind Singh in which Aurungzeb's army was defeated. Four years later, Aurungzeb again attacked Ayodhya and regained control after killing 10,000 Hindus. Sahdat Ali (1798-1814) - Hindus fought 5 battles. Nasir-uddin Haidar (1814-1837) - Hindus fought 3 battles. Wajid Ali Shah (1847-1857) - Hindus fought 2 battles. British Rule (1912-1934) - Hindus fought 2 armed conflicts. Hindus never gave up on one of their holiest places. Hence the only conflict free periods were when they were allowed to worship inside the disputed structure. For example, in order to avoid further conflict, during the latter part of his reign Akbar allowed Hindus to build a platform known as 'Ram Chabutra', and to install and worship images of Ram Parivar in the so called Babri compound. This practice was later opposed by Aurungzeb which resulted in most battles for the control of the shrine during his reign. In 1751 A.D. Maratha Sardar Malhar Rao Holkar after defeating the Pathans in the plains of Ganga and Yamuna, asked Nawab Safderjang to hand over Ayodhya, Kashi and Prayag to the Peshwas. In a letter dated February 23, 1756, Nanasaheb Peshwa asked Sardar Scindia to annex Ayodhya and Kashi as the handover of these holy places was already promised to Raghoba Dada by Suja- uddoula. Later in 1789 A.D. Sardar MahadJi Scindia did annex Ayodhya, Mathura and Kashi, but due to his untimely demise was not able to restore the temples of Ram Janma Bhoomi, Krishna Janma Bhoomi and Kashi Vishweshwar back to Hindus. Joseph Tieffenthaler (1710 - 1785), an Austrian Jesuit priest toured Oudh (Ayodhya) region between 1766 and 1771 A.D. His account of Indian History and geography was translated and published in French in 1786 A.D. Tieffenthaler states 'The Emperor Aurungzeb destroyed the fortress called Ramkot and built at the same place a Mohammedan temple with 3 domes. Others say that it has been built by Babar. One can see 14 columns made of black stone .. which bear carvings ... Subsequently Aurungzeb, and some say Babar destroyed the (heathen) place in order to prevent heathens from practicing their ceremonies. HOWEVER THEY HAVE CONTINUED TO PRACTICE THEIR RELIGIOUS CEREMONIES IN BOTH THE PLACES (inside the 3 domed Babri structure and the compound), KNOWING THIS TO HAVE BEEN BIRTH PLACE OF RAMA, by going around it 3 times and prostrating on ground". According to the British records by Thornton (1854 A.D.) and Carnegie (1870 A.D.) till 1855 A.D. Hindus continued to worship Ram in the 3 domed structure. During the First War of Independence of 1857 the local Muslim leader Amir Ali persuaded the Muslims to finally hand over the disputed place to Hindus and jointly fight with the British. However the British won the War of 1857 and Amir Ali and Hindu leader Baba Ram Charan Das were publicly hanged from a tree near the Ram Janma Bhoomi. The British subsequently put a railing wall between Babri structure and the courtyard and separated the Muslim worshipers who got the Babri structure and Hindus had no choice but to do puja outside in the courtyard. NET - HINDUS CONTINUED TO WORSHIP AT THE DISPUTED STRUCTURE AND NEVER GAVE UP STRUGGLE TO REGAIN CONTROL OF RAM JANMA BHOOMI SINCE 1528. |
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Hindu 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 52 of 381 ) RECENT HISTORY - 1934 THRU 1992 : In 1934, during the armed conflict between Hindus and Muslims the Babri structure was damaged. Since 1936, the Babri structure was an abandoned building and did not function as a community mosque for local muslims. There is no evidence of any Mutawalli or Imam or Muazzin or Khatib or Khadim having functioned as the mosque management as such for the up keep and maintenance of the 'mosque'. A Waqf report dated September 16, 1938 showed 'Syed Mohammad Zaki' as a Mutawalli. But later the District Waqf Commissioner found that Mutawalli Zaki was a Shia, an opium addict and most unsuited for the duties of a Mutawalli. Meanwhile the Sunni Waqf Board claimed that Babri mosque was under its control. A report dated December 10, 1949 by the Waqf inspector Mohammad Ibrahim, to the U.P. Sunni Central Board of Waqf, states that 'due to the fear of Hindus and Sikhs NO ONE OFFERED NAMAZ IN THE SAID 'MOSQUE'. On December 23, 1949 the image of 'Ramalalla' appeared in the disputed structure and Hindus resumed prayers and worship inside. On December 29, 1949 Additional Magistrate Markandey Singh confiscated the building and handed over the posession to Priya Dutta Ram as Receiver, who assumed charge of the same on January 5, 1950. After almost 12 years, on December 18, 1961 the Sunni Waqf Board filed the law suit seeking the possession of the disputed structure. This law suit was liable to be dismissed since the then prevalent statute of limitation for property takeover of 6 years had already passed. SINCE DECEMBER 23, 1949 THERE HAVE BEEN DAILY HINDU PRAYERS AND WORSHIP AT THE RAM JANMA BHOOMI TEMPLE. NET, BABRI WAS NOT A FUNCTIONAL MOSQUE, AND IT HAS BEEN A FUNCTIONAL TEMPLE FOR AT LEAST 42 YEARS. |
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Hindu 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 53 of 381 ) "Mosques built after destroying temples are the sign of slavery and Muslims should hand over the same to Hindu Society" - Mahatma Gandhi in 'Navjeevan' dated July 17, 1937. "Hindus profess secularism because they are cowards and are afraid of Muslim countries." - Syed Shahabuddin - Convenor of Babri Masjid Coordination Committee (BMCC) in 'Sunday' dated March 20, 1983. |
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Hindu 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 54 of 381 ) On April 7-8, 1984 the Dharma Sansad (religious congregation) took decision to launch a movement for replacement of the existing mosque-turned temple with a proper temple structure. OPTIONS OFFERED BY HINDU LEADERSHIP : Prior to December 6, 1992 Hindus had offered following options: Muslims should hand over the Babri structure as a goodwill gesture to Hindus. The unused Babri mosque has no religious significance to Muslims what so ever, (since as per the administrative officials in Faizabad, OF THE 26 MOSQUES IN AYODHYA REGION JUST HALF ARE IN USE FOR OFFERING NAMAZ and the rest are in a bad shape), hence this is not an unreasonable request. If that is not acceptable, then this nonfunctional mosque should be relocated. Hundreds of mosques in other Islamic countries have been relocated for minor reasons such as road expansion. So there is ample precedent for it. Since the location of Ram Janma cannot be changed the temple cannot be moved. If the superstructure is important to the Muslims then it can be relocated to another site, the way Abu Simbel temple in Egypt was moved out of the way of the Aswan Dam. Hindus will bear all the relocation expenses. India has demonstrated technology for this operation since recently 800 year old Kudavelli Sangameshwara temple in Andhra Pradesh was taken apart and rebuilt 600 meters from the original site. Some Shia leaders had agreed to the latter plan. However to the prominent Muslim leadership (BMCC and BMAC) all such proposals were futile. The biggest concession they were willing to make was to allow a Ram temple next to the Babri structure (meaning the sign of Muslim conquest will continue to look down upon the temple, as an insult to Hindus). The events of December 6, 1992 should be viewed in light of these facts. You are encouraged to read more and find out for yourself the truth behind the Ayodhya issue. |
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Hindu 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 55 of 381 ) References : 1. Ram Janmabhoomi Vs Babri Masjid -by K. Elst, Voice of India Publ, 1990, 173pp 2. Ayodhya & After -by K. Elst, Voice of India Publ, 1991, 419 pp 3. VHP's evidence on Ram Janmabhoomi, 6 th January 1991 4. Vivek, Special Ayodhya issue 1993 5. Ram Janma Bhoomi - New Archeological Evidence, by Y.D. Sharma et al published by Historians' Forum, New Delhi, 1992 6. Ayodhya - Dec.6, 1992, Destruction of Babri structure - Who? What? Why? A Video (report) by Jain Studios, New Delhi. 7. Legal Aspects of RJB/ BM issue - by Justice Deoki Nandan. |
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Hindu 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 56 of 381 ) The truth at last triumphed and the Government's very own white paper did not dare call it a "mosque" on any of its 122 pages. All along it had been termed either as a "disputed structure" or a "shrine" or the "RJB-BM Complex" etc. etc. Secondly, even if it was a mosque till December 22, 1949, it ceased to be a mosque after the expiry of six years from the day of the alleged adverse possesion specially after the dismissal of the appeal by the High Court in 1955. (While limitation period for individual rights is 12 years, the same for corporate bodies and orgainizations like the Sunni Waqf Board is only six years). The law has already been laid down on this very point as far back as 1938. In a case where a mosque was adversely possesed by Hindus for a period of 12 years, the Muslims had filed a case as beneficiaries of the Mosque (having a right to pray therein) for its restoration. A Full Bench of the Lahore High Court (reported in AIR 1938, Lahore 369, and Indian Cases 945) had laid down as follows: "When a mosque is adversely possesed by non-Muslim, that is to say Hindus, the Muslims lose all the right in the land and the buliding, including the right to worship. The building cannot maintain the character of a mosque, and no duty is cast upon the persons in possesion thereof to maintain its original character or to maintain it even as a buliding. All the rights of the Muslims being thus extinguished, including the right to pray, the persons in possesion commit no wrong, much less a continuing wrong, by not permitting, or refusing the right of the Muslims to pray therein. A suit instituted by a Muslim as a beneficiary for the excercise of his right to pray at a mosque is suit for the enforcement of an individual right and is not covered by the provisions of Order-1, Rule-8 of the Code of Criminal Procedure." This judgement of the Lahore High Court was appealed against and the Privy Council, while confirming the judgement, added: "There is no analogy between possesion in law of a building dedicated as a place of prayer for Muslims and the individual deities of the Hindus. The land and building of a mosque is ordinary property and not a jurist person. A suit could not be brought by or against a mosque in its name. this right of a Muslim worshipper at a particular mosque may be regarder as an individual right. It is not a sort of easement in gross, but an element in the general right of a beneficiary to have the Waqf property recovered by it proper custodians and applied to its purpose. Such an individual may, if he sues in time procure the ejectectment of a trespasser and have the property delivered to the Muttawalli for the purpose of the Waqf. But if the title conferred by the settler has come to an end by reason that for the statutory period no one has sued to eject a person possessing adversely to the Waqf, the rights of all the beneficiaries are gone, the land or the place cannont be recovered by or for the Muttawalli and the endowment, or its terms can no longer be reenforced. The individual character of the right to go to a mosque for worship matters nothing when the place is no longer a Waqf and the right is no gorund for holding that a person born long after the property has become irrecoverable can enforece the ancient dedication, if any, or any part of it. The right of worshippers at a mosque stand or fall with the character of the property being Waqf and do not continue apart from their right to have the property recovered for the Waqf and applied to its purpose. As the law stands, notice of rights of individual beneficieries does not modify the effect under the Limitation Act, of posession adverse to Waqf." |
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Hindu 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 57 of 381 ) AYODHYA: A HISTORICAL WATERSHED By Giri Lal Jain Following is the final chapter of Late Mr. Giri Lal Jain's (veteran journalist) book, "The Hindu Phenomenon". AYODHYA: A HISTORICAL WATERSHED 1992 will doubtless go down in Indian history as the year of Ayodhya. This is so not so much because recent events there have pushed into background all the other issues such as economic reforms and reservations for the 'other backward castes' as because they have released forces which will have a decisive influence in shaping the future of India. These forces are not new; they have been at work for two centuries. Indeed, they were not even wholly bottled up. But they had not been unleashed earlier as they have been now. It is tryly extraordinary that the demolition of a nondescript structure by faceless men no organization owns up should have shaken so vast a country as India. But no one can possibly deny that it has. These forces in themselves are not destructive even if they have led to some violence and blood-letting. They are essen-tially beneficent. They shall seek to heal the splits in the Indian personality so that it is restored to health and vigour. Implicit in the above is the proposition that while India did not cease to be India either under Muslim or British rule despite all the trials and tribulations, she was not fully Mother India. And she was not fully Mother India not because she was called upon to digest external inputs, which is her nature to assimilate, but because she was not free to throw out what she could not possibly digest in the normal and natural course. this lack of freedom to reject what cannot be assimilated is the essence of foreign conquest and rule. The meaning of Ayodhya is that India has regained, to a larger extent than hitherto, the capacity to behave and act as a normal living organism. She has taken another big step towards self-affirmation. All truth, as Lenin said, is partisan. So is mine. I do not pretend to be above the battle, or, to rephrase Pt. Nehru, I am not neutral against myself. But partisan truth is not demagogy and patently false propaganda, which is what advocates of 'composite culture' have engaged in. Two points need to be noted in this regard. First, no living culture is ever wholy autonomous; for no culture is an airtight sealed box; Indian culture, in particular, has been known for its catholocity and willingness to give as well as take. It withdrew into a shell when it felt gravely threatened and became rigid; but that is under- standable; indeed, the surprise, if any, is that Indian culture survived the Islamic and Western onslaught at all. Secondly, a culture, if it is not swallowed up by an incoming one, whether by way of proselytization or conquest or both, as the Egyptians and Iranians were by Islam, or if it is not destroyed as the Aztec was by the Portuguese and Spaniards, must seek to recover; even Indians in Latin America have not given up the effort. Surely, since no one can possibly suggest that Indian culture was either swallowed up or destroyed; it is only natural that it should seek to recover its genuine self. Surely, this is neither an anti-Islamic nor anti-Western activity. |
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Hindu 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 58 of 381 ) Pt. Nehru almost never used the phrase 'composite culture'. His was a more organic view of culture and civilization. He believed in, and spoke of, cultural synthesis which, if at all, could take place only within the old civilizational framework since Islam did not fianlly triumph. Pt. Nehru also wrote and spoke of the spirit of India asserting itself again and again. Surely, that spirit could not be a composite affair. In the Maulana Azad memorail lecture he also spoke of different cultures being products of different environments and he specifically contrasted tropical India with the deserts of Arabia. He even said that a Hindu-Muslim culture synthesis had not been completed when other factors intervened. Apparantly he was referring to the British Raj. This should also dispell the impression that the Nehru era was a continuation of alien rule intended to frustrate the process of Indianization of India. This charge is not limited to his detractors. It is made by his admirers as well, though, of course, indirectly and unknowingly. They pit secularism against Hinduism which is plainly absurd. Hindus do not need the imported concept of secularism in order to be able to show respect towards other faiths. That comes naturally to them. For theirs is an inclusive faith which provides for every form of religious experience and belief; there can be no heresy or kufr in Hinduism. For Nehru, secularism, both as a personal philosophy and state policy, was an expression of India's cultural-civilizational personality and not its negation and repudiation. Secularism suited India's requirements as he saw them. For instance, it provided an additional legitimizing principle for reform movements among Hindus beginning with the Brahmo Samaj in the early part of the nineteenth century. It met the aspirations of the Westernized and modernizing intelligentsia. Before independence, it denied legitimacy to Muslim separatism in the eyes of Hindus, Westernized or traditionalist. If it did not help forge an instrument capable of resisting effectively the Muslim League's demand for partition, the alternative platform of men such as Veer Savarkar did not avail either. After partition, it served the same purpose of denying legitimacy to moves to consolidate Muslims as a separate communalist political force. Pt. Nehru's emphasis on secularism has to be viewed not only in relation to the Muslim problem which survived partition, but it has also to be seen in the context of his plea for science and India's need to get rid of the heavy and deadening burden of rituals and superstitions, products of periods of grave weakness and hostile environment when nothing nobler than survival was possible. Seen in this perspective, the ideologies of socialism and secularism have served as mine sweepers. They have cleared the field of dead conventions sufficiently to make it possible for new builders to move in. Sheikh Abdullah exaggerated when he charged Pt. Nehru with Machiavellian- ism, but he was not too wide off the mark when he wrote in Aatish-e-Chinar that Nehru was "a great admirer of the past heritage and the Hindu spirit of India.. He considered himself as an instrument of rebuilding India with its ancient spirit". |
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Hindu 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 59 of 381 ) The trouble is that self-styled Nehruites and other secularists are not able to recognize that India is no longer the convalescent she was not only when Gandhiji launched his first mass movement but also when she achieved independence with Pt. Nehru as the first prime minister. The two leaders have helped nurse her back to health as have their critics in different ways. That is the implication of my observation that the energies now unleashed have been at work for two centuries. Only on a superficial view, resulting from a lack of appreciation of the history of modern India, beginning with Raja Rammohan Roy in the early 19th century, can the rise of Ramjanakbhoomi issue to its present prominence be said to be the result of a series of 'accidents': the sudden appearance of the Ramlalla idol in the structure in 1949 and the opening of the gate under the Faizabad magistrate's orders in 1986 being the most important. As in all such cases, these developments have helped bring out and reinforce something that was already growing - the 200-year-old movement for self- renewal and self-affirmation by Hindus. If this was not so, the 'accidents' in question would have petered out. Similarly, while it cannot be denied that the RSS, the VHP, and the BJP have played a major role in mobilizing support for the cause of the temple, it should also be noted that they could not have achieved the success they have if the general atmosphere was not propitious and the time not ripe. Indeed, not to speak of Gandhiji who aroused and mobilized Hindus as no one had before him, fought the Christian missionary assault and successfully resisted the British imperialist designs to divide harijans from Hindu society, it would be unfair to deny Nehru's and Indira Gandhi's contribu- tions to the Hindu resurgence that we witness today. A civilizational revival, it may be pointed out, is a gradual, complex, and many-sided affair. Again, only on the basis of a superficial view is it possible to see developments in India in isolation from developments in the larger world. Nehru's worldview, for instance, was deeply influenced by the socialist theories sweeping Europe in the wake of the First WW and the Soviet revolution in 1917. By the same token, this worldview, which has dominated our thinking for well over six decades, could not but become irrelevant in view of the collapse of communist regimes in eastern Europe, and the disarray in the Soviet Union itself. This cannot be seriously disputed even on rational grounds. Intensification of the search for identity in India today is part of a similar development all over the world, especially in view of the collapse of communist 'universalism'. But if it is a mere coincidence that Ramjanabhoomi issue has gathered support precisely in this period of the disintegration of Soviet power abroad and the decline of the Nehruvian consensus at home, it is an interesting one. At the conscious level, the BJP, among political formations, has chosen to be an instrument of India's cultural and civilizational recovery and reaffirmation. As such, it is natural that it will figure prominently in the reshaping of India in the coming years and decades. But others too will play their parts in the gigantic enterprise. VP Singh, for instance, has already rendered yeoman service to the cause by undermining the social coalition which has dominated the country's politics for most of the period since independence. |
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Hindu 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 60 of 381 ) When a master idea seizes the mind, as socialism did in the twenties, and as Hindutva has done now, it must usher in radical change. In the twenties and the decades that followed before and after independence, conservative forces were not strong enough to resist the socialist idea. Similarly, conservative forces are not strong enough today to defeat the Hindutva ideal. There is a difference, though, for a while the socialist ideal related primarily to economic reorganization and was elitist in its approach by virtue of being a Western import, Hindutva seeks, above all, to unleash the energies of a whole people which foreign rule froze or drove underground. When a historic change of this magnitude takes place, intellectual confusion is generally unavoidable. The human mind, as a rule, trails behind events; it is not capable of anticipating them. But it should be possible to cut through the mass of confusion and get to the heart of the matter. The heart of the matter is that if India's vast spiritual (psychic in modern parlance) energies, largely dormant for centuries, had to be tapped, Hindus had to be aroused; they could be aroused only by the use of a powerful symbol; that symbol could only be Ram, as was evident in the twenties when the Mahatma moved millions by his talk of Ramrajya; once the symbol takes hold of the popular mind, as Ram did in the twenties and as it has done now, opposition to it generally adds to its appeal. An element of subjectivity and voluntarism, typical of a modern Western- ized mind, has got introduced in the previous paragraph because that is the way I also think. In reality, the time spirit (Mahakala) unfolds itself under its own auspices, at its own momentum, as it were; we can either cooperate with it, or resist it at our peril. Historians can continue to debate whether a temple, in fact, existed at the site of Babri Masjid in Ayodhya; whether it was , in fact, a Ram temple; whether it was destroyed; or whether it had collapsed on its own. Similarly, moralists and secularists can go on arguing that it is not right to replace one place of worship by another, especially as long as the foregoing issues have not been resolved. But this is not how history moves and civilizational issues are settled. Pertinent is the fact that for no other site have Hindus fought so bitterly for so long with such steadfastness as over Ramjanambhoomi in Ayodhya. There is no rational explanation for this and it is futile to look for one. All that is open to us is to grasp the fact and power of the mystery. In all cultures and societies under great stress flows an invisible undercurrent. It does not always break surface. But when it does, it transforms the scene. This is how events in Ayodhya should be seen. The Patal Ganga, of which all Indians must have heard, has broken surface there. Human beings have doubtless played a part in this surfacing. But witness the remarkable fact that we do not know and, in fact, do not care who installed the Ramlalla idol in the Babri structure and who demolished the structure on 6 December 1992. While almost everyone else is looking for scapegoats, to me it seems that every known actor is playing his or her allotted role in the vast drama that is being enacted. We are, as it were, witnessing the enactment of a modern version of Valmiki's Ramayana. (by Late Shri Giri Lal Jain) |
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Hindu 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 61 of 381 ) The best strategy for long-lasting peace, economic growth and the strong defense of south Asia is the reunification of countries in the subcontinent |
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rav666 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 62 of 381 ) I hope you are joking |
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MonicaBL 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 63 of 381 ) Joking? Difficult. This is the crowd that seriously claims that Taj Mahal was a Hindu Temple Qutub Minar was a Hindu Temple Vatican being Veda-Vatika Rome as Ram-nagar Dutch being the language of the Daityas England was Anghulistan |
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Azza 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 64 of 381 ) I am relatively new to this discussion and the forum but its really sad to read all that has been written by the patrons of this magazine. Though there have been some cool heads but overall the views have been entirely extremist. Its really saddening to see.I recall the days when my friends and I used to think about the future as a world full of hope and promise.We still do. But a feeling of aprehension has started to creep in, a feeling of doubt that whether we will be able to stand together and face the real problems that our country faces. When are we going to see a new generation of politicians coming up ,who would entirely be a product of our times , who would not think on terms of the India Pakistan divide,would not think of the English, and above all would not have the hangover of slavery on his head. India belongs to the younger generations. Not the generations of the bygone era.Let's vow to rise above this bickering and work for the betterment of the society. To be truthful, I had never heard about the Rammandir until I was 18 years old, and that too when this issue was raised. It was the same with all my friends.Was it necessary? Wasnt our lives going on smoothly before that? India was still a counrty. We were still working to solve our problems. We were still intact as a country.There was no threat to our culture.There wasn't a mass conversion of Hindus to Islam and Muslims to Hinduism going on. Our beloved country still is regarded as underdeveloped.Does building a mosque or a temple change the country to a developed one? We still have the majority of population living under the poverty line. Will the construction of a temple or a mosque give them that daily bread and propsperity overnight? We dont have decent roads all over the counrty. Will building a mosque or a temple enable the roads to arise from nowhere? We still have women being exploited , within and outside marriage. Will the building of a mosque or a temple change that overnight? We still have a high rate of crime. Will the building of trhe temple or a mosque convert them to saints overnight? These are some of the very few problems that we face. And above all AIDS is "the" biggest therat to our country.Will the building of a temple or a mosque enable doctors to come up with a cure for it overnight? If your answer to all these problems is "YES" then we have the need for a civil war. If your answer to them is "NO" then lets move on with our lives and let us all contribute that little which can make a difference to our country. |
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marshall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 65 of 381 ) Come on, come on Mr. Vajpayee you are the Prime Minister of India . Not that of the saffron brigade. Stop behaving like the Prime Minister of the saffron brigade.Please do not confuse the sentiment of the saffron brigade with that of the nation which includes others also. |
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Aslam 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 66 of 381 ) Marhsall, I couldn't agree with you more. You have said it! Azza's is the sanest voice heard here in ages. Well Spoken! |
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nashraf 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 67 of 381 ) In 1992 , what happened is eye opener for Muslims. Pl. let them do, what they can ? Ram Mandir will solve all problems of Hindu Rashtra. |
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malhar 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 68 of 381 ) anyway there were no prayers offered at the disputed structure for the last so many years before the demolition. so to correct a historic blunder, to respect the feelings of millions of people if a abandoned structure is pulled down there shouldn't be a hue and cry about it |
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subrat 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 69 of 381 ) i wish every one in this country thought the way azza does... but, unfortunately time has changed for the worse...and imagine how prophetic W B Yeats was that he wrote more than half a century back and how appropriate it is to describe our time today (more so in India)that: ...Things fall apart, The centre cannot hold, Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world, The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, And everywhere the ceremony of inocence is drowned, 'The best lack all conviction while the worst are full of passionate intensity...' |
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Tathagat 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 70 of 381 ) appa DeepO bhava ... i think women... being more organized n pragmatic... would be in power in about 20- 30 years... Ram than would not be a hero, but a zero... why only his babe had to go through the test... what if he had an affair with chabri, the monkey babe or an gay encounter with another baboon... and if walking through fire wasn't enuff our maryada purshottam threw her into jungle... a pregnant legally wedded babe... n if it wasn't compassionate of Lakhan that he abondoned her in an ashram... the idea was to feed her to the wild animals... the guy should be punished as a matter of fact... ain't it criminal guys...? n u shouldn't be making a temple for an effing criminal... god is a lie... so a mosque is irrelavent too... make a huge toilet instead... since these mallichs do not have places to urinate... ;) ha ha ha! an earlier comment to N. Ram ...:) the last paragraph is certainly not factual, The fact is that Sita was made to go through fire to prove her innocence, purity :), or whatever since she was abducted, why not Ram :) he lived with so many monkeys. If this was not enough she was thrown in to the Jungle just b'coz a washerman said he is not that Ram that he could be so accommodating, here both seems to outsmart each other :) in the confirmation of male chauvinism. The women n the children are the eventual sufferer out of these conflicts not just the wars. So Sita was thrown awayin the jungle with twin boys inside her womb. This world is a strange world, women got right to vote in Switzerland in early seventies and till late eighties in UK it wasn't considered necessary for the husband to obtain the consent of the wife before sex, since she married the guy it was mandatory for a wife to provide all it takes... a few pleas of rape were not considered valid by the Courts till 1989 when Courts begun to rule it as rape. Strangely enough it is quite contrary that, this newspaper group is called the Hindu and Its Star Chief is Mr. Ram. Neither u sound like a Hindu nor Mr. Ram appears as ruthless as the Ram, the Maryada Purshottam. (The name of Shri Ram: Maryada Purshottom, the epitome of right thinking and right action, relentless warrior in the cause of justice, inspires devotion and piety in the hearts of Hindus. The misfortune is that the invocation of the name by the San gh Parivar equally inspires frenzy on the one hand and fear on the other. This is perhaps the greatest tragedy of Ayodhya.)... dated June 24, 2000. |
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Jaat 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 71 of 381 ) Agreed that we are a civilized society.. and whole India read the news "Imam Bukhari offers to save Buddhaas of Afganistaan on One condition : Babri should be recostruced first.." nobody commented.. secular people though he is right and we did a big mistake by razing that structure down.. In absolute terms(seculars understands only that), demolishing that was an act of bringing the spirit back "in chalta hai" youth of this country.and it was necessary to let everyone understand that indifference and Ahinsa are the concepts of those "who wants to pass a good time here and die, no matter what". Looking at the world order where, the existence of this whole civilization that has seen masses massacred by invaders.. heart and body broken and has lived giving "jajiya".. and seen their daughter lifted by local nawabs.. this was certainly a confidence booster.. and this one thing made a hue and cry and thousands of these acts done before and after.. how many islamic organizations felt sorry for those.. and for budhhas.. and why not.. that structure was of no significance to Islamic population.. it was one of millions for them.. but that is one place .. the first of 700 million in this county..had people been really secular, they could have tried to understand the sentiments of millions.. But secularity means.. bashing the majority.. and this secularity and sociallism, lives always on alms.. not on earnings.. and the survival is always of the fittest, not the rightest.. |
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sherano 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 72 of 381 ) lets say the indian muslims give up Ayodhya, will it be the end bloodshed or will it be the beginning of a vast demolition program like the Talibans ? |
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sherano 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 73 of 381 ) lets say the indian muslims give up Ayodhya, will it be the end bloodshed or will it be the beginning of a vast demolition program like the Talibans ? |
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mohammam 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 74 of 381 ) i guess this is democratic country and every one has his option to perform what he wants to do. secondly this BJP people corroupt people, on one hand they are saying that we are having faith in our constitution and other hand, they are using there influence on legal procedure, every one knows that that advani, uma bharti, murlimanohar joshi, etc people were there for demolision of babri masjid, and for eight years, they were free, and at last as usual this is our politician, they are free from court, and the court as usual they dont have enough evidence, another thing they says that we are working for the truth, there truth always seems work against muslim, why this people did not find enough evidance agianst, kapil, sidhu, ravi shashtri, and what about gavaskar's locker, but as usual this is our india they will find enough evidence against azhar. in case of azhar this people says that tehelka had done a good job, and now in this case they are saying this tehelka people are wronge, after all this i would say, wah re dunia, and wah re BJP. |
