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The Utter Irrelevance of Gandhi Free Speech Host 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM Is pacifism or non-violence a viable alternative? is Gandhi even relevant? What do we think of his legacy? |
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Bulb 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 1 of 539 ) Recently I have been hearing many a Hindu youth slandering Mahatma Gandhi for all the ills of the nation. Is it right to do so? What would you have done if you were in Gandhi's shoes? |
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Jatayu 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 2 of 539 ) Slandering the Mahatma for the ills of the nation is fashionable pastime for those who do nothing for the nation.Such people will not lift their lift finger to help any one in need. Gandiji would not have minded honest criticsm of any of his actions or writings.He would have tried to correct any of his actions if he was convinced that they were leading to the wrong results; as he was very concious of the results of his actions. |
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sdiwa 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 3 of 539 ) To criticize Gandhi is OK.It may be that the nation is reaching the adolescence, and to blame Bapu is the pregorative of teenagers. But whatever may one's opinion, it should be well informed. He was one of the people who retained the open mind till late in life and did not get boxed into any position. He travelled from "Truth to Truth". He was an original thinker, thus retained the authority and capacity to change with changing circumstances. To me, his timeless exhortation is to realise that everlasting fight is within, to keep the self closer to truth/God/Love by purity of means and being proactive to resist outside injustice. |
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ksramesh 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 4 of 539 ) Even the mahatma is not above criticism. Blocking such criticism or questioning the act itself will be counter-productive for the country. It is better that such thinking is properly channelised |
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Bulb 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 5 of 539 ) Youth who have left India and are studying or working in the USA speak of what could have been done and what should have been done. It is sad to see bitterness and lame arguements about the past amongst the youngsters. None talk about what can be done today. None talk about returning. None talk about leaving the material comforts of the 'feel-good' american society. |
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thetruth 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 6 of 539 ) Blaming Gandhi may be fashionable ... But praising him is as fashionable . I hold Subhash Chndra Bose in greater respect . Gandhi was very superstitious . Once he was asked about the plight of rape victims . Then Gandhi gave a comment which will be praised by many . He told "No good womane can be raped" . Oh really .. . Gandhiji .. You are great . You are a genius to discover that every raped woman is bad . Gandhi opposed travelling in fast trains God knows why . "If somebody hits u on ur right cheek , give him ur left cheek to hit u again " ... BAHA Gandhi .. You are the greatest of all to churn out such picturesque pitches . And I respect GANDHI because ... during the violences after partition between Hindus and Muslims , he shed bucketful of tears for the plight of Muslims . Hindus were being massacred in Pakistan . Gandhiji did not bother to think about the helpless Hindus .. he was so secular . His last hunger strike was .... to make Indian Government agree to give PAKISTAN rs 58 crores after the war for compensation ... Oh my greaaat GANDHI ... Gandhi always considered killing of Hindus by Muslims is their birth right . He was always a mute spectator about the plight of Hindus in Pakistan . Gandhi is like Yudhisthira .. Yudhisthira didn't oppose disrobing of Droupadi as his DHARMRAJ image was much more important for him than the honour of DROUPADI . Our Gandhi is another modern DHARMRAJ who valued his own international image more than whole of INDIA . He didn't oppose the killing of Hindus by Muslims in Pakistan or bother to to raise his voice against it beacuse that would have caused damage to his image of MODERN DHARMRAJ , HERBINGER OF NON VIOLENCE , ULTRA SECULAR . GANDHI is the most successful HUMBUG of India . He used to travel in third class compartment in TRAIN . Oh how great . But that third class compartment was to be provided with every facility of a first class one . Thus actually railway department had to spend more . Thus Gandhi practised his POVERTY . Before blaming/deifying GANDHI please do read about GANDHI so that you can get the facts . Don't belive blindly what our politicians , especially the congressmen are telling us for so many years . |
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Tathagat 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 7 of 539 ) appa DeepO bhava ... Nelson mandela of ANC in SA n Martin Luther Kings' civil rights movement in united states were influnced by gandhi's non-violence... otherwise it would have been a bloody business... causing miseries to millions... Gandhi blackmailed Ambedkar not to convert to Buddhism... he obliged fearing violence against the dalits... just in case he dies fasting... Mahatma Gandhi led the country for forty years and made the people believe, "When independence comes all your problems are solved. There will be no poverty, no suffering, no riots, no violence. These Hindu-Mohammedan riots in which thousands of people are killed, burned alive, are created by the British rulers." It was easy to dump it on the British rulers -- dump everything on the British rulers. You are suffering because you are in slavery. You are poor because they are exploiting you. You can never live a respectable life if you are under the shoes of the British Empire. People believed him, just the same way as Jews had believed Moses. They followed him. The independence came... and that was the great moment of failure for Mahatma Gandhi, because it is not such a simple affair that just by getting rid of British rule all your problems are going to disappear. Your problems are millions of years old. The British were in India for only three hundred years. Before that you were poor, hungry, uneducated. In fact, the British Empire did everything to raise the standard of life in India. It introduced all kinds of technology, science, in every possible way. It introduced medicine, schools.... But nobody was going to thank them. Who is going to thank the person who is enslaving you? -- they were the cause of all the riots, of all the murders, of all the butchery. So, people were waiting: "When the British go back, we will be living for the first time as human beings -- there will be no poverty, life will be a bed of roses." But life not only remained the same, it became worse, because the British rulers knew how to rule. In three hundred years they had created a system to control, to keep discipline. Now all that disappeared with them, and the people who came into power had no idea what power was. What to do with power? How to use it? And suddenly there was a tremendous outburst of violence such as India had never seen before, perhaps no other country has seen ever before. Gandhi was shattered. Now the British were gone, but the violence was a million times more, because the British had a certain discipline, power, and they had managed the country for three hundred years. Now there was nobody; everybody was free to do whatsoever he wanted. Thousands of people were killed, burned; trains were burned, stopped and completely burned, and nobody was allowed to get out of the trains. Houses were set on fire. The whole country was in a mess. In Pakistan, the Hindus were being killed. In India, the Mohammedans were being killed. And the leaders were at a loss as to what to do. Gandhi himself said, "Now nobody listens to me." And he had been the absolute leader of the people for forty years. His voice was the voice of the country, and now he said, "Nobody listens to me. I have become a false coin -- useless." He used to say, before India became independent, that he would like to live for one hundred and twenty-five years, because after independence there would be real life; right now, what was life? But as the country became independent, and the whole country was on fire -- violence everywhere, destruction everywhere...even his own followers, intimate followers, were no longer listening to him -- he said for the first time, "Now I don't want to live one hundred and twenty-five years." Perhaps when Nathuram Godse shot him, he felt relieved, because he was carrying a burden. He could not show his face to people; there was no answer. |
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bhaskar6 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 8 of 539 ) gandhi ws the bigest liar of all times. he md us slaves for life first he betrayed us by supporting nehru who ws a flirt and after comforts. thn came hs daughter who introduced corruption and see wht happening nw. he nvr evr lived in poverty so hw will he knw the actual pains or plights of people. and he gv us the system of sychophancy see thepoliticians nwdays they swear by him to do all wrongs and corruption. |
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thetruth 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 9 of 539 ) Gandhi Failed IndiaGandhi Failed India India Post did an immense service by publishing Nathuram Godse’s account (IP dated October 23). For so long the world has been treated only to mindless adoration of the so called Mahatma. It was suppressed officially. Godse was right on mark when he called the policy of MK Gandhi as ‘self conceit’ and of ‘violent pacifism’. Gandhi’s tenet of nonviolence failed every time when it came to Hindus. During the massacres of Khilafat or partition holocaust he could not bring himself to condemn Muslim violence or even utter a single word of sympathy towards Hindus. He was very concerned that no harm should come to India’s enemies be it British or their henchmen the Islamic fanatics but it did not matter to him if his experiments resulted in decimation of the Hindus. Any number of examples can be brought out. I just mention few that came readily to mind. But the theme is consistent. Hindus are expendable but Muslim or British lives were precious |
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thetruth 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 10 of 539 ) Gandhi remained unmoved at the plight of Hindu refugees. He had Nehru use brute police force to have them thrown out of mosques that were vacant in Delhi in the middle of night. Many children died in exposure to harsh winter of Delhi on the streets as a result. He could not even wait until the day break. He constantly exhorted Hindus to go back to Pakistan and face massacre peacefully. But his non violence not withstanding, he sent Nehru to Bihar to threaten Hindu’s with aerial bombing if they retaliated against Muslims there. Bhagat Singh was condemned for being violent. British lives were precious. He earned the title of ‘Kaiser E Hind’ for mobilizing Hindus to serve in British army during first world war. But after second world war, he could not bring himself to mobilize nearly two million of decommissioned Indian soldiers to prevent partition. Not just that, when Subhash Bose was doing just that, he and Nehru severely opposed Bose. Neither Nehru nor his mentor Gandhi ever took any measures like that against either Jinnah or the British. There was no fast against partition, there was no satyagraha against Muslims demanding partition nor against violence of killing, murdering and raping by Muslims to achieve just that. |
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thetruth 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 11 of 539 ) It was such perversity that caused great calamity to India in the form of holocaust of partition. Gandhi persisted in his disastrous policies that paved way to partition of the country. Even when India was under occupation, from Attock to Cuttack, from Kashmir to Kanyakumari India was one country. His perverse non violence made his countrymen even lose natural and humane defenses against the British sponsored Jinnah’s goons. He went to Calcutta to stop Hindu reaction to what Suhravardy and his henchmen have done to them. Suhrawardhy would have been lynched but he got adopted as Gandhi’s son and saved his hide. India was quite capable of fending herself with out Gandhian leadership. She prevented partition once before when Lord Curzon divided Bengal on communal lines. Both Hindus and Muslims demanded and the policy was reversed. But that was before Gandhi. He weakened the nationalist bonds of Muslims by constantly catering only to obscurantist, fanatic and anti-national mullahs. Abdul Rashid who killed Swami Shraddananda while asleep became ‘my hero’ to Gandhi but the same man opposed even condolence resolution when Bhagat Singh, Sukhdev and Rajguru were hanged because they were violent! If Gandhi was not removed from scene for which we should remain grateful to Nathuram, India surely would have lost Hyderabad. When ‘Razakars during the day and Communists during the night’ were massacring Hindu population in that state under Nizam, Gandhi was planning to conduct yet another ‘experiment with truth’. |
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thetruth 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 12 of 539 ) Sardar Patel could act only when Gandhi was removed from the scene and when Nehru was away in London. The matter was settled in one week exact thanks to inimitable Sardar. In contrast we still have Kashmir problem. This matter was taken away from Sardar. And making Nehru instead of Sardar Patel Prime Minister of India was another Himalayan blunder of Gandhi. Today we would not have Paki problem if Sardar was allowed to be Prime Minister. Even China problem would not have been there. India Post published concerns about Tibet by Sardar which were right on mark. He would have acted decisively to nip the mischief in bud if necessary, if God has given him longer life. Sardar was elected by overwhelming majority but democracy or respect to feelings of majority of the party or the nation were never part of Gandhi legacy. He maneuvered removal of Subhash Bose as President of Congress party when he was elected to that post democratically. Similarly he foisted Nehru on the nation quite contrary to 99% wishes of his own Congress party then. And now we have to pay for all such follies. SO THAT IS OUR "MAHATMA(?)" GANDHI |
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indyana 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 13 of 539 ) I think most of you guys have very bad notions of Gandhiji, after all he is a human being. Without Gandhiji the there was no leader in the Congress who could rally so many people to fight for Independence. Tell me, the only combined operation for independence was orchestrated by Netaji, with the help of the Nazis who are the persecutors of mankind and the Japenese the racists. If not for Gandhi, the people of India would not have come under one umbrella for the fight for freedom. He definetly made blunders with regards to his choice of Prime Minister, but not to recognise his contribution for the freedom movement, you are undermining what India stands for, in the WORLD. The situation in which we are at the present movement is due Nehru-Gandhi family, who played to the International galleries during 1947 and 1971, where we could have resolved Kashmir with Pakistan once and for all. |
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indyana 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 14 of 539 ) I think most of you guys have very bad notions of Gandhiji, after all he is a human being. Without Gandhiji the there was no leader in the Congress who could rally so many people to fight for Independence. Tell me, the only combined operation for independence was orchestrated by Netaji, with the help of the Nazis who are the persecutors of mankind and the Japenese the racists. If not for Gandhi, the people of India would not have come under one umbrella for the fight for freedom. He definetly made blunders with regards to his choice of Prime Minister, but not to recognise his contribution for the freedom movement, you are undermining what India stands for, in the WORLD. The situation in which we are at the present movement is due Nehru-Gandhi family, who played to the International galleries during 1947 and 1971, where we could have resolved Kashmir with Pakistan once and for all. Jai Hind |
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Tathagat 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 15 of 539 ) appa DeepO bhava The killer of Gandhiji and his apologists sought to justify the assassination on the following arguments: Gandhiji supported the idea of a separate state for Muslims. In a sense he was responsible for the creation of Pakistan. Inspite of the Pakistani aggression in Kashmir, Gandhiji fasted to compel the government of India to release an amount of Rs. 55 crores due to Pakistan. The belligerence of Muslims was a result of Gandhiji's policy of appeasement. Scrutinised in the light of the recorded history these prove to be clever distortions to misguide the gullible. Gandhiji in those days was very active in the rough and tumble of politics. The proposal for partition of the country and violent reaction against it generated tensions which ultimately resulted in sectarian killings on a scale unprecedented in human history. For the ethnic Muslims, Gandhiji was a Hindu leader who opposed creation of Pakistan on sectarian grounds. Ethnic Hindus looked upon him as an impediment of their plan to revenge the atrocities on Hindus. Godse was a child of this extremist thinking. The assassination of Gandhiji was a culmination of decades of systematic brain-washing. Gandhiii had become a thorn in the flesh of the hardcore Hindus and in course of time this resentment turned into a phobia. Beginning with the year 1934 over a period of 14 years on as many as six occasions attempts were made to kill Gandhiji. The last one by Godse on 30-1-48 was successful. The remaining five were made in 1934, in the months of July and September 1944, September 1946 and 20th January 1948. Godse was involved in two previous attempts. When the unsuccessful attempts of 1934, 1944 and 1946 were made the proposal regarding the partition and the matter regarding release of Rs. 55 crore to Pakistan were not in existence at all. The conspiracy to do away with Gandhiji was conceived much earlier than the successful accomplishment thereof. Tire grounds advanced for this heimons crime are clever rationalization to hoodwink the gullible. The staging of the play entitled, "Mee Nathuram Godse Boltoy" is a clear proof of the fact that the mindset that led to Gandhiji's assassination has not disappeared from our national life. |
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Tathagat 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 16 of 539 ) appa DeepO bhava A civil society is wedded to the democratic method of resolving differences by a frank and open debate and evolving a working consensus. Gandhiji was always open to persuasion. Gandhiji had invited Godse for discussions but the later did not avail of this opportunity given to him. This is indicative of the lack of faith in democratic way of resolving differences on the part of Godse and his ilk. Such fascist mindset seeks to do away with dissent by liquidating the opponents. The Hindu backlash was as much responsible for the creation of Pakistan as the sentiments of the ethnic Muslims. The hard core Hindus looked down upon the Muslims as misguided "Mlechchh" - unclean and came to believe that coexistence with them was not possible. Mutual distrust and recriminations led the extremists among both the groups to regard Hindus and Muslims as different nationalities and this strengthened the Muslim league's demand for partition as the only possible solution to the communal problem. Vested interests on both the sides stirred up the separatist sentiment and sought to justify their hate - campaign by clever and selective distortion of history. It is indeed a matter for serious concern for the nation that this mentality has not disappeared even today. |
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Tathagat 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 17 of 539 ) appa DeepO bhava A civil society is wedded to the democratic method of resolving differences by a frank and open debate and evolving a working consensus. Gandhiji was always open to persuasion. Gandhiji had invited Godse for discussions but the later did not avail of this opportunity given to him. This is indicative of the lack of faith in democratic way of resolving differences on the part of Godse and his ilk. Such fascist mindset seeks to do away with dissent by liquidating the opponents. The Hindu backlash was as much responsible for the creation of Pakistan as the sentiments of the ethnic Muslims. The hard core Hindus looked down upon the Muslims as misguided "Mlechchh" - unclean and came to believe that coexistence with them was not possible. Mutual distrust and recriminations led the extremists among both the groups to regard Hindus and Muslims as different nationalities and this strengthened the Muslim league's demand for partition as the only possible solution to the communal problem. Vested interests on both the sides stirred up the separatist sentiment and sought to justify their hate - campaign by clever and selective distortion of history. It is indeed a matter for serious concern for the nation that this mentality has not disappeared even today. |
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Tathagat 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 18 of 539 ) appa DeepO bhava In 1937 at the open session of the Hindu Mahasabha held at Ahmedabad, VD Savarkarin his presidential address asserted : "India cannot be assumed today to be unitarian and homogenous nation, but on the contrary there are two nations in the main - the Hindus and the Muslims." (Vide writings Swatantrya VD Savarkar, Vol. 6 page 296, Maharashtra Prantiya Hindu Mahasabha, Pune). In 1945, he had stated "I have no quarrel with Mr. Jinnah's two nation theory. We, the Hindus are a nation by ourselves, and it is a historical fact that the Hindus and the Muslims are two nations." (vide Indian Educational Register 1943 vol. 2 page 10). It was this sentiment of separate and unreconcilabe identities of the followers of these religions that led to the formation of Pakistan. In complete contrast to this mentality Gandhiji throughout his life remained an un-compromising advocate of oneness of God, respect for all religions, equality of all men and non-violence in thought, speech and action. His daily prayers comprised verses, devotional songs and readings from different scriptures. All people irrespective of their allegiance to different religions, attended those meetings. Till his dying day Gandhiji held the view that the nationality of fellow citizens was not in any way affected by the fact of his subscribing to religious belief other than yours. During his life, on more than one occasions he strove for unity and equality among Hindus themselves as well as amity among Hindus and Muslims even risking his life. The idea of partition was an anathema to him. He was given to saying that he would sooner die than subscribe to such a pernicious doctrine. His life was an open book and no substantiation is necessary on this score. |
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Tathagat 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 19 of 539 ) appa DeepO bhava Influx of Hindus from Pakistan who were uprooted and who had suffered killings of relatives, abduction and rape of women and looting of their belongings had created an explosive situation. Local Hindus who were outraged by the treatment meted out to their Hindu brethren and the anger of local Muslims against reports of similar outrages on their coreligionists in India made Delhi a veritable witches' cauldron. This resulted in killings, molestation, torching of houses and properties. This caused deep anguish to Gandhiji. What added poignancy to this was the realisation that it happened in India itself just after an unique incident in the history of mankind : doing away of the shackles of a colonial regime by non-violent means. It was in this background in his mind that he undertook fast unto death to restore communal amity and sanity in Delhi. And, as if to allow the critics of Mahatma Gandhi a chance to mix-up and manoeuvre, the decision of the government of India to release Rs. 55 crore to Pakistan came during this period of his fast. |
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Tathagat 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 20 of 539 ) appa DeepO bhava The following facts dissolve this much tauted thesis that Gandhiji had fasted to bring moral pressure on government of India to relent.: Dr. Sushila Nair, as soon as she heard Gandhiji proclaim his decision, rushed to her brother Pyarelal and informed him in a huff that Gandhiji had decided to undertake fast till the madness in Delhi ceased. Even in those moments of inadvertence the mention of 55 crore of rupees was not made which clearly proves that it was not intended by Gandhiji. Gandhiji's own announcement about his resolve on 12th January in the evening prayer meeting did not contain any reference to it. Had it been a condition, he would have certainly mentioned it as that. Similarly, there was no reference to it in his discourse on 13th January. Gandhiji's reply on the 15th January, to a specific question regarding the purpose of his fast did not mention it. The press release Of the government of India did not have any mention thereof The list of assurances given by the committee headed by Dr. Rajendra Prasad to persuade Gandhiji to give up his fast did not include it We hope these facts should put at rest the 55 crore concoction at rest. With regard to the last allegation regarding appeasement of Muslims, it should be conceded that a certain amount of antagonism between Hindus and Muslims existed in the nation. The colonial power cleverly exploited it during its reign and inevitably the result the division of the country came into being. Long before Gandhiji appeared on the national stage sagacious leaders like B.G. Tilak had started attempts to secure the participation of Muslims in the nationalist struggle. Under what came to be known as Lucknow pact Lobmanya Tilak, Annie Peasant and Mr. Jinnah evolved a formula under which the Muslims would get representation greater than what would be justified on the basis of the percentage of Muslim population. The frank and bold statement of Tilak defending the Pact is an eloquent refutation of the charge that Gandhiji began the policy of appeasement of Muslims. The author of the play "Mee Nathuram Godse Boltoy" Shri Pradip Dalvi described the order of Maharashtra government banning the staging of the play as an attack on freedom of expression. This is a travesty of truth and perversion of the fundamental right guaranteed by the constitution. The constitution also provides for ban on the abuse of this freedom vide its section 19(2). The implications of what shri Dalvi and ilk profess requires to be carefully analysed. Under the guise of defending the freedom of expression what they are seeking to do is to advocate the right to murder those who do not agree with them; they seek to spread hatred and violence; they want to propagate the pernicious doctrine that under certain circumstances the murder of the opponent becomes an act of religious sacrifice. It is revolting to find that the heinous murder of one who was a living embodiment of non-violence, peace and love and who was as defenseless as a naked new born child should be made a scaffolding for a neo-fascist doctrine. Godse is no more but the mindset which gave birth to such distorted philosophy is unfortunately still with us. One can dismiss what he did as an act of a lunatic bigot. Assassination by itself is not as wicked as the attempts to rationalize, justify masquerade it as religious act. Permitting such plays to be staged amounts to permitting miseducation of our children. Only sane response to such insidious propaganda is unequivocal rejection thereof. |
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Tathagat 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 21 of 539 ) appa DeepO bhava Mahatma Gandhi was murdered by an RSS member-and that is the common belief On the 30th of January 1948, within less than a year of the Indian independence, Nathuram Godse, a Hindu zealot from the western Indian state of Maharashtra, shot and killed Mahatma Gandhi at a prayer meeting in Delhi. Nathuram Godse was a prominent member of the RSS and a close associate of its founder Dr. K. B. Hedgewar. Just before the assassination, however, Godse "left" the RSS and joined another Hindu supremacist group Hindu Mahasabha. So, why was the Sangh not convicted in Gandhi assassination? RSS was never officially implicated and convicted in the murder of Mahatma Gandhi because, among other reasons, Nathuram Godse could not conclusively be proven to be an RSS member. This apparently bizarre conclusion was possible because of RSS' non-existent membership roster and the absence of any internal documented proceedings of Sangh activities or meetings. At the time of the assassination, the Sangh did not even have a constitution-this was after twenty three years of its public existence! 6 RSS mobilizes workers into its different fronts. Other than the BJP, the Sangh mentors its cadres for its education front Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad (ABVP). Industry-based cadres are sent to organize the labor front, Bharatiya Mazdoor Sangh (BMS), and the more gray-haired and often rich workers from the business world move into the powerful well-financed religious wing, the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) or the World Hindu Council. Although very much in the fray of capturing unions through electioneering (and hooliganism), both ABVP and BMS claim to be non-political.7 |