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Tathagat 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 75 of 381 ) appa DeepO bhava Bachcha bola dekh kar, masjid aalishaan Allaa tere ik ko, itna baRa makaan Andar moorat pe chaRhey ghee, poori, mishThaan Mandir ke baahar khaRaa, ishwar maangey daan Jaadoo-Tona roz ka, bachchoN ka vyavhaar chchoTi se ik gaind meiN, bhar de sab sansaar chchoTaa kar ke dekhye, jeevan ka vistaar AankhoN bhar aakaash hey, bahoN bhar sansaar. Nida faazli, is he a poet? or is he a rishi? a sufi? |
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msvirick 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 76 of 381 ) Really Ayodhyia should be now made into a park, where all children could play, both Hindus and Muslims. Hatred has no end but destruction of human soul itself |
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ulab 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 77 of 381 ) Demolition of babri masjid was never an expression of national sentiment.Before the demolition every party used the Babri/Ayodhya(should be writing Ayodhay/Babri lest the supporters of "hindutva" might get annoyed)card to garner votes of the hindu majority. But things took a curious turn when when it was rediscovered by advani during the rath yatra.So much so for him being a so called "bold leader" he could not even control the mob from destroying the structure.Such is the plight of this bold leader that he can neither take the responsibility for the act nor denounce it!.He took the responsibility then to get votes but denounces it now afraid of being convicted so much so for being the "modern iron man of India". Its not long before that people |
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ulab 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 78 of 381 ) Continued From Above of the country will realise that the so called hindutva forces are trying to create hindu vote banks, by diverting the attention of people from genuine problems like employment,basic education and shelter. My opinion is that once India was declared to be secular, we have no right to ask, cajole or force the minorities to saffronise their beliefs.If 1000 years ago they had converted to a different faith it was because of the short comings of our own religion, which was being misrepresented and misinterpreted by so many people form time to time to serve their own personal purposes. How could I, as an hindu criticize the taliban for destroying the bamiyan Buddha.I completely agree with msvirick"s suggestion of what to do with the disputed site. |
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ulab 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 79 of 381 ) Continued From Above Bala Krsna Melbourne |
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ulab 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 80 of 381 ) Demolition of babri masjid was never an expression of national sentiment.Before the demolition every party used the Babri/Ayodhya(should be writing Ayodhay/Babri lest the supporters of "hindutva" might get annoyed)card to garner votes of the hindu majority. But things took a curious turn when when it was rediscovered by advani during the rath yatra.So much so for him being a so called "bold leader" he could not even control the mob from destroying the structure.Such is the plight of this bold leader that he can neither take the responsibility for the act nor denounce it!.He took the responsibility then to get votes but denounces it now afraid of being convicted so much so for being the "modern iron man of India". Its not long before that people |
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ulab 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 81 of 381 ) Continued From Above of the country will realise that the so called hindutva forces are trying to create hindu vote banks, by diverting the attention of people from genuine problems like employment,basic education and shelter. My opinion is that once India was declared to be secular, we have no right to ask, cajole or force the minorities to saffronise their beliefs.If 1000 years ago they had converted to a different faith it was because of the short comings of our own religion, which was being misrepresented and misinterpreted by so many people form time to time to serve their own personal purposes. How could I, as an hindu criticize the taliban for destroying the bamiyan Buddha if my own religion could not protect a place of worship in a secular country like India .I completely agree with msvirick"s suggestion of what to do with the disputed site. |
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Tathagat 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 82 of 381 ) appa DeepO bhava "There might be differences between us, but we will not allow this government to fall", Thackeray reiterated. (PTI) Legit Ghati Dawood spoketh... what option u have... this govt., is gone n Maharashtra Govt., will implement Krishna Commission Report n put u behind bars... ummmn very good Navlakha of Citizen Tribunal on Ayodhia n Yechury are brilliant here on NDTV News Hour)... anything lessor than a rebuilding of a mosque with repentence in kar sewak's hearts... or even the delay would mean an encroachment... u say u counldn't control!?! lier... u r the one n ur co., responsible for it... n not just the effing demolition but all the loss of lves... thousands died... 900 in Bomaby... let there be accountability... book them n put them behind bar... that is where these baboon belong. ... Advani, the legit Veerappan... n the baaner sena, n qaanooni gHuunDa of Bombay u won't git away with it... as far as civil war is concern... I doubt u know the meaning of it... this just to mislead the jaahils... divirting attention... ha. Most depressing day of me life... dhoort u r... aankhoN meiN dhool jhonk rahey ho... ye sab jaahil samajhdaar samajhtey heiN... insulting their intelligence... they also know that u r responsible for it... every effing judge in the land knows that... The whole effing party was responsible for it... what was election commission doing... if EC or the constitution is not empowered than founding baboon effing fathers missed on that... how could a guy responsible for so much trouble in the long run... could be responsible for 1000 million security n destinies.. the guy should be behind bar... n must rot there n die... ASAP. |
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VJay 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 83 of 381 ) Our problems will be over when we kick out the muslim traitors/parasites from India. They can always go to Pak or banla land.That is what those countries are meant for. The majority of muslims in India were the ones who voted to have Pakistan in the first place, why didn't they leave? They are here to exploit the economic benefits of India while they outnumber and destroy the Hindus. One day they will be more than us and they will dominate and persecute Hindus. They have already done that in pakistan, bangla land and already many of these muslims are migrating into India today. The Hindu population is declining due to education, while the muslims are increasing due to procreation. They are fanatics who refuse to have small families. If a Hindu converts to Islam, no problem, But if a muslim does (on those very rare occasions) he will be lynched. To those muslims who claim to be loyal to India, I suggest you go back to your roots and rediscover Hinduism. After all, your ancestors converted just to avoid heavier taxes or persecution from arab invaders. Islam is an alien religion that has no place in India. And you have to look at the last 1000 years to see the persecution Hindus have suffered, not to mention in Kashmir today. To quote M.K gandhi: I will have all the windows in my house open and not closed, but I refuse to be swooped off my feet. If we wish to be really secular, then we should ban this sharia court system, and have a univeral secular law for all religions in India. Why should we allow them to multiply like ants and have 4 wives, ruining the economy and stability of the country? They are the ones who always create trouble in the country at the slightest hint. Point being: Who is going to protect Hindu (native Indian) rights? All the temples hav been destroyed, the women raped and the many dead to protect us. It is our right to keep what is most sacred to Hindus. The majority does not take orders from treachourous/ignorant minorities who hate and disrespct Hindus and serve only their foreign masters (the arabs/pakis). |
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VJay 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 84 of 381 ) India belongs to Hindus and the minorities should realize that they will be tolerated, but there is a certain limit of how much we can tolerate. Why are muslims mullahs bein payed by the overnment and not Hindu priests? This is not mughal India. |
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aamer 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 85 of 381 ) i dont know who this person VJay is but one thing can be said about him that he belongs to the majority community but suffers with a minority complex. those people who went to pakistan or voted to go to pakistan are no were related to us we were born in free india and this country belongs to us verymuch the way it belongs to you. a person dosent becomes a muslim just because he is born to muslim parents he has to understand the ethius of the religion and practise it, in the same way a person dosent become a indian if you are born as a hindu. you are asking the proof from an indian muslim for being a indian, do you as a hindu has any proof of being a staunch indian. the feeling of being patriotic comes from thinking about the welbein of the fellow citizens and not thinking about their elemination. |
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rc67 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 86 of 381 ) I have been going through some of your thoughts. I would like to share some of mine. The present range is wide and diversified. It ranges from the sane ones to the verge of insane ones. While the sane thoughts gives us hope, the ones filled with hatred and venom pains us and casts doubt on our ability to stay together as a nation. Regardless of what Mr. (I refuse to address him by the title conferred to him by our ex-Colonial Masters) Naipul or for that matter what Mr. Vajpayee said, we as the citizens of India have to understand what were the ulterior motives in demolishing the mosque (I will call it mosque because I have seen it as a mosque ever since I was born). Historically speaking, we who call ourselves Hindu, are the followers of Vedas. I hope no one will dispute that. After all, who were the proponents of Vedas? I think, history (written) tells us that it was the Aryans who have assimilated thousand of years’ of knowledge through practices and put them in what we call today Vedas. I am confident that all of us will agree that Aryans had actually migrated from Central Asia (approximately from where the Taimoor or Ghengis Khan had come). No doubt we had come thousands of years before the first Muslim came to India. Over the years, we have not only upsurped the land of the indigenous people of India (whom history records as Dravidians), we had also upsurped their gods and godesses, (Please note that all Vedic Gods are males and there is no female Vedic God), their way of life, even wherever needed their local custom. The case of our conversion is so complete that Bali the mighty king, who was a Dravidian, and who had was sent to Patala by Vishnu by subjugation, his descendants, the people of Kerala, speak a language that is full of Sanskrit words. So when we call the Muslims or Christians alien, it is a typical case of a person who have boarded the bus resents the later passengers whom he sees as encroachers. Is it not? Do we (Hindus) have the moral authority to do so? Why Ayodhya? From mid eighties, India has been witnessing some interesting socio-political happenings. The upper caste Hindus, who have been ruling the country since independence, (from Neheru to Vajpayee, except all put together not more than 4 years, all our PMs have either been of Brahmin origin) found that the majority of the Hindus, who are Dalits, have stated asserting for their rights. Thus there was a crisis. No longer an upper caste Hindu representative command the same authority over his Dalit constituents. So there was a necessity to rally them under a banner, that suppresses these aspirations. Who could have done this better than Lord Ram! Hence Ayodhya. |
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One 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 87 of 381 ) One of the misunderstandings among many Indians (mainly Hindus - I am not trying to be pro-muslims)is that the Muslims and the Christians of today's India are aliens who came from other parts of the world -- Muslims from the western Asia and the Christians from the European countries. The truth is that these Muslims and Christians are none other than the early Hindus who converted. Since many Indians dont know this and think the Muslims and Christians people as aliens feel that they have the authority over them. They also feel that Muslims and Christians should not be allowed to live in India. Unfortunately this kind of thinking is what results in religious riots. |
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thetruth 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 88 of 381 ) they are not allowing hindus to build a temple in ayodhya and showing their true charecters . our pseudo-secularists believe they should respect only muslim sentiments . these people prove their secular credential ( pseudo-secularism ) by condemning SALMAN RUSHDIE and praising MF Hussain . Salman Rushdie did nothing to insult ISLAM, but MF HUssain insulted hindu sentiments beyond limit by painting hindu gods/goddesses naked . i dare MF HUSSAIN to paint prophet MOHAMMED naked and want to see the reactions from pseudo-seculars and tolerant muslims . muslims should not oppose bulding a temple there . they shouldn't invade other people's religious places . what will be their reaction if ISRAEL or USA forcibly occupy Mecca ? |
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ap 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 89 of 381 ) Democracy is the rule of majority Every citizen is equal under one set of laws regardless of caste , ethinicity , religion etc.. Free thinking , disciplined actions , and hard work are what brings better life for all. |
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whoami 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 90 of 381 ) poor thought (Vjay) and a befitting reply(aamer)..India belongs to everyone who is born and brought up in india.. whoever has an indian fervour in him has a right in india..if the muslims werent there in india, u wouldnt have got a Abdul Kalam,Zakir hussain .. not many come to my memory now..they have toiled for this nation as good as any hindu... they have equal rights in india as anybody else has.. Lord rama would be a satisfied man if he sees a Peaceful and coexisting tolerant india than to see a temple in his name(that has cost thousands of lives and crores of rupees in the form of bombblasts) |
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rohit 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 91 of 381 ) Ayodhya is a thing of the past. We live in the present. Y rake up an issue of no significance to us at present? hindus or muslims belonging to India or not is a non issue. We r all Indians. Recognise that the successful personalities - Narayana murthy, Abdul kalam, Premji, UR Rao and scores of others donot think communal! they think in terms of commitment, passion, hardwork and values and keep their religion to themselves. |
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Franco 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 92 of 381 ) 1.Who started the riots during Partition? Muslims! 2. Who started the persecution and extiction of Buddhists in India? Muslims! 3. Who started the riots in England? Muslims! 4. How many Hindus have been killed by muslims? Millions! 4. Which group are mainly responsible for the growing population? Muslims! 5. Are there any Hindus left in Pakistan? No! 6. Are there any HIndus left in Kashmir? No! 7. Are there any Hindus left in Bangladesh? They're all fleeing! 8. Has any Muslim gotten away with insulting Hindu relgion? Yes! 9. Any Hindu who's gotten away with insulting Islam? He'd be lynched! 10. How man temples have muslims destroyed for the last 1000 years? Thousands! And no response! 11. How many mosques built on sacred grounds have Hindus destroyed in the last 1000 years? 1! And the it's a national calamity! 12. Bottom line, the wrost of the worst Hindu is far better than any so called good muslim. Finish those traitors/bloodsuckers off and we'll solve at least half our population problem. You so called "secularists" make me sick! You deserve to die along with them. It's people like you who've destroyed the country. Jai Hind! |
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critter 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 93 of 381 ) while commenting you should have the to think that 70% of the indians stay in villagers. they have better value for religion them we who stay in cities. so there is importance for the religion sites to prosper but as the reports earlier came out muslims had aggreed to allow to build the temple at that position, it is the dirty congress interest in muslim vote bank situation is like this, first remove congress and all the parties which depend on muslim vote bank from the face of india every thing will be OK |
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sss 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 94 of 381 ) One god.Two names ram.allah(all religion say).So no controversy should be there.But right lot of evil muslims also there,but evil hindu also.So kill muslim who kills a human.But a muslim who kills hindu,will also kill muslim for money,property,women,jealousy,ego in same riots(more profits).And dangerous humans who can kill innocent people in name of religion,wars for no reason can kill God in human form,God knows that,so why he makes them , a trade secret).But what does a house of god do with riots.Similarly,kill evil hindus.Good people cannot riot,play politics ,but get looted in riots (by every religion people).In peace they get looted by silent riots by evil people(every religion).But maybe God likes this politics/rioting in religion/life,for he creates evil and gives them power to fool people and watches silently.And no saint,human is a God.But God is unpredictable.Why will he like dangerous religious people who can even sell God in human form and fool people in his name and make inncoent people lose faith in him?People doing riots,will also kill God in human form for he is regarded as good(or maybe they kill him for power he is very rich). Try and see in future.But read your religion books. Okay,why do people commiting riots(hindu/muslim/sikh) not kill other religion Gods.Kill him and their God will not make their religion/people.Only your religion will stay.Kill God who creates people of other religions.DOES ANY HUMAN HAVE COURAGE AND POWER TO DO THAT? For it is God who has created so many religions,cultures,people why? Even I donot know that.But evil cowards stab at back,kill weak,innocent and their strength is that they donot belive in God and goodness.Evil is sweet to people in power.They think evil is unpunished.If God creates one religion,same type of people no fight. So problem is creator of hindus,muslims not hindu/muslim. Tough opponent. |
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One 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 95 of 381 ) One of the misunderstandings among many Indians (mainly Hindus - I am not trying to be pro-muslims)is that the Muslims and the Christians of today's India are aliens who came from other parts of the world -- Muslims from the western Asia and the Christians from the European countries. The truth is that these Muslims and Christians are none other than the early Hindus who converted. Since many Indians dont know this and think the Muslims and Christians people as aliens feel that they have the authority over them. They also feel that Muslims and Christians should not be allowed to live in India. Unfortunately this kind of thinking is what results in religious riots. |
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One 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 96 of 381 ) Someone has earlier said. I enjoyed it very much.Let me share. Joking? Difficult. This is the crowd that seriously claims that Taj Mahal was a Hindu Temple Qutub Minar was a Hindu Temple Vatican being Veda-Vatika Rome as Ram-nagar Dutch being the language of the Daityas England was Anghulistan |
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khan 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 97 of 381 ) Why is it that when we talk about Babri Masjid Vs. Ram Mandir, we come across people talking about extermination of buddhists, partition riots, population growth, kashmir, pakistan etc..... Do they mean to say that by demolishing the Babri Masjid, (when muslims had unanimously assured that they will abide by the supreme court ruling even if the supreme court asked a temple be built on the babri masjid structure) they are trying to make out of two wrongs. Two wrongs never make a right. Having said that: |
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khan 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 98 of 381 ) Let us answer the questions, of a fanatic that posted these questions earlier. This is directed only to the guy who posted this before. And need not be considered as directed against every hindu, because I know there many good hindus. I just want to make a point to the guy that hate brings hate. 1.Who started the riots during Partition? A. Hindus in India, muslims in Pakistan. 2. Who started the persecution and extiction of Buddhists in India? A. Muslims came to India only after the extermination of the buddhists.(Who exterminated them is anybodys guess) 3. Who started the riots in England? A. Desis 4. How many Hindus have been killed by muslims? A. Tell me how many? Let a historian establish there was ever a genocide by muslims, then the whole muslims community will apologise for it. Just by writing on a bulletin borad something, you cannot make it a fact. How many muslims were killed in communal riots after India became independance, if at all anybody is keeping the count. 4. Which group are mainly responsible for the growing population? A. This is something important. True, Muslims grow in India at the rate of 80%, and Hindus grow slowly at the rate of 110%(I mean why don't they grow faster at the rate of 200% so they can become the largest ethnic group soon). 5. Are there any Hindus left in Pakistan? A. I read in the news that there are hindus and sikhs in Pakistan. Although Pakistan was not created as a plural nation. At the time of partition, more than 60% of the muslims stayed back in India because they wanted to live in a plural society in India.(Its a different thing that they are now being persecuted for their very love of India. If the events in India are an indication then the present generation of Indian muslims may soon question the decisions of their grand fathers to choose India rather than Pakistan)Continued.... |
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khan 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 99 of 381 ) 5. Are there any Hindus left in Pakistan? A. I read in the news that there are hindus and sikhs in Pakistan. Although Pakistan was not created as a plural nation. At the time of partition, more than 60% of the muslims stayed back in India because they wanted to live in a plural society in India.(Its a different thing that they are now being persecuted for their very love of India. If the events in India are an indication then the present generation of Indian muslims may soon question the decisions of their grand fathers to choose India rather than Pakistan) 6. Are there any HIndus left in Kashmir? A. Are ther any humans with dignity left in Kashmir. Every family lost their dear ones either to the terrorists or the atrocities of India millitary forces. There are hardly any families who feel their daughters safe in Kashmir, either from the Indian milliary or from the terrorists, or from the state police. 7. Are there any Hindus left in Bangladesh? A. This is news to me. 8. Has any Muslim gotten away with insulting Hindu relgion? A. No way. The muslims could not even get away when a foolish muslim artist merely copied the paintings from Hindu temples. 9. Any Hindu who's gotten away with insulting Islam, without being lynched? A. I am not sure if any karsevak was lynched, after demolishing Babri Masjid, Or if the rioteers were lynched after the Bombay riots, or if Dhara Singh was lynched after he burnt alive Graham Staines, or the next time when he returned to burn alive in the similar way a muslim shop keeper in the village fair. Or if any Bajrang Dal activist was lynched after burning the Holy Quran publicly. The problem is, Bal Thackeray and his likes are not getting anywhere even after insulting Islam and muslims everyday and every night for the past 50 years. They are now actually getting tired of the muslim restraint. 10. How man temples have muslims destroyed for the last 1000 years? Thousands! And no response! A. Why no response, we see response everyday since independance, although no historian is able to substantiate if hindu temples were destroyed any time at all except for a couple at the time of war, in a whole thousand years. And what is happening since the last fifty years????? 11. How many mosques built .... A. How many mosques desecrated, how many mosques destroyed, how many Qurans burnt, how many churches desecrated..., how many dalits killed.... Well, as you see, hate breeds hate. Its time we saw the positive aspects of the plural society in India, and patch up our differences and live happily together the way we lived for a thousand years before the independance. |
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Prem 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 100 of 381 ) Prem Naam Hai Mera, Not Chopra. Dear Khan, I am moved by your effort to have taken the trouble to write an impassioned message -- messages, actually, and maybe in the beginning I might sound like an apologist for Hinduttva-vadis, I hope you'd bear with me, for I have nothing but contempt for them. What is required perhaps is to see the whole thing as sociologists or anthropologists would perhaps: I will try to take your points one by one. 1. On Ayodhya: had there been a unanimous guarantee by the muslims that they would abide by the Supreme Court judgement? I don't thimnk so. The atmosphere was very much vitiated by the socalled "secular" historians who (many Hindus among them) who, in trying to prevent the destruction of the mosque, or otherwise hurting the sensibilities of the minorities are not above (beneatha ctually) fudging al sorts of records. And they did. Perhaps it is time to dig into the records and set them right? But you are right, two wrongs do NOT make a right. They were wrong, the destroyers of Babri, and no matter what (real or perceived) impressons of wrongs by assorted Islamic invaders in the past/Aurangjeb/Pakistan/Jinnah/Muslim League/Taliban/Kashmiri militants/SIMI etc may have done before or after is no justification for the destruction of the Babri masjid. More tomorrow. I am tired, man, and wanna watch TV now. ...Later |
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spirit 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 101 of 381 ) Politics in religion is what is ayodhaya.A temple and winning elections on that.One supreme god according to hindu religion.Whether it was temple/mosque who knows. |
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mohammam 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 102 of 381 ) hi, nice to hear about uma bharti, as she is our sports minister and as we know she is sanyasi, she should only do puja's etc. as she is politician for that only there was news of her marriage, and thanks to our government and there ministries, as this lady in her entire life havnt played even gulli danda, and she is working as sports minister, waa ri bharat maata teri jay ho, after seeing all this i can only say that, in our great country there is one proverb " ke ghade bhi gulab jamoon khate hai yeha per " thats it folk latter afterwards |
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kajalj 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 103 of 381 ) I agree with some sentiments of some of my friends here about Uma Bharati being a true living example of a Hypocrite - hah.. as a "Sanyasini"...sure.. who had made the train delayed by an hour and wanted to only travel by AC. How can I forget her. Lets get to the point. I think this entire Ayodhya thing was started as a political thing which just got out of hand and not just taht it was like putting a hand in the hornet's nest. Are we forgetting the basic ethics and principals that we stand for as a nation?? Secularism... this is teh sacred word guys and not violence and killing. I mean which religious book talks about attaining peace by killing... oh shame... this is a disgrace. Whether we are Hindus or Muslims of whoever... lets not forget that we are all human beings... killing is not a solution and that temple... its no better than worshipping in a graveyard where thousands of people lay dead. I wonder how Advani, Uma Bharati and company even get sleep in the nights after the Ayodhya thing.. its just sad. |
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punitgm 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 104 of 381 ) Ayodhya may well be a controversial issue , but the fact remains that the hindu temples were desecrated by the muslim invaders , be it Somnath , Mathura,or Kashi.Why is it that a mosque is present every where a temple is ?Why is not such a hue and cry made and chest beating not done by the political class of india , when hindus are butchered in Kashmir , when temples are destroyed in Pak and Bangladesh? |
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Tathagat 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 105 of 381 ) appa DeepO bhava PM hopeful of solution to Ayodhya issue by March...!!! but... I hope that you die And your death'll come soon I will follow your casket In the pale afternoon And I'll watch while you're lowered Down to your deathbed And I'll stand o'er your grave 'Til I'm sure that you're dead. Come you masters of war You that build all the guns You that build the death planes You that build the big bombs You that hide behind walls You that hide behind desks I just want you to know I can see through your masks... A mandir can be built there U want me to believe Like Judas of old You lie and deceive A war can be won You want me to believe But I see through your eyes And I see through your brain Like I see through the water That runs down my drain ... this all was to counter Mandal, killing 3000+ people... it's still not enuff for u... anything lessor than a mosque rebuilt... even the delay in doin' that would be to encroach onto muslim's rights... a de facto temple there would mean... unoffical declaration of the hindu rashtra... Why the hindi newsreaders anchores always greet 'namaskaar'... why not Sikh, Muslim, Jain, Zorastrian way as well?!? ...Civic and other Govt. offices should not allow religious festivals to be observed in the office. Why even the Bar Associations office in the court of law installs Ganesha ?!? Its is something very personal... n if u do one such thing of one such religion... than u gotta do the rest... |
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khan 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 106 of 381 ) punitgm, I think you are missing a very important point in the issue. Muslims and their leaders had been saying right from day one of the dispute, that there was no temple before Babri Masjid was built there in 16th century, and all muslims have unanimously said that they will give the site to Hindus if it was prooved that there was a temple there. Then why don't your leaders and the Vanar Sena(I mean Saffron Sena) proove this?????????? Why they take up the issues onto the streets? Why did they destroyed the Babri Masjid? And, why they caused the worst communal riots in 50 years. The reason is that beyond any doubt there was no temple existing at the site, prior to Babri Masjid. Infact, it was not even built by Babur, and Babur never visited the Babri Masjid. |
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susat 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 107 of 381 ) People who destroyed buildings in the name of religion and built other structures were plain barbarians. They were people of the old times who did not have any better things to do. They were un-civilized and uncouth. But it is truly regrettable that we Indians have elected some people who believe that destroying historic structures and rebuilding temples in their place is going to do good to India. With leaders like these and the society such as ours, we are never going to progress. |
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luvvmann 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 108 of 381 ) tathagat, you are a pure brainless monkey. you and khan are two monkeys we can do without. you are a communist bastard whose mind is all mixed up. your anti-hindu prejudice knows no end. you idiot, hindus have every right to say namaste or what ever they want to say when ever they want to say it. your communist retarded brain cannot understand that. why don't you listen to radio pakistan and see what they say. every other word is insha- allah or salam alikum. those bastards in pakistan are so debased that they greet everyone in arabic. these semi educated illegitimate children of invading turks and other retarded hooligans have captivayted your puny little brain. go clean your empty head. it is easy to do. |
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luvvmann 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 109 of 381 ) khan. answer the qestion put here. why are masjids built in temple premises. many temples were defaced and/or demolished. so it is only natural that these musjids should be demolished. all musjids that are built in temple premisis should be moved or destroyed. there is no other solution. |
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luvvmann 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 110 of 381 ) hindus, rise up and destroy all musjids built in temple lands. ayodhya, mathura and kashi musjids should be destroyed immediately or moved. other musjids should be destroyed after that or moved.there is no other solution. |
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rbx187 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 111 of 381 ) This post is a reply to khan. For one thing there is archeological evidence to the existence of a temple..do your research before making stupid comments...since u have access to the internet it should be not that difficult for you to research the topic. Your religion (Islam) is a cancer. Every where it goes it kills the host culture and religion. ie. Persia, and India. Persia had a great civlization before the invasion of the Arabs to Persia. Today the true culture of Persia is never seen, because the Arabian religion has killed it. As for India, Islam has highjacked the Indian culture and language. One final work...Islam was propogated by the sword and it will die by the sword... |
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indo_g 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 112 of 381 ) BLOOD-SOAKED BJP is all about power. Babri Masjid is BRAHMIN's power and poor mussalman's survival from getting murdered raped and looted |
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indo_g 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 113 of 381 ) My fellow Hindus!!! fools!!! Dont get carried away by BRAHMIN BJP. Hindus are DIFFERENT from brahmins like we are different from muslims. Support anyone who is against BRAHMIN SUPREMACY. |
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indo_g 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 114 of 381 ) TALIBAN BJP(read BRAHMINS) is trying to make us Hindus go back to medieval days. BLIND FAITH without logic, Strong CASTE heirarchy with BRAHMIN rulers is what they are trying to impose on us Hindus. Watch out. If you read BJP's articles in the magazines you will realise they can never come close to rationality. In their plausible arguments they always attack muslims, communists there by appealing to our sense but if you deeply analyse their articles its all a bunch of lies. Though they appeal to one's sense in the long run Hindu Talibans (read Sangh Parivar) will be punished by our people |
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indo_g 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 115 of 381 ) STATE TERRORISM is what bjp is indulging in. By killing muslims, christians, dalits, buddhists, other backward hindus(read non-brahmins) bjp rightly deserves to be called KILLING MACHINE. bjp is all about blood. |
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indo_g 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 116 of 381 ) Did you read the articles about ELECTORAL TERRORISM being committed by bjp. They are deleting dalit, muslim, christian voters from the voter list in UP. Instead thousands of brahmins suddenly appeared in the voter list. I am happy dat i am a hindu(not a brahmin...o well i belong to educated middle class...hehe) and that i am not going through all this shit. I really pity those dalits and minorities. |
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indo_g 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 117 of 381 ) SAFFRON STATE IS A TERRORIST STATE. It will kill all the non-brahmins (hindus, dalits, moslems, christians, buddhists). |
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lukman 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 118 of 381 ) indo_g Is there a limit to the cock and bull stories about BJP that you are retailing again and again? Do you think every one else is a fool. There should be some limit to putting madness of the kind you display. Are you one of those murderers, who see their own reflection in the mirror. Shut up and stop your crazy messages. |
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sal 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 119 of 381 ) A nation is nothing without its people. It's not just land and scenary. It can only be as great as it's people. Look at the people of India... my god!!! Is it surprising that it remains backward. Keep going back you guys. Don't stop. You can't stop. This is your destiny. It is not your fault that your priorities are screwed up. It's karma!!! Who cares about small matters as corruption, failing infrastructure, poverty, non-existent health care, and those types of things. Why bother with economic stability??? Don't worry if most of you starve to death. It doesn't matter if half the nation lives in the ghetos. Atleast 5% of you have cell phones and internet connections.... What more do you want??? Judging from the great Indian standards, that's pretty darn good achievement!!! Of course, religion must remain the focus. What better way to show your great hinduism than by humiliating the followers of the great Islam!!! Bravo! What great fighters these indian hindus are. See how they can demolish a muslim symbol and no body can touch them. Wow!! What a great nation!! A lot of you want to follow in the footsteps of Israel. Look how great Israel is. Single handedly, without any help from anyone, they have occupied and suppresed the Arabs - the so called great muslims. And look how peacefully they live now - enjoying themselves in 'their' land. Ah, basking in the luxury.... As for me, I'm a citizen of the world. If a bunch of uncouth, uncivilized hoodlums want to take a piece of land and turn it into a living hell, then by all means go ahead. Be my guest. But you'll never find me there. I'll watch the fun from a distance. I've kissed the Indian citizenship goodbye. Good ridance!!! |
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asif 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 120 of 381 ) The demolition of Babri Masjid was a black day in Indian history and will remain so. RSS and BJP set out to supposedly correct one historical wrong by doing another. It pushed India back into medivial ages and the pictures of frenzied karsevaks atop the tomb shook the whole world. And Mr Vajpayee you are way off the mark when you called it a gesture of national expression. It was just part of your party's fascist agenda and many hindus also didn't believed it was the correct way of settling the dispute, which was subjudice and before supreme court. |
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asif 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 121 of 381 ) Bertrand Russel had said that "each nation has leaders, it deserves", and to deserve a fascist government like that of BJP and PM like Vajpayee who operates from behind a mask {remember the famous words of BJP ideologue Govindacharya},it's a frightening thought. The only consolation is that still majority of hindus are not communal despite best efforts of BJP, and there is still hope for future despite the fact that all political parties lack a vision for better India. |
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skgala 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 122 of 381 ) Ayodhya issue is used for Political purpose, and I don't see situation chaning in next 10 to 20 years. Most our our population is illitrate, and are easily aroused by Religious affiliations. As long as that remains true, there will be Politicians trying to take advantage. Solutions are there, but no one wants to break the bread. For example, there can be temple, mosque, Gurudwara, Church etc... at the same place. Other example that there can be a Hospital, Anath Aashram etc..., After all service to mankind is service to God. But as long as our country does not get out of the grip of illitracy, we will keep facing this issue. |
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gggghhhh 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 123 of 381 ) Bull shit! this is one happy occasion for Hindus, when you look back at the past 1000 years of atrocities against Hindus. This is one rare experience, where Hindus exhibited some "Testestrone" |
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asif 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 124 of 381 ) The demolition of Babri Masjid was a black day in Indian history and will remain so. RSS and BJP set out to supposedly correct one historical wrong by doing another. It pushed India back into medivial ages and the pictures of frenzied karsevaks atop the tomb shook the whole world. And Mr Vajpayee you are way off the mark when you called it a gesture of national expression. It was just part of your party's fascist agenda and many hindus also didn't believed it was the correct way of settling the dispute, which was subjudice and before supreme court. |
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asif 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 125 of 381 ) It's a fact that both BJP and Congress has used babri masjid issue as a political plank, to furthet there intrests. Don't forget it was a conspiracy by Arun Nehru and late CM of U.P, V.B.Singh to open the gates of masjid for puja. And then again Congress was guilty of shilanayas at that particular place. The rath yatra of Advani to whip up anti-muslim sentiments is part of history as is the presence of top brass of BJP at time of demolition. But most surprising thing is that some fools don't see through all this and consider it an example of "hindu testosterone"[sic]. |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 126 of 381 ) Asif, For a person who has refused to oppose islamic hadiths on the killing and maiming of non muslims, you have no moral standing to ANYONE else a fundamentalist. You claim that it is the right of muslims to impose their laws and to disobey the constitution. It is hilarious to see you get all sanctimonious about Babri Masjid and hindus in general. You are quite a piece of work, pal. (Check the thread on islam to see asif's lovely point of view) |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 127 of 381 ) With muslims like Syed Bukhari and other traitorous anti-national mullahs who seem to set the direction for 137 million Indian muslims, it is high time these muslims are harrassed until they stop their support for islamic terrorism. None of these Muslim leaders and members of Jamaat-e-islami have spoken against islamic terrorism. In fact, ALL of them have supported the taliban and other assorted terrorists. Milder versions of the Imam such as Asif & co would now like to preach to non muslims about the evils of non-muslim fundamentalism. What a joke!! |
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Jai 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 128 of 381 ) The way it happened might be wrong but whatever happend was right. The prob with most of the indian Muslims is that they are uneducated. No body was using that mosque but for Hindus it was the most important religious place. Muslims should have given this as a gift to Hindu's but they made it a prestigious issue and look what happened . They still have time to think about it. They should give that to hindus and set an example and so that we can live in harmony. This is great country and we should work together. Both side shoulds have to compromise some place. Muslim friends you start with this you will never find hindu's behind. Hindus and Muslims : STOP LISTENING TO RELIGIOUS LEADERS . THEY ARE BUNCH OF JOKERS WITHOUT ANY WORK, LIVING ON FOOLS(OUR)MONEY. KICK THEM OUT EVERYTHING WILL BECOME NICE AND EASY. THIRD GRADE PEAPLE BECOME "LEADER" AND FORTH GRADE PEAPLE BECOME RELIGIOUS LEADER(ASSUMING THERE IS NO GRADE BELOW FORTH) God bless India. |
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indo_g 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 129 of 381 ) TALIBAN BJP(read BRAHMINS) is trying to make us Hindus go back to medieval days. BLIND FAITH without logic, Strong CASTE heirarchy with BRAHMIN rulers is what they are trying to impose on us Hindus. Watch out. If you read BJP's articles in the magazines you will realise they can never come close to rationality. In their plausible arguments they always attack muslims, communists there by appealing to our sense but if you deeply analyse their articles its all a bunch of lies. Though they appeal to one's sense in the long run Hindu Talibans (read Sangh Parivar) will be punished by our people STATE TERRORISM is what bjp is indulging in. By killing muslims, christians, dalits, buddhists, other backward hindus(read non-brahmins) bjp rightly deserves to be called KILLING MACHINE. bjp is all about blood. BLOOD-SOAKED BJP is all about power. Babri Masjid is BRAHMIN's power and poor mussalman's survival from getting murdered raped and looted |
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chandu72 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 130 of 381 ) I strong feel that Ram Temple should be built in Ayodhya. I am really surprised to note that being a hindu country we are not able to built a temple for our God. It's really shameless. No one condemns when Temples are destroyed/dismantled in Afghanistan or Pakistan, but everyone is interested in India. The muslim should understand that they are living Hindu State and should respect Hindu's philosophy and its values. For peace and harmoney in the country they should handover the disputes structure for building temple. Also, I appeal to the Muslim to stop supporting militants in the country. Otherwise in the days to come they will have serious problems. I also I don't agree in calling Dec.6 as dark day in Indian History. |
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chandu72 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 131 of 381 ) I strong feel that Ram Temple should be built in Ayodhya. I am really surprised to note that being a hindu country we are not able to built a temple for our God. It's really shameless. No one condemns when Temples are destroyed/dismantled in Afghanistan or Pakistan, but everyone is interested in India. The muslim should understand that they are living Hindu State and should respect Hindu's philosophy and its values. For peace and harmoney in the country they should handover the disputes structure for building temple. Also, I appeal to the Muslim to stop supporting militants in the country. Otherwise in the days to come they will have serious problems. I also I don't agree in calling Dec.6 as dark day in Indian History. |
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knagarkt 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 132 of 381 ) Why does the Indian media only keep highlighting the Babri Masjid demolition. What about all the temples demolished in Bangladesh & Pakistan. Do minorities (Christians, Hindus, Sikhs etc) in Pakistan and Bangladesh have any rights at all? Does our media even care to talk about what is happening there? |
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indi 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 133 of 381 ) Hello:"SAFRON - CHILLI CHIPS" the ultra modern FANATICS, people say india is advancing in 21st century as a world leader .... ofcourse there's no limit to sweet dreams. Let the world know the modern day barbarism done by these fanatics. be brave man .... Some guys are quoting Naipul's... is he guy worth mentioning... the LECHEOROUS LITERARY LOAFER .... who likes to sleep with prostitutes. Make up your mind fellas you will pay for what you've done. |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 134 of 381 ) indo_g, Why does a paki like you concern yourself with India's internal affairs pal. Shouldn't you be shooting up heroin or blowing up civilians, and show the whole world that you are a red-blooded paki?? Why all this pretense??? Your attempts to do some religious baiting are quite pathetic , to say the least. |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 135 of 381 ) indi, VS Naipaul is an intellectual giant, but brainless barbaric pakis wont understand. Besides, VS Naipaul's observations are right on the money about the barbaric societies that islamic countries have bred. A true terrorist jihadi muslim is good at two things: 1. whining about how unfair muslims are treated 2. using terror on civilians belonging to assorted non muslim countries. |
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indiindi 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 136 of 381 ) Hello:"SAFRON - CHILLI CHIPS" Those who are still misguided by naipul's intellectual, i can only have *pity* on them. For he's neither an Indian nor a true hindu. What he did during his LECHEOROUS LITERARY tenure was a cacophony against a religion to gain CHEAP pouplarity. For those who responded above: I'm an Indian by passport and heart, feels pain of seeing so many hindus in my neighborhood without food and clean water, and i'm proud to be part of them. The present Indian regime is burdening ordinary citizens of all communities including Hindus with hatred; when it must take care of their well beings. HATE BEGETS HATE! |
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asif 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 137 of 381 ) IT WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER FOR NAIPUL, HAD HE STUCK TO WRITING FICTION. HIS WORKS CONCERNING MUSLIMS ARE SO OBVIOUSLY BIASED, AND IN THIS REGARD YOU CAN READ ARTICLE PUBLISHED IN TIME MAGZINE, WHEN HE WAS AWARDED NOBLE PRIZE. |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 138 of 381 ) Naipaul travelled extensively to muslim countries and wrote down what he saw. It is no use for muslims to whine about him being "biased". When he writes about the barbaric ways of the islamic states in the middle east, he is right on the mark. In my travels to the middle east, I have seen enough to know that VS Naipaul knows what he is talking about. |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 139 of 381 ) indiindi, You are right about hate begetting hate, but let us not forget that muslim hatred for non muslims started this whole vicious cycle. |
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rajeev 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 140 of 381 ) I think it was a national sentiment. But I think it no more is as it creates lot of melee and chaos in the country. I am actually for Ram Temple in the place of Babri Masjid and a Babri Masjid nearby |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 141 of 381 ) rajeev, I agree that rebuilding Babri Masjid elsewhere in Ayodhya is a very reasonable compromise, but one that will not be accepted by the islamic fundamentalists and their supporters in India. For all their talk of communal harmony, the muslims are yet to show an accomadating spirit in the interest of national unity, which makes one question their rhetoric on communal harmony. Looks like they are more interested in a game of political brinksmanship. People like Bukhari would like to form an islamic political party and get muslim voters behind him, as that would make him a very important power broker. |
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rajeev 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 142 of 381 ) Mr.Karpaal, I think in a democratic country anyone can form a party. Be it "corrupt" laloo or "fanatic" BalThackeray or "extremist" Bukhari they all have a right to form a political party. But we all should educate the mass in preventing all these evil people from getting elected. As a hindu majority we have a responsibility in educating the moslem mass from getting into false hands. The fall of taliban has started the disintegration of islamic extremism. Likewise I will be happy if all our countrymen understand the evil effects of the self-appointed messiahs of hinduism and take the country into a more progressive mode. |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 143 of 381 ) rajeev, I dont see why the hindu majority must shoulder the responsibility of educating the muslims masses. I doubt that such a thing is even possible. Furthermore, I see no evidence that the fall of the taliban is leading to the end of islamic extremism. As long as the saudis have money to burn they will fund islamic extremism whenever and whereever they can. As always, follow and the money and you can make more accurate predictions. The only answer to islamic extremism in India is a show of force by non muslims, since we can hardly expect moderate muslims to speak against islamic fundamentalists. Again, if the muslims stand down from their confrontational position, all the so-called hindu leaders in the VHP won't have an enemy to point a finger at. Unfortunately, the muslims are getting confrontational and the VHP uses that as an example to motivate their own goons and thugs. There is no happy ending to this story, but the only way Indians will learn the lessons of lasting peace is for this confrontation to reach its logical conclusion. |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 144 of 381 ) rajeev, You say "we should prevent these evil people from being elected". You should realize that the laloos and the mulayams have no intention of educating the voter. Most Indians dont understand the power of their vote, and most of them, if given a choice between a genuine leader and a thug from their own caste/religion, would rather elect the latter. The hangover of socialism in India has left most people confused as to the real purpose of a govt, and most believe that the govt. should be their mai-baap. Individual responsibility is a fictional concept in most parts. |
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Shahbaaz 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 145 of 381 ) Strange, as it is, but those who harp, the "national sentiment" on Babri Masjid demolition, ignore that it was the Constitution, Law of the Land, Secularism, and Justice that was demolished, with Babri Masjid. This is called majoritarianism, and if End Justifies means, as Machiavellian principle suggets, then we as Indians are outright lying when we say "Satyamaeva Jayate"! Naipaul and Vajpayee, have luxury to play with words, but who pays the price, the poor, who have nothing to do with Babri Mashid or even Ram Mandir. In hypothetical sense, even if the morally bankrupt decision is made to build Ram Mandir on Demolished Masjid, there certainly will be another Masjid, to be demolished, or a Church or a Gurudwara under the pretext that it was "supposedly" built on some obscure Mandir, proof or no proof. It is high time Indian masses looked into the mirror and reliazed how far removed we are from the ideals of Tagore, Gandhi, Maulana Azad, Sane Guruji, S M Joshi, Jayprakash Narayan, Subhashchandra Bose, etc. And how much VHP/BJP/RSS, ShivSena and Bajrang Dals are destroying the "Reasoning Power" and social fabric of Indian masses. It is time to change and shun any kind of extremism, lest history is the grim reminder in cases like termination of Nazi, the ideologues of RSS and ShivSena. |
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asif 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 146 of 381 ) The "Babri Masjid issue", was sowed by Congress, but it's benefit reaped by BJP. It was a purely poltical tool used by political parties to serve their purposes. It was of course a symbolic issue and it's destruction was a blow to secular traditions of this nation. I think in a country where the real issues of life are food and shelter; these are issues politicians use to fool the populace. A better solution would have been to wait and follow court orders[we live in modern democratic society]or construct a charitable hospital or orphanage at that site[we need them badly] , and a temple and a mosque at seprate places in ayodhaya. |
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asif 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 147 of 381 ) The "Babri Masjid issue", was sowed by Congress, but it's benefit reaped by BJP. It was a purely poltical tool used by political parties to serve their purposes. It was of course a symbolic issue and it's destruction was a blow to secular traditions of this nation. I think in a country where the real issues of life are food and shelter; these are issues politicians use to fool the populace. Abetter solution would have been to wait and follow court orders[we live in modern democratic society]or construct a charitable hospital or orphanage at that site[we need them badly] , and a temple and a mosque at seprate places in ayodhaya. |
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indiindi 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 148 of 381 ) karappu, Why are you so found of n..pul? if you are a true literate than read lot of other good writers. i know you wont since this CACOPHONIC writer spills poison with his writings..... n..pul is a LACHEROUS, LITERARY, LOAFER |
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lukman 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 149 of 381 ) Immediately after December 6, the leading fortnightly of India came out with an issue, saying on the cover page "India in Shame". The whole issue was full of articles from its correspondents, pouring scorn on those who pulled down the Babri structure. There was only one article, which gave a write-up about one of those involved in the act. That article said that this person had received a royal treatment, as he travelled by second class from Ayodhya to his home. And he had become a hero for his neighbourers and his co-workers in his factory. The question is which India is then drowned in shame? It is the India of leftists and the English language column writers, because they hardly feel like an ordinary Indian, though in their writings, they try to expropriate the right to talk on behalf of the entire country or all the Hindus or at least all the intelligent persons in the country. But for this class of persons, Indians would have settled this issue peacefully and amicably. |
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luvvmann 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 150 of 381 ) asif, i have a better suggestion. let us break the blach stone at kaaba and construct a hospital over that stupid structure. you can treat all of your palestinian friends who are getting butchered in israel and rightfully so. why do you need that blach ugly stone at kaaaba. a hospital will be more useful. don't you think. i bet you will agree. |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 151 of 381 ) It is laughable to see muslim bigots like Asif (who are yet to denounce islamic terrorism) talk about "a blow to the secular traditions of this country". If the Indian muslims dont understand that they need to get secular themselves (instead of claiming god-given superiority over the majority)if they want the majority to reciprocate. One would have taught that you morons would have learnt such lessons from the classroom, which you have saved you all the embarrasment of making complete fools of yourself at this late stage in life. |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 152 of 381 ) indiindi, The commies and the congress have been spreading hatred against the majority in India for a long time, ever since Independence, and now their communal policies are coming home to roost. This is plain as day to anyone who has the brains to look at the series of events that have taken place in the past few decades, and the resultant domino effect. |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 153 of 381 ) luwmann, Great idea. Asif, I think we should break down the Kabah in Mecca and build a hospital or a food godown down there. I am sure your islamic brothers would do this willingly with great joy. I am sure that the hindus will also agree to build a hospital where lord rama's temple stands. Luwmann, I applaud you for you incisive thinking on this topic. |
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perfect 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 154 of 381 ) secularism for some people mean : having special rights("i can hav 4 wives not u), "no we won't say vande-mataram its against our religion", save pakistan,palestine, "do jehad against india", "don't ban simi", ................ the list goes on......... |
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kautilya 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 155 of 381 ) outlook is basically a transvestite which is utterly incapable of taking any decisive opinion on the right side of the arguement.Its anti of right and pro of unimportant left. |
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ritsain 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 156 of 381 ) whoa!!!, it's quite surprising to see such a lot of these "hinduutva" brigade guys posting messages on this board. reminds me of "khisiyani billi khamba noche". i guess this is the best you guys can do now, becuase neither the media, nor the common Indian people care one bit about the Ayodha temple issue anymore. (just check out the most recent Outlook and TOI opinion polls). What's more, even the BJP has come down to realizing that India is a secular society, and there's no place for Pak-like theocracy in our country. Sorry you mandir-maniacs, your cause is as dead as the Aryan pure blood mockery of the Hun dictator of yesteryear. Rest in Pieces |
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MrPM 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 157 of 381 ) Well the solution was in the article itself ,Templeon the current site and Mosque at any other site. The only other solution is to give the land to Army.Let them build a temple and mosque over there and have full control on the site. |
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aryap 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 158 of 381 ) I am not sure who "ritsain"is , his comments inspired me to write about what a "blind bozo" he is. Hindutva is not about to fall to pieces. 56% of hindus now agree that the temple needs to be built, highest ever...After 9/11, the trend around the world is to be more fundamentalist. Same religious sentiments 2000 years ago, are still the building blocks of society. Wars are now fought with different names. Poor hindus don't know how to consolidate, unlike any other religion. Thats why we have archaic rules, muslims can be subsidised for HAJ and not hindus. Muslims can vote in blocks, its called strategic voting, but trying to consolidate the hindu vote is fundamentalism. Only in India can such nonsense prosper, no developed country can claim to uphold minority rights at the cost of majority rights. If Arungzeb can demoish 5000 temples to spread Islam, why can't a temple be recontructed at few of those. If Taliban can destroy a Buddha monument, the new afghan govt may opt to build one there. So Hindus finally get a hold of India, and correct some mistakes, whats the big deal. NOT only is it the right thing to do, its too late in happening. Imagine if this was your house that was taken over by an intruder, would you stop asking for it. |
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Admin 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 159 of 381 ) From Aniruddh Apte I agreed with most of what Mr.Jha said, but I can't fathom how he came upon the solution to the Ayodhya dispute.How can constructing a temple at the site do anything but embolden the fundamentalist organisations like the VHP,Shiv Sena,etc. What will he say next,respect their feelings and don't celebrate Valentine's day.I think , even most Hindus can see through the VHP's game now and realise that a temple shall bring nothing more than riots and general instability to the country. Besides, no organisation has the right to speak on behalf of all Hindus, certainly not the VHP. A temple at the site will create the one thing that no Indian should want - A Hindu Pakistan. |
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Admin 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 160 of 381 ) From Kaustubh Chakraborty what 'moderates' is the author of "heal the breach of faiths" referring to? at least among the youth of urban india, moderation and liberalism is dying under the effects of conformity or ignorance. "my father said that ram was born in ayodhya and see, it is in the religious scriptures..." "which one?" "how does that matter?" "and how can you be sure that your father is right?" "well, disprove it... how dare you go against my mythology?" well, the hassle of going against mythology and religion has permeated inside all my acquaintances here, one of the best business schools in the country... and when a particular party promises jingoistic paradise, and victory and retribution, and "freedom from hundreds of years of slavery".... well, that choice becomes the only alternative. and any voice to the contrary is a 'socialist' one. today, i was chided for being a 'socialist' when i suggested that perhaps historically, the mahabharat had actually taken place earlier than the ramayana... "prove it" "SOCIALIST!!" "yeah, kaustubh and his controversial statements" |
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Admin 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 161 of 381 ) From Cool Mr.Prem Shankar Jha, You need to understand one point. Agreed that there was no temple and a mosque was built in some century, Rama or for that matter Hinduism has been in existence since ages. The concept of Muslim, Islam, Christian are relatively kids in front of Hindu or Hinduism. What is wrong in one asserting the right to identity. Why do people like you still carry the colonial mentality and of subjugated slave selves?. I for that matter would like to assert my identity. Is it wrong? Do I do the same in any other country? Or for that matter will anybody allow it? If you look at history...almost most of eastern Europe was under Hindu rule and most of the names and surnames indiate the same. Would anybody side me if I say the whole of Europe belongs to US??? Get your funds clear. It's not question of religion or for that matter not identity but breaking free from slave mentality. |
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Admin 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 162 of 381 ) From Arushi Singh I am born in a Hindu family but do not practise any religion. The article has very valid arguments, however, the solution provided is hardly that. A hospital, school, orphanage or any such structure would be a much more welcome building on the disputed site than any religious structure. A proudly secular and democratic country has to learn to move ahead of religion and make rational decisions. |
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Admin 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 163 of 381 ) From Satish Jha is the same guy who portrayed Osama as a Hero. As his age is progressing, his sensibility is degenerating. It is time Outlook readers are spared from reading all this crap. If religion has no links with history, then we may as well deny the birth or Jesus or the Prophet. Why deny the belief of Hindus only? |
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Admin 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 164 of 381 ) From Sriram It is totally incorrect to say that 800 years of mughal and british rule did not make a dent on the faith. Afghanisthan pakistan bangladesh were all regions with Hindu, budhist and jain population. The muslims in pakistan were either rajputs or jats. The same is the case with Iran. A tolerant parsi population were brutalized by islamic thugs and plunderers. why is that there are very few temples in the north when compared with south India . Though I agree that a pluralistic society is inevitable, the fact cannot be denied that Mughal influence was malefic. |
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Admin 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 165 of 381 ) From jag haS THIS IS GARBAGE. hindus need all their 3000-5000 temples alongwith akhand Bharat.There are reasons that our Sampradaya ccound not be destroed by the invaders of arab religeon in the last 1200 years (not 800). we had kings such as CChhtrapati Shivaji, Rana Pratap, Guru Govindshihji and others. They were kings and fighers to protect Hinds from the arab religeon. Are Nehru, Gandhi, pawar, mulayam, Jyoti Basu,soniya, sharad, outlook,express,times,commie and samajwadi hindus and others are going to protect my people from the terrorists ? Your point totally stupid and nonsense.If you can not look bacck the invasion history of 1200 years, keep mum and sleep. |
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luvvmann 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 166 of 381 ) ps jha is an idiot. he has the guts to question hindu beliefs and truths because hindus are peaceful. but muslim bullshit is ok for hinm. he will believe in everything they say and more. send this moron to taliban land and na-pakistan. he belongs with the looneys. |
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ulmo3 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 167 of 381 ) This issue has got nothing to do with Religion and everything to do with Power. Everytime an election comes close which BJP looks like loosing they bring in this tired old issue of Ram Janmabhoomi. Hindu religion is a tolerant religion which has been hijacked by VHP goons. If sensible moderate people ("and I am not referring to Congress and Leftist who have their own axe to grind") dont protest we will end up in an intolerant society in the name of Hinduism. It is what Taliban and so many other people have done in the name of Islam Hari Krishna |