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Tathagat 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 22 of 539 ) appa DeepO bhava RSS, Shiv Sena, and their admiration of fascism Dr. Hedgewar, the RSS founder, propounded the idea that national unity would only come about if it was declared that all non-Hindus in India, such as Muslims and Christians, do not form a part of the nation. This was because, in his opinion, non-Hindus deny Hindu traditions, ideals, and culture. Hedgewar indoctrinated this idea into his hand-picked protégé Madhavrao Sadasivrao Golwalkar (more commonly known as Guruji-"the teacher"), again from Nagpur. The most comprehensive statement of this exclusionary idea was made in Mr. Golwalkar's book "We or Our Nationhood Defined" published in 1938 8. The pamphlet-like book has so many laudatory references to Hitler and his theories of racial supremacy that it became embarrassingly uncomfortable for the RSS to continue its publication and was soon withdrawn from circulation. It would be worthwhile to cite a few excerpts here: "German race pride has now become the topic of the day. To keep up the purity of the race and its culture, Germany shocked the world by her purging the country of the Semitic races-the Jews. Race pride at its highest has been manifested here. Germany has also shown how well-nigh impossible it is for races and cultures, having differences going to the root, to be assimilated into one united whole-a good lesson for us in Hindusthan (i.e., the land of Hindus) to learn and profit by." This is the lesson the "Guruji" wants Sangh volunteers to learn: "From this standpoint sanctioned by the experience of shrewd old nations, the non-Hindu peoples in Hindusthan must either adopt the Hindu culture and language, must learn to respect and hold in reverence the Hindu religion, must entertain no idea but the glorification of the Hindu race and culture, i.e., they must not only give up their attitude of intolerance and ungratefulness towards this land and its age-old traditions, but must also cultivate the positive attitude of love and devotion instead; in one word, they must cease to be foreigners or may stay in the country wholly subordinated to the Hindu nation claiming nothing, deserving no privileges, far less any preferential treatment, not even citizen's rights." 9 The Hindu Mahasabha leader Savarkar, a much-respected personality in RSS circles, proclaimed, "If we Hindus grow stronger in time Moslem friends ...will have to play the part of German Jews."10 "We or Our Nationhood Defined" was replaced by Golwalkar's "Bunch of Thoughts", now the Sangh "Bible", in which an attempt has been made to clothe the RSS's fascistic concept of nationhood in a religio-cultural garb.11 The RSS and Hindu Mahasabha have always been fiercely anti-Muslim and anti-Christian. Golwalkar went as far as to raise an objection when Abdul Hamid and the Keelor brothers were honored by the Indian government for their patriotism and gallantry during the Indo-Pak war. Golwalkar did not want any non-Hindu soldiers to be honored however much they might have sacrificed for India.12 The fiercely anti-Muslim attitude of the RSS goes to the extent of dubbing even Urdu as a foreign language. "The import and significance of the word 'Urdu' is so derogatory to national self-respect that it suppresses all emotional upsurge in favor of the language. How and why should we own a language the very name of which constantly reminds us of our political subjugation? Hindu ancestors passed on Sanskrit and Hindi to their descendants. They had nothing to do with the transmission of Urdu".13 The Sangh family's political ally Shiv Sena even today hail Hitler and Nazi Germany. Shiv Sena's godman Bal Thackeray often eulogizes Hitler at public gatherings and in interviews. In its quest for political power, the Sangh naturally does not want to be a part of this "nuisance" any more. However, it is yet to come out with a censure of Thackeray. |
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bhagath 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 23 of 539 ) Well if I were in Gandhi's shoes, I would have atleast had the decency not to do what a horrible thing he has done to the nation today. I agree, that he was one of the architects of free India, but one has to realize at what cost. It has been a problem with India, that Indians never recognize the true effort of any other fellow India. But the way he opposed Subhash Chandra Bose and Tilak, showed his stubborn side. In my opinion Gandhi has to be blamed for the communal Hindu Muslim rivalry that exists today, |
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agsharma 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 24 of 539 ) The way the Mahatama is portrayed by most participants here, he could easily have been a mastermind villan of a b grade hindi movie. What with all the "planned" killings of hindus, handing out the olive branch to muslims and death to hindus etc. I am truely surprised no one has said that the Mahatama was secretly a muslim! That would explain everything he did! Most of us have traced the roots of communal violence to him and that has to commendable work by these "historians".Hats off to you guys to have pieced the crucial puzzle together. Now that you know the truth what are you going to do about it? The Mahatama has been proclaimed as the friend of the angrez and muslim and that is why the hindus must hate him. I have to go back to my history books and to my gramdmother to understand where it says the hindus hate anybody of another religion. It's amazing to read the thoughts of the all understanding hindus who claim to have been prosecuted becuase of the poicies of the Mahatama. I, as a hindu, love my country and the people in it. Yes, at it is often difficult to understand and relate with people from different cultures but resorting to violence so that they may tread along my chosen path has never crossed my mind. It's time we all looked into the future instead of brooding over the past. Good luck to you all. |
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pundit21 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 25 of 539 ) When the British were ruling us we had a ready scapegoat to blame for all our ills. Every Indian ailment was because we were not free - thanks to those English bastards. Then we became free and embarked on nation building based on Soviet style economics (five year plans, very high tariffs to protect our "nascent industries" etc etc). Surprise, surprise India remained mired in poverty, high unempoyment, produced crappy goods and had terrible income distribution. At the same time little banana republics that embraced the market system like Singapore, Malaysia, Taiwan and South Korea (the Asian Tigers) roared past us. So after fifty years of plodding we are at a cross roads having made some modest victories and suffered some stupendous losses. We are still a nation with serious problems - high illiteracy, poverty, homlessness, starvation, disease, rampant corruption, goonda politics and a population that is growing uncontrollably. Now who do we have to blame. Rather than blaming ourselves and our own bloody incompetence greed and selfishness over the past 54 years some of us decide to blame "Gandhi" - its all his fault you see - breaking up India (like he had any choice in the matter) is the root cause of all our problems. Paradoxically, the logic here to those that espouse this thinking, is that having another 150 million semi-literate Pakistanis and another 100 million completely illiterate Banladeshis would actually make our lot in life better???. Go figure???? Actually if you add the GDP of both Pakistan and Bangladesh to India and add their current populations to ours you will find our per capita income actually goes down and we become an even poorer country (I have not looked at infant mortality, female literacy and other measures on the UN Development Index but I am pretty sure we would be worse off with Bangladesh and Pakisatn in rather than out). India was a British invention - it never existed as an entity (Hindustan is not equal to India) till they conquered all the various kingdoms and stitched modern India together like a quilt. On their way out they cut out two lousy parts of the country - one part, by most accounts a tidal swamp prone to cyclones and the other part a semi arid desert. I think the Gandhi haters should get over this tragic loss :) and stop blaming dead men who did their part and gave the country its shove on the path to freedom and choice. I have no doubt that they had the best of intentions and did their best. Gandhi, Nehru et al were the opening batsmen of the Indian innings - they saw the shine off the new ball and put us on the path to building a reasonable total - so far its the middle order that has failed the country so terribly. Lets put the blame where it belongs on the shoulders of those who have squandered opportunities and violated our Constitution. Let us not blame minorities, our founding fathers and Pakistani bogeymen for the predicament we find ourselves in - instead lets just look in the mirror!!!!! |
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swarajya 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 26 of 539 ) Its a sorry state of affairs...With the Indian youth having nowhere to direct their "resentiment" they've made the Mahatma the object of their criticism...He might have made some errors (errors- he acknowledged, something not very easy to do), but not for the ones mentioned above...Moreover, the tragedy is that people attribute to Him doings which He abhorred and would have prevented at the cost of His life...To all His detractors, I say read "Hind Swarajya" and open your eyes...For then you will realize that Post 1947 India became exactly what Gandhiji feared and wanted to prevent -- the English Tiger was replaced by an Indian Tiger...And if you want to bring about national regeneration, don't blame the Father of the Indian Nation, start by regenerating yourself...For as He said to one of His followers, who did not comprehend how His methods of Sayagraha would free India; "Please do not carry unnecessarily on your head the burden of emancipating India. Emancipate your own self. Even that burden is great. Apply everything to yourself. Nobility of sould consists in realising that you are yourself India. In your emancipation ist he emancipation of India. All else is make-believe." If the youth today is bold enough, responsible enough, prudent enough to do this, their slanderings will surely metamorphose to praises, and the current ills of the nation will vanish, like the dispelling of darkness when a light is shines...This is the only beacon of hope for all Indians, young and old, in the present desolate political, social, economic, spritiual environs of our land. |
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rohit 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 27 of 539 ) Hinduism is a philosophy, which was formulated over a number of years, based on knowledge and lessons learned by great sages of ancient times. The concept of a power that drives the universe (Brahman), the concept of hierarchy of gods based on power and function, the concept of creator (Brahma), destructor(Shiva) and maintainer (Vishnu), rebirth, Time and Space etc are very advanced ideas.The depth of understanding and maturity of thought (bhagavad gita, etc) show that those ancient philosophers were much more sophisticated than contemporary mankind! HINDUISM PREACHES COMMUNAL HARMONY, AND THAT'S PRECISELY WHAT GANDHI DID. Oflate, fanatic organisations like RSS, Bajrang Dal, VHP,Shivsena, Sangh Parivar are destroying Hinduism and seem determined to tarnish it's image. It's only fortunate that education and development being high priority amongst Hindus, we don't subscribe to their bullshit. Thus these fanatic organisations haven't been able to duplicate Islamic fundamentalism in the Hindu context. I only hope that Hindus first understand what our religion is all about and then think about threats and popularisation! It's best to keep your beliefs (religion) to yourself and concentrate on more realistic worldly issues that callenge us, and aim towards a successful society. |
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shiva 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 28 of 539 ) RSS...are not at all tarnishing the image.we ar protecting ourselves,our philosophy.you ar talking about communal harmony because you never faced communal disturbances.So what do you mean by maturity.sit quitely when our kids and wives are dragged out and burnt or killed.It is your dharma to protect your family and philosophy and leave the rest to god.There may be some elements in these organizations that misuse its name for political ends.Since we are soft and divided we became the target to attack for all the other communities in the world.Aleast we have to learn from jewish people. |
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sss 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 29 of 539 ) Gandhi was a smart guy wih incomprehensible mind.He was a marketing guy and his philosphy was impractical.If one has met evil,you can know they are very devious and cannot be won by love.You have to kill bad.Even open fight could lead to backlashes for bad can stab at back.You have to fight,kill them discreetly,as bad people do.But Gandhi is one dimension ,what did other public do as shown in movie "Hey Ram". Follow,admire,respect,belive him (then).This is how bad is made.There are thousands of Gandhis on street today,whom if you give power will do same.And even today common man likes sweet talking Gandhis and not blunt talking straight guys.Why? People like gandhi have good people skills.People like people with good people skills(without knowing they fool them).Today,we are maybe criticising a gandhi,who got exposed by some straight people after lot of years(for godse wasnot classified a martyr),but today also gandhis are very popular with people everywhere.And they always will be.Maybe God likes to make people who can fool other people.And even today,people cannot read them.Why? |
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rav666 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 30 of 539 ) The reason why a major part of the world is free today is because of Mahatma Gandhi and people who followed his footsteps such as Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela. He is one of the greatest personalities of the last century. Just as no amount barking at the Sun can dim its brightness, the Mahatma's greatness cannot be reduced by the kind of name-calling that has been going on in this and other threads. He was a people's man - a great motivator who lead by example. He was a 'do'er, not a 'talk'er like most leaders today. Yes, he was a great marketing man - an ideal one at that because he cared for the welfare of his 'customers' - the people who were 'sold' on his ideas. Take any success literature and you'll find his name, quotes and actioned mentioned - and he was a great success story. He acheived a free India - if someone wants to undermine this achievement, pls remember that there are several regions in this world that are still struggling to achieve freedom - Northern Ireland, Palestine, Tibet, Afganistan, Chechenya, Tamil Eelam, Kashmir.... the list goes on. |
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rohit 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 31 of 539 ) In response to Shiva's statement... what do u think the police is meant for? This sense of paranoia destroys balance. So do u think the solution is to breed more hatred amongst Hindus-muslims and to take up arms and train poeple in using arms (Bajrang dal). Muslims r at fault indeed with their herd mentality, illiteracy and fanaticism. But I feel a practical balance to the situation can be achieved by promoting in communal harmony. This prevents hatred and insecurity amongst communities. Coupled with education, we r removing the root cause of the problem (communal tension). Rather than go out of ur wayto engage in communal harmony, we must focus on nationality and development, rather than religion and communalism. Otherwise the path of communal hatred and insecurity, which is promoted by anti Hindu organisations like Bajrang dal, Shiv sena etc (RSS is getting there mind u) is destined to ruin India. |
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surya 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 32 of 539 ) Mahatama was a saint who lived simple life according to hindu religion,one of most popular Indian figures in world.Youth should learn from his teachings,and why are they anti on father of nation,who got independence for India? Maybe misleaded. |
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kamal 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 33 of 539 ) past is past. Good or bad, whatever happend is happend, we can not rewirte the history. Instead of looking into the past, I will look into the future. Let's do something pro-actively for the betterment of India and for the indian society. |
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spirit 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 34 of 539 ) Only those people can to better for society who are good/intelligent,unselfish and have power over themselves and in powerful profession(and have support of unknown powerful powers).Past teaches,but present problems could be same.Sometimes destinies of country/people are same.A humans/nations progress/happiness/decay is decided by people(visible/invisible) having power on them or near (in surrounding) to them.Rich become poor,poor/ rich.Happy become unhappy,unhappy/happy,kings become slaves,slaves kings.Humans are reasons for progress/failures/developments/miseries.Else resources(all) there for everyone's needs and happiness. |
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nks 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 35 of 539 ) If it was not for Mahatma Gandhi, today's youth of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh would be licking the boots of some whiteman! So thank God for the Mahatma. |
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nalin 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 36 of 539 ) I wish it were true that India's youth were becoming more critical of Gandhi. In many ways, the cult of Gandhi represents all that is wrong with India today. The glorification of Gandhi masks a deep cowardice and hypocrisy that plagues Indian society. The enemy is treated with respect whereas selfless martyrs are criticized or dismissed. Condsider the treachery of Gandhi's politics. He campaigned for the British war efforts in 1914 instead of using the opportunity to accelerate the fight for the country's freedom. Time and time again, he obstructed more radical and more nationalist freedom fighters from combating the British effectively. The British had a miniscule presence in India - by making non-violence a false fetish - he allowed the British to rule India for at least 20 years more than what was really necessary. Consider too - his respect for the British agent, Islamic chauvinist and traitor to the subcontinet - Jinnah - and his betrayal of a great secular hero like Bhagat Singh. The manner in which he opposed Subhas Chandra Bose also shows what a petty persone he was. Unfortunately, the history of India's freedom struggle has been written by self-serving 'chelas' of Gandhi who have not brought the truth of his many betrayals and many weaknesses to the Indian public. Gandhi's irrational aversion and unbalanced criticism of modern science and technology, his idealistic approach to India's poverty, caste inequities and religious problems has had lasting ill effects. Being secular is NOT TANTAMOUNT to pandering to every shade of minority chauvinism. Unfortunately the Gandhian brand of "secularism" is nothing but unprincipled accomodation of all manner of reactionary and obscurantist forces. The more deeply young Indians probe into the true history of the Indian freedom struggle - the more they will discover that Gandhi was a manipulative and dishonorable leader who often worked to slow down the progress towards freedom. I look forward to the day when a majority of intelligent Indians view Gandhi with abhorrence and distaste. Only then will India be able to realize it's full potential as a modern nation. |
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anjali25 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 37 of 539 ) mahatma is such a great man that no one can disagree for it.as every man has some faults even gandhiji had.so, y remembering past. past is past. we can build our nation as gandhi wanted. or atleast these people follow gandhi i.e., non-violence,truth,.... and can blame gandhi.who, admitted every mistake of him as no one can do it. |
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skaza 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 38 of 539 ) Hey Nalin, The Afghans tried to fight the british right after the first world war. They were soundly beaten. The malay communists tried it after the second world war, with the same results. The Zulus tried it in the 1870's, the egytians tried it in the 1880's, and the boers, supposedly the finest light cavalry in the world at that time tried it in the 1890's, with not much success and we ourselves, of course, tried it in 1857, and we know what happened to that. Gandhi's insight that a ruler cannot rule without the implicit consent of the ruled was the breakthrough. He was the one that revived and synthesized the ideas of civil disobedience. Violence only shifts the focus away from the active non-consent of the ruled to the more technical and militaristic aspects of politics. The british ruled by moral authority. They believed and convinced their own and the conquered peoples of the benefits and benevolence of their rule. It was the indian independence movement that destroyed that moral authority and international acceptance. That was what shattered the British political will to rule, which undermining their economic interests in the sub-continent. Even more importantly, it created what the russians call a "political culture". A political culture based on reason and self- and group-interest. A military culture based would, even if successful, have led to the an africa-like situation. There might be violence aplenty in indian politics, but it is ancillary to the main drama, which is the political one. And, for that, we have to that the Mahatma, the architect of that political culture. whether you appreciate him, as a saint or not, you've got the appreciate the old man's brilliant and farsighted politics. |
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cynic 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 39 of 539 ) I think people like Nalin represents all that is wrong with the Indian polity today. Reviling a man like Gandhi for being tolerant is rather symptomatic of the culture of abrasive violence that is sweeping like a locust swarm across the world from Afganistan to Zambia. Apologists of violence like Nalin forget that violence begets violence and that a violent insurrection against the British at that time was quite impossible to bring to fruition, given the far superior firepower of the British. All such military options from the 1857 war to the INA rebellion were doomed to failure from the start, given the admittedly patriotic, but romantic, impractical ideals that led them. Nalin, It takes far greater courage to face up to repression and not strike back. It is easy to retaliate-that is human nature, and violent retaliation would undoubtedly have meant the premature end of our freedom struggle, because the British would have had an excuse to kill them all. But what can one do against a pacifist? Nothing, without attracting world opprobium and national hate, gradually eroding their authority. This is what ultimately led to our independence. And this was led by Gandhi, not Savarkar or Patel. Let us try and understand the man and his greatness, instead of denigrating a person who sacrificed his life for us. Let us hang our heads in shame for the curcumstances of his death-cruelly mowed down by one belonging to a group which represents the scum of Indian society--the communal extremists. |
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Rishi 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 40 of 539 ) Things true about Gandhi is that he was a good social reformer, Great visionary, Excellent Strategist (just like good Barrister). BUT A VERY VERY BAD POLITICIAN. |
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Ashwani 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 41 of 539 ) Hi All Pro-Gandhi, The very first thing is, I am not anti-Gandhi but I am not Pro-Gandhi either. We need to accept one thing that TIME is one of the biggest factor in human life. Right action at right time can make a U-turn in one's life, so was Gandhi's action in the Britisher's time. May be it was a hit at that time. All actions taken by Gandhi are not justified and acceptable. I know we Indians are blind followers. Why it was time ?? : If Gandhi would have born in Aurangjaeb's time then he might've got killed the next day he raise his voice. It was Britisher who tolrated him and allowed him to grow. To some extend it's ok to follow Gandhism but do you really think that in today's atmosphere when human life don't have any value, Gandhian values have any meaning. Eye for Eye makes the world blind but I don't think one should be follower of Gandhi if he want to stay alive in today's world. Modified gandhian statement for today : 'if one slap on your one cheek then he deserve at least two slaps back. Don't offer him to slap on your other one' |
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atique 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 42 of 539 ) HI all, Its easy for us to sit back and talk about the pros and cons of a past era. Acts that have made a man Noble and a legend world over. Just because we live in times where free speech and expression is given a chance doesnt mean that our ancestors were that gifted. Iam not sure had Gandhi been born in the age of Aurangzeb he would have been killed the next day or the britishers were tolerant. What i know is that it takes a real Man to stand out against the rulers and follow ones conciese even if it means taking on the wrath of the mighty ruler. Let us not forget that Gandhiji gave up all his comforts to starve for the well being of the Nation the people whom he cared for. No wonder he was never interested in grabbing the power or nominating his successors ( the kith n kin ) to take over from him. Do we have one politician who would do the same today? |
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Tathagat 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 43 of 539 ) appa DeepO bhava ... utter irrelevant... indeed yes though there was a peacenik from Pakistan, none other than the good General Musharraf, who, during his visit to the Rajghat, wrote in the visitor's book: "Never has the requirement of his (Mahatma Gandhi's) ideals been felt more severely than today, specifically in the context of Pakistan-India relations. May his soul rest in eternal peace." ... there is no life after death btw, time is always there... it is eternal... but we cum ;) and go... Kudos to Musharraf/ Powell and women having Dubya calm and in control... while gobar chaaps are utter failure at their design... we will play too or else we ruin the game... gesture. two days after the general asked them to lay off... the colonel (or is it major?) responded 'we don't wanna add to ur difficulties... and look where is that stance now?... the timing of the assembly bomb n Jaswant's visit is as convenient as chatti singhpura massacre... what they do they claim for it, as we all know... back to Gaandhi baba... fought almost half a century to get independence... while future PM de Israel, Begin blew king David Hotel in Jerusalem, killing 90 Britons... and getting the state of Israel in two flat years... last night, his morning Dubya said there were long term strategic plan for Palestine state... :), (Kashmir included) u kiddin' ... it gotta be back dated... power de barrel the gun is not just rational... but real too... rest are just... naqqaar kHaane meiN tooti ki aawaaz... Scene 1 : A beggar comes to a shop and the shop provides loadz of small coins in a bowl... where he is suppose to pick one and leave. Scene 2 : A hoodlum comes and pull a gun... and the guy says... " take away everything but me life..." and that's the way it works... unless u r on a bullockcart like these u know what... |