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Tathagat 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 168 of 381 ) appa DeepO bhava  Mirror image : Jaya Chandran ...2/3 female illiiteracy, half the male illiterate... this country gotta be cursed!!! only an abhishipt n shraapit rashtra can have so many illiterate... and bye the way... the saaksher (literate) are not sikshit(educated)... take a good look at urself in the mirror (u need more schools, more n better earth moving equipements... sniffer dog (not just to sniff RDX n Drugs... but the people alive, and people dead under the debri...) basic decency, duty, honesty... the last paragraph is certainly not factual, The fact is that Sita was made to go through fire to prove her innocence, purity :), or whatever since she was abducted, why not Ram :) he lived with so many monkeys. If this was not enough she was thrown in to the Jungle just b'coz a washerman said he is not that Ram that he could be so accommodating, here both seems to outsmart each other :) in the confirmation of male chauvinism. The women n the children are the eventual sufferer out of these conflicts not just the wars. So Sita was thrown awayin the jungle with twin boys inside her womb. This world is a strange world, women got right to vote in Switzerland in early seventies and till late eighties in UK it wasn't considered necessary for the husband to obtain the consent of the wife before sex, since she married the guy it was mandatory for a wife to provide all it takes... a few pleas of rape were not considered valid by the Courts till 1989 when Courts begun to rule it as rape. Strangely enough it is quite contrary that, this newspaper group is called the Hindu and Its Star Chief is Mr. Ram. Neither u sound like a Hindu nor u appears as ruthless as the Ram, the Maryada Purshottam. (The name of Shri Ram: Maryada Purshottom, the epitome of right thinking and right action, [ha!] relentless warrior in the cause of justice[ha!], inspires devotion and piety [make them monsters] in the hearts of Hindus. The misfortune is that the invocation of the name by the Sangh Parivar equally inspires frenzy on the one hand and fear on the other. This is perhaps the greatest tragedy of Ayodhya.)... dated June 24, 2000. Tathagat 2/23/2001 1:24:44 PM anything lessor than rebuilding a mosque with repentence in kar sewak's hearts... or even the delay would mean an encroachment on Muslim's rights...] u say u counldn't control!?! lier... u r the one n ur co., responsible for it... n not just the effing demolition but all the loss of lves... thousands died... 900 in Bomaby alone... let there be accountability... book them n put them behind bar... that is where these baboon belong. ... Advani, the legit Veerappan... n the chief commander de baaner sena, n qaanooni gHuunDa of Bombay u won't git away with it... this just to mislead the jaahils... divirting attention... ha. ...Most depressing day of me life!!!... dhoort u r... aankhoN meiN dhool jhonk rahey ho... ye sab jaahil samajhdaar samajhtey heiN... insulting their intelligence... they also know that u r responsible for it... every effing mallich judge in the land knows that... The whole effing party was responsible for it... what was election commission doing... if EC or the constitution is not empowered than founding baboon effing fathers missed on that... how could a guy responsible for so much trouble in the long run... could be responsible for 1000 million security n destinies.. the guy should be behind bar... n must rot there n die... ASAP. Tathagat 4/11/2001 7:07:29 PM |
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Tathagat 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 169 of 381 ) appa DeepO bhava ... did u guys read these words of wisdome in here...?!? "...But there is no such thing. There is no one viewpoint that every Indian subscribes to simply because we [they] are a vibrant, diverse and heterogeneous society. From the time I entered journalism more than two decades ago, one oft-repeated prediction was the "balkanisation" of India, that India was an artificial nation created by the British and would inevitably break up. When an intact India celebrated 50 years of freedom, I travelled the length and breadth of the country to try and understand what made us tick, what kept us together despite the awesome challenges of poverty, disparity and violence. The answer, I discovered, was simple. Two things kept us intact—democracy and pluralism. If anyone—be it government or individual—tampers with these two principles, rebellion and retribution are inevitable. The people's response to the Emergency is perhaps the most vivid demonstration of this. It took two-and-a-half years for the masses to react, but react they eventually did in the most convincing manner. The people who are now [???, no change they have been always like this] imposing a kind of cultural emergency, perpetuating this cult of intolerance [they stand for it, walk for it, bark for it], should beware the wrath of the silent majority. [a huge amount of illiterates... misinformed and mislead... confused so easily...]" "But it’s the men who are everywhere. The mammoth politician with three frizzy hairs standing on his shining scalp. The concave tycoon with the gummy smile. The mass leader with the yellow eyes. Indian men must be the ugliest in the world. Ugly and oppressive at the same time: a visual assault. Thus Indian women must be doubly pitied. To be oppressed and marginalised is one thing, but to be oppressed and marginalised by goggle-eyed, gap-toothed fatsos is not just an injustice, it’s a crisis of aesthetics. Ugliness is a crucial weapon of male dominance in India. It stuns female opponents into confusion and fear. It induces a sort of defeated resignation which the men can then quickly take advantage of. At the moment of abduction, poor dear Sita probably never had much time to react. The sight of her ten-headed kidnapper must have paralysed her. Yet the visually experimental male army controls everything in our harshly feudal land. The government, TV talk shows, high-powered discussions and elections. No wonder half a dozen eunuchs are fighting the elections this time. If you have to be male and odd-looking to win, you might as well go half the way." |
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luvvmann 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 170 of 381 ) tathagat, i have never come across a more deviant motherfucking moron than you. you shameless bastard a commie motherfucker talking about plularism and democracy and then talk about woman's rights. you fucked up bastard women are far ahead in india than many of your communist and muslim countries that you so admire. you lying self hating nincompoop stop your bullshit. a mother fucking communist preaching democracy and pluralism. fucked up bastard, russia has a huge divorce rate - why? becasue your friends the communists fucked up. look at the muslim countries you cock sucker and see how women are mistreated. moron stop your propaganda. you scumbag behnchot. |
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screw_em 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 171 of 381 ) I am a Hindu, but not a religious one. I am atheist. I don't care if Ram was born in Ayodhya or not. That does not matter to me. What matter to me is the fact is that the mainstream parties pushed the majority Hindus to the wall for far too long. They took Hindus for granted and were busy with licking Muslim arse, because they know that Muslims vote in a solid block. Unlike that, Hindus never vote en masse as a block, they are always fractious, quarrelsome, divided. So they can be taken for a ride with impunity. So Muslims can live all over the world accepting a uniform civil code of that country. Talk about UCC in India and you are branded 'communal'. Every other country is now cracking down on madrassas. Talk about madrassas in India and you are the bad guy. Thus, for the past 25 years, history books in West Bengal were doctored to reflect muslims in good light, to whitewash their invasion and attrocities in India, their temple destruction and desecration. Nobody said a word. When BJP did the same, all lefties came out of their holes protesting. Well, hell with it. I don't give a flying fuck if I am branded communal. I will speak what I feel. If muslims have to live in our country, they have to live our way and that's final. If go live in the US, I have to live their way. It's time Hindus stopped paying attention to what lefties say. It's our country. If mullahs don't like us (which they don't) they can get the hell out of here and go live in Bangladesh and Pakistan. After all India was divided to provide their homeland, wasn't it? What the fuck are they still doing in my country? This is a lesson every country is now learning after Sept 11. Never let muslim population grow more than 5% of the total population. If you let them grow more (which they will try, by infiltration, high birth rate and polygamy), your country is finished. Every other country |
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luvvmann 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 172 of 381 ) screw_em , you are absolutely correct. with people like tathagat among us and vohsendhan the country has a bleak future, no doubt. i am still hopefull that the people will turn their full fury against these communists and muslim dick suckers. sooner the better. i fully agree, a common civil code is required in india. madrassas should be banned forthwith. bangladesh and pakistan should be put on notice for their bad behavior and an all out war should be declared against muslim non-sense. |
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Tathagat 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 173 of 381 ) appa DeepO bhava Bajrang Dal urges Muslims to return shrines, offers 'Kar sewa' PTI [... soon enuff women will be in power in most countries... and MP (maryaada purushottam) will trun into 'Maha MCP villiano noombero uno"... states dismantling his temples... K was asked in '30s... that MkG's social reform... about dalits' rights... 2be allowed2enter temples... K said there shouldn't be no temples... tathagat say 'let there be schools... arun jetly ketly... goes out'obreath articulating... he is gonna give his last breath articulating... sooon enuff... lol... and this 'londe(lads)-e-Mulaayam-Raajnaath....' show was disgusting NDTV... u git carried away in ur oft over enthusiasm... whichever mandar u built... will be known and called... mandar-e-besharmii, mander of the mob... bajrangi ur mindset rejected... and u all thoroughly exposed...] [updated 18:06]... Governor/union cabinet sec. should ask the caretaker CM of UP ... not 2 let sooo mannny bajrangii in one place... heard loadz of bajrangi jaTthas leaving for Faizaabad... make preventive arrests... |
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Tathagat 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 174 of 381 ) appa DeepO bhava BJP plans temple trap for Mulayam By Pankaj Vohra HT, (New Delhi, February 26, no timeline smart paper)... The law and the land Neena Vyas : The Supreme Court has virtually made it impossible for the Government to part with even a square inch of the acquired land in Ayodhya before the final settlement. [ Divia Malik-Lahiri reported on the NewsHour @ NDTVż disputed and undisputed land while PM [which he will never be] Mahajan saidż disputed land and acquired landż. Be careful NDTVż ] the acquired land could be given 2 these bajrngies provided either they give up their claim on the disputed land or pledge2accept the court's verdict as and when it comesż the buffoon BSP's fresh MLA kept saying communal harmony while meaning disharmony... lol... twice and noone corrected him... anything lessor than rebuilding a mosque with repentence in kar sewak's hearts... or even the delay would mean an encroachment on Muslim's rights...] u say u counldn't control!?! lier... u r the one n ur co., responsible for it... n not just the effing demolition but all the loss of lves... thousands died... 900 in Bomaby alone... let there be accountability... book them n put them behind bar... that is where these baboon belong... RSS-VHP TEMPLE AGENDA : DEMOCRACY UNDER THREAT By Harkishan Singh Surjeet Opinion - Editorials : Treading dangerous ground The Hindu Opinion - News Analysis :Unleashing a whirlwind : The VHP has been allowed to beat the Ayodhya drum again... To reach a crescendo by the next Lok Sabha poll? Neena Vyas reports with inputs from J.P.Shukla. Know Your Hindu Fundamentalism : Brahmanic Terrorist Organisations : The Sangh Parivar |
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Tathagat 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 175 of 381 ) appa DeepO bhava ...everybody keep calling it undisputed land... it is not... it is also disputed in the wake of SC directive or whatever... The Supreme Court has virtually made it impossible for the Government to part with even a square inch of the acquired land in Ayodhya before the final settlement. The Only option now is to make preventive arrests... including these ugly haggard bajrangiis... Vishwa Bajrangii Parishad se appeal karegaa... abbe kab karegaa be? jab sab swa'haa ho jaayega tab!!! he said loadz of other future tense... [just remember another'Nge' hum Gujraat meiN shaantii chaahenge...] u r all close cousins... n u keep meeting them which gives them legitimacy... but u just the same anyway... how did u get here... on the seat of power... who gave u the mandate... i don't think this poor ugly stupid country is stupid enuff 2 give u any legitimacy ever... not even when all bajrangi spit their venom and embrace Nehruvian Secular principles... tell u what u won't ever be acceptable in this jaahil land... this cobbled up majority of left right and center of desperation... is immoral... how good a thief would be as watchman...??? ...shoot at sight... we know what u mean moDy and we know who would be the targets... U were the most active lumpen contribution to this stupid agitation for a stupid fictitious god [all gods are pigments of jaahil imagination]... ah as the perennial refuge of an scoundrel u all did kaargil and got 2 ur last tally which would have been ur lost tally without it... and even bhaiNs like Mahesh Bhat saying he couldn't tolerate Sonia as PM... said he would leave the Mallichh'istan 4 good... well prepare all such stupid stupid snobs... and eff off with these disgusting bajrangiiz... |
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shastry 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 176 of 381 ) Dear Sir/Madam, I think it's high time now that we make these muslims believe that they cannot dictate terms at the cost of Hindus.We all very well know that partition of India was purely based on religion. And I am really proud of all my muslim brothers who stayed back in India. They enjoy lot of freedom here than in Pakisthan. Thanks to our ugly politicians that they can even openly badmouth Hindus and Hinduism. The situation has come to a position where Hindus are being critised if they talk about Hinduism . But on the contrary if a muslim freely expresses his religion of faith or badmouth Hinduism , he won't be critised. Even these ugly politicians and insane media as redifined word Secularism. Secularism now means you can badmouth Hinduism and praise those muslims who badmouth it. What a pity? Why cannot these muslims understand that they can never confront with Hindus in India. Why cannot they understand the feelings of their fellow Hindus? Why cannot they understand and agree with the Hindus that there should be Ram temple there? Muslims have Mecca. For Hindus , Ayodhya is as important as Mecca to Muslims. It's supposedly a birth place of Lord Ram. Why cannot they just think good and reach some agreement with Hindus? Muslims cannot really confront Hindus in India. They were just fortunate that Hindus are more resilient, more understanding that they are not doing any harm to them. But believe me if you test the patience of 80% population of Hindus, then muslims have to be reminded of another Bosnia in India!! I am proud of Islam. I am proud of my Muslim brothers. But it's not the way to behave with Hindus in India. Everybody knows that it's the Muslim commnunity that started commnunal flare up in Gujarat. I am sad that many muslims were now being killed because of retaliation from Hindus. Why cannot Muslims be practical? You don't have political power in India. You don't have financial power in India. That means you really cannot do anything in India. It's only our good sense that allowed you to live freely all these 50 years. Still you want to be ignorant with the belief that you can do anything you want?!! Wake up! India has real good problems to tackle, not these communal tensions. India has to tackle the problems of illiteracy, corruption, over population. So, let's all unite and face these changes. Muslims really has the chance now to show that they can also contribute good to our country by resolving this issue of Mandir-Masjid. Already you are facing crisis now that your religion is being equalled with terrorism at the international level. So, it's a kind of last oppurtunity for muslims to show that their religion is really a good religion. Otherwise it will become a lost oppurtunity for them Sincerely, Laxminath |
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grohit 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 177 of 381 ) SCREW VHP, BAJRANG DAL etc etc Morons all of them. I'm a hindu all right, but who gives a damn to religion? 1stly all these parties should be banned and Ashok singhal put in jail. Communal harmony is the only solution. Otherwise India will crumble like a pack of cards; lose out to growing economies like China; and Pakistan will have a free hand/rule over India!!! Let VHP suck their ***** then... |
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luvvmann 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 178 of 381 ) grohit, you are either an idiot, ignoramuse, or a downright moron. i am not sure about your anger against the VHP or Bajrang Dal. you might not care about religion. but 140 million muslim fanatics in india do. the VHP is not indulging in violence. it is reacting to it. yes, violence by the muslims will beget violence by the hindus. i have already warned of a devastating war between communities. it is mainly due to muslim appeasement started by Gandhi and then followed by the congress and turned into an art by the anti-national communists. hindus will be wiped out if they do not defend themselves. |
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grohit 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 179 of 381 ) Ban VHP. Forget the damned Ram temple stuff once and for all! There are scores of important, worldly, practical issues and hajjaar socio-economic problems to be addressed. Just when India started to show signs of progress, VHP,Bajrang Dal, etc etc fan up communal tensions.... screw them (For the sake of information for all u Hindu fanatics, I'm a Hindu). |
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luvvmann 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 180 of 381 ) monkeys like tathagat and vohesendhan and others like them are good examples as to why we need the VHP and the Bajrang Dal. the congresswalas and now the BJP fools are doing the same thing. they are appeasing the muslims. this will ruin india. the pakistani mentality of the muslims is the roor cause of the problem. their dream is convert india into a muslim country. until that happens create mayhem and violence. if this mentality is not fought it will spell doom for india. the real problem here is muslim fanaticism and congress or secular obfuscation and encourabement to misbehavior. a strong and violent hindu response will put sense into these hot heads. an all out asssault on pakistan and the destruction of muslim belligerance is the only answer. if not, you have seen nothing yet. |
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grohit 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 181 of 381 ) Look here Luvmann, u say VHP is non violent. They r the ones to pursue this ram mandir issue. They r the ones who r trying to assemble this bunch of hooligans (ram sevaks) to defy the govt. and courts... Why rake up the whole issue at the cost of the nation, people? Is ram mandir @ Ayodhya important? More important than the lives of 1 billion people in India? Would u give up ur livelihood, ur job, ur career prospects for that? India is going to lose it's image, going to lose out to competitors like China... What about poverty, infrastrucure, foreign investment, Indian IT, BT etc? Just 1 day of bandh affects everything. At this rate , India along with it's people like u will go to DOGS! But ofcourse, u have more urgent and important matters like Ayodhya, hindu vs muslim issues to think about. Ur future depends on those things.... |
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gdesai 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 182 of 381 ) The first problem is this idiot psedo-seculat media. Why is Dec. 6th a black day? What is wrong with Hindus claiming what belongs to them. In this particular instance all they want is their land back. I have heard many biased statments in the media but I think problem is their mentality. For example, they would always describe Babri structure as an mosque. There has not been a mosque for deades. It is 'Babri structure'. And hindu does not want to construct temple there but they want to re-construct temple that was destroyed but Babar. If one reads the history, tru history, one understands that Babar was a terrorist. Just like Taliban that destroyed the Buddha statue, Babar destroyed the Rama Temple. I hear many idiotic arguments: 1) VHP/Hindu should follow law of the land. - They have been for decades. There are four cases pending in the court for decades yet there is no judgement. This is injustice. If breaking a law against injustice wrong then Freedom fight against the British empire was wrong, Nelson mandela was wrong in fighting against aperthide in south africa, Martin Luther King was wrong is fighting to get civil rigts. 2) There are more important things to take care? For whome? For many Hindus this is most important. It is so important thet they are willing to sacrific there life for it. 3) it will disturb the communal harmoney. - May be. But at some point you have to fight for your adhikar. The land is not handed over to Hindus and you have riots then let them build the temple. Either way you will have riots. Lets face it as long as Muslims are in number you will not have peace. In the same town of Godhara, less then two months ago, there was a riot between two muslim sects. There was no issue of Temple but there was still riots. ...jigman |
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layman 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 183 of 381 ) How long can will we fellow Indians be fighting on like this ?Are we waiting for any foreign power to take advantage of our weakness-as the Brit's did ,centuries back? The Ayodhya issue is only being exploited by the cunning politicians,with the comman man feeling the burnt of their power greed. To the comman man,what is important is roti,kapda aur makaan;As far as religion is concerned ,he is satisfied with praying in his heart. I think if all the extremists were to engage themselves on building the nation ,India would become a superpower instead of the communal couldron that it is now!. -the layman |
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luvvmann 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 184 of 381 ) grohit, your anger should be directed at the congress party hooligans and the communist party monkeys who are instigating the muslims. the VHP stand is correct. they have a right to religious expression that anyone in india is entitled to. to you a mandir may not be important. that is your view. the construction of the mandir is necessary because it represents the hindu resolve to stand up against odds and claim what belongs to them. this is not a simple issue as you suggest. the congress party has deliberately insulted the hindus for the past 50 years for political mileage. it has divided the hindus and sown hatred in the muslims to remain inpower. the BJP was a breath of fresh air until it has started to clone the congress party. |
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luvvmann 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 185 of 381 ) grohit, you do not understand the implication at ayodhya. it is not just about building a temple (we have many temples). it is a means of warning the people against the socalled secularist non-sense that the congress party and others are indulging in. they are appeasing the muslims and creating a permanent vote bank to remain in power. this has given rise to anti-national forces and encouraged pakistani mentality in india. the muslims have been hijacked by this. it is not just you who wants progress, believe me. the problem is the misguided slogan of secularism that fanatic muslims are exploiting to damage the country. Ayodhya is a symbol to stop this non-sense, it is a galvanizing point. either we defeat the forces that represent false secularism, minority fear baiting, and anti-national as represented by the congress party and the communists or we will sink deeper and deeper. by the way, the BJP has lost its way and has become a congress party-II. this will spell danger for the future. islamic extremism will grow and will result in hindu retaliation. the violence will get out of hand. open your eyes the VHP is not the issue. |
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luvvmann 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 186 of 381 ) grohit, obviously you have not understood what ayodhya is about. it is about progress, the progress of the servile and cowardly hindu mind. will hindus as a people stand up for anything. if the answer is yes, there will be progress. if the answer is no, we will be servile and loose what is left of the country. why do you think we lost pakistan. what is happening in kashmir. after that do you think the muslims will stop troubling you. i don't believe so. either we stand up and fight this menace or we will be consumed. if ayodhya is not important, then why do the muslims not just give it up. after all it is a hindu religious site. can u think a little before forming opinions. |
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Admin 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 187 of 381 ) From Sriram Heal The Breach Of Faiths It is totally incorrect to say that 800 years of mughal and british rule did not make a dent on the faith. Afghanisthan pakistan bangladesh were all regions with Hindu, budhist and jain population. The muslims in pakistan were either rajputs or jats. The same is the case with Iran. A tolerant parsi population were brutalized by islamic thugs and plunderers. why is that there are very few temples in the north when compared with south India . Though I agree that a pluralistic society is inevitable, the fact cannot be denied that Mughal influence was malefic. |
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Admin 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 188 of 381 ) From jag haS In re: Heal The Breach Of Faiths THIS IS GARBAGE. hindus need all their 3000-5000 temples alongwith akhand Bharat.There are reasons that our Sampradaya ccound not be destroed by the invaders of arab religeon in the last 1200 years (not 800). we had kings such as CChhtrapati Shivaji, Rana Pratap, Guru Govindshihji and others. They were kings and fighers to protect Hinds from the arab religeon. Are Nehru, Gandhi, pawar, mulayam, Jyoti Basu,soniya, sharad, outlook,express,times,commie and samajwadi hindus and others are going to protect my people from the terrorists ? Your point totally stupid and nonsense.If you can not look bacck the invasion history of 1200 years, keep mum and sleep. |
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Admin 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 189 of 381 ) From: satish In re: Heal The Breach Of Faiths Jha is the same guy who portrayed Osama as a Hero. As his age is progressing, his sensibility is degenerating. It is time Outlook readers are spared from reading all this crap. If religion has no links with history, then we may as well deny the birth or Jesus or the Prophet. Why deny the belief of Hindus only? |
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Admin 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 190 of 381 ) From Arushi Singh Heal The Breach Of Faiths I am born in a Hindu family but do not practise any religion. The article has very valid arguments, however, the solution provided is hardly that. A hospital, school, orphanage or any such structure would be a much more welcome building on the disputed site than any religious structure. A proudly secular and democratic country has to learn to move ahead of religion and make rational decisions. |
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Admin 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 191 of 381 ) From Cool In re: Heal The Breach Of Faiths Mr.Prem Shankar Jha, You need to understand one point. Agreed that there was no temple and a mosque was built in some century, Rama or for that matter Hinduism has been in existence since ages. The concept of Muslim, Islam, Christian are relatively kids in front of Hindu or Hinduism. What is wrong in one asserting the right to identity. Why do people like you still carry the colonial mentality and of subjugated slave selves?. I for that matter would like to assert my identity. Is it wrong? Do I do the same in any other country? Or for that matter will anybody allow it? If you look at history...almost most of eastern Europe was under Hindu rule and most of the names and surnames indiate the same. Would anybody side me if I say the whole of Europe belongs to US??? Get your funds clear. It's not question of religion or for that matter not identity but breaking free from slave mentality. |
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Admin 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 192 of 381 ) From Aniruddh Apte In re: Heal The Breach Of Faiths I agreed with most of what Mr.Jha said, but I can't fathom how he came upon the solution.How can constructing a temple at the site do anything but embolden the fundamentalist organisations like the VHP,Shiv Sena,etc.What will he say next,respect their feelings and don't celebrate Valentine's day.I think , even most Hindus can see through the VHP's game now and realise that a temple shall bring nothing more than riots and general instability to the country.Besides, no organisation has the right to speak on behalf of all Hindus,certainly not the VHP. A temple at the site will create the one thing that no Indian should want - A Hindu Pakistan. |
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Admin 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 193 of 381 ) From arun In re: Heal The Breach Of Faiths The article is very misleading in that quotes some source and says "there is no evidence that a temple was brought". There is ample archeological and historical evidence, including mention of bringing down the temple at Ayodhya, in Muslim documents. For details, one can read "Ayodhya vs Babri Masjid" by Koenrad Elst. The author doesn't even seem to have taken notice of that, and merely quotes a rather unknown source, without giving even one point in favour of his arguments. Once more Outlook has "kept its standards" |
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Admin 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 194 of 381 ) From Sam Rao In re: Heal The Breach Of Faiths A common sense approach and if I may suggest, the Indian Government can go ahead one more step by building a 'International Center for Religious Understanding' or something of the kind to reflect true Indian Character. |
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Admin 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 195 of 381 ) From laxminath Heal The Breach Of Faiths I think it's high time now that we make these muslims believe that they cannot dictate terms at the cost of Hindus. We all very well know that partition of India was purely based on religion. And I am really proud of all my muslim brothers who stayed back in India. They enjoy lot of freedom here than in Pakisthan. Thanks to our ugly politicians that they can even openly badmouth Hindus and Hinduism. The situation has come to a position where Hindus are being critised if they talk about Hinduism . But on the contrary if a muslim freely expresses his religion of faith or badmouth Hinduism, he won't be critised. Even these ugly politicians and insane media as redifined word Secularism. Secularism now means you can badmouth Hinduism and praise those muslims who badmouth it. What a pity? Why cannot these muslims understand that they can never confront with Hindus in India. Why cannot they understand the feelings of their fellow Hindus? Why cannot they understand and agree with the Hindus that there should be Ram temple there? Muslims have Mecca. For Hindus , Ayodhya is as important as Mecca to Muslims. It's supposedly a birth place of Lord Ram. Why cannot they just think good and reach some agreement with Hindus? Muslims cannot really confront Hindus in India. They were just fortunate that Hindus are more resilient, more understanding that they are not doing any harm to them. But believe me if you test the patience of 80% population of Hindus, then muslims have to be reminded of another Bosnia in India!! I am proud of Islam. I am proud of my Muslim brothers. But it's not the way to behave with Hindus in India. Everybody knows that it's the Muslim commnunity that started commnunal flare up in Gujarat. I am sad that many muslims were now being killed because of retaliation from Hindus. Why cannot Muslims be practical? You don't have political power in India. You don't have financial power in India. That means you really cannot do anything in India. It's only our good sense that allowed you to live freely all these 50 years. Still you want to be ignorant with the belief that you can do anything you want?!! Wake up! India has real good problems to tackle, not these communal tensions. India has to tackle the problems of illiteracy, corruption, over population. So, let's all unite and face these changes. Muslims really has the chance now to show that they can also contribute good to our country by resolving this issue of Mandir-Masjid. Already you are facing crisis now that your religion is being equalled with terrorism at the international level. So, it's a kind of last oppurtunity for muslims to show that their religion is really a good religion. Otherwise it will become a lost oppurtunity for them |
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Admin 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 196 of 381 ) From Naveen Kumar K.U. Ayodhya and After - Belief And History Belief and history The belief in Ram The near-certainty that the temple which stood on the Babri Masjid spot was a celebrated Ram temple, does not clinch the issue of whether Ram was actually born on that very spot. We do know that the Hindu culture, even more than most traditional cultures, has shown a tremendous capacity of preserving traditions, poetic compositions as voluminous as the Vedas, and the information contained therein. It is therefore not at all unthinkable that the birthplace of a heroic figure like Ram may have been remembered in an uninterrupted chain of tradition for several thousands of years. But then that is the maximum we can say : it is possible. However, for the political decision of whether to give in to the Hindu demand concerning Ram's traditional birth site, it is sufficient that there is a consensus among those people who worship Ram (the contention that a number of different temples in Ayodhya all claim to be the real Janmabhoomi is, upon closer inquiry, simply not true). When on October 8, 1990 fighting broke out in Jerusalem over the Dome on the Rock and the Al Aqsa mosque, absolutely nobody has stood up and questioned the Muslim claim that the Al-Aqsa mosque was built over the Prophet's footprint in the rock. No one has demanded a probe into the myth that the mosque is where Mohammed landed after a flight through heaven on a winged horse. Even when most people are convinced of the impossibility of making a footprint in a rock, or of flying on a horse, they have all chosen to respect the Muslims' belief. So, why should Hindus start proving the sacredness of their sacred places? The JNU historians have made a lot of the priority of history over beliefs. They have done this without making the crucial distinction between a theological belief of a dogmatic and anti-rational kind, and popular belief which is neither rational nor its opposite, but just a cherished convention at a different level of discourse (the mythical language game). Contd. in next |