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phantom 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 44 of 539 ) Hi all, I think Gandhi is great, but the reason I think british had not killed him was because they were intelligent and also they knew the consequences of it. I think that Gandhi in the Pre-independence era is a great Strategist, human being, visionary, social reformer. But in Post-independence era he lacked the vision that he displaced before 1947. Also, All Gandhians should stop preaching to people that Gandhi was/is some sort of a demi-god and accept that he had his share of (grave)mistakes which endangered the security of India( like going on a hunger strike to force Indian govt to give Rs.550 million to Pakistan). Also, he was a dictator in the sense that he actually overturned the decision of CWC to elect Sardar Patel as PM in favour of Nehru(who in my opinion is nothing but an idiotic leader who had no sense of patriotism and who was full of greed for power, money etc.). It is time, we Indians leave this passive resistance towards terrorism and take active/pro-active action and show to world that we will not take this type of terror passively anymore and whoever causes it will pay a dear price. Jai Hind |
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vishag 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 45 of 539 ) "I will let my body to be cut in pieces , BUT I will never allow the country to be bifurcated ; and I will never allow Pakistan to be formed." I promise. -By Mahatma Gandhi In ` HARIJAN` Dated 22-09-1942 Anybody who ponders over historical lines mentioned above and then looks at the history , will understand that , Mr. M. K. Gandhi qualifies for the post of "Father of Pakistan" more than Mr. Md. Ali Jinnah.. |
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aranja01 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 46 of 539 ) This growing disrespect towards Gandhi is due to the ignorance of todays's youth about Indian Independence movement. RSS has published and propagated several false notions about gandhi. And the growing influence of RSS+BJP is explains it all. Gandhi to me was a great human being who had great integrity and determination. I rever him immensely just because of this. Not withstanding the fact what he did for the freedom movement. To me he is still bapu, though i may not be his favourite son. |
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madhavi 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 47 of 539 ) It is indeed sad that we as a nation cannot acknowledge the greatness of a leader and great human being like the mahatma, i mean we should actually be studying the man and learn about everything, about management, aboutoperational ethics about anything!. . . HE , HIS LIFE AND HIS VIEWS WERE / ARE A UNIVERSITY OF THOUGHT AND WISDOM. It is easy to make a guy look bad and ugly once he's dead, the fact that such criticism was almost absent at that point of time goes to say a lot about the man!. . .i mean. . .he did what he thought was right at that time!. .it was important! let us not forget, that we were NOT EVEN A NTION TILL HE GOT US TOGETHER AND TOLD US THAT WE WERE ONE!. . .HE,INCIDENTALLY, WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CREATION OF A CONCEPT CALLED "SWATANTRA BHARAT"(FREE INDIA) when we , as a nation did not even exist. WE DID NOT BOTHER about being "FREE". . .we still dont for that matter( bunch o crazy fools living in the glories o the past!). . ha! . . . .criticizm is one thing, Blaming and charecter assasination is something else, and when the victem is the mahatma. . it is actually appauling!. . . jsu goes to show how weak we are and . . . how ingnorant! SRINIVASA P CHAGANTI csphani@hotmail.com |
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sanju25 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 49 of 539 ) I hate Gandhi ...because he was the one who made Nehru ...prime minister. NEHRU who was no good then being made a clerk at some 3rd grade office. When there were millions in India without food...he was moving around with a rose in his coat. Gandhi and Nehru together did to India what no enemy cud ever do...Pakistan was created wholly on religious basis ...still this bastards...made our country secular and it's because of them that we have now more then 20 crores people in our own country who supports pakistan.... Think just once...abt our country India without those 20 crores people....and think how good and beutiful it wud have been.... |
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gigabyte 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 50 of 539 ) When they say the government is as good as the citizens its not all that wrong. Government and the citizens of this country have developed a habit of getting everything on a plate well cooked and well served. Only if we were born in a colonised rule would we appreciate a Gandhi. Only when we push the enemy back in Kargil, do we realise how important and courageous our army is. Once the euphoria of our galliant heroes victory is over, we go straight back to criticizing the defence forces. Lets face it thank your lucky stars and Mahatma for the independence you have got. Partition couldnt have been avoided with two power hungry Leaders vying for the top seat. |
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lekhak 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 51 of 539 ) It is truly sad that the youth in India dissrespect the Father of the Nation! I too was born way after Gandhiji had passed away but I respect him as a man of great inner strength ( I am unable to tell the truth in thought, word and deed even for one WHOLE day) and integrity. How can we point a finger at someone like him when I cannot be even an iota of what was good in him? And good there was plenty in him! Are any of today's youth willing to give up their careers or goals to mingle with the masses and live as poorly as them? I doubt it. If there are any out there, please write to me, I'd love to hear from you. let's make the sacrifices that Gnadhiji DID make, personal sacrifices before we judge him. Yes, I know millions of people had to leave their homes both in Pakistan and in India to move to the side of their religious afflictions. Yes, they suffered deeply. And, Gandhiji was not happy. It was Jinnah and Nehru who were because both had a vested interest - power. And what did Jinnah promise Gandhiji if he did not agree to the creation of Pakistan? Yes, rebellion!!!!But Gandhiji did not consider himself the ruler or the one in charge of India's independence. He started the work and considered EVERYONE who was in it, a part of a team! So, much as he was pained when the true natures of Nehru a d Jinnah surfaced, he did what he knew to be the best thing at that time. Yes, it backfired. Who expected the riots and the mess? If it were better organised, it would have had policemen along the border supervising the movement of the sad people who felt forced to move out. And, as for sacrifices, do you know any of his children or grandchildren? None of Gandhiji's children rose to any power. He was the father of the nation and in its true meaning he was there for the nation even before his family! A sacrifice way beyond even his mission!!!! If you hate the Nehrus so much, why is Sonia Gandhi in charge of the opposition? Ask yourselves this question. Isn't it time then that the Nehru dynasty, so to speak was kicked out?? But instead of focussing your energies on that, you waste it on a man who did his best for the country and gave us independence and lived like the poorest of the poor when he could have enjoyed his life as an elite lawyer. In the United States, George Washington is the father of the nation as its first President. Not everyone agrees with how he is glorified. In common conversations, his weaknesses are illustrated by many. But to rebuke him or denounce him or take away the honor of Father of the Nation doesn't even arise in their minds. So fellow youth, if you feel so strongly, serve your country, you are its future and become leaders who will give your children the life that your parents had dreamed for you. As them where their dreams are today! |
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ajayp 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 52 of 539 ) I think Gandhi was not as smart as he is made out to be. He was stupid to let muslims stay in India. Look at what is happening in every country that has a muslim minority. These muslims don't know anything about peaceful co-existence. Unless they are kicked out of india, there will be no peace. |
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arunk 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 53 of 539 ) The current sad state of India is obviously the lack of strong leaders and inefficiency to bring the rule of Law. We diluted the law , changed our icons and lives in a false world where there is a "No Entry" sign for Gandhi as well as Krishna or Allah. The right way to learn Gandhi is to learn Bhagvad Gita which is prohibited in Democracy. It is defenitely the need of the hour to redefine the democracy and bring in the lost ethics of Indain Dharma. |
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mandolin 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 54 of 539 ) The hatred of some people towards Gandhi is palpable. It has been over a half century since his assasination. It is time to bury the hatred. Disagreement and criticism of Gandhi is fine but personal hatred is a sign of a deeper problem. |
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mandolin 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 55 of 539 ) The criticism of Gandhi's support of British war efforts in 1914 is easy to refute. If the British had lost the war India would have become a part of the German empire. Gandhi was no fool. He realized India was better off under british rule. Gandhi made many mistakes but he was not ignorant of world affairs. |
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Admin 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 56 of 539 ) From Arish K Sahani Gandhi And Non-Violence Nonviolence fits in to a hindu tradition. Muslims didn't believe in and never acccepted the non-violance theory. No doubt nonviolence is good for all only if all practice. When other party tries violance on you, reply should be violence. |
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Admin 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 57 of 539 ) From Girish The Utter Irrelevance Of Gandhi? When we talk about Gandhi, we mean the ideas that he stood for. Behind all the momentous steps he had taken in his life was his belief in the importance of the removal of all obstacles to the free functioning of the human being as a member of the society. These obstacles might be an oppressive ruler, exploitation by fellowmen, violence and what have u. And this idea, in my opinion, will not ever be irrelevant. it remains for us to capture the wisdom that this icon (that is Bapu) stands for. For our own good. |
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jaimini 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 58 of 539 ) jaimini ram I think before anyone can criticise or praise Gandhi, they should read up more about him, especially his autobiography. Many just have a opinion based on hearsay, and is totally unjustified. After reading his autobigraphy, I feel Gandhi was a great person albeit a human one, and we should not expect perfectness from him. If I can accomplish even 10% of what he could do, it would be terrific. What I learnt was : 1)Non violence is a good basis, which works. 2) Do what you believe in, and dont be afraid. 3) Fight oppression. It was Gandhi's larger goal to fight this, of which the British was only a part. I have personally used his techniques in my life, and was surprised with the results. |
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susat 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 59 of 539 ) All the youth who slander M.K Gandhi have either not followed his works or read his auto biography. I have read his work and feel inspired by him. His belief in non-violence and his will to stand by honesty and truth is something the youth of India should follow. He was one of the leaders who played an important role in freeing India. One must not forget that. He was a man of truth and duty. |
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FIRE 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 60 of 539 ) I've read his biography, and the fact still remains that despite the turmoil around him he blindly stayed on the path, oblivious. Tacitly approving greater concessions to the moslems in return for peace, robbing the majority. There can never be true secularity in a clear majority, look at the US. Despite it's secular leanings the majority faith pervades every aspect of society. He was a foolish hindu, swindled by moslem chicanery. Should have killed him and Nehru earlier. Sardar Patel was the great loss not Gandhi |
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chase 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 61 of 539 ) 'FIRE' has manifested through his belligerant comments why Gandhi is still relevant. He speaks of annihilating those who are not as fundamentalistic as he probably is. And that is why we now miss Gandhi,especially in an era when youngsters believe more in gun than in grace |
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Manish 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 62 of 539 ) The Man walked on earth who dare to speak truth. He had not lived a luxury life which todays youth lived, he was like Abraham Lincoln of USA , . Mahatma Gandhi was a child of suffering , humiliation, lot of pain. He has FOUND OUT METHOD TO FIGHT Antibodoies in Indian Nation Body in such way that English people, and World leaders, war heroes have found out a new method which is sure. He was not a God, He didnt show BIG plans , Magic like other Bhagawans existed before and after Gandhiji. but he had given a path to Youth , a way to live with only Truth not anything else, he had showed a path of Daring, path of Surity, in life a mission in life todays youth is missing today. Those who believe in Mahatma Gandhi had done nothing to India, I request him to have CREAT some humiliation feeling what he had, what he SAW to THOUSAND FELLOW INDIAN was having, HE determind to find a way because he had felt it is not right thing. He suffered and found a way to Independence for us. He was Human, Not a Bhagwan like others. He may have made mistake. just like we make. But dont compare with Yourself.... Try what I have told You and tell me. can You rebell in a manner that you get success ? |
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WyzOne 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 63 of 539 ) Bah, what good did Gandhi's Non-violence movement do to us?? The Britishers found their hold over India untenable in the new world order and left us to our own devices giving that big headache know as Pakistan to us. The Congress party should have allowed Suhash Chandra Bose to take on the Britishers and should have backed the INA instead of chickening out from a righteous fight. |
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perfect 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 64 of 539 ) gandhi was more fundamentalist than anyone else. after all he was appeasing muslims in a never seen before manner. |
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perfect 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 65 of 539 ) manish its a fact that gandhi did live a life of great pain but remember he died in the cozy comfortable birla house |
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Tully 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 66 of 539 ) Gandhi's principles were sound. His philosophy was perfect. His realism was misplaced. His warnings will come back to haunt us in future. |
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bnsastry 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 67 of 539 ) Dear Editor, I have read many a criticism and praise for the mahatma. It is true that Gandhiji made some serious mistakes during his life but it is also true that he was able to guide the Independence movement to see its logical conclusion. I would never agree his attitude of appeasement towards Muslims and the silly compromises he made to achive the myth of Hindu-Muslim unity, be it the Khilafat movement or the clean chit he gave to the moplas in Kerala who massacred hundreds of Hindus. Nor is acceptable that he denied talking to the Viceroy to pardon Bhagat Singh and his revolutionary friends from death sentence. But he showed to the Indian Society that it is possible to live without the presence of a colonial foreign power. |
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gs92 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 68 of 539 ) Gandhi(Mahatma is not for him) was a week man who shied away from a just fight. Even krishna in GEETA says that you have to fight(with weapons, he didn't tell Arjun to go and adopt Non Violence agains the Kauravas) for what is yours as a birthright, look where his empty calls for non V have got us today, when we fight the world says look the followers of Gandhi are defying his teachings and when we don't we are called sissies. Gandhi was a COWARD who didn't have the guts to stand with a gun or a lathi in his Hand and face the Britishers. |
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thetruth 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 69 of 539 ) During partition Gandhi asked the Hindus fleeing from Pakistan to go back and peacefully face the massacre . The whole Hindu population is decimated in Pakistan and Hindus are being massacred in Bangladesh . Gandhi , the scoundrel , is partially responsible for the slaughter of Hindus .We shouldn't call him Mahatma . The asshole Gandhi always considered Hindu blood has no value , he always considered killing Hindus is the birthright of the Muslims . Nathuram should have killed this bastard earlier . Geeta is the book we should follow . It has said us to fight the satans , scoundrels and there are lots of them in Pakistan . |
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kvvamsi 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 70 of 539 ) shabash "thetruth", good work,why dont u write ur name,its better that way.yes,mahatma is the mother *****.he is definitely not a hindu,they are perverted hindus.the gita says "he who doesnt fights this righteous war indirectly spreads scandol and squalor,and though he is once respectable becomes despicable" This sucker didnt withdrew support to british during wwI even after the jalianwalabagh massacre,where thousands of iinnocent civilians are murdered. this person says"if one cheek is slapped show the other cheek".If ur soldiers get brutally killed and their bodies mutiliated at Pak border,then get the same thing done at Bangla border. Well said Mr.Father of the Nation,what a great message to already crippled nation had he been alie today,i would hae kille this phakir and all his gang. his birth day should be obsered as black day. regards, vamsi |
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hi_madan 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 71 of 539 ) Well don't go overboard. It is true we could have done without a few decisios of his, but to demean his entire effort is a unforgivable blunder. One decision would have been to make Vallabhai Patel, the leader of the nation instead of Nehru , who wasted a wonderful opprtunty to take back Kashmir, by inanely bringign back the troops from the Kashmir border after wining the war, stupid f*#$%er. |
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Raj 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 72 of 539 ) Easy to badmouth Gandhi in hindsite. bigger fault lies with current leaders and with indian public who votes in these fools. Yes - Ahimsa taken to extremes. yes - Valabhai patel better 4 defence Yes - Nehru made mistakes. but - current leaders no better. Yes - Indian population talks big Yes - everyone fills pockets-screw rest Yes - Capable people leaving india. Right to bear arms would be good. Hindus need to follow Gita Geeta says to fight for right. ALL Indians need to keep religion at HOME and be loyal to country. ALL anti Indian activities should be crushed. Indian madrasas should be hammered Missionaries should be severly limited. CHURCH leaders should be STATE appointed. VAtican should be treated as foreign power with priests manipulating indian Public. Corrupt Indians in govt and public services should be chastised. |
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romeo 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 73 of 539 ) Whoever is exctitedly writing against Gandhi just for a second think this way: "had i been born in 1859 would i have done as much as gandhi had done for a cause he believed in?" infact if u guys want to know what u would have done let me help you. we all know there is rampant corruption in the society now which is nearly as dangerous as the british ruling us. what have u done about it till now? let me guess. "nothing" then who gives u the right to oppose Gandhi? Have u read his books, about his principle in detail? if not what r u opposing? isn't remaing silent better than posting angry, excited messages with little thought to back it up? |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 74 of 539 ) romeo, It is a free country and it is the right of any and every citizen to p!ss on gandhi for all the mental baggage he has dumped on Indians. If cretins like you had any brains at all, you would realize that while Gandjhi made some brilliant strategic moves and was single-handedly responsible for creating a mass anti-brit movement in India, he is not a demigod without any faults. His principle has NO BEARING or relevance in today's world, where money, power, and weapons are essential to safeguard oneself. Morons who go around preaching non violence probably have not bothered to keep up with world events in the last few decades. |
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Jenna 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 75 of 539 ) The sexiest men on the net: Click Here For The Sexiest Indian Men On The Net |
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maky 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 76 of 539 ) Gandhi's main fault was his hallucination that he was the greatest human ever lived.He forgot his duty towarsds his followers who believed blindly in him.When it was very clear in 1947 that partition was inevitable, he should have taken more rational stand eather than sticking to his image of a mahatma and saviour of humanity.That marred India's future in long run.After effects are still not over or rather aggravated. |
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asif 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 77 of 539 ) It's always so easy to criticise in retrospect. The main problem with us Indians is that we have placed him on a pedestal like a "god", and then judge him also in same light. Please consider him just as another human being, and appreciate his his search for truth, his belief in himself and his extra-oridnary will power, that brought a might nation ti it's heels.Today India is one of the most stable of the previous colonized nations and this is a legacy of Nehru and Gandhi. That we didn't joined any camp during cold war helped us immensely, the fate of our neighbour is all too apparent. At present if you look around there is hardly any politician who has national intrest more dear to him , than his own personal or party's intrest. This includes all leaders whether of Congress or BJP or any regional party. |
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asif 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 78 of 539 ) First, make no mistake, toughness is a quality of mind not physical strength or body. So those who call him coward , just back-off. You have to be tough to live by your principles, my friends don't forget that, "it's always easier to fight for your principles than to live by them". If your cause is just and intentions good, than of course you do fight. Don't forget that there was a armed resistance to british also by Bose. But in this world it's not always most smart thing to do, esp when you want to mould the public opinion of whole world, and want to make them see your point. Non-voilence was also very succesfuly used by Martin .L.King in his fight for civil rights. And for god sake don't glorify Godse who was a coward to kill a man so old to him and one to whom they couldn't match in any debate. Had he be right why was Hindu Mahasabha not able to mould public opinion to their side, India was always a democracy, there were other means of poltical expression. |
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Suchen 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 79 of 539 ) After reading the messages posted here .I am sure that ignorance and India go hand in hand. I am not going to plead about the greatness of Gandhiji to people who are impaired in more than one sense .It would be like belittling the image of a great person. When people all around the world live peacefully through Gadhiji's principles. People in India alone brood about it. To put it in Gandhiji's word's . " We must be the change,We wish to see in the world" . There is no use in complaining other's for the problems we face. |
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Sanjeev 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 80 of 539 ) You guys are nuts! The guy to remember today is Gandhi, for getting rid of this malaise. Hail Nathuram!. Hail RSS! Hail VHP! Gandhi made Pakistan. Let's unite it with Akhand Bharat! |
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vishag 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 81 of 539 ) 1) Irrelevant then 2) Irrelevant now and 3) Irrelevant for ever " I promise , I will let my body to be cut into pieces ; but I will never allow division of hindustan OR formation of Pakistan." : By Mahatma Gandhi (Harijan 22-9-1942) |
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vishag 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 82 of 539 ) 1) Irrelevant then 2) Irrelevant now and 3) Irrelevant for ever " I promise , I will let my body to be cut into pieces ; but I will never allow division of hindustan OR formation of Pakistan." : By Mahatma Gandhi (Harijan 22-9-1942) |
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luvvmann 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 83 of 539 ) gandhi is undoubtedly a great man. however, undoubtedly he is also irrevelevant. he did not forsee partition of the country and could not prevent it. has is actally a total failure. but, he is still agreat man that history will remember. |
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kiran_OL 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 84 of 539 ) No doubt that Gandhi is great in terms of Practical Philosophy....His life itself is a philosophy. If you choose non-violent methods...you will see the result after a long time but...long lasting...may be solution forever, thatswhy he might have choosen...i can say......having partial and temporary solutions for the problem with violent methods, it would be good to have permanent, long lasting solutions...He never supported the partition, before or at the time of partition..if you look at the meetings he involved or speeches...whatever.... Atlast, He is a great gift to India. |
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uachyutu 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 85 of 539 ) Our generation have no right to blame Mahatma. We lost our culture? Is it because of Gandhi? We are electing the gundas, dakus and rapists to assemblies, Parlament? Is this also because of Gandhi? We are not winning a single cup in cricket? Is this also because of Gandhi? Our secular fabric of the country is becoming thin? Is it because of Gandhi? More population in the country? Is it because of Gandhi? Corruption we have in every stage of life, is it becuase of Gandhi?I do not see any of the above problems is because of Mahatma. These are the ills which we took for our comfort, relegion, beliefs etc.. The guys who are blaming Gandhi, better check the root causes of the current day problems and relate to Mahatma? I am happy to debate anything on Mahatma. We have no other leader in our country to talk, tell and teach the outside world as great as other than Mahatma. No other Indian leader in textbooks of world except Mahatma. Please do not talk silly things about him and try to ignore his great stature. Mind it please. |
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luvvmann 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 86 of 539 ) uachyutu, your defense of gandhi is genuine. however, we are not debating if gandhi was great. undounbtedly he was one of the greatest human beings born. however, his philosophy is not applicable in all cases. especially with fanatics like the islamic fanatics. india has suffered a lot due to the false parroting of non-violence. non-violence was interpreted in india by some as military unpreparedness. that is suicide. india paid dearly for it. example- chinese occupation of tibet and eventual humiliation of india. continued soft line towards pakistan even though only military solution is possible with pakistan. think about it. |
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cynicism 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 87 of 539 ) I have nothing against Gandhi the man ...But I am REALLY happpy if the youth is disillusioned by him and his non-violent methods. His method got popular in India because deep inside, indians are cowards. They have been so since the time they stopped WINNING wars(a millenium ago).... People decry corruption, lack of values etc in the indian society, but mortal fear and the fear to kill even justly is THE BASIC EVIL .....And if people are now realising hitting back when hit is the natural human response, it's a good thing for the country. Gandhi said that tit for tat will erase the whole world and being victim is noble.... WITH ALL THE UNDESERVED REGARDS TO HIM, I beg to differ. |