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Admin 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 197 of 381 ) Contd. From previous A theological belief is one that is essential to the defining belief system of a given religion. In Islam, two such beliefs are central : the rejection of all gods except Allah, and the Prophethood of Mohammed. Whoever doubts these, places himself outside the Muslim fold. In Roman Catholicism, theological beliefs are declared dogma. The Council statements that formulate the dogma (and which are attributed to the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who is also present at the Councils), conclude with the statement that he who doesn't believe it, anathema sit, he is banned: non-belief in a dogma places one outside the Church. Apart from these theological beliefs that are theologically unimportant or even heterodox : concerning relics of saints, apparitions of the Virgin Mary etc. In Hinduism, no such thing as theological dogma exists. Even those teachings that indologists consider crucial to Hinduism, can be freely rejected. Thus, A.K. Coomaraswamy, as no doubt some Hindus before him, rejected the common belief in transmigration of individual souls. Many sections of Hindu society, both in India and more so overseas, have dropped the caste system, often considered a defining component of Hinduism, without being any the less Hindu for it. The belief that Ram was born at the disputed spot in Ayodhya is also not a matter of theology. It is not essential for Ram bhakti, and Ram bhakti in turn is not essential for being a Hindu. The belief in the Janmabhoomi is of the order of popular belief, and has only some practical (pilgrimage) but no theological implications. The practical thrust of the entire JNU statement is that the Hindu belief regarding Ram's birthplace should not be respected: since you give no scientific proof for Ram's being born there, you will not get your temple. Instead you may get a secular national monument, where religious rituals will be forbidden by law. If the secularists reject an arrangement that would accommodate a widespread popular belief, viz. a Ram Janmabhoomi Mandir, they should have the courage of their conviction, and take this stand wherever it applies. And they should keep up their Nehruvian habit of meddling in Israeli/Palestinian affairs. This means they should go tell the Muslims of Jerusalem that the historical fact of the Jewish Temple should have priority over the "myths" of the Prophet's footprint and of his ride through heaven. But if they prefer, Muslims' sentiments and beliefs, then they should have the same respect of Hindu beliefs surrounding a sacred place. If they fail to show equal respect to the Muslims of Palestine and to the Hindus of India, then they discriminate on the basis of religion. Which no true secularist would ever do. Contd. in next |
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Admin 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 198 of 381 ) From Naveen Kumar K.U. Jerusalem and Ayodhya In the Ayodhya debate, the comparison with the Jerusalem Temple Mount controversy has been made only sparingly. And when it was made, it was mostly turned upside down. It was assumed that in both cases, a mosque is threatened with a takeover by non-Muslims, and that is the relevant similarity. Stefan de Girval has put it this way : "(The Jews) want to rebuild the temple of Jerusalem, which was destroyed by the Romans in the first century AD. But they face the same problem and dilemma that the Hindus are facing at the Ram Janmabhoomi site." The non-Muslim communities involved in these two temple- mosque-controversies do indeed have things in common. They both have voluntarily and unilaterally set up a secular state. Their creations, upon departure of the British, were both at the same time partitions into a secular and an Islamic state. In both cases, the partition was immediately followed by an invasion from the Muslim neighbour (here there is a remarkable difference : Israel gained territory in the ensuing war, while India lost Azad Kashmir). They both live with a Muslim minority, which does encounter problems but is still treated far better than minorities in the surrounding Muslim countries. On the other hand, after their creation both Israel and India have had to receive many refugees, Jewish and Hindu respectively, who had to flee intense persecution in Muslim countries. Both communities have been persistently targeted by the same Muslim-Communist combine : Israel by the Arab-Soviet alliance, Hindus society by the Leftist and pro-Muslim Nehruvians and by the China-Pakistan alliance. But all that does not make for a strict parallel in the two controversies. The differences include the following. In Jewish theology, there is a belief that only the Messiah, when he comes, should rebuild the Temple. No such belief is involved in the Ayodhya controversy. In Jerusalem, the disputed area is a sacred place to both religions involved; in Ayodhya, the Muslims have never attached any religious importance to the site of the Babri Masjid, which was built only to humiliate the Hindus. In Jerusalem, the Muslims built their mosques in all innocence on a wasteland, where the Romans had destroyed the Jewish Second Temple centuries before; whereas in Ayodhya they most probably destroyed the temple themselves before building a mosque over it. But the most important difference is this. In Jerusalem, a sacred place of a religious community is being used for regular worship by that community, to the exclusion of members of the other community, but it is being claimed by fanatics of this other community; in Ayodhya, exactly the same situation obtains. However, in Jerusalem the tenant community is Muslim, in Ayodhya it is non-Muslim. In Jerusalem, the fanatics who want to grab the other community's sacred place are non-Muslim, the Faithful of the Temple Mount, in Ayodhya they are Muslim, the BMAC and BMMCC. |
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Admin 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 199 of 381 ) From mona sharan In re: Soft Saffron's Litmus Test Allowing the VHP to construct a temple at the disputed site in Ayodhaya and building a mosque in return elsewhere seems like a simple ready made solution. Unfortunately, this will only have the opposite effect of spawning countless other disputes over religious sites around the country. The VHP leadership has openly made claims about not stopping with Ayodhya and future plans of demolishing other mosques built on sites where they suspect temples once stood. Giving in to their demands and violent threats at this stage will only embolden them. This will not only perpetuate the culture of mindless prejudice and communal hatred they stand for, but will undoubtedly lead to other acts of violence and communal tension as witnessed in Gujarat and elsewhere. |
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Admin 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 200 of 381 ) From Sudhakar Upadhyaya In re: Soft Saffron's Litmus Test A good article with some good facts. But unfortunately, the author is trying to say that it is always the Hindus who are responsible for these kind of communal clashes, which is blatently untrue. Arent Hindus tired of all these fightings? The author seems to say NO, which doesnt make any sense. In out country, the politicians have made it look so that its a crime to be born as a Hindu. No-one supports us and thats why we have this situation in hand. When we have nobodys support, we got to take care of ourselves and that is what the Hindus are doing in India right now. But yes, the solution suggested by the author is perfect. We need to learn to co-exist. Its 21st century guys, we got to move past all these! |
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luvvmann 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 201 of 381 ) it is a fact that jha is an idiot like other communist indian journalists. most of them are mother fucking morons writing anything and everything at will with no fucking basis. they are fucking afraid of the muslim terrorists so they will not write anything against them. as for the VHP RSS and Bajrang dal they write all kinds of nonsense knowing full well there will be no retribution. let me tell this fucked up coward a few basic facts. |
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luvvmann 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 202 of 381 ) jha you idiot, you are no fucking intellectual giant with your musings. 1. it is hindus that will decide where RAM was born, not muslims. it is their decision and their religion. 2. a temple was destroyed at ayodhya and a mosque built over it. even muslims will agree to this with pride. 3. hindus destroyed the mosque so that the temple can be rebuilt. 4. it is time muslims do something to correct past wrongs and stop their communal bullshit. 5. it is time cowardly hindus like you and your communist secular benchots stop lying and act semi-intellectual. you motherfuckers have no brains. |
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Tathagat 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 203 of 381 ) appa DeepO bhava Killing in the name of god [Real Audio] : South Asia has had a history of violence, steeped in hatred, fueled by intolerance, ignited by the most trivial detail and executed with overwhelming ferocity. Why? Masud Alam explores in Meezaan, Beeb-e-Urdu Full Covergae Beeb-e-Urdu Media exaggerated riots, PM tells delegation TOI Hindu rioters 'given a free and' SMH Gandhi's dream turns into a sectarian nightmare From Rahul Bedi, in Ahmadabad 4 Irish Times SC verdict on contempt case against Arundhati Roy : NDTV.com Mobs claim `victory' in India As Hindu-Muslim riots ebb, radicals destroy symbols By Rajiv Chandrasekaran The Washington Post Published March 5, 2002 |
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luvvmann 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 204 of 381 ) all these bleeding heart hindus and muslim scularists. nothing is farther from the truth. these secular muslims will convert india into a taliban land in an instant if they had a chance. they are liars and do exactly what the koran tells them. act meek and make pacts when you are weak and then attack and kill your enemy when you are strong. mohammad did that in his lifetime. it is a classic muslim tactic. let me tell the bleeeding heart liberal hindu morons, look at bangladesh and pakistan - why are they islamic republics. why are you questioning the integrity of hindus that have established a secular india. hindus are secular and muslims are communal. that is a fact. any moron who does not understand this basic fact is a fucking fool. |
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uvwxyz 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 205 of 381 ) Secrete Mission Of BJP , RSS - http://www.webdunia.com/news/national/0203/06/1020306036_1.htm |
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Phoenix 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 206 of 381 ) luwman, i just have one question for you: WHAT IS RE-BUILDING THE RAM TEMPLE GOING TO ACHIEVE FOR INDIA? the reason i am asking this is because this issue is both national and international. shouldn't this prolem have been solved a long time ago?? why has it taken so long? and MOST IMPORTANTLY: WHAT ARE WE GOING TO ACHIEVE?? (by the way, i do support the re-building of the temple, but not the way it is being carried out, i just want to know your opinion) |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 207 of 381 ) Phoenix, Maybe you should first ask the question what the pope has acheived for catholics or what the mullahs have done for islam....the point is that the hindus DO NOT OWE AN EXPLANATION for why they want a temple in Ayodyha. Their faith tells them that Ayodhya is sacred land; period. I am sure people like you will have no problem accepting similar arguments when they are made by muslims and christians on a regular basis. |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 208 of 381 ) Excellent, now this cretin tathagat seems to think that jihadi mullahs have any authority or moral standing to talk about communal harmony. The article posted by this cretin tathagat is written by a staunch terrorist-loving jihadi motherfuker. Just go back and do a google search and read his other articles; dont take my word for it. |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 209 of 381 ) What I dont understand about bigoted assholes like Prem Shankar Jha is why dont these people apply the same standards of behavior to both hindus and muslims. When muslims commit violence against hindus, they are always justified because they have "grievances" (some of them many centuries old), but when hindus assert themselves, they are "aggravating" the muslims. This kind of double-standards are unacceptable to anyone expect the pseudo-secular third-rate pseudo-intellectual assholes who seem to infest the Indian press. |
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luvvmann 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 210 of 381 ) Phoenix, i am glad you asked that question. karapall is absolutely correct in his assessment. faith cannot be justified and need not be. it is only in the case of hindus that thius justifiction is being asked. eaxmples: mary is a virgin. can we prove it. it is faith. muhammad heard the spirit gabriel in the cave. can we prove it. it is faith. koran is the word of god. it is faith. it cannot be questioned. bible is the word of god. it cannot be questioned. it is faith. BUT ONLY HINUS HAVE TO PROVE CONCLUSIVELY ABOUT THEIR BELIEFS. The audacity of these secularists is so great that now they are denying the existance of SRI RAM altogether. who are they to question a hindus faith. that is the crucial question. |
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luvvmann 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 211 of 381 ) Phoenix, that is the problem in a nutshell. however, the ramjanmabhoomi movement is bot religious and political. to me it is a logical extension of "logic". several hindu indeed scores of them were destroyed my invading muslim armies. ramjanmabhoomi, krishna janmastahn, kasi viswanath, qutb minar complex, somnath etc. are examples. even southern temples in AP, Mysore, Tamil Nadu have been symbolically damaged and defaced. the problem is that muslims will readily admit this as the truth. it is the secular hindus and communists who want to hide the truth. |
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luvvmann 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 212 of 381 ) Pheonix, many hindus are fed up with the very partial secular setup in india mainly put into place by Nehru and the communists around him who wore the garb of congressism. these are secular fanatics and akin to muslim fanatics or hindu fanatics. the secular godless fanatics are as bad as any other fanatics be it muslim or hindu. the fact is that hindus by and large are secular. the fact is muslims by and large are utterly communal. that is the basis for confrontation. the problem at Ayodhya is not muslim versus hindu. it is mainstream hindus versus secular/athiestic hindus. the fight here is between hindus themselves. the resolution here has far reaching consequences for the country. it is a symbolic mahabharat. right versus wrong. |
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luvvmann 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 213 of 381 ) Phoenix, the right solution at Ayodhya and for India is to make a sharp u-turn and define real secularism as a backbone of indian society. not the congressi kind. it means hindus who are the backbonne of India should be given a pride of place, not insulted at every turn. these are required: 1. A common civil code for all indians. 2. reformation of muslim schooling. that means banning of muslim madrasas teaching hatred. 3. banning all religion oriented parties hindu, muslim, christian etc. 4. complete elimination of muslim terror emanating from pakistan and bangladesh. for this WAR is the only answer. there is no other go. those countries have to be wound up in their present form. 5. ruthless suppression of muslim, hindu, or sikh separatism. this cannot be tolerated under any garb. 6. the current english style parliament should be modified with indegenous democracy for our conditions. the british are monolithic and disciplined. we are not. it has to be changed. 7. sustained economic growth at all costs. this is the key. Ayodhya will determine which way the country will go. It is a symbolic struggle having wide ramifications. the 40 by 80 feet of land will determine our future, believe me. |
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shobha 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 214 of 381 ) It is , of course , easy and fashionable to blast Nehru and call everybody who is not a Hinudtwabad a communist. That is very convenient because then the debate can stop at name-calling rather than going into substance. And yes, WAR with Pakistan of course fills the heart of the Hinudtwabadis with warmth and fuzziness. The reason is not because they want a brighter future for India, but because they want "to teach pakistan a lesson". In other words they are as obsessed with the pakis as the pakis are with us. I absolutely agree. Let the Hindutwabadis and the pakis have a nice long war with each other - with nukes and other niceties thrown in for good measure. And let the others try to build a more civil and equitable society. To each his or her own priorities! And yes, as far as Ayodhya is concerned, let the court's decision serve as the solution. If our Prime Minister has to go with folded hands before extra-constitutional authorities like the VHP, then a lasting solution can never emerge, because the lesson will be that by acting belligerent you can pressure the government. So let the Hindutwabadis try to play with their facile solutions like labelling evrybody a Communist and going to war with Pakistan. Let the others try to strengthen our Constitutional institutions and to live like brothers and sisters. |
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Phoenix 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 215 of 381 ) "luwman": i want the ram tample to be built where it belongs, but honestly, to drag this issue like it has been is not the right way of doing it. it is either it is BUILT OR NOT BUILT. these long dragged out poilitics of the so called leaders and vested interests of the opposition and muslim leaders is making this simple issue very difficult. muslims hold no significance to the babri structure, i don't see what all the fuss is all about. i agree with you on that point. but on the other hand, to say that the ram temple is going to solve the problems of india is taking a big leap. we, as indians, irrespective of our differences first have to work to eradicate the three evis of our society: CORRUPTION, POVERTY & ILLETRACY only then you can say that india is on the right track of success. success cannot be linked to the re-building of the ram temple. the ram temple is only symbolic, and therefore can achieve nothing for the nation. although we have reached a stage where correcting the past wrongs of the muslim invasions is a bit futile. we cannot go on forever complaining about the atrocities of the past and dwell on that instead of looking to build a powerful Bharat. there are thousands of things that are far more important to the current state of the nation than the re-building of the ram temple. if you put things into the right perspective you will understand what i am saying. ofcourse the temple is important, but let it not be the single issue that defines the stand of hindus in India Hope you understand what i am trying to say here. |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 216 of 381 ) shobha, DO YOU EVEN KNOW the history of pakistan's inherent belligerence towards India?? Of course not. cretins like you are content speaking generalities and claiming that war with pakistan is just for boosting the ego of the "hindutwadi". Stupid whores like you need to get a clue on pakistan's intent: go read up the intelligence reports on www.saag.org or www.defencejournal.com instead of blithering on without any basis on reality. |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 217 of 381 ) Shobha, Any plans to spread your cretinous message about "belligerence" to the muslims in India, or is your message only meant for the docile hindus. |
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rav666 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 218 of 381 ) About the Hindutva 'vision' for the future that I saw here: >1. A common civil code for all indians. As in, if X community burns 58 people alive, Y community burns only 58 and not more. And if the kin of the dead from X community gets Rs.2 lakhs as compensation, the kin of the dead from the Y community ALSO gets Rs.2 lakhs as compensation. >2. reformation of muslim schooling. that means banning of muslim madrasas teaching hatred. .......while the RSS Shakas and proshakas will be preaching their brand of hatred >3. banning all religion oriented parties hindu, muslim, christian etc. All these days I couldn't understand what's 'Satan reading the Bible'. Now I do. >4. complete elimination of muslim terror emanating from pakistan and bangladesh. for this WAR is the only answer. there is no other go. those countries have to be wound up in their present form. ***Pls see point no. 7****** >5. ruthless suppression of muslim, hindu, or sikh separatism. this cannot be tolerated under any garb. ......while the hindus taking the country hostage by defying the constitution of India / Supreme court orders and doing whatever they want with a 'me-knowz-no-rulez' attitude will not only be tolerated but will be most welcome. >6. the current english style parliament should be modified with indegenous democracy for our conditions. the british are monolithic and disciplined. we are not. it has to be changed. Is this something like the Astrology / History syllabus proposals of MM Joshi? I'd like to understand 'indigenous' - would there be sants and sadhus telling our netas what rules to frame? >7. sustained economic growth at all costs. this is the key. 'Economic growth' by signing huge defence deals (for coffins, thermal imaging eqpmt and what not) that are beyond public scrutiny. Don't we know there's enough justification for our reckless defence spending? (if you don't, pls read pt. no. 4 again). In case you are wondering whose 'economic growth' are we talking about, my sympathies to you!!! |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 219 of 381 ) rav666, So you are against a "uniform civil code". Care to explain why?? The muslims ALWAYS kill hindus no matter what the hindus do, and then the assholes in the media DO NOT EVEN MENTION the fact that muslims were responsible. So tell me, what disincentive does a muslim have to not indulge in violent acts against hindus?? NONE WHATSOEVER. So according to you "muslims can kill any number of hindus and the media must cover up these acts, but hindu retaliation for such chauvinistic behavior is a NO-NO". None of these would be issues if India had a working justice system, but we all know the state of the Indian justice system. |
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luvvmann 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 220 of 381 ) shobha, you are not only an ignorant bitch but arrogant too. that is a dangerous combination just like your muslim friends are. anyway, sardar patel is what i am looking for as a role model, not the idiot nehru and assholes like jyothi basu and monkeys like yechuri and somnath chatterjee. you sem to criticise the socalled hindutva vadis, i am not sure who they are. so being christian is christianwadi and that is good, being a muslim is muslimwadi and that is terrific, but being a hindu i cannot be hindutva wadi. are you fucking stupid or what. i don't support the BJP anymore. they have turned into Congress morons. what do you think of Bukhari and most mullahs who are spreading hatred against India. how come your righteous anger is not directed against them. go get a douche and clean your dirty ass. |
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luvvmann 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 221 of 381 ) rav666, you matherchot have you lost your fucking brains you imbecile moron. you idiot the compensation in gujarat is most magnanimous. the muslim bastards don't deserve any in the first place. they roasted 58 people alive in an act of terrorism. they should be collectively punished (that is eactly what muslim law would do in saaudi arabia). muslims have different laws for muslims and non-muslims. you ignorant benchot. so, the riot victims are getting one lakh each both hindus and muslims. what is wrong with that you fucked up imbecile. the people burnt in the train an act of terrorism by muslim/pakistani fanatics. you see the difference you asshole or your fucking puny brain is too stupid to understand. |
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luvvmann 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 222 of 381 ) rav666, you fucking idiot, the RSS shakhas are not teaching hatred. have you been to a shakha any time you fucked up pig. go to a bloody madrasa and see what goes on there. why are they spouting like mushrooms all over the border with pakistan. they are dens of anti-national activity. nuke these madrasas if you want india to survive. |
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luvvmann 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 223 of 381 ) rav666, mathrchot why are you against the common civil code. giving all kinds of excuses not to support that very basic secular requirement. then you call yourself a secularist. benchot why are you so hypocritical. do you think these muslim fuckers would wag their tail in america or england. no there they are cutting their beards, hiding their muslim identity and whispering like rats. in india they behave like they own the place and show aggression at all around them. throw stones at the slightest pretext. this is because of fools like you who are cowards and do not want to confront them. fucker wake up from your ignorant and hypocritical slumber matherchot. |
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luvvmann 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 224 of 381 ) rav666, you imbecile your fucking ignorance is so acute it is hard to intelligently converse with you. you fucking empty head, india spends very little on defense. it is about 3% of GDP. did you fucker know that pakistan spends 6% and more, china and the US spend about 5% +. are u mathematically challenged you dravidian imbecile. let me tell you bleeding heart half animals that you should not comment on things you fucking know nothing about. india should double her defense spending not reduce it. the people should work in a more disciplined way to improve the economy to achieve that. then your friends the pakistani matherchots will not wag their tails. you are more stupid than i realised. |
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shobha 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 225 of 381 ) Gentlemen who have adorned me with canine epithets and other incestuous niceties are proving to be a most refined bunch of debaters. The Muslims will through a process of churning and debate evolve a better personal law. There are clear signs of this happeneing. The last thing they need is self-righteous advice from Muslim well-wishers like these gentlemen. I would pay greater attention to the calls for a Uniform Civil Code if I was convinced that they came from people who were really concerned about Muslim welfare. Since the majority of those making the call also make their real bias abundantly clear (thankfully) , their demand should be treated with the contempt it deserves. Separate laws for Muslims gives these gentlemen sleepless nights not because they are worried about secularism or Muslim women or anything- they toss and turn at night over this issue only because it thwarts their idea of a Hinduized uniformity. They cannot enforce that kind of fascist uniformity - hence their frustration which reveals itself concealed in innocent protestations for secularism. |
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shobha 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 226 of 381 ) Those so desirous of truning Muslim law upside down are of course usually the ones least concerned about ridding Hindu society of its myriad evils. Their voyeurism of Muslim society through telescopes and microscopes renders them oblivious of the dirt in their own perfect Hindutwa. |
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Phoenix 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 227 of 381 ) "shobha" -- i am begining to like your train of thought. you are neither neutral nor do you take sides. you speak to the point and make precise arguments, which make these macho tough talking guys falter in their paths. i wouldn't mind communicating with you with issues such as these, please free to email me at: originalsixtynine@yahoo.com look forward to your reply! |
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sshyam 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 228 of 381 ) We should rise above rubbish that politicians push down our throats.Why cant the muslim community come together and build the temple ,while hindus build a mosque for them. That can be an example for the world and make ours a truly great India i.e.,Bharat |
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rav666 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 229 of 381 ) luvvmann, the 'intelligent' conversation that we are having is becoming monotonously predictable (yawn). For a change say something different, say something sensible. Reg. uniform civil code - the affected parties strictly speaking are the Muslim women (because of polygamy, divorce laws etc.) and anyone else raising this issue (not to mention the Hindutvawadis) is clearly doing it to score brownie points against the muslim community. There are disadvantaged segments in every community - the Dalits, the widows, victims of the dowry system and so on, if you want me to give examples from the Hindu community. And, as seen in the case of dalits and others, no amount of legislation can help as the injustices can happen and are happening on the sly. When the affected parties get educated and become assertive, they will demand being treated equally, and uniform civil code will emerge by realization, not by forcing it down like a Saraswati Vandana shloka. Reg. defence spending, you might have realised about others' stupidity before realising your own. My point was not about the % of GDP etc etc (that is a topic for another discussion), it was about the CORRUPTION in defence spending. (phew) |
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Tathagat 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 230 of 381 ) appa DeepO bhava Now, Buddhists stake claim to Ayodhya site By Vinay Krishna Rastogi in Lucknow 4 sify.com/news Buddhists in Uttar Pradadesh claim that the disputed Ram Janmabhoomi-Babri Masjid site belongs to them. The All-India Scheduled Caste and Scheduled Tribe Federation and the Lord Buddha Club have decided to become party in the Ram Janmabhoomi-Babri Masjid cases pending before the Lucknow bench of the Allahabad High Court on the ground that there is a large "Baudh Mahavihar" at the site where Babri Masjid was built. The federation has threatened that 200,000 Dalits would prevent Ram Sewaks from performing Kar Sewa on March 15. General Secretary of the Federation Jagjivan Prasad said the artifacts and stones carved in Pali language recovered after the demolition of the Babri Masjid on December 6, 1992 prove that the disputed site was a Buddhist Vihar. The federation and the Lord Buddha Club are demanding a thorough investigation to ascertain the ownership of the site. The two organisations have also decided to file a writ petition highlighting their demands. Prasad claimed that since 1991, several cases in this regard are pending in courts. In 1991 a writ was filed by wife of Babasaheb Bhimrao Ambedkar, Savitri Ambedkar while another was filed by Mahadeo Maurya. If the Muslims and the Hindus continue to adopt a belligerent attitude, the Buddhists, too, would be compelled to go to Ayodhya to construct a Baudh Vihar, he said. He said that the Chinese traveller Huan T' Sang who visited Ayodhya during the time of Emperor Chandra Gupta Maurya has written in detail that there were 100 Baudh Vihars in Ayodhya. Claiming that Buddha was worshipped much earlier than Lord Rama, the federation alleged that Hindus demolished many Baudh Vihars. It is an irony that today there is only one Baudh Vihar in Ayodhya while there are as many as 6,500 temples, according to municipal records. The federation has demanded imposition of ban on VHP for instigating communal violence in the country. |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 231 of 381 ) Shobha, You seem to think that the Uniform Civil Code is some sort of prize that must be granted based on certain characteristics of the population. Maybe you should have paid attention in school....then you would have known that most functioning developed countries have some form of a uniform civil code, and there are excellent reasons for doing so. Mainly because it simplifies the judicial process by having fewer laws to clarify. Your ignorance is only outstripped by your wanton smugness. |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 232 of 381 ) rav666 seems to entirely miss the point that the Uniform Civil Code will actually help all the cases because whether it is a muslim woman fighting a talaq case or a hindu women fighting an inheritance case, the whole confusion arises because these civil laws are basically unjust to some parties. The Uniform civil code just codifies this justice so that the standards for behavior are clear and precise like they are elsewhere. |
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luvvmann 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 233 of 381 ) rav666, you imbecile fool. you want to hide your hypocracy about the uniform civil code and then you lie about your assertion on defense spending. fucked up fools like you belong with the pigs. 1. a uniform civil code is essential you idiot. not because i am against muslims or christians because i believe in it. it isa sign of modernity and progress. england, japan, china all have had class systems and caste systems. these countries have adopted a common civil code. the only reason we do not have a common civil code is because of pampering by nehru and gandhi. sradar patela nd ambedkar (a dalit) had warned against this provision. materchots like you and bitches like shobha in their infinite hatred for hindus are distorting facts. |
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luvvmann 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 234 of 381 ) rav666, as for defense spending you fucker have no clue. you probably don't know what india spends on defense, you obviously had no idea about percentage of GNP etc. fucker, peace comes thru strength. america defeated the former soviets just by increasing defense spending. that devastated the russian economy. we need to do the same with pakistan you shit head. pakistan is 7 times smaller than india. why does it misbehave with india, it is precisely because of morons of your calibre and bleeding heart sluts like shobha. let me tell you imbecile moron, that the pakis are out to get india at all costs. we have to finish them off before thay do us. it is a simple case of survival. but puny bastards like you do not understand that basic fact. |
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luvvmann 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 235 of 381 ) rav666, let me tell you something. it is nothing personal. u may even like me if u ever meet me. it is the ideas that i abuse. things have gone too far in india. we are approaching a civil war as in 1947. thanks to our congress party and stupid bleeding heart selfish hindu cowards. |
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nirmal00 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 236 of 381 ) Why do Hindutva zealots hate Gandhi and Nehru ? For centuries, the upper castes had a great time suppressing the vast majority of lower castes and making the lower castes work for them practically like slaves. Gandhi and Nehru changed that system and brought about democracy. So the lower castes have more power than ever before. That is what they really hate about Gandhi and Nehru. All other reasons are just smoke and noise |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 237 of 381 ) The irony of the so-called secular asshole being totally against a fundamentally secular policy, i.e., common civil code, is not lost on most outsiders who study India's society. It is only the leftist commie assholes who seem to think that India will do fine without a common civil code. Indians will pay for these mistakes with their lives, I only hope that most of those who do get killed when the time comes, are the pseudo-intellectual, "Secular" elite. |
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sherano 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 238 of 381 ) let them buid a temple but who could guaranty that there won't be any more Ayodhya's followed by Godhra's and communal madness. As long as we are divided, we won't see India as a world power. |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 239 of 381 ) sherano, The responsibility lies in the hands of the muslims to not explicitly antagonize hindus at every turn. Ayodhya is just the beginning of a long chain of escalating hatred among the hindu and muslim hardliners. Make no mistake about it. All the numbnuts who are in charge of the Indian media seem to think that appeasing the muslims will result in social harmony, but that assumes that hindus wont begin hardening their views given the uncompromising antagonistic stance of the muslims running the AIMPLB and AIBMAC and the other insects like Imam Bukhari and various assorted islamic terrorist-loving scumbags. |
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sshyam 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 240 of 381 ) People seem to think they can make a better arguement by using expletives.Show you capability by better points and reasons. |
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perfect 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 241 of 381 ) this is free speech mr. sshyam. using expletives bring about true emotions... anyway, continuing some above mentioned points- the movement for ayodhya or the so called movment by hindu fundamentalists was basically in retaliation to the minority appeasement policy followed by most political parties. ayodhya started when SHAH BANO case ended. that was the proverbial last straw. |
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luvvmann 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 242 of 381 ) nirmal BIGZEROZERO chutiya, let me educate you a little if that is possible. the socalled hindutawadis (i dont know what that is) do not hate gandhi and nehru because they liberated the underclass. who the fuck told you that gandhi and nehru liberated them. the dalits will spit on your rotten ugly face for that statement. nehru was hell bent on his name panditji (brahmin connotation. are you ignorant or a moron or both, i suspect both. the term harijan is an insult to the underclass. they are not any more harijans than others. all peole are harijans every one of us. the socalled lower class movement is a natural evolution of contemporary history. many dalit leaders have come up with Ambedkar leading the pack. infact, ambedkar specifically urged the dalits not to convert to islam. he knew the kind of results that would generate. he advised them to adapt buddhism if they felt more comfortable doing that. infact, ambedkar along with patel knew that peace could prevail in india if muslims left for pakistan. today they are creating trouble as expected. nothing new about their behavior. |
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topcat 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 243 of 381 ) South India should secede! The North Indian states are riddled with fanatics and criminals in politics. These states have lowest human development indicators in the country while the southern states(Kerala, Andhra, Tamil Nadu and Karnataka) have the highest. Problems such as killing of Sikhs, Muslims, Ayodhya, Kashmir, Pakistan, China, Assam which are bleeding the country arise because of the stupid barabrians living in the North Indian states. The Southern states have for 50 years ended up using their resources to pull these North Indians heads out of their asses. Now it looks like that is not going to happen. So the only alternative available to the four Southern states is to form a separate confedaration and secede from India. |
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harisank 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 244 of 381 ) All politicians should stop thinking on this AYODYA issue and be banned from influencing the religious leaders from both sides. (Hope this could be implemented. This is a MUST as the politicians are the only breed who benefits from keeping the issue without a solution.) Then the religious leaders would deliberate the merits and demerits of each other's claim and come to a conclusion. Both sides know very well that the religious sentiments need to be soothed and sensitively addressed and the solution would emerge automatically. A tangential solution is also recommended as follows. The site has to be handed over to the Archeological society of India for deep excavation with a view to find any signs to indicate the site's history. After reaching a depth of say 25feet, if there is some indications, the decision should be taken accordingly and if nothing is available, the site should be made into a lake or some water reservoir for use for the public. |
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sshyam 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 245 of 381 ) I left India quite a while ago,and do not know much about the ground situation.While I am given to understand that Muslims are against common civil code, are they not fighting for a seperate criminal code ,where they will be punished by their holy book for criminal acts.It would be interesting what is their opinion on this matter. |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 246 of 381 ) sshyam, excellent question, shyam. And the answer is that muslims DO NOT WANT the islamic criminal code to be imposed on them, 10 points for guessing why. This attitude in the minority community where they seem to think that they can obey a mixture of laws in the Quran and in the Indian constitution. This is just ridiculous. |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 247 of 381 ) harisank, That assumes that the muslim leadership is willing to make peace with the hindus. The fact is that they are not. The muslims have openly said that they are not sensitive to beliefs of the hindus, because they believe that the mosque is important BECAUSE it was symbolic victory of islam over hinduism. Enough said. |
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batyar01 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 248 of 381 ) I was working in Saudi Arabia in 1998 in Riyad. The general attitude of the Saudis was great. In my dealing with them I felt very much at ease. At one stage I expressed my desire to visit their Holy places Mecca or Medina. But they will not allow me to do that because I was not Muslim, no non-believers are allow to visit even the places which has some religious significance in Saudi Arabia. Barber came to India as an invader he constructed a mosque at a place where Hindu apostle Ram was born. We want Muslims in India to agree to construct a temple at that place, and have a mosque at a little distant from the spot. Instead riots are created killing and burnings They should be reminded why they don't allow a non Muslim even a visit a religious place in Saudi Aribia. Not to speak of constructing a temple or a church at place were Mohammed was born |
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luvvmann 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 249 of 381 ) i agree with perfect and sshyam. perfect, it is absolutely correct that hindu patience has been eroded by the appeasement of the muslims in particular and minorities in general by the congress and communist parties. it is time for the hindus to take up arms if necessary to fight a decisive battle. war begets progress. only countries that win wars prosper. forget gandhian bullshit. it does not apply in india of today. |
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luvvmann 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 250 of 381 ) sshyam, you are absolutely correct. the hypocritical muslims want a personal civil code so that they can continue marrying four times and more and also suppress women and waste time preying 5 and more times a day. nearly every modern country has common civil and criminal codes. only theocratic muslim countries have laws for muslims and non-muslims. they discriminate against non-muslims openly. our secular matherchots are lying thru their teeth all the time. sardar patel and ambedkar warned nehru and gandhi that pandering to muslim bullshit will bring disaster to the country. it is now happening. |
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luvvmann 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 251 of 381 ) sshyam, it is only reasonable that if islamic laws are so great then why have only civil laws, why not criminal. the fcat is the matherchots are afraid to implement muslim criminal laws. all these muslims who shout about the greatness of islamic laws suddenly cannot find words for their criminal laws. the bluff should be called. muslim criminal laws should be introduced in india ala saudi arabia. after all no muslim could oppose this right. in reality the fuckers will shudder in their dirty pants if musli laws are introduced. hypocracy has reached new heights in india. who is responsible for this , not the muslims. it is the stupid gandhian hindus , nehrus cowardly chelas,and communist apes that are responsible for this. Hindus wake up and fight a bloody battle to clean india of these monstrous benchots. |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 252 of 381 ) India has a hindu majority that is being screwed by the so-called "intellectual" commie brigade/kaangreswallahs. The hindus need to violently confront these assholes before anything emerges. If all goes well, the crappy state known as India will cease to exist and give rise to some muslims theocracies where people are a lot less self-loathing. Hindus deserve to be screwed for their blase attitude about their own future. |
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nirmal00 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 253 of 381 ) The message numbers refer to the 'Terrorists at NCERT' discussion .But the topics dont really belong there. **luvmann post 93** **infact, i agree with a lot of what you said. not all of it. 1. no body is disputing the greatness of gandhi. we are disputing whether this philosophy is relevant today with muslim extremism. ** Good. And I agree that non-violence wont work against Islamic extremism. Did I preach non-violence ? my response is the following. There is no excuse for what happened in Godhra. If you can find the people who did it, lock them inside a train and burn them. But killing innocent women and children in Ahmedabad and looting their shops is not 'legitimate reaction'. Or do you say that since 'revenge' has been done there is no need to investigate Godhra and punish the perpetrators anymore ? **why dont you have the guts to preach this non-vilence to the americans. i do not support the killing of innocents in gujrat.** As I said I dont support non-violence in this case and thats not what I'm preaching. I'm trying to say that India should uphold the rule of law and be civilized. And if you feel that Muslims behave in a medieval way, the answer is not to say that Hindus also should behave in a similar way. **the question here is why is the media silent about hindu deaths. why is the conbgress party not stalling proceeding because hindus died. are muslim deaths only important. give me your answer.** I'm not sure that the media is silent about Hindu deaths. But we didnt have time to see how everyone reacted to Godhra. The retaliatory killings started next day and everything was focussed on that. I didnt say that only Muslim deaths are important. ---------- **luvvmann post #94** **nirmal00 idiot, you obviously have not read my postings. i have repeatedly ridiculed the hindus for their cowardice. ** Good **the present day political scenario is the same. the congress party and now the BJP has joined those ranks are responsible for the current chaos. ** You seem to have only criticisms, any suggested solutions ? **you have mentioned gandhi and nehru and then bracketed patel. that shows your bent of mind in not acknowledging the greatness of patel. it shows your bias. the fact is patel was musch greater than nehru anyday.** Patel died in 1950. He played a very important role in the integration of the country, but other than that he didnt play an important role in independent India. So even if you say that circa 1950 Patel's contribution was more, the fact that Nehru lived for 14 years more changes things. It is probably true that the Congress appointed historians probably pushed Nehru too much and portrayed him as a man who could do no wrong. But I think the BJP/RSS attempt to show that Patel was a greater man is just a reaction to the pushing of Nehru by Congress. Also the role he played in Somanth makes him their favourite. Infact I dont think this Nehru vs Patel debate is even relevant here. |
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nirmal00 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 254 of 381 ) The message numbers refer to the 'Terrorists at NCERT' discussion .But the topics dont really belong there --------------- **luvvmann post #95** **if hindusim is so bad, go live in saudi arabia. with all its faults hinduism is far superior to islam any day of the year. are you telling me that muslim countries are your ideals. ** Did I say that Muslim countries are my ideals ? No. And they are not my ideals either. BTW, although I was born a Hindu I'm not religious. But if I'm arguing with a Muslim or Christian about whose religion is better I'll do my best to defend Hinduism and find the faults in theirs. But I think the point here was to look critically at Hinduism. And it doesnt hurt to do that. **saudi arabia, pakistan, afghanistan, sudan, et al. let me tell you buddy that the socalled ills of hinduism are present in all religions. ** You are right. If a Muslim tries to lecture me about caste system in Hinduism and Islam's superiority, I'll be only glad to point out that slavery existed in Arabia under Islam. And how women are treated in many Muslim countries and what not. Same goes for America - they have their record of slavery, etc. And if someone tries to preach to you the superiority of Western civilization you only have to point at Hitler's extermination of Jews. Infact I think the debate about which religion is better is pointless. The followers of all religions are eager to point to the good things about their religion, and about the bad things they say it is not 'true Islam' or 'true Hinduism' or whatever. **the caste system was not created by hinduism. it was absorbed into into. are you telling me that the thousands of communities in india were created in hinduism. india is a muticultural, multi linguistic,and multi ethnic racial country. no other religion could have done a better job.** You're probably right. But then Hinduism is not a religion like Islam or Christianity. ---------------- **luvvmann post #96** **i strongly disagree with you about who created india. only foolish morons like you think that the british did that. ** OK, I dont want a debate on this. Everyone knows that Hinduism was a binding factor for most of the region between the Himalayas and the Indian Ocean. And there were many empires (Hindu and Muslim) before the British, which covered vast areas of that land. **even the british acknowledged the influence of india in southest asia and called it indo-china. india's influence was far and wide before the decay of hindu and buddhist culture.** You're right. But how is that relevant here. Are you saying a future India should include the South East Asian countries also ?! **may i remind you fool that thousands of buddhist monks were slaughtered in nalanda by the muslims. ** OK **i have already accepted the selfish nature of the hindus and the cause for their downfall. that does not make muslims greater than them. ** The Muslims who are now in India have actually more in common with Hindus in India than the Arab-Muslims whether they realize this or not. **the resaon the muslims won was due to several factors - hindu selfishnes, hindu disunity, hindu cowardice. that does not mean all hindus are like that. do not overlook the good points about hindus either.** OK, I agree. |
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nirmal00 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 255 of 381 ) The message numbers refer to the 'Terrorists at NCERT' discussion .But the topics dont really belong there --------------- **luvvmann post #97** **even though india was ruled by kings and princesses and nawabs, it was one entity culturally, historically, and emotionally** I dont buy that entirely. Hinduism is a common factor. But even in this case, the practices and customs in the South are different from the practices in the North. Even the holy places are different. Even though the people in the South are aware of the North Indian holy places I dont think they care too much. The places like Tirupati, Madurai, Guruvayoor etc are more important. Yes, the Ramayana and Mahabharatha are still the important stories. **several great kings ruled most of india as one single entity many times in history.** I agree. Not whole, but large parts. **inter marriage and biradari were common from kashmir to kanya kumari.** No I cannot agree with this. You mean to say that South Indians used to marry North Indians 1000 years back or 500 years back. ----------------- **luvvmann post #98** **you are a hindu hating foolish ass.** I'm not a Hindu hater. I'll defend Hinduism when I'm arguing with someone from another religion/culture. But I think it doesn't hurt to look at one's religion critically. ** the mistreatment of lower classes in india is historical in nature, a result of mixing of several races and cultures. it is unfortunate and condemnable. ** It is good that you accept that it is unfortunate and condemnable. But there are many who try to defend it. Trying to say it is based occupation etc. Such reasoning may have been valid before, but I dont think it is valid today. **actions are being taken to aleviate the situation. today india is ruled by the lower classes socalled. from UP to Madras in every state the lower classes rule. ** Why do you say UP is ruled by lower classes ? It used to be BJP, and I dont think Rajnath Singh belongs to backward class. Yeah, SP or BSP may get power in the coming months. **let me tell you moron, inspite of what happened in Gujrat where hindus and muslims killed each other (it was not a one way street), india is far more civilized country than any fucking muslim country you can name. ** Being a Hindu/Indian I'll agree. But as I said the argument about who is more civilized is pointless. And you're right - millions of Muslims have been killed in Muslim countries by other Muslims in the last 100 years. But the point here is to make sure that the same doesnt happen in India !! |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 256 of 381 ) nirmal, good arguments, but you seem to look past the main issue, which is that the current trends of the "secular" politics in India is to reap the fruits of communal discontent at election time. None of these issues would even matter if the congressw wallahs did not deliberately create riots for their political reasons. Check out this article which claims that there is a poster of Kalota, the prime accused in Godhra, thanking the congress party for helping him win the post. http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/mar/12train3.htm |
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rkbhuyan 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 257 of 381 ) Let's say one attacker comes to Delhi and destroys India Gate and build another structure on it. That means he is trying to destroy our symbol. After he defeated/leaves, what should be our response. To rebuild India Gate to remove the scar from our heart. If some Indian's disagree what should we say? Similarly Babar and other invaders destroyed our temples to weaken our faith. Now it is responsibility of each Indian (including muslims) to rebuild and restore the self respect. So the temple should be built there. Of couse it shouldn't result in killing of innocent people. Prem Jha has made prudent suggestion in this regard. |
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Divya 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 258 of 381 ) this is the rational reasoning behind the insistence of building the Ram Temple in Ayodhya. I completely agree with rkbhuyan. |
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Divya 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 259 of 381 ) Ayodhya is one of the most sacred places of worship for all hindus..just like bethlehem , mecca and jerusalem for other religions , hindus have kashi , mathura and ayodhya as the most important places for worship! if they have been destroyed by invaders (their intention being to undermine and make the hindus feel inferior and defeated)..i think it is a duty of all Indians to rebuild those pillars of religious importance. Does anyone ask for proofs why mecca is where it is ? Though not required, there is still thousands of pages of documentary evidence for the rebuilding of the Ram Temple at Ayodhya..when evidence was asked off from the other side of the table..the so called experts and representatives had disappeared only to return after years with hollow arguments and their so called secular agendas! Its a national shame that there are still people who believe that the symbol of invaders and slavery should stay for all Indians to cherish rather than re-building of the temple of the most cherished Lord among hindus all over the world! |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 260 of 381 ) Divya, Excellent points, and something you should spread around to people in your generation. Unless hindus understand how they are being abused by the laws of their own country, they are doomed to being second-class citizens in their own country. |
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Phoenix 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 261 of 381 ) The famous English woman philosopher Dr. Annie Besant also had much praise for India, as written in the cover notes from the book, Hindus, Life-Line of India, by G. M. Jagtiani. Her words put great emphasis on the value of India, its history, the Vedic culture, and its importance to the world. She says: "After a study of some forty years and more of the great religions of the world, I find none so perfect, none so scientific, none so philosophic, and none so spiritual as the great religion known by the name of Hinduism. The more you know it, the more you will love it; the more you try to understand it, the more deeply you will value it. Make no mistake; without Hinduism, India has no future. Hinduism is the soil into which India's roots are struck, and torn of that she will inevitably wither, as a tree torn out from its place. Many are the religions and many are the races flourishing in India, but none of them stretches back into the far dawn of her past, nor are they necessary for her endurance as a nation. Everyone might pass away as they came and India would still remain. But let Hinduism vanish and what is she? A geographical expression of the past, a dim memory of a perished glory, her literature, her art, her monuments, all have Hindudom written across them. And if Hindus do not maintain Hinduism, who shall save it? If India's own children do not cling to her faith, who shall guard it? India alone can save India, and India and Hinduism are one." |
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firosbf 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 262 of 381 ) there is no evidence that shows that Ayodhya was the birth place of Rama. there is no problem for the muslims to hand over the site for constructing the temple. but what is preventing them from doing it is the fact that the VHP goons are already out there showing the list of some mosques to be pulled down and build a temple there, eg Mathura, here too there is no evidence that shows that krisha was borne there. If temple is allowed to be built in Ayodhya, communal elements will gain ground and ask for more. If such thing wont happen, nothing would happen to Muslims. The majority right thinking Hindu people dont care about a temple, so do the Muslims about a mosque there |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 263 of 381 ) firosbf, SO tell me, you muslim fuk, what is the PROOF that mohammed ever existed?? That's right, the quran says so, right?? Similarly, hindu scriptures identify Ayodhya and Dwarka as the birth places of Rama and Krishna. So muslim assholes like you should ask yourself why your claim of the Quran being the repository of truth any different from the hindus claim on the veracity of their religious texts. I am sure you know this bit of deliberate double standard on your part; you cannotbe a true muslim if you did not have this double standard. |
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pmishra2 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 264 of 381 ) The main issue is respect for rule of law. There is a court case. It needs to be respected. If the supreme court is not respected, then nothing can be respected. All religions are based on sacred stories. Claiming that this or that cannot be proven is a waste of time. Hindus believe that Ayodhya is a sacred city (one of seven I believe). This needs to be respected. People who poke fun at Ram or Krishna or some other aspect of hindu culture are barbarians. If you look at Islam or Christianity, you will find just as many astounding things (more from my point of view) some of which are downright illogical and nonsensical. I agree that Islam and (to an extent) Christianity has behaved in a contenmptible way towards Indian and Hindu culture. This was the case because Indians had become technologically and economically backward. This is no longer true. The destruction of hindu/buddhist temples throughout North India is a great tragedy. Islam needs to distance itself from this defilement and take a proper position on it. This would be similar to the Pope apologizing to the Jews and aboriginal peoples for the behavior of the catholic church. Unfortunately, Islam today is an extremely backward religion with very little understanding of the modern world. Hence, no such acknowledgement is likely to take place. At the same time Hindus need to accept that this destruction was far in the past and that Hindu and Indian culture is much stronger today with much to be proud about. |
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Ratan 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 265 of 381 ) Let us not be abusive. All religions are primarily based on faith and not proof. Would other religions give up their religion if their so called theories were proved wrong and have no scientific base or proof. 1. Bible says World was made in 6 days by God and he rested on seventh. Nobody objects to this belief, though we know it is humbug. Will they throw away Bible if proven wrong! 2. Mohammad was supposed to hearing Holy Quran from God himself during trance so it is treated as the final word of God. Where is the proof? 3. Where is the proof that 10 commandments were handed over to Moses on the mount!! I can give a whole list of such beliefs. So, please, do not bring up this point of proof again. My dear Muslim friends are making a big mistake by trying to toy with the deep faith of Hindu community. Re: Mathura - the janmasthan of Krishna is a hole in the wall of the mosque. Howesovever large the temple, what does an ordinary Indian feel when he visits the site? He remembers the 'zulm' of Aurangzeb. Why do our Muslim brothers wish to rub the point in and remind Hindus of this? So, understand dear, we are not asking a place in Mecca and Medina but in the the cradle of Hindu civilisation. It would be good for Muslims to help Hindus forget the atrocities of those rulers rather than talk of rule of law and let wounds fester. |
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joy 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 266 of 381 ) Yaar, Make love not war. Let Muslims believe their ridiculous scriptures, let Hindus believe in theirs. Lets avoid raking up five-hundred year old issues. Too many important issues are at stake.Pyar badhao. |
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joy 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 267 of 381 ) Let us all agree to disagree and leave in peace. sarve bhavantu Sukhinah , Sarve santu niramayah. |
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joy 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 268 of 381 ) Khudi ko kar buland itna ki har takdir se pehle khuda bande se khud pucchhhe bata teri raza kya hai. Yaar ye maar pit se kya hoga? Ram Mandir banao, hazaron banao, usi jagah ke peecchee kahe pade ho? Do not try to limit Ram to a few square feet , yaar. Prem karo - krodh ko shant karo- indriyon par vijay pao - sab kuchh theek ho jayega. |
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joy 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 269 of 381 ) Yaar , Ram ka message phailao duniyan bhar mein. Shanti lao. Ram ka naam lene ke sath sath kaam bhi Ram-compatible hone ko mangta ki nahin? Violence chhodo, violin bazao - pyar badhega. Ideological divide ko prem se khatm karo - chaloo aur garam rhetoric se nahin. |
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u980474 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 270 of 381 ) How come the Hindus always have to be restrained? It is our land and we must reclaim it. Why are the so called secular parties crying foul? Where were they when the Sabarmati Express was being burnt with tens of women and children on board? Why do the Hindus always have to take things lying down. Clearly Ahimsa seems to apply only to us Hindus! Would the muslims have easily given up a land if it had religious significance to them? I think not. It is time for us Hindus to reclaim what is ours in a land that belongs to us. |
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joy 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 271 of 381 ) Yaar , Ram ka message phailao duniyan bhar mein. Shanti lao. Ram ka naam lene ke sath sath kaam bhi Ram-compatible hone ko mangta ki nahin? Violence chhodo, violin bazao - pyar badhega. Ideological divide ko prem se khatm karo - chaloo aur garam rhetoric se nahin. |
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u980474 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 272 of 381 ) Joy, The hindus never started the violence. It was the muslims remember. Is bare main tum kya kehna chahte ho. Hum to shanti se kaam kar rahe the jub muslims ne attack kiya. |
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joy 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 273 of 381 ) Yaar tumhari baat bhi sahi hai. Lekin retaliation mein Muslims ko marke phayda kya hua? Train-burners ko pakadke prosecute karte aur yato phansi dete ya long sentence dete. Aur isko khoob publicize karte. Cycle of violence kahin to bandh hone ko mangta. |
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joy 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 274 of 381 ) Yaar tumhari baat bhi sahi hai. Lekin retaliation mein Muslims ko marke phayda kya hua? Train-burners ko pakadke prosecute karte aur yato phansi dete ya long sentence dete. Aur isko khoob publicize karte. Cycle of violence kahin to bandh hone ko mangta. |
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miscos 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 275 of 381 ) I agree with Mr. Jha that a consensous is the only way out for a solution to The Ram Jamambhumi Temple. Ours is a democratic country and a country which has a rich heritage. Civilisations come and go, but the heritage remains. It is though painful but true that before the structure named Babri Maszid, there was a temple on the site. Let us not find fault with any of our anchestors, but any wrong done by them can be changed to right. Let us build a Temple of Indians and call it Ram Temple on the site. VHP and Imam should understand that. |
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miscos 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 276 of 381 ) I agree with Mr. Jha that a consensous is the only way out for a solution to The Ram Jamambhumi Temple. Ours is a democratic country and a country which has a rich heritage. Civilisations come and go, but the heritage remains. It is though painful but true that before the structure named Babri Maszid, there was a temple on the site. Let us not find fault with any of our anchestors, but any wrong done by them can be changed to right. Let us build a Temple of Indians and call it Ram Temple on the site. VHP and Imam should understand that. |
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Josh007 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 277 of 381 ) The muslims have no problem in handing over the Babri Masjid site to VHP/RSS/ BJP or whoever it is. But what they want in return is an assurance from the governement and the parties (RSS/VHP) that they will not claim any more masjids. But unfortunately VHP is already making noise about other masjids. So if the muslims budge this time, then there is no way they can stop it next time. So the ball is in the Sangh court. If they want "Ram Temple", they can give an assuarance to the muslim community that they will not claim any more masjids and have it their way. |
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gsurya 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 278 of 381 ) Prem Shankar Jha is just another example of our short-sighted and increasingly intolerant middle class. Just because he can write politely doesnt make him any less of a fascist. Babri Masjid stood for 4 centuries. How much back do you want to go back in history to correct so called wrongs ? When does the "statute period" expire? Is it 4 centuries or 10 or 20 ? How much back in the past do you want to go to correct so called wrongs ? We should draw the line at 1947 when our country was "really" born. We should build a secular, neutral and a sombre monument where the Babri Masjid stood, that is a historical archive and a library at that location to remind us forever about how we alomst went down the path of religious fanaticism and self-destruction. The Ram temple can be build on the adjacent land in absolute and total spendour. Think of what a great international tourist and religious destination that would make Ayodhya. Even I would consider praying there. |