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luvvmann 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 88 of 539 ) i agree with cynicism. hindu cowardice disguised as non-violence is the root cause of india's problems. it started with muslim invasions and to this day hindus are compromising as they want the easy way out. there are instances where there are no easy ways out and war is the only answer. either you live with dignity or you will be insulted. pakistan insults india because indians (read hindus) allow it. even within india muslims continue to insult hindus. it is because hindus are mostly cowards and do not retaliate. hence, gandhi chose the path that hindus would be comfortable with. singing bhajans, sending mixed messages, avoiding confrontation etc. this only led to massive violence as the muslim psyche implicitly believes in violence as a legitimate tool. gandhi is great, his philosophy meant for civilized people but the world is not all civilized. hence, the problem. |
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Tathagat 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 89 of 539 ) appa DeepO bhava ... gr8 gift to India!!! great gift to humanity rather... wonder how much bloodshed would have taken place only if MLK Jr. and Mandela wouldn't have been influenced by this jaadoogar... am glad... he is at least alive in grandma tales... Editorial and Perspective The Statesman 30th Jan: Our lost Mahatma : On Mahatma Gandhi¿s death anniversary, ROOMA MEHRA recalls how a grandma¿s tale seems to have been rendered irrelevant in a day and age when a paradigm of humanity has died many times over in a scheme of things where people would rather repose their faith in God-politicians There were five of us in the car that day, including little Rohit and his daadi. All of us listened quietly to the universal daadi¿s story being narrated to the child. The little one nestled his head further in his daadi¿s lap as she neared the end of her fascinating tale. ¿They started calling the thin, bespectacled man with the smile of a child a `miracle-maker¿ after that.¿ Little Rohit piped in, ¿And was he, daadi? Was he really a magician and was his `dandi¿ really a magic wand?¿ ¿No¿, replied daadi with a sigh, ¿He loved human beings, that is all.¿ ¿And where is he now, daadi? What is he doing?¿ The petite old lady, with wise eyes and a toothless smile reminiscent of her story¿s hero, fell silent. After a heavy pause, she looked questioningly at me and whispered, so that her words would only reach me, ¿Nobody talks of him anymore. Nobody remembers him any more. In fact, I should not even be telling a child his story. It is too old and forgotten. Should I tell him that after weeping tears of blood, he died once again?¿ My sister parked the car that very moment. Daadi¿s words, magnified ten-fold in the dying noise of the engine, hit all the occupants of the car with the force of a sledge-hammer. They seemed ominously suspended in the silence that followed. Little Rohit looked close to tears. There was the sudden squeak of three car windows being rolled down simultaneously as the minutes weighed heavy on our minds, in search of a suitable reply that could wipe out that expression from the child¿s eyes. I wondered when my sister would return. [Cont... Next Post] |
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Tathagat 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 90 of 539 ) appa DeepO bhava Cont... #2. ...She had disappeared inside one of the shops in that quaint marketplace under the Safdarjung flyover. Quaint, in the sense that one moment a huge and intricately carved door flanked by two life-size elephants gazed benevolently at you and the next it suddenly gave way to a crumbling, moss-covered cement of the flyover. Bare wall ¿ its monotony broken by five polythene bags hanging equidistant from each other.There were three bricks holding up some ashes from a dead fire. It was all rather curious, and the full implication of that bizarre relief of the bulging polythene bags failed to register in my preoccupied state of mind. It hit me as my eyes travelled to the legends, in all their unabashed poverty, carved in the grimes of time on the bare wall of the flyover. I read the first legend, ¿Bal Kishen, Jhuggi No 2¿. A swallow later, my eyes moved to the next ragged polythene bag. Secured tightly at the mouth, it contained all the worldly belongings of ¿Bal Karan. Jhuggi, No 5¿. ¿Om Prakash, Jhuggi No 12¿ boasted two polythene bags ¿ one bigger than the other. They were hung vertically so as not to encroach upon the territorial rights of the neighbour. The declaration (also in Hindi) common to all inhabitants of that cold bit of concrete that went by the name of ¿jhuggis¿ glared at me, ¿Ration card hai!¿ Almost unbidden, the image of the thin, bespectacled man appeared in my mind from the cold heavens above. I wondered whether Bal Kishen and Bal Karan and their families also braved the cold winter nights in their solitary dhotis. I wondered if the old miracle-maker could bring about any ¿miracle¿ in the lives of these children of God if he were here. I guessed, he probably would not have the time. He would be too busy, the solitary messiah, trying to convince people of their being human, too busy trying to find for them their lost gods. That they had little food and no shelter and shivered their nights away could be looked into after bringing them to the level ground of sanity where they were not killing each other in the name of the gods they lost so long ago, when they entrusted their faiths in the keeping of the shrewd any ugly ¿God-politicians¿. Today, I wonder how many times our lost Mahatma has died in almost 55 years of my country¿s Independence. |
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maky 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 91 of 539 ) Luvvmann thinks that Gandhi's philosophy is for civilised people.I would argue take the peaceful time throughout the human history.You will find most of the time man was at war for existence.Non violence is bullshit as long as there is struggle for existence.I am not talking only about physical violence.Think about the mental violence going everywhere.It is culmination of technological revolution.Only form of violence has changed.If you observe your day to day working,wherever you are working,you will find so much of mental violence goes on in the form of bitching,gossip,innuendo.Human race's or rather this universe's basic nature is violent.Think of Big Bang,the origin of universe.When origin itself is violent how one can adhere to the flawed ideology of Gandhi and his ilk. |
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yagacho 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 92 of 539 ) i think gandhian ideal of non-violence is still as relevant as it was in last century. basically war and non-violence has coexisted throughout human history reflecting the worst and best of human nature. however non-violence should not misinterpreted as cowardice. i would say non-violence is where you dont hit first and cowardice is when you dont hit back. deterrence is a must but aggression is not. |
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luvvmann 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 93 of 539 ) maky, i did not say that gandhian philosophy is for civilized people. it sometimes works under civilized norms. certainly it will not work with the likes of the pakistanis, jehadis, chinese commies etc. only force is the answer for them. thanks. |
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Tathagat 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 94 of 539 ) appa DeepO bhava They did not listen; and he prayed That He, the loving Lord of all, Who comforth the poor and weak And saveth those who sin and fall, May lead them to the path of light, And teach them how to live in peace; Or spare him in his weary age, The sight of fratricidal war. And then he fasted – and they came And prayed to him to eat and live; And vowed to be as brothers all. And peace and calm was then restored In fair Calcutta, and again In Delhi, seat of ancient kings. But soon again the gathering clouds Broke in the north and over the wet; And tales of horror shook the land – Murder and fire and ravage grim, And fury 'gainst the young and old – Mother and child and man and maid – And deeds of shame more deep than death. And then he prayed again that He The loving Lord of all the world, His erring children spare, and take Instead him as a sacrifice – So there be peace within the land! There was a band of fiery men, Who thought that he, the best of all The Hindus had, by words of peace Wrought weakness in their fainting hearts, And given to those intent on war Across the border, cause to gloat In triumph o’er their hideous deeds. And so they vowed that he should die – That there be peace within the and. And one of them in secret came, And mingled with the waiting crowd; And as this man of God approached With folded palms to join in prayer – Advanced, knelt, kissed his feet–and then, Ere any arm could interpose, Lifted his hand and shot him through Thrice . . . . . Journalist Gandhi : Selected Writings of Gandhi How Nonviolence Works |
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Tathagat 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 95 of 539 ) appa DeepO bhava All Creatures are Crying for a New Birth of Thine (Buddha)The world today is wild with the delirium of hatred, All creatures are crying for a new birth of Thine, O Serene, 0 Free, Though giver of immortal gifts In the splendour of a new sunrise of wisdom O Serene, 0 Free, Man's heart is anguished with the fever of unrest, Countries far and wide flaunt on their O Serene, 0 Free, (Rabindranath Tagore) |
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Phoenix 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 96 of 539 ) TO ALL GANDHI LOVERS: I don't hate person gandhi but his hypocrisy. If you think, bristish or west respect him, you are dead wrong. They use gandhi's name to remind India that India has no right to use voilence. Let me give you few example of how noble he was- 1. He was not a member of congress but ruled congress with iron fist. Most the the puppet congress president were nominated by him. When Subhash Chandra Bose arrived on the scene and won election against Mahatma's candidate, he was pushed and forced to resign by Gandhi and Nehru. 2. Do you know, out of 15 Pradesh Congress Committees in 1946/47, 13 supported Sardar patel as Prime Minister and 2 wanted Kriplani to be PM but guess who won the race..Mahatma's boy Nehru. Patel was forced to back off by Mahatma and his disciple Nehru. 3. Mahatma Condemned Bhagat SIngh, Udham Singh and other revolutionaries for their fight against British. He felt he was the only patriot. 4. After 1947, Mahatma started blckmailing India by going on fast. Now let me tell you few facts- - At the time of Independence, India had 200 crores in reserves. We agreed to give 75 crores to pakistan (please not pak's population and size at that time). 20 crores were paid before pak got its freedom and 55 was to be given after. - In 1947, India owed approx 200 crores to various industrialist and other sources. Pakistan refused to share the burden of loan and we agreed..thanks to Mahatma once again. - Pakistan invaded Kashmir and India went to war. Our Mahatma went on indefinite fast to pay 55 crores to pak at that time (Patel insisted that it should be paid after war is over in kashmir but he was sidelined)..He blackmailed the while nation because he knew people genuinely loved his mahatmagiri. He started considering himself above nation. 4. I agree Mahatma was a great PERSON but he screwed up India big time. I agree that the only way to stop Gandhi was to kill him. He had plans to settle in pakistan permanently forgetting the sacrifice on millions who died because of partition. He just wanted to be great..full of Natak Nautanki.... The real people (patel - who united India) and Subhash Chandra Bose were sidelined and all thanks to great Mahatma... I don't know whether you know about Udham Singh or not. I don't think South Indians have ever heard of Udham Singh.. Anyway let me tell you an incident- When Udham Singh was caught (after killing Criminal of Jalianwala Bagh) in london, he was put in Jail. He was member of Gadar party. Many of the gadarites came to see him and he asked what was the reaction in India? They said 'People are proud of what you have done. You have taken revenge of Jalianwala Bagh'..Udham Singh asked 'What is Country's loved Bapu Saying?' and the reply came 'Bapu says that an act of madman should not spoil relation between Empire and India'.. These are the words used by BAPU for a person who dedicated his life to avenge humiliation of Jalianwala Bagh. If you don't know about Jalianwala Bagh, please read some history.. I hate What GANDHI did, not a man called Gandhi. To call him father of nation is insulting our great ancestors like Buddha, Ashoka, Vikramaditya, Sher shah Suri, Akbar, Nanak, Kabeer etc.. |
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Tathagat 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 97 of 539 ) appa DeepO bhava All Gaandhiis are goin' outta business... and now bajrangii raavans doin' fast unto death... ha! tathagat gone broke too... if tathagat is not able 2 continue his fight against... Nukes... wars... riots... bajarangiis... here than someone will carry on... that he is pretty sure... he JB we in the same boat... JB at K yahoo forum... Hi, Just for the sake of orientation.. if in the near future, I shall not be posting much here, it is due to my being one of the lucky ones to be fired from my job,.. where I had a PC,.. which I do not have home. Anyways, I'll probably manage it from libraries, untill I eventually get a PC. And certainly, if in the meantime I become illuminated and reasonably enlightened, I'll write and tell you all about it ... :-) Till then, wish you all a good enquiry in a friendly athmosphere ! .. and after all, we do not do it Only for ourselves, but for the mind, which the whole of humanity, shares. So now, I'd better leave the concrete-walls of my office, and go out in the world, the sun and keep a bit of company with the trees .. I might find, that life is somewhat more extensive and rich, than this flat screen with dots on. Best wishes, Jb |
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joy 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 98 of 539 ) Yaar Gandhi is so last-season. Singhal-Vajpayee-Advani are our latest saviors. Go RSS, go VHP! |
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GAYATHRI 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 99 of 539 ) www.cry.org/you/youcando.htm Gandhiji was NOT PERFECT. But his views ARE RELEVANT TODAY. One of his emphasis was that the means was as important as the ends, example Chauri Chaura incident where he called off the non-cooperation movement when a mob burnt alive policemen. Today terrorism for one is freedom fight for another. And many have these have been turned into ego battles between leaders and ultimately the followers are the sufferers. Yes we can easily find many incidents to criticise Gandhi. But anyday i prefer Gandhism than the "global leader" George W Bush's hypocritic "War on Terrorism" and "Axis of evil". |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 100 of 539 ) Tathagat... sorry man and take care |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 101 of 539 ) Tathagat... sorry man and take care |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 102 of 539 ) Tathagat... sorry man and take care |
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GAYATHRI 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 103 of 539 ) www.cry.org/you/youcando.htm Today the IRA has issued an apology after 30 years of violence. They havent become Gandhians but just a pointer to the utter irrelevance of policy of violence. "The Irish Republican Army issued an unprecedented apology for hundreds of deaths it had caused over 30 years, a surprise gesture that could ease a crisis threatening the survival of Northern Ireland's government. The IRA, noting the approach of the anniversary of its bloody Friday bombing campaign in Belfast 30 years ago, said it was "appropriate on the anniversary of this tragic event, that we address all of the deaths and injuries of noncombatants caused by us. We offer our sincere apologies and condolences to their families". " |
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bhartiye 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 104 of 539 ) "Gandhiji was NOT PERFECT. But his views ARE RELEVANT TODAY". Gayathri, pl note Gandhi views was not the mantra for mediation between two warring parties. That is really not the case. Gandhism is the mantra of the appeasement of one warring party at the cost of another. |
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sarah 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 105 of 539 ) Gandhi was caught up in a paradoxical position of wanting to appropriate part of the "spirit" of modern civilization while rejecting the very institutions and social structures that embodied and nurtured it. It seems to me that this is precisely what Gandhi was doing trying, "dialectically," to overcome modernity without repealing it. Yet it is to Gandhi's credit the extent he went to retrieve values and virtues that are at home in an earlier era - a view of wealth and power as a "trusteeship" held for the sake of a common good, a suspicion of progress for progress's sake, a concern for the quality of local communities and their settled ways of life, a view of human self-governance as something other than interest-brokering and manipulative self-seeking. |
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jaga 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 106 of 539 ) Gandhi was a traitor. http://peoplesforum.com/cgi-bin/forum?14@104.zQHfa RndqfT.20@.1f54b9be/17 |
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asif 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 107 of 539 ) To call gandhi a traitor is to lack any idea about India's freedom struggle.buzz off man.Make no mistake, toughness is a quality of mind not physical strength or body. So those who call him coward , just back-off. You have to be tough to live by your principles, my friends don't forget that, "it's always easier to fight for your principles than to live by them". If your cause is just and intentions good, than of course you do fight. Don't forget that there was a armed resistance to british also by Bose. But in this world it's not always most smart thing to do, esp when you want to mould the public opinion of whole world, and want to make them see your point. Non-voilence was also very succesfuly used by Martin .L.King in his fight for civil rights, and he mentions in his autobiography the influence of gandhi on his whole psyche. |
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luvvmann 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 108 of 539 ) asif, the topic here is whether gandhian methods work with islamic fanatics. i think the answer to that is a resounding no. |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 109 of 539 ) Whare in the topic are Islamic fanatics mentioned O mr. Lowman?.. |
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luvvmann 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 110 of 539 ) gandalf, please pluck your head out of the muslim ass. isn't it suffocating. |
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jaga 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 111 of 539 ) muslims never beleive in ahmsa/non violence, On the contrary they beleive in violence through jehad. Right now there are about 15 percent muslims in india, even then india has teething troubles with this perticular community. Think of what will happen when they grow out to be 30 percent? jeena haram kar denge hinduoo ka, in connivance with pakistan, which they think carries their insurance policy. HINDUS WAKE UP, OR GO 2 GRAVES. |
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sanjayin 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 112 of 539 ) topic is irrelevant |
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luvvmann 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 113 of 539 ) jaga, i completely agree with your statement. 30% of muslims in india will lead to a civil war and utter violence. either hindus understand this or face the consequences. muslims in india think this "last time we misbehaved" we got pakistan. wait another 30-40 years. misbehave again, we can probably get another pakistan. continue the process and destroy india (hindus). the process has started. hindus watch out. |
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sumer 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 114 of 539 ) M. Gandhi was irrelevant then and is irrelvant now. All Gandhi did was to tiehindus hands behind and let Muslims rape, murder, and behead hindus in thousands. In my opinion, Gandhi was nothing short of a traitor to India. |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 115 of 539 ) Why do you guys hate Gandhi so much if he is irrelevant? |
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sanjayin 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 116 of 539 ) Our Father of the Nation was not a hypocrite. In India, unfortunately ,hypocrisy leads to higher positions. All politicians and even so called intellectuals they are big hypocrites. In case of Gandhi, this smart gentleman dared express certain things in his autobiography published in 1930s which anyone of us will not like confess even today. He accepted he used to take beef, he was with his wife when his father was taking last breath. His sleeping with young nude girls was also known to everyone. He was quite ahead of his time. The time when he advocated non-violence as a tool, everone used to just believe in power. The noble concept was floated by him and we got our ndependence without loss of many lives. You have to really study all his works and put yourself in that era to really conclude anything. Before the killers of this saint took over power in India, people used to think that this man would be worshipped like God after 100 years. Miscompaign has led to this peculiar situation . When Gandhi can be rebuked, anyone can be. The man was so blessed, when he died , name of God was on his lips. Our present politicians would have beenuttering Bachao,Bachao or Maro,Maro. |
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sridhars 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 117 of 539 ) Are we talking of M(muslim) Gandhi,the Father of the nation(Pakistan)????Does he assume so much of significance so as to have a discussion about him??Why is that the case?We are better off not discussing about him and waste our time. |
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pka 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 118 of 539 ) No wonder why we have a communal party at the centre. People like luwmann are the great patriots who vote for them. India will never improve as long as people like him are around. India doesn't mean hindus. India means indains. |
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hyderaba 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 119 of 539 ) PKA, thank you for making a sane point. |
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hyderaba 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 120 of 539 ) Jaga, muslims never beleive in ahmsa/non violence, On the contrary they beleive in violence through jehad. your quote from above suggests that violence is only committed by Muslims. Who killed Gandhi...both Rajiv and Mahatma? What about all the violence poured upon the Sikh community in the 80's. What about burning a Christianity missionary in his car with his children? Stop w/ your moral superiority bit. You are human just like the rest of us..Muslim and Hindu. Being a Muslim does not make you perfect or a devil.Neither does being a Hindu. |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 121 of 539 ) hyderaba, i guess you are assming Jaga is reasonable. I doubt it. They are usually programmed in a shaka (sort of wound up like a tom and Jerry decoy mouse) and let go. The spring is rewound at every vist to the shaka. |
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hyderaba 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 122 of 539 ) gandalf, I would be nice if we could all sit in a cafe and resolve our differences. That is optimistic but this forum is a type of cyber cafe. We won't resolve differences but I do think that opinions are adjusted. Thanks for reading. |
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rajivm99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 123 of 539 ) The world has to realise that it is only the Muslim child who opens his eyes to the world seeing a hapless innocent animal like a lamb sliced slowly and blood oozing out and that too as a part of religious act. How can such people coexist with civilised non-violent world ? The world has to factor this while dealing with Islam as well as the fact that there is no place for reform in this religion. |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 124 of 539 ) Dear Rajiv: Jews also see the same. Christians (western/ Eastern/ Africam? asian etc) also indirectly see the same as they are meat eaters. But I have seen as much compassion and humanity among meat eaters, hunters etc as among vegiterian if not more. So your hypothesis is flawed, biased and incorrect |
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Bee 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 125 of 539 ) Gandhi is irrelevant today if Independence from the British is irrelevant. Gandhi was a lawyer practising in South Africa. Discrimination made him return to his country. Where again he found discrimination. Yes there were rebels against the British. From 1857, the first revolt, Indians rebelled. Without much success. Gandhi gave people the courage to stand up for themselves. To not allow themselves to be browbeaten by strength. The Dandi March, a beautifully organized protest that moved the masses, and more importantly, brought them together. The little random rebellions metamorphosed into a strong movement. The Indians now had direction. They knew what to do. It was stunningly simple. You do not need weapons, you do not need training in arms, you need belief in yourself and the strength to stand up to the gora sahib. If it costs you yor life, so be it. Allow me to live free or die. Period. You could do it, I could do it, anyone who was oppressed could do it. Just stand up and say no more. I think it was brilliant. And it got us our Independence. The British had to pretend to be civilized. They could not randomly shoot people down for not listening. Simple Civil Disobedience. And now suddenly it's all about fight fight fight. Especially the muslims. They are 15% of the country, but who cares. Fight them until they cower and yelp. And that's not enough. Fight them until they are all dead. Why? Free country after all. Democracy. They support Pakistan. They are traitors. They hate Hindus. So kill them. By the thousands. No matter that they are human beings, not even animals. It is barbaric to kill animals, but not muslims, oh no. They all deserve to die. Women, Children, young girls and boys, all Indian, killed by Indians. Wonderful. Marvelous. Finally, hindus are waking up. Wielding power. Revelling in their strength. Killing. Really patriotic. The best thing for the country, really. Satisfy your bloodlust. Do not look back or you may weep. |
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Tathagat 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 126 of 539 ) appa DeepO bhava Punch Dhaatu, a poam by Sarveshvar Dyal Saxena MeiN jaanta hooN kya hoo'a tumhaarii langoTii ka, adhiikaariyoN ke bille banaane ke kaam aa gayii, aur tumhaarii laaThii, ussii ko tek kar chal rahii hai eik bad-dimaagH Dagmagatii satta, tumhaara chashma uss se lagaa har koii dikha raha hai andhoN ka karishma, tumhaarii chappal, gHariibii ki chaand ganjii karne ke kaam aa rahii hai. Aur ghaRii desh kii nabz kii tarah band paRii hai, achhchha hoo'a tum chale gaye varna tumhaare tan ka ye jan naayak kya karte pata nahiN . |
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Shoki 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 127 of 539 ) Tathagat will undoubtedly provide a better and more literal translation, but since many may not understand Hindustani here, here's a rough translation of the above: Five Metals I know what became of your loin-cloth It was useful to make tags for officials And your stick? Watching out for it, only, stumbles this deranged stumbling government your spectacles? someone is continuously using for a blindman's bluff your slippers are proving useful for hitting the poor with and your watch is lying dead like the pulse of the nation it's good you went away otherwise who knows what these people's leaders would have done to your body |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 128 of 539 ) sad... but true |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 129 of 539 ) It is a pity that this asshole Gandhi was not killed right after the dandi march. Bastard started this whole trend of excusing muslim bigotry and communalism. According to this "Pater of the nation", the only way to counter islamic violence and bigotry is via love. His naivete and megalomania are some of the main reasons India is in the shit today. Stay dead, motherfucker, India has no use for you. |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 130 of 539 ) Hilarious, can we have one useful thing the RSS brigade has done for the country other than provide a ready market for Khakhi. "Stay dead, motherfucker, India has no use for you." Hahahaha.. and India has spoken, Hahahahahah |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 131 of 539 ) Gandalf: Those are my personal views. India's muslim fundamentalist problem is rooted in Gandoo's "return love for muslim hate" philoshopy, which has in turn created a hindu right-wing that is a mirror image of the muslim right-wing, and understandably so. Hindus have a right to protect their lives from muslim vandalism and thuggery that was winked at for many decades by the "secular" govts in power between 1977 and 1996. |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 132 of 539 ) I have lost some of my childhood friends to random slaughtering by muslims in coimbatore about 4 years ago. These people's crime was wearing sacred ash on their foreheads and walking down the street from their home to the nearest bust stop. These people are apolitical and have a family that is their main concern. So excuse me if have no tolerance for the "peace" bullshit spewed by all the devious "muslim secularists" (a phrase along the lines of military intelligence) and secular shits like you who would like Indians to look the other way when the Imam Alis and the shahbuddin kill and maim hindus in the name of islam. |