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nip 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 279 of 381 ) Prem Shankar Jha uses a host of ingenious expressions like Soft Saffron (whatever that may mean) to hide his real ideological bent. See that is why I like people like Singhal( even if I don't agree with him) , and I hate people like Jha and Vajpayee. I mean , what is Jha thinking? That those who read his columns will somehow be hoodwinked? At least his columns will be more informative if he expresses his real opinions , rather than going through the tortuous steps of clothing them in more benign attire. |
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nip 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 280 of 381 ) Middle-aged windbags passing a lot of gas should at least make sure that the gas takes the form of a coherent philosophy, not opinion meant to please everybody and hurt nobody. Such journalism is worthless. |
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Tathagat 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 281 of 381 ) appa DeepO bhava Bajarangii on the rampage in Orissa... Indian ISI at its best... but even New York!!! Hindutva activists halt screening of Patwardhan films in New York : VIDYADHAR DATE in TOI ...the whole idea behind the whole movement... is 2 toorn this Buddhadesh into a 'Brahmin Rashtra' from the backdoor... they can't change the constitution... as Javed articulated on NDTV... that after 70 years of propaganda... they still need 21 crutches... tathagat use2xpress it this ... that they've been parading in khaaQi knickers4 70 yrs... and never managed it there on their own... which they never will... 4 Arabs describe them as a Hindu party and B a Hindi (northern) party... ...only brahmins are hindu... and they are less than 4% of indian population... CNN2Kuldeep nayyer talks about 80% hindus... that is mis information and a CON hundreds of millions tribals knows no religion... never heard the word... ) Hindus a very small minority here... |
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safize 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 282 of 381 ) u r right josh.and if the muslims hand over the masjid now in the name of goodwill then they can be sure they have been suicidal.people like advani and singhal dont understand goodwill.they are accustomed to mistake it for surrender.and then when they go after the other two masjids whats the prob with the muslims?if they can give away one masjid surely the other two would be no special that they cling on to them,right?in the 'interests of the nation' and for 'amiable communal atmosphere'muslims have to give up, that is what people would say.make no mistake.its better to die one honorable death than die a thousand cowardly deaths.whoever said this would have advised muslims today not to give up the masjid. |
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bobby_f 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 283 of 381 ) Only the RSS/BJP saffron bandwagon has gained political mileage from the Ayodhya issue. And they are the only losers if the Ayodhya Issue is resolved. What makes Mr. Jha believe that the RSS/BJP/VHP will stop after the mosque site is handed over to them, the temple constructed, and the issue resolved. Their popularity is bound to fall by the next election, and if not, the next, and the only way they seem to know to seek votes for is by raising another communal issue. It could be the Mathura temple/mosque complex, or it could even be Mother Theresa’s Missionaries of Charity(of which their opinion is already known). (And for certain, the other political parties appear to be cashing in on the other side, by supposed concern for the Muslims, and at the same time, hiding behind judiciary to avoid a pro-minority image). Can Mr. Jha explain why and how these riots and tensions are so precisely timed with elections and so delicately synchronized to climax after the results. ( And isn’t it understandable that the Kar-sevaks booed the Mahant and Mr. Singhal when the current stand-off climaxed). Does it take the CIA to tell who instigated the Gujarat mobs, and who is defending these butchers, and how many votes these people are going to get in the next election. If someone is sure that resolution of Ayodhya will satisfy the political hunger of these people once and for all, than Mr. Jha has THE solution. Otherwise, Ayodhya is just a symptom of what lies ahead, and consequently, it is not the solution. What is required is an intellectual campaign to de-mask these power-thirsty barbarians, and a collective will to remove the moral decay of the society. We need leaders who can awaken the half-asleep peace loving Indian, and tell them what lies ahead. We need history lessons about Hitler and Mussolini, about Hitler’s fight to power, about his rule in Germany, and its subsequent demise, and about what most Germans think about him today. Till that point of time, I dread the thought of these barbarians coming to rule, and proposing what is right and wrong. And the thought that I have to approach them for justice. Scores of lives have already been wasted. No doubt it needs to be stopped. Neither is there any doubt that it will not stop ‘after’ Ayodhya. Think of what needs to be done to stop this inhuman tragedy. Think, using your mind, and than if you are still undecided, use your heart. In any case, solutions that do not address the key issue, are not even worth being called a solution. |
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vishwam 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 284 of 381 ) To, The Editor, Times of India, New Delhi-110001 Dear Sir, The Prime Minister of India needs a session in secular credentials of his own office. Otherwise why would he say that the Mandir would be built only if the Supreme Court gives its judgment in favor of Hindus. Sir, I as a Hindu do not wish to belong to this group as my Ram will not come to place, which has shed so much blood in his name. Let the PM clear this statement, as a vast majority of Hindus do not support this vote-bank political cause. Moreover the PM should apologize to the nation for this sectarian statement. Yours truly, Sudhanshi Vasudev |
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mumbai02 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 285 of 381 ) Islam in the holy land Saudi Arabia's religious police stopped schoolgirls from leaving a blazing building because they were not wearing correct Islamic dress http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1874000/1874471.stm |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 286 of 381 ) joy, Agreeing to disagree is not good enough. Muslims claim that my existance as a non muslim offends them. Nothing short of removing such bigoted muslim vermin from this planet will make things better for the rest of us. |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 287 of 381 ) vishwam, Then move out of India and become a muslim, you brainless hindu snotbag. I am sure you will start to appreciate islam a lot more when they shoving dates up your nether end. |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 288 of 381 ) bobby_f, Christian motherfukers like you should understand that Ram holds a place in hindu hearts like Jesus does for cretins like you. So, be a little more sensitive, you pseudo-secular scumbag. Go preaching about that bitch Mother Theresa to someone who give a shit (Read Christopher Hitchens book on Theresa's strategy of "saving souls") |
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Prem 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 289 of 381 ) Prem Naam Hai Mera, Not Chopra. Karapall, I see. So you plan to exterminate all the 185 million or so Muslims in India at least? I mean I shudder at whatever passes off for "thinking" among pour Hinduttva brethren that if ISI was behind Godhra they are teaching them a lesson by killing muslims so they won't do it again. Who are they kidding? ISI Agents would look at each other and say, "Shucks, plan flopped, chal ghar chal?" ISI doesn't care about Pakistani muslims, what would it care about Indian muslims? So who is the lesson being taught to? The gaddar Indian Muslims who are ISI sympathisers and if they are not, will now not be? Why do they assume that they would suddenly now start cowering instead of getting more defiant and bitter? In the end would they all, like, go away to Pakistan or convert to Hinduism or become sudden believers in their Hindu-past loving Muslims that the sangh khandaan will then become gallant and protective about? And these muslim politiicians -- like a good liberal Hindu, I think I shall just refuse to say anything about them. But maybe I also need to work myself into a lather about their shenanigans. |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 290 of 381 ) Prem, No, I recommend no such thing, and I dont have to be involved to see the inevitable. Unless muslims in India reform themselves to be truly secular, they will increasingly choose to portray themselves as victims, with willing support from the media. It is a short step from such muslim sentiments to call for separatist jihad, and it wont be the first time either. |
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Prem 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 291 of 381 ) Prem Naam Hai Mera, Not Chopra. Karapall, I am intrigued by what you claim above. Should we not ask the likes of Hindutva lumpen in Gujarat to get "truly secular" and find the perpetrators of Godhra instead of systematically killing muslims and vandalising/robbing their properties? If I were a Muslim, I would be calling for a separatist jehad if I saw all Muslims being targeted because some muslims were behind the ghastly murder and mayhem at Godhra. How would one feel if all Muslims or anybody else started hating one only because some Hindus (how dare they call themselves that!) were behind the pogrom in Gujarat? How did we feel when we heard about the brutal killings in Godhra? I can speak for myself -- my first reaction was that whoever had done it was no friend of Indian muslims or India in general. And if VHP/Bajrang Dal call themselves patriotic, their first priority should have been to ensure that there were no "revenge" killings. And to have gone about catching the perpetrators of Godhra in a systematic and focussed manner. I would have been all for the Hindu/Indian cause then. Heck, I wouldn't mind being on the side of the VHP or the Bajrang Dal for that kind of a cause, but their subsequent behaviour makes me even doubt about their ability to think straight. |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 292 of 381 ) Prem, You are right about muslims taking up jihad sooner rather than later,if the hindu right-wing does not get its agenda. I also know that the bone heads in the hindu right-wing are playing right in to the hands of the pakis by inciting mind less violence against regular muslim civilians. The paki strategy is to both feed muslim fundamentalism, and the nen sure a fracture in India'spolity. Now, the paki shave taken at a ctical retreat right now,but they will continue with their terrorism in India for as long as the paki military control pakistan. Again,Godhra and it saf term a thare irrelevant, because they wont be the last communal riots to happen in India.The questionis: will the next riot be worse than this one,or not. |
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Prem 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 293 of 381 ) Prem Naam Hai Mera, Not Chopra. Karapall, Now you have totally lost me. "If the hindu right-wing does not get its agenda," the Muslims will start a jehad, but if they do, all will be hunky dory? I mean, can you please elucidate? So the VHP/BAjrangis/Shiv Sainiks et al should be allowed a free rein in killing, pillaging, hectoring, terrorising because that would stop the jehadis? Pray, how? |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 294 of 381 ) Prem, I was not proposing a solution which you will realize if you read my message again. I am just analyzing the behavior of these groups based on their past history and past behavior. The singleminded rigidity of the VHP can also be found in the muslim leadership. Given the violent tendencies of the hindu and the muslim right wing, I believe that the VHP will not slither away if it does not get the temple at Ayodhya. (of course, given that hindus are a spineless bunch of cowards in general, I hope I will be pleasently surprised when they do slither away, but I wont bet on it). Given this context, if the muslims start their jihad as a result of the VHP's actions, the spiral of violence will escalate, and in addition the hindu right-wing will be increasing their membership. The reason for the increase in their rolls is that law and order is non existent in India, and as it is people from all backgrounds have no faith in the Indian justice system, which has failed all Indians no matter what their background is. And India does have 4 hindus for every muslim, so even if the VHP gains the support of 0.1% of hindus, that still amounts to a staggering 1 million people!! Pakistan has a similar number of muslim nuts and they have no chance in hell of reining them in. Of course, given the general tendency of the Indian government to let problems fester until they become crises (I am referring to kashmir, punjab, and the pakistan problem, and the ayodhya problem which has been a problem for 5 decades), I have little hope that the impending escalation of communal violence will be stopped by any govt., present or future. As they say, things will get a lot worse before they get better, IMO. |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 295 of 381 ) I noticed that the RSS had made a statement that muslims depend on the goodwill of the majority, which is a truism not just for muslims or for India. In any country, the minorities live in peace because they respect the sentiments of the majorities. Note how muslims in the US are switching to christian names because christians view US muslims with great suspicion after sept 11. If minorities abuse the hospitality of the majority as the muslim leadership does in India, one can expect a retaliation in the form of boycotts or communal violence. (US muslims are changing their names because they are marginalized by american society if they have muslim names.) The difference between them and the boneheads in the hindu leadership is that christians in the US have quietly made up their mind that jihadi muslims are a threat to their existence, and view every muslim as a jihadi. (Now, this is clearly stereotyping but there is no way to control the reaction of the christian majority in the US, unless the press lies to the public and whitewashes the crimes of muslims as they do in the Indian press.) Kosovo is one example where the serbs turned murderous after the KLA started its separatist jihad. My point is that muslim separatist jihad in India is impending, not least because of troublemakers from pakistan and bangladesh slipping through the porous borders in the north east. Add vote-bank politics and incompetent journalists who publish any rumour as "news" and you have a disaster waiting to happen. But then everything in Indian life is a disaster waiting to happen, so maybe it is an "indian thing". |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 296 of 381 ) Well said, maky. The commie morons on this forum indulge in brainless rhetoric with no basis in reality. They are in fact singlehandedly responsible for hindu baiting, and dont give a damn that hindu baiting is not good for India's health in the long run, not least because hindus happen to be a majority, albeit fragmented, in India. In any country, the minorities live in peace because they respect the sentiments of the majorities. Note how muslims in the US are switching to christian names because christians view US muslims with great suspicion after sept 11. If minorities abuse the hospitality of the majority as the muslim leadership does in India, one can expect a retaliation in the form of boycotts or communal violence. (US muslims are changing their names because they are marginalized by american society if they have muslim names.) The difference between them and the boneheads in the hindu leadership is that christians in the US have quietly made up their mind that jihadi muslims are a threat to their existence, and view every muslim as a jihadi. (Now, this is clearly stereotyping but there is no way to control the reaction of the christian majority in the US, unless the press lies to the public and whitewashes the crimes of muslims as they do in the Indian press.) Kosovo is one example where the serbs turned murderous after the KLA started its separatist jihad. My point is that muslim separatist jihad in India is impending, not least because of troublemakers from pakistan and bangladesh slipping through the porous borders in the north east. Add vote-bank politics and incompetent journalists who publish any rumour as "news" and you have a disaster waiting to happen. But then everything in Indian life is a disaster waiting to happen, so maybe it is an "indian thing". |
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nirmal00 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 297 of 381 ) Karapall, Where did you read that Muslims in US are switching to Christian names ? |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 298 of 381 ) nirmal, Today's HT has a headline article. Here is the link. http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram /210302/dlfor16.asp |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 299 of 381 ) People who might entertain notions that the VHP folks are clever and resourceful might have to reconsider given that the VHP morons now claim that Vajpayee is "anti-hindu". These VHP jokers have no clue about which side of their bread is buttered, and they deserve all the contempt that is heaped on them. |
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Phoenix 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 300 of 381 ) karpall -- i do not like your tone and profanities you spew on this MB, but to be honest, we need people like you that make these pseudo-secular/cry-baby-politicians/too-scared-to- do-anything/dirty-trick-playing/minority-appeasing type bastards awake and take notice of the reality!! |
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Phoenix 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 301 of 381 ) karpall -- i do not like your tone and profanities you spew on this MB, but to be honest, we need people like you that make these pseudo-secular/cry-baby-politicians/too-scared-to- do-anything/dirty-trick-playing/minority-appeasing type bastards awake and take notice of the reality!! |
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sshyam 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 302 of 381 ) The best way to resolve the dispute is,to cut up the 60 odd acres of land into 5 pieces.Auction off the land, each parcel at a time ,starting from the futherest part(the land furtherest to Babri site).Each piece will be auctioned off giving a 6 months time so that all fundoos can raise funds.The last being the original disputed site.That way the govt can make plenty of money and buyer,taker..lose weeper |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 303 of 381 ) Good idea, sshyam. Unfortunately, money earned by the Indian govt. quickly vanishes, so I doubt if the Indian public will win in the end. |
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joy 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 304 of 381 ) Yaar , good discussion. I have heard RSS has a new dress-code for Muslims. Please give me info as I want to earn lots and lots of Hindu goodwill. |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 305 of 381 ) joy, For pussies like you, a miniskirt+tanktop and sign on the back that says "take me, I am a brainless coward" would be the most appropriate attire. |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 306 of 381 ) People who would like to check out islam's tolerance can go to www.orst.edu/groups/msa/quran Thi s is a muslim site maintained by a muslim. Now check out the following Quranic verses for their "tolerance": (sura:verse) 5:51 -- ....not to make friendship with jews and christians... 2:19 -- "kill the disbelievers wherever we find them" 9:5 -- "fight and slay the pagans, seize them, beleaguer them and wait for them in every stratagem" 9:123 -- "fight them on until there is no more persecution, and religion becomes allah's in its entirety" So much for islamic "peace and tolerance", eh, pooja. Why dont you find similar verses in the new testament for me, you lying, murderous muslim vermin. |
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mumbai02 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 307 of 381 ) Quran quotes The following shows chapter 9 of the quran so anyone can read it in context. http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/ 009.qmt.html Here is the web site from another university. [Quran 9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the infidels wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. [quran 9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book(Jews and Christians), until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection. [quran 9.30] And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away! To read the full context, you can find the translated text of the Koran at the following website... http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/browse.html Quran: [5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people. ----------------------- I wont take something written 1600 years ago very seriously. But the question is do Muslims really believe all the above ? Do they think they have to follow the Quran (and all the above) to go to heaven ? |
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luvvmann 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 308 of 381 ) it is my suggestion that the koran should be compulsory reading in indian schools. that way the hindus can see for themsleves the glory of this book, and the terrorist manual that it is. |
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rajivm99 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 309 of 381 ) I donżt belong to the Sangh Parivar, who have criminally made Ram mandir a pawn to achieve their selfish motives. I am an ordinary religious Hindu, who feels aggrieved not so much by the Supreme Court judgement but by the lack of sensitivity and grace shown by the Muslim community. They have pushed my faith, that Ram was born at Ayodhya, to be decided by Supreme Court. Something which my mother told me. Right from childhood every Hindu is born with stories which place Ayodhya to that religious status as the Muslims have for Mecca. Yet the Muslims have become instrumental in humiliating me by disputing my faith, forcing me to go to the court to get it established and by not letting me have puja in Ayodhya as I want. They could have won the hearts of the majority community by showing the grace of leaving Ayodhya to Hindus and they had the rest of the country to build mosques. On the contrary by being possessive about a mosque built by an invader who has the historical record of destroying temples, they have driven a wedge between the two communities for all times to come. Sadly, in one stroke the Muslim community has lost friends even in the liberal but religious segment of Hindus who will never forgive them for this humilation in their own country. For God sake, people like Javed Akhtar should read this piece and act before it is too late really. R. Mahajan |
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luvvmann 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 310 of 381 ) joy, for you the best dress code is a sherwani and chudidar with a big hole where your ass is. that way pigs and animals can fuck you and make you stop singing stupid bhajans. |
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luvvmann 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 311 of 381 ) rajivm99, your pathetic appeal to the muslim community is heart rending. are they human beings that will heed your call. sorry my pathetic hindu, your entire premise is wrong. the sangh parivar is not criminal, it is the muslim matherchots in the BMAC that are criminals (shahabudd et al.). the congress banchots and the communist rotten fish heads are the criminals. then we have pathetic hindu individuals like you crying for your ayodhya. now that you know that the muslim sare being assholes what do you do about it. you don't ask for what belongs to you - you take it by force. common sense will not work here. only force will. either the muslims vacate ramjanmabhoomi, krishna janmastan, kasi vishwananth, and qutb minar (quwwat ul islam ) mosque or they should be taken over by force. i urge the bajrang dal and the VHP to occupy these temples forthwith. |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 312 of 381 ) mumbai, Let me provide some more sites which have translations closer to the ones I provided; clearly the site you provided is doing a lot of whitewashing and creative interpretation for obvious reason. In any case, many of these quotes are from an article by Pervez Hoodboy in "Free Inquiry", which is a secular humanist magazine. Pervez is as much to the left as anyone in the Indian left. |
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joy 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 313 of 381 ) Luv bhai aur Kara bhai, krodhit mat ho. Luv bhai, aap ka naam Luv hai, lekin kaam aapka nafrat bhara kyon hai? Pyar badhao. Kara bhai, go to the Himalayas yaar, and meditate , and attain moksha. |
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mumbai02 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 314 of 381 ) Why Quran contains uncharitable comments about other religions - It is probably the youngest compared to the other major religions (Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, Buddhism). So its founding text has to explain to its followers and others why Islam is better than other religions. A situation that many other religions didnt face. For example - Hinduism developed in India a few thousand years ago independent of Judaism, Christianity etc. So the Vedas or other texts of Hinduism dont contain anything specific about other religions. Islam developed in Arabia in the midst of other religions, hence the harsh comments. Any opinions ? |
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Phoenix 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 315 of 381 ) check this out: muslimsonline.com/babri/babrimaq.htm muslim s have shown nothing but contempt and arrogance in face of hindu faith and emotion. they have their mecca and jerusalem! the seven sacred sites of sanatan dharma MUST BE RETURNED to hindus a.s.a.p, this will go long way to ensure communal harmony and mutual trust; although militant hindus and muslims should also be curbed in order to make this happen! |
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sunila 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 316 of 381 ) The Babri Masjid is of no particular importance to the Muslims. While the Ram janam bhoomi is the centrepiec of hindu Dharma, being the buirht place of Ram. So muslims should view everything dispassionately. As long as Muslims are percieved to be a threat to Hindus in India, communal harmony can never occur. Giving up this disputed place which is worshipped as the birth place of Ram since centuries will prove to be a solution. However Hindus must then swear not to raise any other disputed site issue. While people like imam bukhari, Amar singh,Mulayam singh Yadav and Shabana Azmi and maybe even Arundhati Roy who are bound to create a stir about this solution should be arrested under Poto and then peace will porevail. |
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joy 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 317 of 381 ) Yeah Sunila , right you are ! Are you Muslim by the way? |
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luvvmann 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 318 of 381 ) Sunila has made valid points. Certainly a reasonable person. |
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Nosweat 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 319 of 381 ) Sunila has made a truly outrageous remark but has found enuf backing that just shows the plight of the Indian civilastion itself. Does the soil at some part of the earth mean so much to someone as life itself? Dont people realise that wat the VHP is doing is outrite barbarism. They claim to represent the Hindus of India. They dont represent me nor do they represent every educated person I know. Wat has gone into faith that disturbs humanity? Its time to drive away the evil spririt and coordinate our thoughts in a more rational manner. |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 320 of 381 ) Nosweat, Dont you realize that you are too stupid to tie your shoelaces or otherwise understand the history of violence? (that was a rhetorical question, so dont bother replying) The white race found out LONG AGO (a few centuries ago) that the name of the game IS about occupying as much land as possible and grabbing as much resources as possible. In fact, pieces of land and bright shiny metal have ALWAYS been more valuable than human life. There is a reason why whites control three out of five continents, and why hindu dipshits will be driven from their own homeland, be it Uganda, Kashmir, or India. Because hindu dipshits STILL have not understood that cooperation and unity of purpose is necessary to grab land AND TO KEEP IT, as is evident from the islamic jihadi terrorists in kashmir and elsewhere. |
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joy 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 321 of 381 ) Kara bhai, when are you writing your first book? So much knowledge must surely spill over into tomes that will guide our country through dark times. |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 322 of 381 ) joy, With your poor reading skills, you will not be able to parse or understand my tome when it is published. I suggest you forget about it and go back to playing doctor with your neighbour's kid in the toolshed. |
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Nosweat 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 323 of 381 ) The problem is not about acquiring land the problem is rather about considering it as important as one human life or rather in thsi case a 1000 lives. Over the years people have come into India which undeniably is a Hindu land but that dosent mean that such atrocious treatment should be meted otu to them. It is true that Guests are like fish and begin to smell after three days. But in this 'choiceless' situation why not create the choice of coexistence? Fanatics will be fanatics and rationalists will be rationalists. Aldous Huxely's essay about the induvidual and crowd comes to my mind at this moment where he differentiates between the crowd and the induvidual..Unfortunately for us India today behaves as one large crowd lacking the presence of the induvidual. We are either Hindus or Muslims, Sikhs or Christians, and RELIGION HAS LOST IDENTITY. The above mentioned names seem like rather large groups like the BJP or Congress itself. |
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sunila 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 324 of 381 ) I have a feeling that my remarks have raised the hackles of a few idiots here. Nosweat, whaz wrong with being frank? While Babar may have a reason for coming to India...probably to spread islam and conquer, we are today in a situation that Hindus cannot even worship Ram at his birth place. Please remember that Ram janam bhoomi is as imprtant to Hinduism as mecca is to muslims. So if muslims think dispassionately then giving up an old collapsing structure where no worship ever takes place is no big deal. Infact they shuold themselves offer it to Hindus, rather than take a confrontation on it. Right now the need of the hour for Muslims is education, emancipation of women, family planning and killing all stupid terrorists which drive a wedge between muslims and other religions. But maybe they need someone like swami vivekanand to guide them. unfortunately they are being misguded by Osmas and Mulayam singhs and imambukharis of the world who have their own axe to grind..... |
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vishag 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 325 of 381 ) Think of future and release all the Three places 1)AYODHYA 2)KASHI 3)MATHURA FOR DEVOTEES. I would have done so if I had been born in an islamic family.Unfortunately I am not.I wish I should have born AN INDIAN MUSLIM , I WOULD HAVE LED THE AYODHYA AND KASHI AND MATHURAS ANDOLAN MYSELF. That would have strenthened the country enormously. |
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vishag 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 326 of 381 ) Prem Shankar Jha argues right. |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 327 of 381 ) vishag, If your suggestion was implemented, the VHP would have ZERO issues to recruit more Indians to its fold, but then that would mean actually solving this problem...and WE CANT HAVE THAT, can we? It is a lot better to have issues that will smoulder for ever, so that "secular" parties have a solid plank from which they can garner more "secular" votes. |
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safize 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 328 of 381 ) u are wrong karapall.if this problem is solved,u say the vhp 'd be left with no issues.haven u heard of places like kashi and mathura,sir?and 3000 other godforsaken places dotting the nation like dormant volcanoes ever ready to explode in full fury? |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 329 of 381 ) safize, That is very convenient, isn't it? You refuse to recognize the importance of Ram Janma Bhoomi to Hindus, and try to cover up your bigoted intransigence with a veil of "but we would be setting the wrong precedent". Devious bastards like you have no intention of letting some heathen god take the place of allah in Ayodhya. And scumbags like you would like to come and tell me that hindus would not stop with Ram Janma Bhoomi. Here is news for you, asshole: if muslims show that they are willing to build bridges with the hindu community, then no temple movement after ayodhya will find public support. But if you bastards go down the current path of confrontation, you will lose more than just ayodhya. No matter what chickenshit justification you give for deliberately pissing on the religious sensitivities of the hindus, popular movements such as this have a life of their own.... |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 330 of 381 ) http://headlines.sify.com/815news3.html All you stupid hindu bastards should note this. Muslims say that a mosque once build can never be removed....but of course a temple can not only be destroyed, a mosque must be built over them to show them polytheist stone-believers a thing or two. Wow, such secularism!! |
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luvvmann 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 331 of 381 ) safize matherchot, some fucking stinking mullah who probably has never bathed in his life came up to the liberhan commission and said that once a mosque is built it cannot be moved. if that is the yardstick you stinking asshole what about the thousands of temples the muslim fanatics destroyed. what should we do to those mosques that have been built illegally over temples you swine. my answer is move all of those mosques away or demolish them. come to your senses matherchot. what applies to the goose applies to the gander. if the mullahs and the muslim fanatics don't change their attitude there will be a civil war in india. fuck the stinking mullahs. |
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mind 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 332 of 381 ) luvvmann---chinal ke...randi ke...., islam is the youngest of all world religion..and we invaded and ruled 50% of the earth..and even now...we have 52 nations..and a 2 billion population..u mother fucker u cannot do 1% of what muslim did..even in todays modern world we fucked and it really hurt the mighty state of america..if ur thinking that u have won the battle by just killing womens and childrens it is ur wrong preseption..wait and watch for the right hour..even if 20 crores muslims are slaughtered no problem..but they will will give nightmares...it will surely change the geography..we will first cut the hinduvta-dick..into pieces..hehe... |