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MindBend 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 133 of 539 ) I could not stop myself posting my views about Gandhi. I agree in principle to Karapall but would not abuse him.HE WAS A MAN FULL OF CONTRADICTIONS. I belive he has sacrficed his life for 'Independence' but in addition to giving us indpendence he has taken its cost. Firstly -by making 'Jawahar- The Bisexual MotherFucker' as PrimeMinister of the country, secondly -by not acknowledging the contributions made by revolutinaries like Netaji, Bhagat Singh and Azad, thirdly - by acknowlwdging India's divsion. Gandhi was a leader of people who lacked balls to fight aka lesser man.They say nation's destiny is characterized by the leader it has and no wonder we are such a passive nation , our soldiers , our people get killed , what do we do ? Nothing !!! Gandhi's philosphy , huh? We see a picture of our soldier , hung like a chicken carried by Bangladeshis , what do we do ? Nothing.WE PREACH PEACE. We have an exapnmle beofre us , USA , I'm no India baitor but Ameirca's war of independence do gives us some lessons or for that matter few hundread Americans kicked butts of 4000 mexican soldiers and won over Texas. That is what we needed while fighting and we had leader in Bose , Bhagat Singh and Azad and many other not so known young revoluitinaries but we chose to follow a lesser man.Any way, Gandhi's killing by Godse has been projected aa terrorist act , which is not true. Though Godse's act has to be condemned but no one can doubt his utter nationalist feelings out of which he did this.Lastly Bapu , If I were to be in your time , I would kill you too. You have failed us. Vande Matram |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 134 of 539 ) "Bisexual MotherFucker' as PrimeMinister of the country, secondly -by not acknowledging the contributions made by revolutinaries like Netaji, Bhagat Singh and Azad," You have to ask yourself why this half-naked asshole who apparently had forgone all desires, was still craving for publicity and hero-worship just like any prima-donna/rock-star would nowadays. Clearly, this bastard was quite concerned about having his name recorded in history books overshadowing all his erstwhile co-freedom fighters and was willing to let millions of hindus get slaugtered for that purpose. I piss on this motherfucker gandhi and his shenanigans. Worse still, the communist/pseudo-secular motherfuckers saw an opening in gandhi's tactics (which PROVED to these communists that the hindus could be easily divided and conquered) and went around wearing Khadi caps and rolex watches and preaching about the grand status of Gandhi in Indian history and wrote paeans to his simplicity and his courage with their parker pens while travelling in their Mercedes Benz. Despicable pseudo-secular shits. |
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MindBend 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 135 of 539 ) I dont't disagree with you Karapall. But I would talk like that once I have had six beers 'cus then I would not think about his goodness. He had some amount of goodwill and deremination to free India. His contribution ends there.The fact of the matter is 'HE WAS JUST NOT A MAN ENOUGH'. |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 136 of 539 ) Interesting!. Worms like Karapall say that Gandhi did nothing for the country. Others say that he had no balls. If so then where were all these glorious balls during the independence struggle.. Why did the people listen to gandhi?. There is an inherent contradiction.. Or maybe because the guys with balls were pleging their allegiace to the British aka rss guru XXXwalkar |
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user_ID 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 137 of 539 ) Why abuse the man? What's your point? That you are literate enough to abuse in English? You pricks are all so cozy in your criticism of someone who sacrificed so much for others. And all this while, you sit 6000 miles away from this country sipping beers and talking in dollars. Get a perspective on your life, instead of bitching about someone else's. |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 138 of 539 ) Gandalf: " Why did the people listen to gandhi?" That is an easy question. The question that I would like to focus on is: " When he understood that people were listening to him and were hero-worshipping them, why did he mislead them and make them act against their own interests?" Why did he play down muslim communalism, while staying the hand of hindus who should have taken revenge, JUST to prove to the muslims back then that hindus might be easy going, but they are not lambs for the muslim slaughterhouse. Maybe we could have avoided all the communal riots after independence if Indian muslims had learnt this lesson sooner rather than later. |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 139 of 539 ) Mindbend: "He had some amount of goodwill and deremination to free India. His contribution ends there" Actually, he was a brilliant strategist, who figured out how the british were holding on to power in India, and found a simple effective way (salt satyagraha) to break that hold. The man was not a politician, and was manipulated by various politically-minded muslims like Abul Kalam Azad (who is infamous for having told gandhi that even a muslim murderer was a better person in the eyes of Allah than Gandhi). |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 140 of 539 ) user_ID: "And all this while, you sit 6000 miles away from this country sipping beers and talking in dollars." And how did you come to this conclusion, dipshit? While I would certainly like to sip beer in a local pub, I am just as Indian as you are. Just because you are an imbecile, it does not mean you are a better Indian than I am, or that I am resident of Malta or USA. I live in Bangalore, if you really want to know. EVen otherwise, NRIs bring in valuable foreign exchange to the country. What the fuck have you done for India lately? Better a Non-Resident Indian, than a Resident Non-Indian like the left-wing worthies. |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 141 of 539 ) The RSS dipshits should clog up their bungholes and not speak about economic issues. A country like India needs investment and an Industrial base, not more farm-oriented small-scale industries. It did not work in the 50s and 60s, or worked only for a short while, and there is no reason why it should work now. |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 142 of 539 ) Of course, it is not as if the BJP gives a shit about what the RSS has to say, on economic issues or otherwise. |
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agni40 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 143 of 539 ) It is relevance to Gandhi that makes India a second class country. Isn't it his doing that we are having the kashmir problem or the communal riots. His ahimsa has created a mess called India. making him irrlevent will probably make India a more aggressive and progressive country. But that is not to be as we cowards hide under the veil of ahimsa and all that stuff... just like this guy Gandhi did. All the independence work was done by Azad, Bhagat Singh et al. Gandhi was the best the British could find and that is why the used him. It is like the US using the Mujahiddeen against the taliban. |
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BK 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 144 of 539 ) These days criticising known public figure and people like Ghandhi is a fashion. People claim to be intelectuals when they do this. Ahimsa and truth are sanatan satyas. Can anyone deny this? I agree that he did not understan threat from foreign culture i.e. Islam. India, subcontinent and whole world is suffering because of this culture. Because of fanatism and hatread spread by this culture we can't trust each other. If you really want to blame any one/anything blame this foreign culture and not Ghandhi. He just followed our culture and values of our culture. |
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rav666 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 145 of 539 ) Quite a debate here on the relevance of Gandhi. It has been proved time and again that violence has never achieved its objectives, and though Bagat Singh et al can be honoured as icons, their deeds were not taking the independence movement anywhere. In this background, a non-violent protest threw up a very viable alternative that could really throw a spanner in the works of the colonial aggressors. It is a formula which worked with 100% success as can be seen in the case of the Civil Rights movement in USA and the anti-apartheid struggle in South Africa. In contrast, violent / armed struggles have failed with 100% certainty (e.g. N.Ireland, Palestine, Tamil Eelam... the list is endless). Currently, there are many regions fighting for independence around the world. The only region which has chances of achieving it is Tibet - as its movement enjoys a world wide support. And obviously, it has chosen the non-violent path. Looking at it deeply, it's simple common sense. You cannot beat a champion in his game. You have to get him to play a game that you are good at, if you are to have a chance of beating him. With regard to relevance in today's India, we've seen a lot of blood-letting that hasn't taken anyone anywhere. There is an urgent need to think of non-violence as a possible strategy for conflict resolution. Of course, it requires maturity from at least one of the disputing parties - which I guess is asking for too much. |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 146 of 539 ) rav666: "though Bagat Singh et al can be honoured as icons, their deeds were not taking the independence movement anywhere. " How about Tilak, Barathiar and various other stalwarts who played a significant part in rallying the masses and priming them for Gandhi's use later on? Gandhi made significant contributions to Indian independence, but it is an extreme strecthc to claim that without him we would not have gotten independence. As someone else mentioned, the brits were in no position to hold a country of India's size after WWII, when their economy was down the toilet and they had other more important wars to fight for their survival as a nation. We would have gotten independence eventually, but using Gandhi's non-violence strategy in the present day and age, where people are willing to kill you for who you are (or are not). Leftist cretins usually fail to understand that a good strategy remains a good strategy only if it is used in the right context. |
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BK 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 147 of 539 ) We can not undermined contribution of people like Bhagat Sing and SubhashChndra Bose etc. Ghandhi bring the concept of Ahimsha and ashakar to get freedom which was new for the world in a way. This concept is based on hinduism which teaches ahimsha and satya. Today these values are more relavent when culture of Islam is spreading terrorism in the world and western contries for their greed spreading war all around. |
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Satnam 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 148 of 539 ) Sat Shri Akal, Happy Desh Drohi Jayanti to all. Sorry for the delay. The freedom movement of the Indian National Congress was essentially started by two great stalwarts. The soft side led by Gopal Krishna Gokhale, whom both Gandhi and Jinnah acknowlege as Guru. The hardliners were led by the lion Lokmanya Tilak, who felt no need to hide his Hindutwa and did not care about future vote bank nonsense.He started the Shivaji Jayanti movement in Bombay province as well as Ganesh Bhagwan festival.Tilak unfortunately died an untimely death in 1920 and this hypocrite Gandhi got power in the Congress.With Tilak around Gandhi was not much more than an amiable but eccentric clown. Gandhi, the shrewd Bania that he was, immediately saw that the British were essentially not such bad people and one could appeal to their conscience against their own interests. Gandhi was more wily than Tilak.Secondly, he saw the value of vote bank politics and stareted to woo the Muslims quite openly and shamelessly.The traitor Abul Kalam Azad rapidly rose in the Congress due to Gandhi's patronage. In 1923, four young warrirors led by the great Sikh lion,Sardar Bhagat Singh sacrificed their lives.The other three lions were Shivram Rajguru, Sukh Dev, and Batu Kesar Dutt. Their supreme self-sacrifice moved Congress to Tilak's hardline stand.It can be argued that Bhagat Singh and Pandit Chandrashekhar(Azad) were of the Savarkar Panth. Gandhi was a very weird personality, his experiments with celibacy are truly a disgusting episode. He was not above blackmail as witnessed by his numerous unto death fasts during which the rascal never died. He totally lost his marbles in the wake of the partition and five million Hindu/Sikhs lost everything, many their lives and honor of their women. If the Paki maderchots had thought there would be retaliations on our side of the border, these martyrs would have enjoyed a measure of safety in Pakiland but Mohandas, the traitor,prevented any Sikh backlash. But this bogus Mahatma could not stop the carnage in Pakiland. We, Sikhs, spit on him. He never tired of telling us to drop our Kirpans. Why, so the Pakis could rule! Fortunately, the lion Nathuram Godse put this haramkhor out of his wretched existence. One cannot imagine the havoc Gandhi would have caused in the matter of Kashmir, Hyderabad etc. |
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Satnam 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 149 of 539 ) It must be added that Sher-e-Bengal, Batu Kesar Dutt died of his fast unto death in Lahore prison, unlike Mohandas Karambhrashta who survived all his fasts! What happened to his Ahmisa and Satyagraha with regards the Paki maderchods. Why did it not work there.We lost everything during the genocide in Pakiland and were lucky to escape into India. Master Tara Singh, the Akali leader was the only person in India in 1947 who roared; "Drive all invaders out of India" Even Savarkar and Golwalkar did not show this vision and courage. |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 150 of 539 ) Regarding the point that Gandhi came up because he was convenient to the British.. I dont get your quirky logic. Anyway, more than half a century after his death, the RSS worms are now having the courage to come out of the woodwork. |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 151 of 539 ) Gandalf Khan, Sallam Alyekum, Once again you err. Nathuram Godse and Narayan Apte came from Poona not woodwork and shot this pagan in 1948. Even we faithfuls acknowledge that Nathuram and Narayan were courageous fighters, but their vision was very limited, limited to the cause of the pagans. We faithfuls would love to have such dedicated martyrs in our midst. May Allah be praised and the pagans not produce people like Godse and Apte. |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 152 of 539 ) "Fortunately, the lion Nathuram Godse put this haramkhor out of his wretched existence. " Satnam half sikh, thanks for further exposning your Sanghi colours |
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rav666 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 153 of 539 ) Karapall (#146), Firstly, someone being a 'leftist cretin' is of no significance to this discussion which is about the relevance of non-violence and Gandhian ideology. Nevertheless, I am not aware of leftists (as in communists) being proponents of non-violence considering the Stalinist regime and the Tiananmen Square episode. Secondly, Britain could have exploited its prized possession (i.e. India) to make good its World War woes. It needn't (and wouldn't) have given up its asset base on a platter. The freedom struggle provided an effective disincentive which prevented Britain from 'holding on' to India. And it was Gandhi who transformed an elitist movement (under Tilak, Bharati etc.) into mass scale, thereby ensuring its success. I do not understand your comment about using non-violence in 'present day and age' (the sentance seems incomplete) and I guess you are not for it. The Berlin wall fell non-violently, as did the collapse of the Eastern bloc, transforming the very fabric of the planet. Sweeping changes are happening on the economic, political, environmental and other fronts without a recourse to violence. Maybe it works in the 'present day and age' too, if the incentives and disincentives are projected in right measure. |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 154 of 539 ) rav666: "Britain could have exploited its prized possession (i.e. India) to make good its World War woes. It needn't (and wouldn't) have given up its asset base on a platter" I am sure that is convenient to your "Gandhi is a demigod" position. But war utterly ravaged britain's economy and britain could not spread itself very thin anymore. My view is supported by the fact that britain exited a good portion of its colonies right after world war II. How do you support your contention that Britain would have held on to India even after world war II. (Remember that India is no tiny country, which makes it harder to maintain it as a british colony) |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 155 of 539 ) rav666: "The Berlin wall fell non-violently, as did the collapse of the Eastern bloc, transforming the very fabric of the planet. " This is such a ridiculous analogy that I dont know where to begin. Firstly, the family of east germans did not kill west germans, like the pakis kill Indians with the assistance of Indian muslims. Secondly, I dont where the "fabric of the planet" has changed. Things are as bad as, or much worse than, they were 20 years ago. The economies of most of the countries has taken a downturn, whereas local populations of most developing countries has decreased. Let us also not forget that the soviet union collapsed because of the arms race. If it was not for MAD (Mutually ASsured Destruction) and the missile/nuke race that the US forced the USSR to commit itself, USSR would still have broken up a little while later because communism does not work for one very good reason: if a system pushes incompetent and corrupt people to the top of the food chain, then the system is unsustainable. We are seeing similar quirks in capitalism too nowadays. |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 156 of 539 ) There is no such thing as a "global village". This is just rhetoric to get the hopes and the support of leftist cretins who would not recognize a realist's world if it went to church with them. The strangest part is that this rhetoric is spread by the very capitalists that these leftist lepers seem to loathe and detest (yet they are too stupid to know when they are being manipulated). The "global village" rhetoric strategy is as follows: make developing countries depend completely on developed countries by binding them in "trade agreements" in the WTO, which are little more than throwbacks to the colonial era with one difference: the colonial powers no longer have to physically occupy a nation in order to enslave it. |
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BK 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 157 of 539 ) It is so sad that concept of no-violence is connected with Ghandhi and its relavence is coupled with ghandhi. Concept of non-violence is our culture and part of Hinduism. This concept was not invented by Ghandhi but was used by Ghandhi. This is one of the sanatan satya and not function of time. Situation may make you think that violence is the only way to sole all the problems but remember violence will only create more problems. Our main problem is foreighn culture of Islam which heavily advocate violence and taht is why we should drive out this culture from the subcontinent rather than changing our culture. |
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rav666 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 158 of 539 ) Karapall (#154 - 156), If India was such a white elephant that it had to be 'maintained', we wouldn't have been colonised for 200 years in the first place. That fact that we were was because our wealth and free labour was sponsoring the extravagant lifestyles of our colonisers. Such a resource would have come very handy in times of distress, if it had not been for the freedom movement. You dont need to hold a 'Gandhi is demigod' position to understand that. Coming to 'ridiculous analogies' I concede that I dont hold a monopoly over that. Your references to leftists and Paki - killers, serve to establish a free market as far as ridiculous anaologies go. Non-violence does not advocate that crime should go unpunished. Eliminate the killers, bust the terror gangs, arrest the infiltrations etc etc. by all means. I was referring to conflicting positions which can either be sorted out by violence or thru' peaceful means. Given that India and Pak currently have conflicting positions, a violent approach would be to conduct mutual missile & nuclear tests and to have a million soldiers pointing guns at each other. Peaceful approach would be taking of confidence building measures by both sides and other options left to our imagination. Given that Hindus and muslims have a conflict, a violent approach would be to go by the premise that all muslims are terrorists and vice versa. Peaceful approach (to be followed by both sides) would be to respect an individual irrespective of his/her religion, and trying to understand the other view. There can be innumerable opinions about global village, WTO etc. and even mine doesnt exactly coincide with that of the World bank or the reformists. What I wanted to stress was the ability of even the poorest of nations to get their agenda passed with regard to bio-diversity or conservation of natural resources or access to markets, without resorting to violence. The Berlin wall fell because of the maturity displayed by the world leaders of that time (esp. Gorbachev) to opt for a non-violent peaceful transformation. The 'fabric' that I was referring got a new lease of life, when it could've been torn to shreds if the cold war had been carried to its logical conclusion. |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 159 of 539 ) rav666: "If India was such a white elephant that it had to be 'maintained', we wouldn't have been colonised for 200 years in the first place. " Read my post again. I did not ever claim that the british let of India because it was a "white elephant". The british let go because they could not bear the expense of maintaining a standing army in India. Let us not forget that force and coercion were the main tactics used by the british, which needed the british army to be present in India. While civil disobedience was crucial in making them decide that they could not hold on to India for long, there is nothing to indicate that they would not have done so, but for the freedom movement. " fact that we were was because our wealth and free labour was sponsoring the extravagant lifestyles of our colonisers. " Well, not all britishers got a piece of spoils from India --- the elite segment of british society did, but most of britain was a stinking industrial mess, with lots of people living in absolute misery. "Such a resource would have come very handy in times of distress, if it had not been for the freedom movement." Keeping a hold on such resources does not come for free, and the british were not willing/able to pay that cost (which was going to escalate with Indian non cooperation) in order to keep India as part of the british raj. |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 160 of 539 ) "Concept of non-violence is our culture and part of Hinduism" This is Sangi propoganda. Non violence is part of the Hindu Culture as musch as the Buddhist, Confucious', Shinto, Christian cultures. Violence is also an part of all these cultures. Hindus are as violent as others. (if you want a generalisation). Braminical hinduism is fine so long as no one stands in its way. Simple |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 161 of 539 ) Post 158: On the dot |
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Satnam 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 162 of 539 ) RAV 666, I think you were the Paki maderchod who was advocating a free referendum in Kashmir.Why not a referendum in pre-partition Lahore, you slimy lizard? Never mind. Karapall is 100% correct in his analysis.I am sure a semi-illiterate like you does not not know this but The Government of India Act was passed in 1935, which essentially ushered in what Tilak used to call Home Rule but not Swaraj.The pillage ,loot and plunder were rapidly diminishing by this time if not stopped alltogether A most brilliant analysis on India's plunder by the Raj was presented to the British Parliament by that most worthy Parsee, Dadabhai Navroji in the 1890s.Note that the microscopic Parsee community did more for the Indian freedom movement than all you Paki haramkhors. World War II broke the back of the Empire. It also changed the mindset in Britain.Without outright plunder, what good was the empire. the US was also pushing for freedom for India, as did the UN charter for all countries under Imperial yoke.In plain terms, the circumstances simply did not permit the continuance of the Raj,politically, economically or even militarily.Britain lost close to a million war dead. How could you tell people in England that they fought against the Nazi hordes for liberty and then keep India under subjugation? |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 163 of 539 ) Point 162 "How could you tell people in England that they fought against the Nazi hordes for liberty and then keep India under subjugation? " In the your retorical fashion the asnwer could be " The same way we fought for Independence and are now subjugating the kashmiris, the people of the North East etc." |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 164 of 539 ) satnam: "How could you tell people in England that they fought against the Nazi hordes for liberty and then keep India under subjugation? " Very succinctly put. Britain and the US govts. carry out nasty wars abroad WITH the support of their people, because they invent new realities, as we can see bush doing before his quest to plunder Iraq's oil. Iraq is far less a threat than pakistan is, as far as nukes falling into the hands of jihadis, but pakistan has no oil. So suddenly, Iraq is now the fount of terrorism. WHY? Because only if the americans can grab a hold of iraqi oil, they can screw the saudis. However, the important thing to note is that when democracies mature, they actually support their govt. going and plundering the resources of other countries, unlike countries like India which have traitorous chooths like Gandalf even protesting that the Indian govt. is taking care of Indian territory. |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 165 of 539 ) Gandalf: "The same way we fought for Independence and are now subjugating the kashmiris, the people of the North East etc." Do you even understand the concept of a nation state?? you stupid dravidian turd. The Indian govt. MUST keep the sovereignity of its boundaries USING WHATEVER MEANS NECESSARY, as long as it has the support of its people. So far, other than traitorous pro-LTTE assholes like you and the paki vermin across the border, very few REAL Indians claim that Kashmir or NE must be let go from the Indian union. As this post indicates, you are a traitorous motherfucker at the very core of it all. However, you dont hesitate to display how "Secular" and "patriotic" you are every now and then. Maybe the priest anally deflowered you when you and he were lone in church, or maybe you are pakistani piece of human garbage out break India--- either way, you are a despicable, traitorous scumbag. |
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mathewtt 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 166 of 539 ) Mahatma’s vision of progress, essentially centred on sustained development of hundreds of thousand of basic village units in the country, is still relevant in a country like India. The real ‘Bharat’ lives in our rustic villages with the livelihood of 70% of the population directly or indirectly depends on agriculture. It is definitely important to develop industries taking advantage of modern technology to make use of our natural resources and cater to consumable and utility requirements. However, our developmental approach of the past decades was heavily prejudiced in favour of the industries. Agricultural sector is not considered worthy of support to create wealth and employment. While we have plenty departments, institutions and banks in the name of rural development, they could not make any worthwhile impact in improving the lot of most individual families. Almost all of these institutions and cooperative banks have became convenient avenue for corruption and loot by the greedy politicians, bureaucracy and landowning rich farmers. The marginal farmers and landless mass of workers are still struggling for the next meal. Banks and Financial institutions cannot even think of funding small farmers and landless workers. While the banks/Financial institutions are all the more happy to fund multi-crore industries based on the prospective assets and products, when it comes to advance a few thousand of rupees to an unemployed penniless youth for any sustainable self-employment based on agriculture and animal husbandry, Bankers scorn at it. Even if they consider any piecemeal funding, they ask for unrealistic guarantees from a person who is unable even to guarantee his next meal. The Banks’ combined bad debts, sweet termed as Non Performing Assets, of over 100,000 crores is a criminal testimony to the prevalent policies in financial sector. This abject failure of Financial institutions and Banks in fuelling the development of rural economy is well complemented with the total inefficiency of public sector productive and utility organisations, and the corruption and callousness of bureaucracy. While comparatively small numbers of people, including the 3% organised workforce, have benefited by this flawed development approach, the living standards of the majority rural population is still abysmal. And the army of unemployed swells year after year. Agriculture and animal husbandry should be given increased importance in our development policies. Financial Institutions and Banks should come out with innovative plans to fund individual INTEGRATED AGRI-FARM UNITS consisting animal husbandry and food crop cultivation. Up to rupees 15 (fifteen) lacs should be advanced, in stages, to unemployed persons and landless rural workers to buy land and start household agricultural and animal husbandry schemes. They should be allowed a minimum two years grace period before start of repayment, this gestation period will enable the person to establish the farming unit, stabilize production and generate sufficient income for regular EMI payment. Successful schemes should be considered for certain incentives and margin money support by the Government. Banking and bureaucratic machinery should come out of the slumber and involve sincerely and fully in this process. Once the basic means of production are made available, the individual will carry on performing efficiently as it is his livelihood. As the rural sector sustains on its own, it will start generating surplus income fuelling demands for wide range of consumable and industrial products. Chain growth of all sectors of economy is then natural. It is still worth trying, not only in Gandhi era, in the present cyber age too. Without food no one survives whether in Gandhi era or cyber age, or any ages to come. Investment in sustainable agriculture is always productive and essential. |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 167 of 539 ) "Do you even understand the concept of a nation state" Could you explain and enlighten. This would be interesting! mathewtt.. great post filled with sense.. therefore not to be thrown at Sangi Scum like Karapall. And because I have aproblem with your Sangi world view Karapall I am either a Muslim or a Christian.. Hmmm.. could it be that I am a Hindu? |
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BK 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 168 of 539 ) Gandalf is always trying to bring muslims and christians at par while talking about India's problems. Christians are not problems in India like Muslims. Same is true for Parsis, jews etc. Islam is not a problem in India only, its problem every where in the world. |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 169 of 539 ) Gandalf: "Could you explain and enlighten. This would be interesting!" I am not here to fill in the gaps in your high school education, numbnuts. However, to clarify on my comment, your claim that India is committing "state terrorism" on the people of kashmir and the NE, are the words of a red-blooded traitor to the nation state of India. One of the primary responsibilities of a citizen is to honor the sovereign boundaries of the state, and sacrifice one's life, if necessary, to protect these sovereign boundaries. You seem to be claiming that anyone who fights for maintaining the existing sovereign boundaries of the state is a nationalist/fascist "subjugating the citizens of kashmir". Need I say little more than "this is exactly what Pervez Musharraf keeps repeating every week". You must be thrilled to be on the same side as Pervez bhai, right? my brother in islam. |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 170 of 539 ) Gandalf: "Could you explain and enlighten. This would be interesting!" I am not here to fill in the gaps in your high school education, numbnuts. However, to clarify on my comment, your claim that India is committing "state terrorism" on the people of kashmir and the NE, are the words of a red-blooded traitor to the nation state of India. One of the primary responsibilities of a citizen is to honor the sovereign boundaries of the state, and sacrifice one's life, if necessary, to protect these sovereign boundaries. You seem to be claiming that anyone who fights for maintaining the existing sovereign boundaries of the state is a nationalist/fascist "subjugating the citizens of kashmir". Need I say little more than "this is exactly what Pervez Musharraf keeps repeating every week". You must be thrilled to be on the same side as Pervez bhai, right? my brother in islam. |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 171 of 539 ) BK: Point taken karapall: "One of the primary responsibilities of a citizen is to honor the sovereign boundaries of the state, and sacrifice one's life, if necessary, to protect these sovereign boundaries." So what is the sovereign boundries. When were they defined. Is say the Basqe region Sovereign Spain?.. of Falklands Sovereign UK? or Why in your mind is Andamans, sovereign India? Do answer to the Andamans at least |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 172 of 539 ) gandalf: "So what is the sovereign boundries. When were they defined." That is irrelevant. If you want to feed off the facilities provided to you by India and its state and society, you better well owe allegiance to it. If you dont, you are called a red-blooded traitor. Period. " Is say the Basqe region Sovereign Spain?.. of Falklands Sovereign UK? or Why in your mind is Andamans, sovereign India?" Yes, to all three. |
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Satnam 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 173 of 539 ) To All, Mohandas Karambhrashta Gandhi is as relevant today as he was in 1920. The Indian National Congress,nurtured by great leaders like Dadabhai Navroji, Gopal Krishna Gokhale, Bal Gangadhar Tilak, Lala Lajpatrai,Bipin Chandra Pal, was turned into the Indian Anti-National Congress by Mohandas. The first move was the beginning of the gutless and shameless wooing of the minorities when Gandhi endorsed the Jehad against the British Raj launched by the Muslims who had nothing to do with any Indian problem or frredom movement but WERE CONCERNED AND INFLAMED BY THE DESTRUCTION BY THE BRITISH OF THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE OF TURKEY!This ended quickly enough and the Muslims then had little to do with India's freedom movement. Most were with the Muslim League which believed and practised arse kissing of the British Masters as would be expected.Talking about extra-territorial loyalty!Those that do not protest killings in Kashmir are concerned about Gerry Falwell's remarks. Wait and see these Congressi bastards embrace and kiss terrorists in J & K and in the North East! |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 174 of 539 ) Gandalf, my brother in islam. You have to understand that if we start talking about who was the "original" occupiers of the land with an eye on redrawing boundaries, that will be the end of the world. The only, I mean ONLY, way forward is to accept the boundaries as they are and work with them. It is clearly proven by history that people who have unity and team work can created lots of wealth even with very little land. Countries with lot of natural wealth sucha s those in africa are little more than shitpots, not because they dont have natural wealth, (they have it in spades), but because they do not understand the concept of team work, where you put personal and ideological differences aside when it comes to a crunch. Unfortunately, the socialist legacy of India does not make me too optimistic on this front. The parasites of society who are mostly govt. employees who dont do a day's worth of honest work will work very hard to destroy any positive activity that decreases their job security, with a lot of help from the "Secular" groups and the communists. |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 175 of 539 ) Thanks Krappy for your answers: OK, so you feel that national boundaries must be status quo. Good, then you disagree with the concept of Ukrain, Lithuania, Kazakstan etc. You would also not support Tibet independence, Aceh, and Quebec. But hey, the Quebec question is handled by referendums not by brow beating(stupid canadians:-)) The second point on team work. Good point, then I dont see why I should be burdened by a huge ungovernable lodestone. I would prefer a loose federation by which each state or unit can work as a team and not be dragged down by illeterate fanatical subsocieties like say the Gujus/Rajputs |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 176 of 539 ) "was turned into the Indian Anti-National Congress by Mohandas" .. Of course senior Congress leaders like All bullshit Vajpayee were the only people of worth until they went on to form parties like the Buttfucked Jonnies Puke, which cant win 2 states on its own. |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 177 of 539 ) Gandalf: "Good, then you disagree with the concept of Ukrain, Lithuania, Kazakstan etc. " No. These countries were formed peacefully with the breakup of the soviet union. Their uniting factor of communism no longer existed. "You would also not support Tibet independence, Aceh, and Quebec." No, I do not have any views on these so-called freedom struggles, unless they directly affect India's interests. In other words, these so-called "independence movements" are not India's business, and when such movements are related to interests, I support whichever position helps Indian interests. In the case of tibet, it is a stick we can beat china with, and cause trouble to the chinese, so I support independence of tibet even though I dont really give a shit about tibetans. |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 178 of 539 ) Gandalf: "But hey, the Quebec question is handled by referendums not by brow beating" It is not that simple. India cannot allow a referendum to appease secessionist movements, because that will basically destroy the concept of India. The people who lead these movements have plenty of space to acheive the goals of improving quality of life by non violent methods. Besides, most of these secessionist movements are lead by wannabe-despots whose only aim is to acquire power and control of "their people", which is just another way of saying that their intent is to snatch land away from the Indian state for their own benefit. Clearly, this is unacceptable from India's view. IF their real agenda was to improve the lot of their people, they would be doing so by rallying the people around their point of view. It is usually a lot easier to acquire weapons and create a fear psychosis. When that happens, you know that these "freedom fighters" have no interest in the future of their people. I have a problem supporting any movement of this sort. |
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Satnam 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 179 of 539 ) Karapallji, I don't think this imbecile would ever understand that the French speaking Canadians did not expect to enter Paradise by destroying the English speaking Canadians. There never was the threat of Jehad. |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 180 of 539 ) satnamji, Yes, there are so many holes in the arguments put up by pseudo-secularists that ripping them apart is easy. But good-natured people like jiggs probably fall for the lies of these aholes. I am just trying to filter out the lies spouted by the pseudo-secularists. I am not sure if you were around these message boards after Godhra, but the amount of anti-hindu shit on the message board was just phenomenal. Most of these pseudo-secular shits would threaten bodily harm on me because I deliberately called the prophet a donkey molestor. It is very important to realize that without the internet, such "non secular" discussions such as those we have now, would result in violence by the muslims. For example, I call the prophet a donkey molestor. This will result in muslim group putting a fatwa on my head, AND the police throwing me in prison because *I* created communal disharmony, ignoring the fact that the only party that is threatening violence in this case are the muslim groups, including the non jihadi muslim groups. |
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Satnam 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 181 of 539 ) Karapallji, Sat Shri Akal, Well spoken , brother.Well spoken! What illiterates do not understand is that secularism's essence is destroyed by appeasing and encouraging fanaticism. People today fail to understand the distinction beteewn terrorism which is highly dangerous and destructive and counter-terrorism which is a prerequisite for the survival of civilized society |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 182 of 539 ) Back scratching over?.. OK, So as Ram Nam FlotSam Satnam says, if there was threat of violence (jihad) and a sectionof this country feels that the concept of Hindia does not apply (say the Tamils) and ask for a referendum, would you agree?.. It would be the same as Quebec. |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 183 of 539 ) Gandalf: "if there was threat of violence (jihad) and a sectionof this country feels that the concept of Hindia does not apply " If you dont like a political party, you cheerlead the party that does have the same viewpoint and work on throwing out the govt. you disagree with. In short, you are obliged to fight this out by voting the party you dont like. Starting a jihad is unacceptable. People harboring such thoughts need a bullet in their head from the Indian army to calm their thoughts down. I suggest that any asshole harboring thought of secessionism should first go look at what can happen to them at www.armyinkashmir.org The Indian govt. will kill you fuks if you threaten the territorial integrity of the country. |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 184 of 539 ) Note that any state/country on this planet will use all the force it can muster to crush people who are trying to destroy its territorial integrity. So the govt. of India would be completely justified in putting a bullet in the head of any jihadi who wants to destroy India. THIS IS ONE OF THE MAIN AGENDUM OF A MODERN STATE: MAINTAIN TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY AT ALL COSTS. |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 185 of 539 ) Gandalf: "Back scratching over?.. " I guess you are stupider than I previously thought: satnam's point on appeasing fanatics is A UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTED FACT in all civilized societies. Why do you think that western govts. NEVER negotiate with kidnappers/terrorists?? Because appeasing them once will teach them a lesson that their strategy is working. All of this is basic behavioral psychology, which stupid shits like you should read up on and apply what you learn to what you see in Indian society today. |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 186 of 539 ) http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/oct/19brahma.htm Bang on article on why India is considered a worthless country in comparison to China. Indians are always a moralising bunch of morons who would not know their own self interests if it were spelt out to them; Gandalf and anwarsad and most of the pseudo-secular crowd are perfect examples of this kind of behavior. |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 187 of 539 ) "The Indian govt. will kill you fuks if you threaten the territorial integrity of the country" Correction.. the Indian govt will kill anyone who opposes Hindutva so I am a dead man already and have nothing to loose. And China is overtaking us because of Secularism.. Great HAHAHA, Maybe thats why the only Hindu state (Nepal) is closer to China. Duffer.. do you ever think? |
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Satnam 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 188 of 539 ) Gandu Nitwit, Let China escape from the bondages of Communism and it will rush back to Buddhism,Taoism or Confucianism the same way as Russians rushed to orthodoxy. You are a zombie, you cannot be killed again. |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 189 of 539 ) Good one Satnam - the zombie part.. at least for someone of your intellect:-) Duffer.. Possibly China would turn to any ism other than communism.. but it would not afect them. But it would be a great opportunity for us, Imagine billions of Chinese who have CONVERTED (yuch.. what a disgusting word) to Buddism a religion that originated in INDIA an foreign land. They are all going to be our fift column and we can then Invade China.. YAAAAAAA!! HUBBA HUBBA, DISSHUM dASHUM!!!!!! |
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Satnam 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 190 of 539 ) Gandu shitwit, I never thought that I would laugh at the humor in one of your posts, but Parmatma made me honest! The issue was secularism and you were attributing China's progress to secularism! Buddhism has no jehadi elements and does not advocate violence AT ALL, quite the contrary! Now, you missed the spelling of fifth! |
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Satnam 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 191 of 539 ) Gandalf, Can a Zombie take Ramnaam! |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 192 of 539 ) I dont know dear Ho Hum but it does help when I shit |
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Satnam 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 193 of 539 ) Gandalf, My dear friend are you constipated. try Isab Gul. And vegetarianism helps, more fiber the better. And, wow, beefeating DOES NOT HELP. Try Dr, Weill's remedies! |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 194 of 539 ) Gandalf: "Correction.. the Indian govt will kill anyone who opposes Hindutva so I am a dead man already and have nothing to loose." Cut the horseshit, you fool. Anyone who reads the news will know that you are indulging in anti-BJP/anti-hindu hyperbole in the above statement. If you and pakis both make similar statements all the time, you need to wonder whether you have been denied the chance to be a paki by the evil, vicious "hindoo" government in the center. Find a paki and weep on his shoulder, and you will find that you have much in common with them. I spit on you, you despicable, contemptible, anti-national, pseudo-secular piece of shit. |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 195 of 539 ) Karapallji, Salaam Alyekum, Re your above post what you mean is this bastard belongs to the gutter class. That is exactly what these vermin are, and imagine yesterday I was feeling a little sorry for this wretch. The Prithviraj syndrome is an organic part of our very existence and IT HAS HURT, and WILL CONTINUE TO HURT. |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 196 of 539 ) "I spit on you, you despicable, contemptible, anti-national, pseudo-secular piece of shit." HOO HAA, Thank God I just fit an ACME spito-protector on my screen. But Krappy, its a fact. If a minority common man person publicly states his disgust with the Hindutva brigade or its causes s/he is putting his/her life at risk. It is the truth. That is the Truth of this country. My dad gave away his US citizenship, came back to India to ensure we were not paperback indians. Today he is being targeted by RSS shnicks because he is being fair to all and loves the country first. The good thing is he has muscle power to protect himself. The bad thing is that is what our country degenerates too. My spit is too precious for fools like you but your collosal testosterone led stupidity is sad. |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 197 of 539 ) Satnam: Yesterday I had a juicy rare steak for dinner.. Ohh was it a joy. Dont worry I also have my greens and shit quite well, but chanting Ram Naam at point of downloading is indeed blissful. Vegetarianism may or may not help but is it worth it.. Is it worth to become like the millions of rabid, ugly, scheming, hypocritical vegitarians around?. Not in my mind.. I guess the issues you know that you are stuck in a tasteless rut feeding like looing cattle. Whereas the restof the world does not ahve any hang-up and frankly are better off in terms of morals, brains, and standard of living than you . That makes you very bitter.. Munch over a celery while I dig into my veal sandwhich |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 198 of 539 ) Gandalf Khanji, Salaam Alyekum, You might need the Ramnam when you develop colo-rectal cancer. Do not abuse it.It is far more powerful than Jesus, Mary or whatever! Why did your dad come back? Did he commit any criminal acts in the US. Was he part of a Jehadi cell?Why have the RSS men targeted him,what muscle power can you muster against such opponents. You guys have been blaming the RSS for the Gujrat retribution, if the 20%+plus faithfuls could not fight the RSS onslaught how does your dad survive.Does he take Ravannam. What does your dad do for a living, is he a latrine cleaner too? By the way why don't you sing the pleasures of eating pork, are you worried about the feelings of your Jehadi brothers. And imagine yesterday I was feeling sorry for vermin like you! Go eat lizards, they will add to your sliminess! |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 199 of 539 ) Oh, by the way I love my bacon too :-) its only that my jehadi bothers (sic) dont think that its a God.. though fried manglorean chilly pork saudages are very close to heaven. Sweet satnam, remember that I am in the South where we are not to concerned with your provincial village rowdy Shivaji and his Goggled Fool Fuckeray. Please note that I keep my posts to you simple so you can understand. Try not to answer to post directed at others or are you feeling left out?. So half breed, did you carry your Kirpan to office today or maybe to your taxi? Your days in the US as a member of a peaceful religion are numbered. Scratch your asshole with your sword fool. And how do you manage your half breed turban? I am sure true Sikhs dont accept you as one of them thats why the bitterness. have a nice day loser :-) |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 200 of 539 ) Gandalf Khanji, Sallam Alyekum, To whom are you addressing or have you lost all your remaining marbles too. |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 201 of 539 ) Oh .. my apologies.. You guys all sound the same..anyway the feeling remain the same :-) |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 202 of 539 ) Gandalfkhanji, Salaam Alyekum, What is your nominal faith. Are you a Hindu, a Proxy Muslim or a Makapav(one who bakes bread) as catholics are known in Bombay. I hope you are a buddhist. I will then trat you with a little respect. By the way, it is too much to expect for you to know that the Maharaja of Mysore was a creation of the Peshva as a buffer against Tipu Sultan the maderchot and Jehadi fuck. |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 203 of 539 ) Seriously its a tough question .. on two counts 1. What is a nominal whatever? either you are a thief or not a thief 2. I am not in the real sense as (as is known where I come from) Rat worshiper Hindu, or a Dirty Tuluk, or a Makapav Christian as you call it. Hmmm. You cant really deal with a person unless he fits into a religious slot. You are a typical example of a hypocritical low self-esteem dick who only kick is a feeling of false superiority. You and your ilks fate is to either live in a poverty/hate ridden country you call home or slave for a Christian/Muslim/Buddhist country and fart on message boards. |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 204 of 539 ) Gandalf Khanji, The US is a secular country.And I rather like India,any problems! |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 205 of 539 ) "The US is a secular country.And I rather like India,any problems" Fortunately for you.. yes US is a truly secular country. And no problems, so long as you remain there. Nice hypocricy though, enjoy the fruits of a secular nation while conniving to make india truly communal.. The mark of your ilk! |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 206 of 539 ) Gandalfji, Bad news! Now they will permit dual Nationalities. We will be back to preach vegetarianism. Do you know that nearly 20% Americans are vegetarians. May Satnamji be praised! |
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BK 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 207 of 539 ) Islam and Christianity are dead against Hinduism becaue its biggest hurdle in converting big number of people. More over Hinduism is proven , dose not believe in conversion, fanatism. Muslim and Christians try to find out flaws in Hindu society to prove Hinduism bad at the same time they overlook their own problem. Islam and Christianity will never succed in converting all hindus whatever they do. Miracles, money , hatred, name calling are the tactics used by both which are fundamently wrong. |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 208 of 539 ) Gandalf: "If a minority common man person publicly states his disgust with the Hindutva brigade or its causes s/he is putting his/her life at risk. It is the truth. " I would be on your side if that were true. However, what people like you do is not just "state your disgust", you LIE about the hindus with the intent of slandering them and their faith. I dont think you would take such attitudes towards christianity lightly any more than the hindus are going to take your anti-hindu bigotry lightly. |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 209 of 539 ) Gandalf: "Fortunately for you.. yes US is a truly secular country. " Sure, the US is a truly secular country where a non christian has never been elected to senate or the presidency. Yes, US is truly secular while India is a hindu fascist country that has a muslim president. |
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BK 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 210 of 539 ) "Fortunately for you.. yes US is a truly secular country. " Yes that is why: - During election campaign Billy Graham came publicaly with Bush Jr. - Falwell can give ststement against Mohammed - There are two types of public schools Christian and general public. No need to ask Christian schools get better fund and facalities. - Afetr 9/11 thousand of muslims were detained and were not allowed to contact their relatives or advocate without any charges were kept in jail for few months - During travel you get randon seacr and if you are asian that random search is for sure - After 9/11 Shik was shot dead because he had beard like Osama. - Crusade word comes from where? - You can see promotion of Chritianity by people performing miracles and those videos are sold to make money. - America has nothing to do with religion its means business and commerece. Anything which will promote business is acceptable. Since America's economy is war based economy they need one enemy all the time. Communism was one of the enemy and now Islam is the one. Once that enemy is finsihed it will be turn of China or India But we need not worry about it because it will take another half to one century to reach there. |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 211 of 539 ) Sure, the US is a truly secular country where a non christian has never been elected to senate or the presidency. Are you really serious?.. We have a Hndu senetor from Minnesota who is in the senate today and a Hindu. All the anti Muslim acts you point out are comparable to the second class citizenship of Muslims in India?. Please read todays TOI article my Farah naqvi. |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 212 of 539 ) "I dont think you would take such attitudes towards christianity lightly" Karapall: from being a Muslim to a Communist and now a Christian has been a long spiritual journey. If you maliciously want to put down a religion please do so but be fair about it. I couldn't (specifically)care less if you maligned Christians in India. But I feel bad because of the principle of the whole thing. I guess the Muslims are well and trully snookered now. The Secularist are timid and directionless.. Just as your cohort explained how US needed an enemy, the Sanghis need an enemy. The soft target now are the Christians. As a Kerala Christian, you know the only place in Indian where Christian live without ephithets like drunkards, converts, easy lays etc is in Kerala. I feel as I have stated before Christianity is a spent force. IT has reached is peak and is now on the decline. Which is why I never bother with it. I respect the religion and its people who have added to this country far more than their numbers warrant, I believe its up to them to handle the Sanghi contemt approach. |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 213 of 539 ) And why are you bent on including me as your brother?.. If there is anyting I nominally admire its socialism. Keep that in mind. But Socialism/marxism is going through a turmoil and I haope it evolves into a stronger ideology.. its only 60 years old you see.. and there is time! |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 214 of 539 ) It is only 60 years old and already moribund!Wow!! |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 215 of 539 ) But Socialism/marxism is going through a turmoil and I haope it evolves into a stronger ideology.. its only 60 years old you see.. and there is time! There you have a nut pushing for this cult which is extinct in all places except china. Well, everybody has a right to dream, even a fool ! |