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mind 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 333 of 381 ) lovvmann---teri maa ki choot., listen---me.,use ur common sense., it is too late..we are 20 crores..and not possible to digest them..u cannot spit nor swallow...tumhari gand mein atke howey hain...20 crore..and we have enough population to fight & die for our cause..islam spread due to 1300 ppl..and we have 1300+...hehe..ek adivice le free mein..to know the mentality of 2 billion ppl ...just to know not for conversion...read our holy book...tu udhna band karke...like a stupid coward shouting behind the screen... |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 334 of 381 ) mind, mind if I jump in..of course you dont.. other than the unique distinction of spreading around the planet like bacteria, what other claim to fame does islam have?? Has it EVER in the past century resulted in a society that is egalitarian and forward thinking?? No, you islamists have demonstrated yourselves a bunch of barbaric troglodytes who have little else to claim other than your insane rate of breeding. You are pathetic, violent fools with no good intentions towards the rest of humanity and must be wiped out with extreme prejudice before you end up hurting the rest of us who are trying to our best during our stay on this planet. |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 335 of 381 ) mind, let me repost some of the violent gems, here are the Sura:verse 3:85 (if anyone accepts a religion other than islam (submission to allah), never will it be accepted of him.... 4:78 whereever ye [infidels] are, death will find you out, even if ye are up in towers strong and high 5:51 ...do not make friendship with the jews and the christians 2:191 "kill the disbelievers wherever ye find them..." 9:5 "fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them..." 9:123 "murder and treat the disbelievers harshly" No wonder you are stupid and violent turd since you have been brought up on this violent barbaric trash. I am sure your uncle Osama Bin Laden would agree with all your views. |
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luvvmann 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 336 of 381 ) mind, tera nam galat hai suwar. mind ke badle mein "mindless" rakhle, chutiya. gandu, tu meri bath sun. thu bewakoof hai. tere se muh lagana bewakoofi hai. too suwar ke aulad hai, musharraf ki gand chaat le jaa. |
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safize 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 337 of 381 ) mind ,u have spoilt the party man.the only one who used language that u use was ur punchbag luvvman and his comrade karapall.and those two were good examples of the rot called hindutva.why have u joined them sir? |
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luvvmann 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 338 of 381 ) mind (useless mind), there are one billion muslims in the world, not 2 billion. your response is an indication of your secret dreams. break hindustan up. i know you well. let the others know you too. |
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sal 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 339 of 381 ) Luwman - the "bandit queen" of the message board!!! And "Kalya" (the little fellow called karapall) always to the rescue of his "queen"....how sweet... :) Nice couple... hahahaaa!!!! Are you two fruitcakes married???? - to each other I mean.... seriously... |
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mumbai02 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 340 of 381 ) mind post #333 "luvvmann---chinal ke...randi ke...., islam is the youngest of all world religion..and we invaded and ruled 50% of the earth..and even now...we have 52 nations.." Do you think having the Muslim population divided into 52 different nations is an advantage ? Most people would think that instead of dozens of nations with small populations, one nation with a population of 300 million would have more clout and influence. "and a 2 billion population..u mother fucker u cannot do 1% of what muslim did.." Muslim population is not 2 billion it is probably around 1.2 billion. "even in todays modern world we fucked and it really hurt the mighty state of america" May be that is why most Arabs still think Israel's Mossad planned the September 11 attacks (they say Muslims could never have pulled off something like that) and that 4000 Jews stayed away from the WTC towers on Sep 11 ? BTW, Muslims had an impressive civilization between 10th and 15th centuries. I think everyone knows that they have not been doing very well recently. |
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luvvmann 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 341 of 381 ) mumbai, thanks for the corrections to mr. mind the mindless. obviously this highly ignorant individual is stuck in the past. however, i have to add that though islam did spread rapidly through military conquest and conversion, only two countries defied islam successfully. Spain kicked them out (fully successful), and India (partially successful). All others succumbed to islam. the highly refined persians were converted by force. now they are the most fanatic, isn't that an irony. arabs were never geat culturally, but, the conquered people were in persia, byzantium, and central asia. that is why islam seemed to achieve so much in a very short period of time. however, the mongol invasions pretty much decimated islam and it's greatness. the end of islam is now in the beginning stages. the world will not put up with muslim arrogance and belligerence any longer. they are at the mercy of greater powers. the end of oil in the middle east will ultimately nail the coffin of belligerent islam. |
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GAYATHRI 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 342 of 381 ) www.cry.org/you/youcando.htm Lord Rama's fame grew by not fighting for the Ayodhya throne, but by disowning it in favour of his father's promise. If he had to go to the forest for his entire life, he would have done it. Our founding fathers decided that we would be secular nation. After these riots, it would be an insult to Lord Rama if we built him a temple in Ayodhya. I say this as a devotee of Lord Rama. VHP and Bajrang Dal DO NOT represent even humans leave alone Hindus. |
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luvvmann 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 343 of 381 ) GAYATHRI, thank you for being so secular. looks like the secularism bug has bitten you. by the way if RAM was being followed by the people of india, like you, we would not have to rebuild the temple. the temple would not have been destroyed in the first place. the people would have defended their country and culture with honor. the fact that RAM was not in the minds of people like you, that Babar succeeeded in his demolition. you do not represent RAM any more than the bajrang dal represents the hindus. it is cowards like you who see one side of the picture to suit your stupidity, are the real problem. our "socalled" founding fathers did not decide that we should be a secular nation. they put what was fact on paper. it is hindu tradition to be secular not the congresswalas. it is the total hindu mind that is secular, not yours. that does not mean that hindus should give up what belongs to them. if you are such a fan of secularism, answer me. 1. do you think muslims are secular 2. why did you not condemn godhra 3. why did you not condemn the genocide of hindus/sikhs in kashmir 4. why did you not condemn the terorism of pakistan in kashmir 5. why did you not condemn the muslim league, the majlis, the MIM, the anjuman, the al qaeda and a hundred others who are fanatics. do you have amnesia. are you afraid. do you want to sound civilized. or are you trying to show off. which one is it. the VHP is absolutely correct in it's demand for the return of temples destroyed. you are wrong by a mile. |
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GAYATHRI 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 344 of 381 ) www.cry.org/you/youcando.htm Only one question, how many of our Hindu brothers who raped and killed the muslim women in Gujarat would have married a raped Hindu woman from Godhra or elsewhere Answer from your heart. And in reply to M.Luwman, half of the world's poor live in India. You will realise whether you we need a temple or to take action against this when you starve. And for the record I condemn violence irrespictive, sex,religion,and caste. Funny I have never read you condemning dowry deaths (by Hindus or Muslims). Why dont you check the internet to compare and see how many died in Godhra and how many women die per day due to dowry. Did you know a woman dies every minute by while giving birth and thats the only figures thats not improved. Thats maternal mortality and suprised to know India has highest rate of maternal mortality. Instead of scoring ego points with me and others why dont you click on a hunger site. Every SECOND there is a starvation death in this world. Do you want causes to write for I can tell you more |
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GAYATHRI 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 345 of 381 ) www.cry.org/you/youcando.htm Luwman bhaiya I honestly don't know if Muslims are secular. But I do know they are human beings. Lets not chat about burning people so callously. Try drinking 3 drops of hot water in name Lord Rama and then write about burning others. |
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luvvmann 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 346 of 381 ) gayatri, your bleeding heart is very touching , so is your dishonesty. you are neither compassionate nor secular. you are a product of misguided feminism that is discredited all over the world. even women are rejecting it. you are criticising the dowry system because you think it is "hindu" in nature. you have the arundhati roy syndrome. well if you are so concerned about dowry deaths and women dying at childbirth (two totally unrelated isssues to the topic under discussion)then why are you not concerned about the treatment of women among muslims. are women treated well in islam. are they better than in hindu society. you have failed to address yourself in a comprehensive manner on that subject. the killing of women and children at Godhra was a communal incident. just because dowry deaths exist (in isolated areas) and because women die during childbirth has absolutely no bearing on the discussion. |
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luvvmann 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 347 of 381 ) gayatri ben, you said you honestly don't know if muslims are communal. that is the most "dishonest" reply in your posting. that is an outright lie in my opinion. you know full well that the muslim community as a group is utterly communal. you just don't want to say it. if you are a ram bhakt utter the truth. i neither love the muslims nor hate them, i neither love the hindus nor hate them. i love my family and my country. i understand the pain of those killed and raped. but my pain is not one sided. i have warned repeatedly about this. muslim communalism aided and appeased by the congress party/communists will spell disaster for the country. i have provided possible solutions. i am not a wild eyed communalist. i myself have a composite hindu muslim culture. i believe in being a hindustani, not hindu or muslim. but, the threat cannot be glossed over, reality cannot be ignored, the truth cannot be suppressed however painful. punish the godhra perpetrators, punish the rioters after that. i have absolutely no problem. |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 348 of 381 ) GAYATHRI, So what is your point, if you actually have one?? hindus are a bunch of uncivilized brutes and muslims are the salt of the earth?? No one on this board has been involved in the mayhem in Gujarat, so quit the sermonizing. |
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_cyanide 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 349 of 381 ) |
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jbindra 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 350 of 381 ) We shall overcome. Temple or Mosque ? It has been the age old question since I saw the daylight. Supposing the temple is rebuilt, is Mr. Luvman and his kind willing to help reconstruct all the damage they did in Gujarat ? Will you not foment further violence to promote your political proteges ? You see the question is not about the temple, the question from all members of the Indian society is, what will it take for people like you to shut their gob and allow peace to prevail. Everyone has differences, not only based on your religion. Brothers and sisters may have differences and grow apart. Should they yield trishuls and swords and hack each others head off ? Diversity is the treasure of the Indian nation and we live by reconciling our differences. People like you think that you may succeed but it is only so in the short term. Peace and prosperity is what everyone wants and soon everyone will realise that the way to get it is by accepting one another the way they are and not by hating and killing each other. Jai Hind |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 351 of 381 ) _cyanide, "The issue won't be resolved by letting everyone shout that their religion is the greatest. Diplomatic measures will be far more effective..." Are you suggesting that third countries involve them in India's internal politics, asshole?? Do be more elaborate, I am sure all Indians would like to hear of your "diplomatic" initiatives against India. |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 352 of 381 ) jbindra: "You see the question is not about the temple, the question from all members of the Indian society is, what will it take for people like you to shut their gob and allow peace to prevail. " Clearly, removing religion from politics (via a common civil code) and removing incentives (or adding penalties) for political parties to play the communal card. Not to mention more stringent standards of ethics for Indian journalists, including the "secular" saints who moonlight as journalists. These answers are being provided by many people sick of all this religion crap, but do "secular" turds like you even bother to listen and evaluate? |
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luvvmann 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 353 of 381 ) jbindra, your ignorance is only surpased by your stupidity. sermonizing won't help. we have been doing that since gandhi's days. stupid idiots think that the issue at ayodhya is about building a temple or mosque. the issue there is not temple or mosque, that is only symbolic. the issue is whether the path chosen by the secular politicians is real secularism. the beauty you talk about in diversity is an indian concept and a hindu concept. don't preach to a hindu about it. there are many bad things about hindus, and many good things. as far as ayodhya goes the VHP is absolutely correct. the muslims should get out of major temple complexes that they damaged and destroyed during conquest (long time ago). this will go a long way in forging national unity. the existence of pakistan has caused a doubt about their loyalty. it is legitimate. a gesture will explode in goodwill. also, open condemnation of jehadi activities will further solidify national unity. muslims are misled by their mullahs and the congresswalas. the real enemies are these two - mullahs like bukhari and leaders like sonia gandhi and mulayam singh. leave it to the poor muslim and hindu on the street, they will make the right decision. ayodhya is not about a temple, it is about india's future direction. don't be stupid. |
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_cyanide 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 354 of 381 ) Karapall, Sorry, but your abuse has taken no effect on me, call me an insensitive brute, or a wise ass who knows which moron's comment to ignore. As far as being diplomatic goes, I understand that you know nothing more than just jumping to conclusions, without thinking otherwise. No one is talking about involving any other damn country into our own troubles. When I say diplomatic, I mean in a subtle manner, avoiding un-necessary bloodshed.. Get it!? |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 355 of 381 ) _cyanide: "When I say diplomatic, I mean in a subtle manner, avoiding un-necessary bloodshed.. Get it!?" My apologies for the rant. I have seen other Indians ask for international interference in Gujarat, such as the cretinous Anita Pratap and some muslim leaders, to just name a few, so I jumped to the wrong conclusions. |
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shahid 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 356 of 381 ) What a fool this luvvmann is and he calling names to others. By his posts it is quite clear to me that he is from Gujarat, possibly from Ahmendabad. There is also sufficient chance that he may have been part of the rioting mobs in the streets of Ahmedabad. The barbarian has no shame in proclaiming his hate. |
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dilkash 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 357 of 381 ) From Sharat Pradhan in Ayodhya Parallel Hindu body declares war on VHP Sounding the bugle of revolt against the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, a parallel body of Hindu saints on Thursday resolved to work out an amicable solution to the centuries old Ram Janmabhoomi-Babri Masjid dispute in Ayodhya. Drawn from local congregations and a few other north Indian religious centres, these "anti-VHP" saints met formally for the first time on Thursday under the banner of the Vishwa Dharam Raksha Parishad. The parishad threatened to wage a war against the VHP, which they alleged was indulging in "petty politicking". The parishad resolved "to ensure peaceful co-existence of both a temple and a mosque" at the disputed site. Contrary to earlier announcements, no prominent representative of any other community was present. Social activist Nafisa Ali was the only Muslim of prominence to join the meet. While giving a clarion call to oust the VHP from the temple movement, the leaders of the outfit even threatened to use force against them. Baba Dharam Das, the mahant (caretaker) of Ayodhya's oldest temple, Hanuman Garhi, told the gathering how he had given his property to the VHP for the construction of a temple. "Initially, when Vishnu Hari Dalmia and Ashok Singhal of [the] VHP came to me, I was taken in by their tall claims and proclaimed commitment to the cause of Ram Janmabhoomi. I could never imagine that these people would go astray and use the temple card only to fill their coffers." "All that [the] VHP has done over the years is to collect crores of rupees in the name of temple construction. I would now like to ask them what they have done with all that money, as the bank account of the Ram Temple Trust shows a far less amount," he charged. "We want to see a grand temple at the birthplace of Lord Ram, but we do not want the foundations of this temple to be laid on violence and communal disharmony," Das added. Brahmaswaroop Brahmachari, a prominent Hindu seer from Haridwar, was even more critical of VHP chief Ashok Singhal. "[The] VHP has only exploited sadhus and played with their religious feelings and sentiments," he said. "I find that Hindus and Muslims enjoy utmost cordial relations in Ayodhya, but communal trouble is fomented by people sitting in New Delhi." "Singhal had earlier tried to vitiate the environment in Haridwar by attempting to stall the construction of the Tehri Dam by distorting facts and misleading common masses. But we intervened to put things straight and then the public warned him to keep off," he said. "He stands badly exposed in Haridwar where the sadhu samaj has told him in no uncertain terms to lay off," he said. While flaying the VHP for vitiating the environment in the country, he described Thursday's initiative "as the first significant step towards mobilising opinion among Hindu saints towards building the Ram temple in Ayodhya without disturbing communal peace". The parishad proposed to hold a major convention in Haridwar on September 22. "We will have the leading luminaries of various Hindu congregations to participate in the meet that will sound the death knell of communal bodies like the VHP," Brahmachari declared. Another saint from Haridwar, Hans Das, who is also the general secretary of the Akhil Bhartiya Sant Samiti, said: "Let the VHP leaders know that India is not a nation of Hindus alone -- it is a land of Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs and Christians who have equal right over this soil. We will not allow VHP to succeed in its designs aimed at only forging a divide in the nation." |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 358 of 381 ) dilkash: "Sounding the bugle of revolt against the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, a parallel body of Hindu saints on Thursday resolved to work out an amicable solution to the centuries old Ram Janmabhoomi-Babri Masjid dispute in Ayodhya. " Not in the least surprising since most of these turds seem to be from Hindu camps funded by the congress. (I am talking about the article in outlook India which mentions this fact). The BAbri-Masjid brouhaha will not be solved to the satisfaction of the hindu sanghis, that much is clear, especially given that congress's "divide and rule" tactics are definitely going to work with these hindu turds. Well, people deserve what they get usually, and there are none more deserving to be screwed over than the worthless hindu turds. |
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gandalf 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 359 of 381 ) "Not in the least surprising since most of these turds seem to be from Hindu camps funded by the congress" .. Indicates the amount of respect you have for these men. So there are only BJP funded Hindu turds and Congress funded Hindu turds.. Moron, unlike you not every one is bought. Worm. |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 360 of 381 ) Gandalf: "Indicates the amount of respect you have for these men. So there are only BJP funded Hindu turds and Congress funded Hindu turds.. Moron, unlike you not every one is bought. Worm" These allegations are made in the cover article on the division among hindus, you fool. Pay attention before you make a complete ass of yourself. Secondly, I find it completely plausible that various hindu sants and saints have larger ambitions in becoming involved in the Ayodhya crap, such as improving their "sant" ratings among their hindu followers. So it is not surprising that some would seek the help of the opposition and dance to their tunes. |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 361 of 381 ) the cover articel in outlook, that is. |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 362 of 381 ) For example, the leftist Indian assholes have been pushing FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS to make the VHP a terrorist organization on the lines of Lashkar-e-Toiba. I dont care who you are, but if you are going to claim that the VHP is equivalent to the LET, then you are an anti-hindu asshole who not only has no clue as to what the LET is all about, but also that you are anti-national motherfucker who is giving foreigners another stick to beat the Indian government with (and believe me when I say that developed countries like to collect as many sticks they can to beat developing countries with). Of course, you cretins who claim to be secular and against the Indians who oppresed other Indians in the past, ARE COMPLETELY WILLING TO BE A TOOL IN THE HANDS OF FOREIGNERS WHO HAVE OPENLY SCREWED INDIA IN THE RECENT PAST. And you are the same turds who complain the sanghis are the devil incarnate as they are "weakening" India. Frankly, I consider people who give succour to India's adversaries a much more serious problem. TRAITORS AT HOME AND ABROAD. |
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ganeshca 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 363 of 381 ) Temple at ayodhya is the need of hour. It is not a hindu Vs muslim issue but a cultural identity issue. Ram is a person u lived as per our dharma an Indian and Babur is a bloody invader who forced upon us. so the choice is ours. GAnesh |
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indtruth 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 364 of 381 ) AYODHYA TEMPLE would be the ANOTHER DHAM which will attract People from all over the world. South Korean also consider Ayodhya to be their Holy land as their Ancient Holy Queen was from AYODHYA. Ayodhya Temple will also improve economy condition of the locals who are mostly muslim. Ayohdya temple would become the temple of unity as Lord Ram always stood by His subject. He will usher a better feeling among both the community. |
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jdar 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 365 of 381 ) Outlook has always been giving undue publicity to pseudo-secularist reports and stories. For example see some of the latest stories on their website. They also have an option for rating of the stories/articles by visitors to the site. I observed that 'secularists' and anti-nationals have been giving high ratings to their own articles. I urge all patriots to actively rate their stories. Give the lowest rating (1) to their pseudo-secular and anti-national articles and the highet ones (10) to patriotic articles, those that expose the machinations of secularist scum and the commies. Many a times, outlook also plays the partisan role and sets the rating of some of their 'secular' articles to 10, to begin with. |
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indtruth 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 366 of 381 ) Jdar are you sure thats the correct rating order???? |
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jdar 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 367 of 381 ) Indtruth: Yes, that is the correct rating order. It's a scale of 10. You can even view the top-10 articles once you rate one of the articles. |
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Tathagat 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 368 of 381 ) appa DeepO bhava present lampaT govt., seems a ransom payment 2 the 'Legit Veerappan' gaaghvaaNii... who messed it all beyond a fookin fix... me mosque was assassinated 22 years ago on 8th December 1980... i celebrate his birth and his death... here is me advaance tribute... this is one man t times and t tv... welcome 2 me webcast... [thank u V 4 Dylan's Jokerman... on 8th do V see specials on John... StarWorld could u repeat that tribute 2 John u showed last... pl. Happy Xmas (War Is Over) Yoko Ono & John Lennon So this is Xmas And what have you done Another year over And a new one just begun And so this is Xmas I hope you have fun The near and the dear one The old and the young A very Merry Xmas And a happy New Year Let's hope it's a good one Without any fear And so this is Xmas For weak and for strong For rich and the poor ones The world is so wrong And so happy Xmas For black and for white For yellow and red ones Let's stop all the fight A very Merry Xmas And a happy New Year Let's hope it's a good one Without any fear And so this is Xmas And what have we done Another year over A new one just begun And so happy Xmas We hope you have fun The near and the dear one The old and the young A very Merry Christmas And a happy New Year Let's hope it's a good one Without any fear War is over, if you want it War is over now Happy Christmas/ Merry Eid!!! remove '%20' from the url if the web page doesn't load] them sing songs... Happiness John : Tributes in RealAudio N eil Young Singing 'Imagine'... tathagat replaces 'brotherhood' with 'siblinghood' for obvious reasons... John tells me its fookin' foine with him :), why didn'tch u fookin' tull me bufour... The Prose and Poetry of John Lennon... |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 369 of 381 ) tathagat: "present lampaT govt., seems a ransom payment 2 the 'Legit Veerappan' gaaghvaaNii... who messed it all beyond a fookin fix... " The "lampaT govt." is a congress government, you stupid marxist shit. Dont you even pay attention to the news before blaming every thing wrong in the universe on the BJP? |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 370 of 381 ) Excerpt from Indian Express: "It is time both the votaries and opponents of Hindutva politics showed the courage, and the plain common sense, to acknowledge that the temple issue has done enough damage and that it has outlived its political charge. It is time they showed the political imagination to frame a new, positive agenda. No more must the anxiety of the December 6 anniversary be allowed to cloud the festivities of Eid. " Excerpt from an editorial in the Indian Express. Note how these pseudo-secular motherfuckers want hindus to bend over to the jihadi motherfuckers so "the festivities of Eid can proceed". For one thing, hindus must stop all this pretentious crap of hungging muslim motherfuckers. Enough is enough. If these muslim motherfuckers are genuinely interested in building bridges to the majority community, they will show sensitivity to hindu religious beliefs. What HAS been demonstrated is that the Indian muslim motherfuckers are now joining hands with international jihadi groups such as CAIR and others to internationalize Babri Masjid. FUCK THESE PRETENTIOUS LYING MUSLIM MOTHERFUCKERS. THEY HAVE NO INTENTION OF LIVING ALONGSIDE HINDUS; THEY ARE JUST BIDING THEIR TIME BEFORE THEIR POPULATION INCREASES TO MORE THAN 51% of the Indian population, and are breeding ever so rapidly to meet their tryst with destiny, as that motherfucker Nehru blabbered on August 15, 1947. |
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vikram99 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 371 of 381 ) "Note how these pseudo-secular motherfuckers want hindus to bend over to the jihadi motherfuckers so "the festivities of Eid can proceed"." It means plain and simple. Fuck hinduism and dump it in the indian ocean. India has had enuf of it. All of us to become jihadi fucks and raise our arses up in the sky and bray out inane arab words. And let the festivities of Eid, ramzan, jihad, dar ul islam et al begin. Wow! i donno why Singhal did not open fire on these media bastards instead of politely telling them that they are traitors. These offspring of pig urine are all mother sellers, not even traitors. All fuckin islamic arse licking bastards who will haggle for the price of their mothers with the arab sheiks. |
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vikram99 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 372 of 381 ) Sonia was 'honoured' for Hindutva criticism: RSS NOTHING CAN BE FARTHER THAN THE TRUTH! http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/1 81_115770,0008.htm RSS has dubbed the recent invitation by Oxford Centre for Islamic Studies to Congress president Sonia Gandhi to deliver a lecture as a move to "honour" those who speak against Hindutva and base their politics on ignoring Hindu interests. It said "patriotism" demands that despite differences within the country, leaders when they go abroad rise above such differences and do not run-down any section. But for the past some time Leftists, Christians and Jehadi combine had launched a hate campaign against Indian issues and they were helped by people like activists John Dayal and Shabana Azmi, it said. The editorial said Sonia Gandhi was the first Indian to have been invited by that centre and this was because her party had been in the forefront of "belittling and ridiculing" Hindus. |
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vikram99 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 373 of 381 ) "Cong using religion to garner votes: Jaitley" This idiot does not yet grasp the basics of indian secularism - that if it is indulged in by kaangress and mulayam, it is 'secularism' and if by BJP it is 'communalism'. http://www.hindustantimes. com/news/181_115816,0008.htm BJP national general secretary Arun Jaitley on Saturday took strong exception to Congress "using religion as a tool to garner votes for the Gujarat elections". Referring to a newspaper advertisement of a Muslim organisation apparently appealing people to vote for Congress, Jaitley told mediapersons here "Verbal appeals in the name of religion have been made in the past but it is for the first time that a political party has given such a printed advertisement in a newspaper." |
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sinbad 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 374 of 381 ) Seculariam as defined by Chachu Jawahar Lalgand means all Hindus give up all self respect and pride so that Communal Harmony shall prevail.Give up your religion,language, heritage at the alter of secularism and become maderchods,all of you. If you say a Hindu prayer, you are polarising the society. If the jehadis slaughter a cow in front of a Hindu Temple, demolish the temple so that all of us can prosper together. Say the Kalma instead of Vande Maatram so that we can have a better relationship with our valuable neighbors. So on and so forth. |
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sinbad 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 375 of 381 ) Hindus may earn their living in the UK and the US, but must help their Jehadi brethren in carrying out terrorist attacks, as Britain and America are enemies of Islam. Do not send monies to VHP/RSS as the funds may go to teach young minds Vedantic beliefs, send it to Pakistani madrassas, as the funds will be used murder Hindus and Sikhs in Kashmir as they are infidels and unfit to live. |
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sinbad 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 376 of 381 ) Show your secular spirit by celebrating Eid, but remember celebration of Diwali and Holi are repugnant to the minorities whose feelings are very important as the nation cannot prosper without their participation. Sikhs cut off your beards and hair as the sight is offensive to our Muslim brothers who are after all citizens of secular India. Never ever use saffron color in public as it offends the sensibilities of Muslims and Christians. In other words, Hindus and Sikhs, rise above parochial politics by cutting off your balls! |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 377 of 381 ) Wonder where is the pro-congress cocksucker CM Lyngdoh when the congress blatantly violates electoral codes. IT is becoming pretty clear that this cocksucker Lyngdoh is on the payroll of the congress party. |
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Karapall 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 378 of 381 ) sinbad: "In other words, Hindus and Sikhs, rise above parochial politics by cutting off your balls!" Thanks for succinctly explaining one easy step to being a pseudo-secularist hindu or sikh. Another word of advice, all you pseudo-secular cocksuckers can wear women's clothing once you have chopped your balls off. |
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sinbad 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 379 of 381 ) Is Prem shankar Zha having a lesbian relationship with whore Arundhati, surely he(?) shows no evidence whatever of possesing testicles. |
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asifmm 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 380 of 381 ) Ayodhya is for Hindus what is Mecca for us. Let the Hindus buld a temple . Muslims wont lose anything. |
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sinbad 2/11/2002 10:40:32 PM ( 381 of 381 ) What a refreshing change in thinking as above. What skies did this RARA AVIS drop out of? |
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