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BK 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 216 of 539 ) In Kerala its common to have one person's name christian, father's name muslim and grandfather Hindu. Conversion is abusiness with the help of gulf money for Islam and missionary money from the west. Even today in missionary (convent) school pupils must study bible since Hindus are real secular and confident about their own culture study but donot get converted. See one marketing example of sale of Christianity: In adivasi village students of the school taken in a bus ride. Bus got stuck in the middle of no where. Now kids are told bus is not getting started lets pary to god and see bus starts: 1) Everyone was asked to say Jay Shree Ram. Evryone say so but bus dose not start 2) Evryone was asked to say Allah Ho Akabar. Same result 3) Now every one was asked to say Jesus, oh holy soul please help us to start our bus. Miracle happens and bus starts. |
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BK 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 217 of 539 ) Some people think taht Hinduism is root cause of India's problem. Here is my quiz: 1) Which continent is most poor, people die of hunger and education level is very low. Despite having all natural resources this continent is most backwod in the world? 2) In connection of above question which religion(s) followed in the above continent. |
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BK 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 218 of 539 ) Vivekanand said: Do not run after pieces of galass when dimendos are aviable to you. When I think abpout people getting converted from Hinduism to other religion I think exactly the same. I feel sorry about people who get convrted because througout their life, guilt make them spend their time and enrgy to justfy their act of conversion and they loose real target of upliftment of their own soul. Which can be achived with Knoweledge, Karama and devotion as stated in Geeta. |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 219 of 539 ) Gandalf: "My spit is too precious for fools like you" I understand. All that afghan marijuana that you smoke must make your mouth dry. |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 220 of 539 ) Gandalf: "We have a Hndu senetor from Minnesota who is in the senate today and a Hindu." Okay, I will wait for you to divulge the name of this phantom senator. There is possibly a couple of token minorities in the congress (out of a total of 500 in both houses), but there is no "Indian" senator in the US. Once again you have proven yourself to be an ignorant fool and a liar. |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 221 of 539 ) Gandalf: "All the anti Muslim acts you point out are comparable to the second class citizenship of Muslims in India?." You still dont get it, do you? you stupid turd. Muslims MUST be the target of all investigations because all of the terror we face has its roots in islam. Of course, this must never be stated in public but must be state policy, which is exactly what is happening in the US. On the other hand, in India, the kaangress party led by the italian whore is playing the muslim vote bank by supporting jihadi sentiments and claiming that security measures taken to protect Indians from islamic jihadi terrorism (acts such as POTA) is "anti-islamic". Sure enough, every "true" muslims (muslims not of the ilk of our esteemed president) also contends that POTA is anti-muslim and that SIMI is just a body of muslim students. Yeah, right. |
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BK 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 222 of 539 ) Some more knowledge for the ignorant and brain washed people: In America women had no voting right till 1950s. Black were not able to go to the same school as white. Complete Red Indian race is almost wiped out from the continent. |
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BK 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 223 of 539 ) Black were not able to go to the same school as white. - untill 1960s in many parts |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 224 of 539 ) During the 1930s, W.E.B DuBois, a black intellectual started printing his own newsletter that details the public mob lynchings of 2000 innocent blacks at the hands of whites. Nowadays, this attitude of racism still exists but has been "scientifcally" legitimized in public rhetoric by whites in the US under the euphemism of "racial profiling", which is nothing more than over institutionalized racism. |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 225 of 539 ) Latin America is the poorest continent in the world. Also, the literacy levels there are the lowest in the world. And the only religion existing there (not dominant! the only religion) is christianity. Ofcourse, catholics and protestants frequently clash with each other on account of conversions within christianity !!!! Many people must be aware (of course, Gandalf is not inculded in 'people') that the Vatican Pope called the protestants 'rapacious wolves' trying to target the catholics !!!!!! And to think that these bastards like gandalf take a high moral ground and preach us hindus of caste, equality, what not. |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 226 of 539 ) Says gandalf in one of his messages: "...from being a Muslim to a Communist and now a Christian has been a long spiritual journey." This is a roar! Muslim to communist to christian is a long 'spiritual' journey ????? While I personally got nothing against christians and muslims who live their life normally (but then the evil missionaries funded by the vatican and of course jihadis are worthy of loathe) What the fuck has communism got to do with spirituality? And the fact that this bastard has only utter contempt for the land that shelters him is evident from the attempts he makes to deride hinduism and in even 'sports' forums !!!!!!!! Some shameless turds never give up. |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 227 of 539 ) Vikram, Do read posts completely before barking. BK. You are right Africa is in a sad state. But then the corollary to your question is which is the richest parts of the world and what religion do they follow. Your stories on Adivasi conversion are equal to the stories of Rajneeshes free sex conversions.. equally despicable, but your stories sound 'ploitical meeting garbage" like.. Laughable. |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 228 of 539 ) 'Latin America is the poorest continent in the world. Also, the literacy levels there are the lowest in the world." Yeah Vikramji, if not for Buddist Asia, Asia woudl have been. The poorest and least literate region in the world is the SAARC region Boozo U havent answered my question, Amrutanjan, Chavanaprash, Call centers and what?????? |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 229 of 539 ) Karappal Post 220: 'Okay, I will wait for you to divulge the name of this phantom senator. There is possibly a couple of token minorities in the congress (out of a total of 500 in both houses), but there is no "Indian" senator in the US. Once again you have proven yourself to be an ignorant fool and a liar." Here it is dumb fuck: NEW YORK : SatVD Chaudhary, the first Asian-Indian state senator in the United States, was named among the top 50 Indians in the world by NRIworld, a magazine for global Indians, in its January 2002 issue, a press release said. Chaudhary, member of the Minnesota Senate, is joined on the list by eminent personalities like golfer Vijay Singh, author and spiritual expert Deepak Chopra, legendry sitar player Ravi Shankar, Oscar-nominated filmmaker Manoj Night Shyamalan and Bobby Jindal, assistant secretary in the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. The magazine took note of Chaudhary’s visit to Ground Zero in New York after the Sept. 11 terror attack, where he addressed a rally to promote unity and tolerance in a turbulent time. Archie D’Cruz, editor-in-chief of the magazine, said Chaudhary was selected not only for being the first senator of Indian descent, but also for being a compelling voice of reason in the wake of the Sept. 11 attacks. At a time when feelings against nonwhite minorities was running high among a section of Americans, Chaudhary had voiced loudly his conviction that the nation risked descending into chaos if it succumbed to divisiveness, D’Cruz added. |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 230 of 539 ) http://www.newsindia-times.com/2002/05/17/usa-firs t.html Karapall: you are a sorry fool. Do you need anymore proof.. No let me see how this epitome of Sanghi Culture will take this :-) |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 231 of 539 ) Gandalf: "Your stories on Adivasi conversion are equal to the stories of Rajneeshes free sex conversions.. equally despicable" I see, so christians would never resort to duplicity to convert people. Is that what you are saying?? On the other hand, hindus who point this out are lying?? the term despicable applies very well to a traitorous, bigoted motherfucker like you. |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 232 of 539 ) Gandalf: "The poorest and least literate region in the world is the SAARC region Boozo" That is akin to saying that the poorest and least literate hemisphere is the western hemisphere and the least literate planet is the planet earth. It describes nothing, you stupid, brainless piece of bigoted, dravidian shit. |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 233 of 539 ) Gandalf: "U havent answered my question, Amrutanjan, Chavanaprash, Call centers and what??????" It has already been pointed out that you are an ignorant piece of shit who cannot get his history straight to save his life. Firstly, Various cultures had inventions and discoveries to their credit long before christianity was around. Seismographs and gunpowder were invented by the chinese (who were NOT buddhists at that time). Various mathematical discoveries were made by the greeks and Indians long before jesus fucked mary madgalene. Secondly, when the first scientists started making their inventions, the religious right-wing in europe hated these scientists and even burnt a few of them for discovering phenomena that contradicted the bible. It was ONLY WHEN the europeans realized the economic benefits of adopting science, did these christian assholes rationalize their religion to fit in with science.....just like the "creation scientists" do nowadays when they bullshit about evolution and creation being equally plausible. The simple fact is the trilobytes have been carbon dated to be a few million years old. Suddenly, the christian theology of go creating seven days gets reinterpreted with the explanation that when they wrote the bible, one day was "one day for god", which of course translates to a million years for us mortals. Stupid turds like you somehow think that all this is more acceptable than hindu mythology or some tribal religions. It is all the same shit. |
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BK 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 234 of 539 ) "You are right Africa is in a sad state. But then the corollary to your question is which is the richest parts of the world and what religion do they follow." Exactly that was my point since many pople balme hindutva for bad aspects (e.g. poverty )of the state of India and its people which is not correct. Economical prosperity is very cyclic in nature and its focal points shift from one place to another. "Your stories on Adivasi conversion are equal to the stories of Rajneeshes free sex conversions.. equally despicable, but your stories sound 'ploitical meeting garbage" like.. Laughable." Its probably laugable for people who are engaged in the business of conversion , I use word business because pastors are paid servent. Its so sad people are trapped to Islam and christianity not on the merits as religion but on demerits of other culture, hatred , miracles , money , violence etc. |
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BK 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 235 of 539 ) Christianity is business today and frenchies are avilable, small list of frenchies: 1) Very prospective: Chatolic brand 2) Less royalty, cheap: Protestant 3) Eciting : Mormans list can go on . Main business is to attract more customer by showing magic shows , find out bad thing about others and advertise them througout the world Magic show performers are avilable at resonable rates but video cassets must be purchased and sold. Western governmnet will help establish infrastructure in terms of Missionaries in remote ares where people are ignorant, poor or faces some kind of problems. If they are not facing any problems they will be made believe that they have many problems. This is very lucrative business and direct connections with God is guranteed. Any buyer? |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 236 of 539 ) Karappal Post 220: 'Okay, I will wait for you to divulge the name of this phantom senator. There is possibly a couple of token minorities in the congress (out of a total of 500 in both houses), but there is no "Indian" senator in the US. Once again you have proven yourself to be an ignorant fool and a liar." Well Krappy here it is dumb fuck: NEW YORK : Satveer Chaudhary, the first Asian-Indian state senator in the United States, was named among the top 50 Indians in the world by NRIworld, a magazine for global Indians, in its January 2002 issue, a press release said. Chaudhary, member of the Minnesota Senate, is joined on the list by eminent personalities like golfer Vijay Singh, author and spiritual expert Deepak Chopra, legendry sitar player Ravi Shankar, Oscar-nominated filmmaker Manoj Night Shyamalan and Bobby Jindal, assistant secretary in the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. The magazine took note of Chaudhary’s visit to Ground Zero in New York after the Sept. 11 terror attack, where he addressed a rally to promote unity and tolerance in a turbulent time. Archie D’Cruz, editor-in-chief of the magazine, said Chaudhary was selected not only for being the first senator of Indian descent, but also for being a compelling voice of reason in the wake of the Sept. 11 attacks. At a time when feelings against nonwhite minorities was running high among a section of Americans, Chaudhary had voiced loudly his conviction that the nation risked descending into chaos if it succumbed to divisiveness, D’Cruz added |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 237 of 539 ) http://www.newsindia-times.com/2002/05/17/usa-firs t.html Karapall: you are a sorry fool. Do you need anymore proof.. No let me see how this epitome of Sanghi Culture will take this :-) |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 238 of 539 ) BK: "Christianity is business today and frenchies are avilable, small list of frenchies: 1) Very prospective: Chatolic brand 2) Less royalty, cheap: Protestant 3) Eciting : Mormans" OK, It goes without saying that all religions are business today 1) Very prospective -sic! (Sai Baba, Sri Sri) 2) High end Govt and Business (Chandrswami) 3) Base drugs and corpse screwing (Agora Swamis) 4) Loot/Rape/Murder (Sanghi Hinduism) 5) Garish loud social activities 6) North Indian Hinduism.. Among Muslims 1) Testosterone lead rape and murder (wahabis) etc etc. |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 239 of 539 ) The point is that majority of Hindus, Muslims, Christians are quite peaceful, humane and want the best for their families and countries. Eg. A Hindu is US is as patriotic to US, as a Hindu is Indian. Why do you gainby flogging a dead horse regarding a few bad eggs in each religion?? |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 240 of 539 ) Gandalf reminds me- "U havent answered my question, Amrutanjan, Chavanaprash, Call centers and what??????" Fucking bastard, would you care to highlight your mouse on something that reads 'previous' (it is just at the bottom of this screen, above the message box). Keep pressing it bastard and search for my reply. While I reply to all, even top class fools like you, I normally don't repeat anything to fools. |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 241 of 539 ) "Latin America is the poorest continent in the world. Also, the literacy levels there are the lowest in the world." To this observation of mine, Gandalf has graciously replied as follows: "Yeah Vikramji, if not for Buddist Asia, Asia woudl have been. The poorest and least literate region in the world is the SAARC region Boozo" Is this turd suggesting that all christian countries, beginning with Latin American continent, convert to buddhism???? |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 242 of 539 ) Vikram, dont try looking for suggestions. You could not find your nose if you wanted to.. Just read and imbibe.. and reply your standard crap |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 243 of 539 ) He is a "state senator", you imbecile. That means he is a member of the STATE SENATE, Not the SENATE in Washington DC. Jeez, each time I think your IQ cannot get any lower, you surprise me. |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 244 of 539 ) Gandalf: "Why do you gainby flogging a dead horse regarding a few bad eggs in each religion??" You should answer this question honestly to yourself, you dishonest puke. You are still flogging the dead horses belonging to the grandfathers of the north Indians, brahmins and other assorted groups that you harbor a lot of evil intentions and hate. |
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hawkeyej 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 245 of 539 ) I admit i read only four messages, but why is there absolutely no mention of Gandhi here .... talk about irrelevance |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 246 of 539 ) hawkeye, Problem is due to misguided 'hate generating objects' like gandalf who even talk about and imaginary caste system in a sports forum !!! Such people instigate irrelevant discussions in all forums. And surely, 'every action has an equal and opposite reaction' (told by newton, never told by modi !!) Such fools can't get over their morbin imaginations (and delusions) about their ancestors, their country, their slave masters...... |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 247 of 539 ) hawkeyej: " admit i read only four messages, but why is there absolutely no mention of Gandhi here .... talk about irrelevance" The only way to celebrate gandhi's irrelevance to Indian society is to ignore that asshole. This so-called "Father of the nation" was vainglorious SOB whose idea of a modern India was to have everyone living at the same abject level of property. Pity that the motherfucker Gandhi was not finished off earlier; India could have kept the jihadis under a leash. Instead, the marxist/socialist shitheads hijacked his image to spread their extremely dangerous, anti-national agenda in the five decades after indpendence. |
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hhhggg 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 248 of 539 ) Nathuram Godse's contribution to India is much much higher than that of mother fucker Gandhi. While Gandhi partitioned India, Godse prevented further partition of India. Lots of idiots still think Gandhi got India's freedom. The reality is after 2nd World War, England was bankrupt, and it was forced to free all its colonies. |
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mensa 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 249 of 539 ) "Nathuram Godse's contribution to India is much much higher than that of mother fucker Gandhi." ROFL! like what? List Godse's contribution to the indian freedom struggle,please? A incitory particpation against Nizam of hyderabad! when it comes to any perceived "anti muslim" issue, the dedication of Godse and fellow hindutvas cannot be devoted :) But when it comes to facing the mighty british? the bigoted cowards just "chickened" out! Its amazing how these traitors who contributed so little in our hour of need and aided the divide and rule of the british(wat did they do in the quit india movement?), have the gall to comment on the mahatma! so sick and disgusting! Yes the hindu right wing opposed partition...but only because they had this perverted idea of a "muslim nation" being under "hindu nation" Savarkar, the father of hindutva declared "i have no quarrel with Jinnah's two nation theory" but yet did not want partition! Why heck should two seperate nations exist in the same polity? so Moronic and saidstic! so are his gullible followers and sucessors of this con-men of the right |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 250 of 539 ) Does the mainstream media have the guts to publish the opinions of Mahatma Gandhi on the topic of conversion, that is ripping the nation apart? Sample a few of his thoughts : "An average hindu is a coward and an average muslim is a bully" "If I had the power and could legislate, I should certainly stop all proselytising". |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 251 of 539 ) Few more thoughts of Gandhi that the english media should publish, to make him more relevant: “If instead of confining themselves purely to humanitarian work such as education, medical services to the poor and the like, they would use these activities of their for the purpose of proselytizing, I would certainly like them to withdraw. Every nation considers its own faith to be as good as that of any other. Certainly the great faiths held by the people of India are adequate for her people. India stands in no need of conversion from one faith to another.” “Conversion nowadays has become a matter of business, like any other. I remember having read a missionary report saying how much it cost per head to convert and then presenting a budget for ‘the next harvest.” |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 252 of 539 ) Some more thoughts of Gandhi on conversion that is relevant to India today: "It follows from what I have said above that India is in no need of conversion of the kind I have in mind. Conversion in the sense of self-purification, self-realization is the crying need of the times. That however is not what is ever meant by proselytizing. To those who would convert India, might it not be said, ‘Physician heal thyself’?" "If you (christians) interpret your texts in the way you seem to do, you straight away condemn a large part of humanity unless it believes as you do. If Jesus came to earth again. he would disown many things that are being done in the name of Christianity" |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 253 of 539 ) "I cannot help saying that the activities of the missionaries in this connection have hurt me. I could understand the Muslim organizations doing this, as Hindus and Muslims have been quarrelling. It hurt me to find Christian bodies vying with the Muslims and Sikhs in trying to add to the numbers of their fold. It seemed to me an ugly performance and a travesty of religion." "They present a Christianity of their belief but not the message of Jesus as I understand it. The more I study their activities the more sorry I become." "But when you say I must accept Jesus in preference to Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, you will have to go into deep waters. But what else is Christianity as it is preached nowadays? Not unless you isolate the proselytizing aspect from your educational and medical institutions are they any worth. Why should students attending Mission schools and colleges be compelled or even expected to attend Bible classes?" |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 254 of 539 ) It is the media that has made him utterly irrelevant, not the RSS/VHP..... It is the media that has suppressed his thoughts/opinions/utterances about sensitive matters like conversion solely to keep the dollars flowing in from Vatican and the petro dollars flowing in from saudi arabia. Whether he meant what he said can be a matter of separate discussion, but the media has no business to doubt Gandhi, a person it quotes for everything else. It should be publishing these thoughts as 'Thus spake the Mahatma' everyday during these highly charged times. Or is it because Gandhi's thoughts on conversion are very much in sync with the opinions of RSS/VHP....., and this would in turn hurt the goodies that flows from Vatican and al arab al saudia !!!! |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 255 of 539 ) vikram, You forget all the thieving congress politicians who would wear khadi everywhere and speak piously about secularism and gandhi, while they made quick phone calls to check their swiss bank accounts between their "Gandhi is god" speeches. |
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Satnam 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 256 of 539 ) Vikram, Do you think Gandu shitwit knows that there is a Muslim seperatist movement today in communist China and does he know the extreme harshness in with which it is being handled. Do you think Gandu pukewit knows about Chechnya terrorism and the strong measures excommunist Russia is using to combat terrorism there. |
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Satnam 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 257 of 539 ) To ALL, Why does anyone not discuss the sources of livelihood of Maino family. How did the near Marxist haramkhor Nehru and his socialist daughter accumulate all this wealth.Does anyone dare to inquire if they have Swiss bank or some such similar accounts. Similarly, is no one interested in talking about the mock kidnapping of that soft core Jehadi Mufti Mohammed Sayaad's daughter. What was the real story there. |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 258 of 539 ) Yet another cliche voiced by mentally bankrupt turds like Mensa(what a name to hide behind) No political leader of the Raj days suffered more than VD Savarkar. Two life senetences to be suffered consecutively on the Andamans! Which congressi maderchod suffered like this.Some of his most heartrending poetry was written in blood on the walls of his cells because no writing material was permitted. Do you believe that Subhash Chandra Bose was a hijda to remain with Congress.He had already moved away.Sardar Patel and the Netaji could well have been the founders of Jan Sangh if they had lived long enough. One of the great leaders of the revolutionary martyrs Pandit Chandrashekhar( Azad) was pure RSS in thinking. If Bhagat Singh And Rajguru were alive after the holocaust of 1947, Chacha Nehru's goose would been cooked much earlier. Nathuram Godse and Narayan Apte delivered the just punishment to Mohandas Karambhrashta for the genocide practised on the 5 million Hindu Sikhs by Paapiland. The hypocrite had fasted "unto death" for protecting minorities which as would be expected were only the Muslim fifth column in India! Mohandas and Nehru were Dharmadrohis and Rashtradrohis to whom their sainthood was more important than the lives of minorities in Paapiland.These two halkats might have found cocksucking very enjoyable but both of them crossed the limits of shame.The Mullahs surely enjoyed! |
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mensa 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 259 of 539 ) "Yet another cliche voiced by mentally bankrupt turds " bwahahahahaha! cannot stand unpalatable facts and these exposure ,heh? is this RSS idealogue mentally bankrupt turd" too? :))) p. Parameswaran - “The worst they can say about the RSS is that it did not participate in the freedom struggle." I wish the media highlights these treasonous,dubious role of the right wing during the indian freedom struggle more often unfortunately very few are aware of it. time for correction i say! And i treat your ilk beneath contempt.I am wat i am reg of all the nonsense you say....so shove it where it does not shine Face hard facts and take it on the chin like a man !:) |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 260 of 539 ) Satnam, You bet these indian commies not only know, but also play an active part in aiding the chinese govt. in putting down the muslims in xinjiang province. In fact, a main reason for the British carving pakistan out of India was to use a islamic nation as a block against the Soviet (which being communist was polarised against totally theocratic nations, and at that time the west never anticipated any trouble from china which was a totally depraved nation).But yes oppose Soviet it did, but in the process it turned out into a bigger evil than communism. And you know how the xinjiang muslims are treated by China? Slightly better than the 'inquisition' is the most diplomatic way I can put it. And these muslims are given no oppotunities in mainland china. Is there a caste system there? |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 261 of 539 ) Satnam, The media does not discuss the smuggling activities of Antonia Maino (aka Sonia Gandhi) coz the dole they receive from the Vatican will be cut. This Italian bitch (due apologies to the dog for having compared it with this italian whore) smuggles idols and antiquarts from south indian temples and smuggles it out of the country to her shop in Italy. And can you guess the name of that smuggling shop? GANPATI. Not only this, the money this bitch and her italian lovers (foremost among them being Quattrochi who is stashed away in Malaysia and who pisses in his pants when he dreams of being brought to India) made from Bofors deal is a household story. But you can't speak all this, you can speak only the commie version of hindus=rightists, safrron, stone worshippers, primitive, bad....... |
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mensa 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 262 of 539 ) "No political leader of the Raj days suffered more than VD Savarkar. Two " "chicken" wud be more appropriate for "veer" :) Wat his story after his imprisonment though? An abject surrender to british authorities which released him under restrictions until 37. did he mess with the british after that????? Nope...bitching/beating upon mussalmans is easier for the right wing than face the british and their lathis !:) here the glorious extracts from his letters...how many can be as servile as these???? "snip....Therefore, if the government in their manifold beneficence and mercy release me, I for one cannot but be the staunchest advocate of constitutional progress and loyalty to the English government which is the foremost condition of that progress....snip........The Mighty alone can afford to be merciful and therefore where else can the prodigal son return but to the parental doors of the government? " "I hereby acknowledge that I had a fair trial and just sentence. I heartily abhor methods of violence resorted to in days gone by, and I feel myself duty bound to uphold law and the constitution to the best of my powers and am willing to make the reform a success in so far as I may be allowed to do so in future." "But this Order has forced me to understand this condition in narrower sense. While I am trying to define to myself my position in view of this new order,I must humbly beg to request in as much as this Order came to my hand on the 8th of May,all my writings and speeches prior to that date should not be subjected to that interpretation as they were guided by the first or direct interpretation I naturally put on the meaning of terms of my conditions of release.Of course all my actions subsequent to the date of the receipt of your letter would be subjected to this interpretation. I have the honour to be, Sir, Your most obedient servant" hmm..."most obedient servant", heh? And these "hindutva einsteins" think savarkar is a hero whereas those who agitated relentlessly against the mightiest empire then for deacdes with enormous scarifices are freely condemned !:) . hohohohohoohhoohohoho |
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mensa 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 263 of 539 ) "Sardar Patel and the Netaji could well have been the founders of Jan Sangh if they had lived long enough. " bwahahahaaa! again hijacking heroes who don't belong to them from outside! didn't RSS and hindu mahasabha exist at that time? what the heck did they do??? Sardar, though sympathetic to the right ,did say "they had a misguided train of thought" He also admonished Gowalkar ""It was not necessary to spread poison in order to enthuse Hindus and organise for their self-protection. As a final result of their poison, the country had to suffer the sacrifice of the invaluable life of Gandhiji. The RSS man expressed joy and distributed sweets." do you all you hindutvas, who invoke sardar, ever heed to his wiser counsels like the above?????? Netaji was a leftist and went onto forward bloc before his escape bhagat was a leftist too... "Nathuram Godse and Narayan Apte" wat the heck did these brainwashed idiots contribute to indian freedom? ??? wat right do the same hindu rightwing that has little or nothing to show but a dubious attitude,hate/prejudice have to judge those who did? and you fit for nothing traitors have the gall to talk????? |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 264 of 539 ) Any answers to my question please? |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 265 of 539 ) Mensa: "As a final result of their poison, the country had to suffer the sacrifice of the invaluable life of Gandhiji. The RSS man expressed joy and distributed sweets." Why don't you continue and publish the statements of Sardar Patel on the indictment of RSS in Gandhi's murder? I will do it for you! sample this. Here comes the most damaging indictment of the Government, for charging the RSS for the assassination of Gandhiji, from no less than the Home Minister, Sardar Patel, himself. To a letter from Pt. Nehru pressing him to find out the RSS connection in the affair, Sardar Patel categorically stated in his reply of 27th February 1948, “I have kept myself almost in daily touch with the progress of investigation regarding Bapu’s assassination case... All the main accused have given long and detailed statements of their activities... It also clearly emerges from these statements that the RSS was not involved in it at all.” The same letter also exposes the despicable perversity of the Congress and other party leaders in spreading the canard that RSS men had distributed sweets in the wake of Gandhiji’s murder. Sardar Patel says, ‘Every item of information that is being communicated to us through sources, known and unknown, real, anonymous or pseudonymous is being investigated. More than 90 percent of these have been found to be just imagination. Most of these have been directed to the activities of RSS men in various centres. We have followed this up, and except vague allegations that sweets were distributed or joy was expressed, hardly anything of substance has been found in them. The letter also admits in what a reckless manner a large number of arrests were made,’ merely on the heresay of someone being an RSS man. Patel says “....both we and Provincial Governments are being accused of rounding up innocent people.” And of course, you leftists (a total misnomer) will never say that the Court did not find the RSS guilty of Gandhi's murder, wil you? The much awaited judgement over the Gandhi murder trial was pronounced. It put the seal of justice, on what was already evident - that the RSS had no hand, direct or indirect, in the crime. Nor was there any countrywide conspiracy involving thousands as was made out to be. The RSS was so completely exonerated that the name of RSS did not figure at all in the judgement even as a remote cause. Pushing lies, shouting, braying, acting with disdain will only get you so far. After that, plunnnnnkkkkkk! |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 266 of 539 ) Lifting gutter statements from the minutes of a congress general meeting will get you only thus far! Sample some of the findings of the Kapur commission (what is that?) A Commission was set up in 1966 under T. L. Kapur, a retired Judge of the Supreme Court, to make a fresh and thorough enquiry into the plot to murder Mahatma Gandhi. The Commission sat at different places, - examined no less than 101 witnesses and 407 documents before it published its Report, in 1969. It was an extensive -and searching enquiry. One of the important witnesses was Sri R. N. Bannerjee, I.C.S. (Witness 19) who was the Home Secretary of the Central Government at the time of the murder. The evidence of Shri R. N. Bannerjee was: “It has not been proved that they (the accused) were members of the RSS which shows that they (the accused) were believers in a more violent form of activities than mere parades, rallies, physical exercises, and even shooting practices.” (Kapur Commission Report, Vol. 1, Page 165). Again, the learned Commission comments that even if the RSS had been banned earlier, it would not have affected the conspirators or the course of events, ‘because they (the accused) have not been proved to have been members of the RSS nor has that organization been shown to have had a hand in the murder.” (Kapur Commission, Vol. I, page 186) It is true that the RSS, was banned soon after the murder of Mahatma Gandhi. But can a ban on RSS by an executive authority prove the charge of murder? Let Shri R. N. Bannerjee himself answer: “In Delhi also there is no evidence that the RSS as such was indulging in violent activities as against Mahatma Gandhi or the top Congress leaders.” (Ibid, page 66) |
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mensa 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 267 of 539 ) "Why don't you continue and publish the statements of Sardar Patel on the indictment of RSS in Gandhi's murder?" aaargh! Read my quoted statement again slowly and clearly,mister. When did i accuse RSS of being indicted in Gandhi's murder? I only quoted to show how Sardar admonished Gowalkar. Also my comments below "He also admonished Gowalkar" "do you all you hindutvas, who invoke sardar, ever heed to his wiser counsels like the above??????" indicates my purpose. So your accusations fall flat :) "spreading the canard that RSS men had distributed sweets in the wake" When has it still been refiuted anyway ?:) It only says-"except vague allegations that sweets were distributed or joy was expressed, " no refutation even here...Anyway that not the my main intent for posting the quotes "Pushing lies" wheer are the lies? find them! "acting with disdain " this advice is most needed for your hindutva comrades :) |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 268 of 539 ) And your message smacks of hyprocrisy - the first line you call Netaji as a hero (that too, hijacked by the rightists). And you end your message with calling Netaji a brainwashed idiot! Now let us come to the great deed of our syphilictic chacha nehru. Sample his letter to Clement Attlee, the PM of UK. "To Mr.Clement Attlee, Prime Minister of Britain, 10 Downing Street, London. Dear Mr. Attlee: I understand from a reliable source that Subhas Chandra Bose, your war criminal, has been allowed to enter Russian territory by Stalin. This is a clear treachery ad betrayal of faith by the Russians. As Russia has been an ally of the British-Americans, it should not have been done. Please take note of it and do what you consider proper and fit. Yours sincerely, Jawaharlal Nehru." |
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mensa 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 269 of 539 ) "And you end your message with calling Netaji a brainwashed idiot!" Not at all. i use double quotes and debate quote by quote . ok i will use some other seprators for distinguishing the quote of the other person I was dealing with "Nathuram Godse and Narayan Apte" "Now let us come to the great deed of our syphilictic chacha nehru." watz the evidence??? " Sample his letter to Clement Attlee, the PM of UK." I respect both netaji and Nehru,though they had their fights. The congress felt netaji was miguided in taking the help of nazis and japs. i endorse them there. their personal clashes are NOT my concern |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 270 of 539 ) Mr. (or Ms.) Mensa, nice to hear from you that you don't subscribe to the marxist canard that RSS is behind the murder of gandhi. |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 271 of 539 ) and also nice to know that you respect Netaji too! |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 272 of 539 ) Your letter gushes forth like the proverbial menstruation discharge. The language and format of the letter to the British Government is standardized.A couple of decades on the Andamans is adequate sacrifice, unlike those resting in Aga Khan palaces. |
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indtruth 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 273 of 539 ) To Sinbad: Menstruation???? Are you from Islamic militant philosopy who believe in terrorising females. Gandhi is still relevent for not accepting Christian lure of white females and money. His dedication and sacrifices to the nation are the "Mashals" People need to take. Today, pinkos and congress wants destroy Hinduism and made "Harijan" (God's people) a shameful name. Today, they are called dalit. I am one of the God people and i would love to be called Harijan even if i not a dalit. Torry, labor etc. were slangs and slurs but today they made it a main democratic party. Gandhi used Harijan name to give dalit spiritual position but congress rule and pinkos propaganda made sure that Harijan become a slur. |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 274 of 539 ) I have posted tens of opinions given by Gandhi about the mischief of christian conversions. Why does the media not project the real opinion of Gandhi vehemently opposing the conversion activities of the christian missionaries and also his opinion that untouchability is not at all part of hinduism but a social problem. It is the Media, the pinkos, the kaangress, the marxist communists that suppress this information with the ulterior motive of burying hinduism in this land of eternal dharma. Leave aside these pimps, where is the 'gandhian' Nirmala Dehspande who instead of voicing these regularly prefers to go to wagah border and light candles, goes to pakistan, bows down to musharaff and foul mouths india and hindus. Even these type of creatures have to be dealt with. Fie on these pseudo-secular bastards who like pimps (and whores!) sell their religion for a few dollars and dinars! |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 275 of 539 ) Harijan is a good name and it is the christian missionary bastards aided and abetted by the marxists and kaangress kangaroos that have renamed it to dalits and de-humanised the constituents. At one go, these bastards have removed the hindu word 'hari' from their identity, made the harijans feel ashamed of their hinduness and ancestors, injected enemity and animosity in them against their own fellow hindus. But even after converting from hinduism to christianity, these poor people remain dalits !! they become christian dalits instead of hindu harijans!! This is the real reason for changing the name from 'harijan' to 'dalit'. How can the vatican accept a section of its believers who go by the name 'christian harijans'? who are in fact 'jesusjan'!!. Wipe out all traces of hinduism - so wipe out the hindu name 'hari' and change their identity to 'dalit'!! All for the sake of harvesting their souls in the name of the son of the holy spirit! |
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indtruth 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 276 of 539 ) UNHOLY Trinity of Media, Kaangress, Commis don't mind using AD & BC in news and India Text books even if they are having Christian Communality in it( BC before christ & AD in the year of lord Jesus). Sunday christian sabbath day was made national holiday even if christian Britisher were kicked out for good. They left but they left behind their slave who want to have Sunday holiday, anti Hindu policies, Humiliate Hindu in their own country by using Golden word "Secular". Hindu don't like to interfere in others way of like. But christian cann;t live in peace and they have to interfere to change our way of life. When Hindu protest then UNHOLY Trinity jumps into actions with their loud mouth and foreign intelligence. There is no doubt that foreign intelligence have infiltrated all the major parties. Indira Gandhi couldn't even take strong action against on Pak becuz of her own party worker who were in CIA payrols. Commis are full chinese and saudis ISI agents. There is so much power behind this UNHOLY Trinity that Hindu find themselve cornered and helpless. More prosecution by this Trinity would bring out a revolution that would be hard for anyone to handle. Bala Saheb call for dedicated Hindu soldier is the begining. Media must respect Hindu sentiment if they want to remain legitimate before the Indian society. They must leave Unholy trinity before people shun them for good. Support people like Chandrababu Naidu, Jayalalitha, Vajpayee, Sangma, Pawar etc if you want to channel people energy in right path. |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 277 of 539 ) We need to begin by targetting the media which is the mouthpiece and the external image of the imperialistic forces like vatican and the islamists. Just a few 'accidental' deaths of Shekar Gupta, N. Ram, Vinod Mehta, Kuldip Nayar and Arundhati Roy will show the way to the indian media. And every statement of Bal Tackarey and Praveen Togadia makes these shit heads piss in their pants coz it indicates that hindus are rising from their slumber and are starting to counter the satanic forces of vatican and jihadis (assisted and abetted by indian media, international media, CIA, ISI, the saudis, congress party, communists....). But these pseudo seculist bastards must understand - "You cant fool everyone all the time" |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 278 of 539 ) To INDTRUTH, #272 was addressed to a muckraker called Mensa, probably a Jehadi halkat. I do not, I repeat, do not subscribe to the concept of untouchability. You can call yourself, Maratha, Rajput,Bengali, Sikh, Gurkha,Brahmin or anything you feel like,it is then your responsibilty to live up to that. If you want to belong to Hari that is also OK with me as you are the arbiter of your destiny. |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 279 of 539 ) Vikramji, The first pseudo-secularist was no other than Mohandas Karambhrashta, sorry to say.If you disagree, we would then agree to disagree. To this person lives of a handful of Muslims in Naukhali were more important than five million Hindu Sikhs in West Punjab,let us just call it West Punjab under the doctrine: "Sab Bhumi Gopalki,isme Attock kaha." Maharaja Ranjit Singhji as he crossed into Afghanistan with Sikh, Dogra and some assorted Hindu soldiers. |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 280 of 539 ) Sinbad, I have read various things both good, not so good and downright ugly about Gandhi. And I surely do not subscribe to many (in fact most) of his acts and views. And I would rate his contribution to India's freedom as nothing more than those of various other luminaries like Bal Gangadhar Tilak, Netaji, Aurobindo, Patel, Rajaji etc., Gandhi shot into limelight due to the absense of Tilak and Netaji. One cannot forget the biased manner in which Gandhi behaved when Netaji won the INC elections. I still do not know the compulsion of Gandhi in his closeness to the rapist Nehru. I would surely pick out Bal Gangadhar Tilak, Aurobindo and Netaji as the main force behind Indian independence movement. His behaviour during the partition was totally biased in favour of muslims. His shameless behaviour towards the hindu and sikh refugees from Pakistan is condemnable. He was one man who screwed up the partition of India totally. He chose to make only the hindus and hindu parties to act and give concessions and he NEVER made muslim league or the muslims do anything for the hindus. He only played his satyagraha card with the hindus and never with the muslims. And Hindus can never forgive him for the silent role he played in the khilafat movement, mopla and mallapuram riots in kerala and the naokali massacre, the shameless manner in which he protected the muslim who murdered Swami Shraddanand, for calling Shivaji and Ranjit Singh as upstarts. And above all hindus will never forgive him for giving India a bastard like Nehru. And his sexual perversions are better not spoken about. But there is one aspect of Gandhi which you cannot fail to appeciate. That is that he expressed his views on the perversity of christian missionaries. He did some good things to improve the lot of the harijans. He discouraged them from leaving Hinduism and converting to Christianity. And he admonished Ambedkar for converting to buddhism (although buddhism is also based on vedantas). But then what people should remember is that he was not the only one. There were various other people like Subramanya Bharathi in TN who pioneered the eradication of caste system in south. |
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mensa 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 281 of 539 ) "Your letter gushes forth like the proverbial menstruation discharge" hahahahahahahaha. i am speechless !:) . These comical comments came for good entertainment though! those were 3 "glorious" letters from "veer" chicken savarkar first a mercy petition(ask your more informed sanghis, who will put spin ofcoourse but won't deny it). Second a complete himiliating surrender to british for a conditional . The third an explanation to a british official on his writings "A couple of decades on the Andamans is adequate sacrifice, unlike " Whoah! for the same hindutvas who condemn the leaders of our strenuous freedom movement for making a rational decision to avoid a catastrophic civil war, standards are so dramatically lowered for others ! hmm...to each his own opinion and values !:) if you post this nonsense on a public domain, expect a befitting reply! He was shifted from andamans to ratnagiri prison by early 20's and restrictively released under the condition he would remain within ratnagiri district and away from politcal troubles Its not a "couple of decades" |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 282 of 539 ) Vikramji, Above is an excellent analysis of Mohandas.No one can deny that he was a shrewd trader but that was limited to his dealings with the British.He always described Gopal Krishna Gokhale as his Guru, just as Jinnah did and yet Gokhale declined membership of the Servants of India Society to Gandhi. Why. Gokhale was to decent a person to explain.Obviously, Gokhale noticed something in Gandhi which others did not. We are an unlucky people. Peshve Madhvarao died at 27, probably poisoned by a Hakim.Earlier, Peshve Bajirao at 37. Emperor Shivaji at 47, Emperor Sambhaji,warrior incarnate, at 32,(torture murder by Aurangzeb). Guru Govind Singh at about 47.Similarly Bal Gangadhar Tilak died suddenly in August 1920. He was an earlier edition of the Sardar but more erudite and with an all India base.And guess what, Gandhi begins appeasing the Muslim whichcontinued shamelessly till Nathuram Godse and Narayan Apte put an and to the agony. |
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mensa 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 283 of 539 ) "muckraker called Mensa, probably a Jehadi halkat." Yes by this logic, an american who exposes KKK is an enemy of america.A german who exposes nazis is an enemy for germany !:) Its hindu mahasabha and RSS who played a dubious role during india's hour of need! suck on it, will ya? :) And learn to talk some commonsense! "To this person lives of a handful of Muslims in Naukhali were more important than five million Hindu Sikhs" rofl! Noakhali saw killings of mostly hindus rather and Gandhiji went there bravely ,often encountering hostile muslims who asked "what about muslims of bihar?" Get your facts straight |
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mensa 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 284 of 539 ) "Bal Gangadhar Tilak" Has some substance " Aurobindo " had a nice stay in pondy after 1910 " and Netaji " Enormous effort to raise an army and nice ideals. the sucess was more after its collapse at the INA trials " He was one man who screwed up the partition of India totally. " Can a leader wage a magic wand or something? they are also humans He had little rational choice other than a catastrophic civil war as alternative The country effectively plunged into anarchy after the direct action day call and There is little that any human can do when sanity takes a flight Its a section of selfish people who failed him.Its the will of the people that makes a nation If people keep saying "me hindu hindu hindu" and "me muslim muslim muslim", how can they live together in one roof? Combined with the socio poltical factors that led to the Two nation theory , the mobilising of muslim communal sentiment by Muslim league , the will power displayed by Jinnah and intrigues by imperial rulers as always |
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mensa 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 285 of 539 ) "His behaviour during the partition was totally biased in favour of muslims" And Jinnah was complaining about congress and Gandhi out of thin air, is it? "he NEVER made muslim league or the muslims do anything for the hindus." And Muslim league would listen to him? He felt mere superficial statements from muslims are futile. That muslims must genuinely ashamed if their coreligionists indulge in murder and mayhem. Anything wrong with this? He called upon all sides to stop killings...so whats the problem? " He chose to make only the hindus and hindu parties to act and give concessions" Is the life ,livelihood and a right to stay in a homeland a concession???? He had support from only sections of muslims.That many muslims choose muslim parties and finally Jinnah and muslim league is their choice. "And Hindus can never forgive him for the silent role he played in the khilafat movement, mopla and mallapuram riots in kerala and the naokali massacre" You read more about this from more books and sources before you make these baseless comments |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 286 of 539 ) "His behaviour during the partition was totally biased in favour of muslims" And Jinnah was complaining about congress and Gandhi out of thin air, is it? "he NEVER made muslim league or the muslims do anything for the hindus." And Muslim league would listen to him? He felt mere superficial statements from muslims are futile. That muslims must genuinely ashamed if their coreligionists indulge in murder and mayhem. Anything wrong with this? He called upon all sides to stop killings...so whats the problem? " He chose to make only the hindus and hindu parties to act and give concessions" Is the life ,livelihood and a right to stay in a homeland a concession???? He had support from only sections of muslims.That many muslims choose muslim parties and finally Jinnah and muslim league is their choice. "And Hindus can never forgive him for the silent role he played in the khilafat movement, mopla and mallapuram riots in kerala and the naokali massacre" You read more about this from more books and sources before you make these baseless comments |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 287 of 539 ) Mensa, The entire conflict with Sardar Patel revolved around getting tough with the League, a toghness the Sardar had and this comocal duo of Gandhi and Nehru lacked. DO YOU WANRT TO ADDRESS THE TRACHERY OF Dr. Sayed mahmud and Josh Malihabadi |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 288 of 539 ) "Is the life, livelihood and a right to stay in a homeland a concession????" The partition is a package deal. Most did not like it, but a decision was made by the leaders that the partition MUST be made. So that's it. Now what is this bullshit about "You send all the hindus and sikhs and we will keep all the muslims here". How can he decide for the millions of hindus only and can never take one such decision for muslims? Who will refuse such an offer? and most of all islamic jihadis! Once Gandhi himself has agreed to the partition based on religious lines, is it not hypocratic on his part to dictate terms only to the hindu side. He may have thousands of personal ideals, but once as a leader he has agreed to the partition on religious lines, he had no business in forcing pressure on the indian side and he did it only because it listened to him. Once the partition was decided, allowing muslims to live in MY land is a CONCESSION, an ALM, a GRATIS. |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 289 of 539 ) Veer Savarkar's value cannot be destroyed on the strength of a release petition. Go and research how many shameful roundabouts Gandhi made. The partition was to be made over his dead body!And his comical fasts unto death during which he never died, then the clumsy logic the Muslim League and thus the Muslims would not listen to him. Look, Gandhi's secularism died an abortion death in 1947 and Nehru's with the uprising in J&K, this is a bloody miscarriage. |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 290 of 539 ) Viramji, This is what the Sardar said. "We would have no alternative but to send Muslims in equal numbers" ...to stop the escalating influx of Hindu/Sikh refugees into India. Sardar Parel's correspondence Vol 7 , page 670. If Mohandas Karambhrashta could not speak on behalf of Muslims, he should have left the negotiations on the part of the Hindus to the Sardar and the Leader of the Hindu Mahasabha, VEER Savarkar.One caanot represent a client who does not give plenopotentiary powers to oneself. |
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mensa 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 291 of 539 ) "The entire conflict with Sardar Patel revolved around getting tough with the League, " Sardar was one ofthe first to be convinced by VP menon its better to let muslim majority provinces go and concentrate on uniting a new nation, which they did wonderfully (i am not insulting sardar, mind you). rajaji proposed it much earlier Yet you all blame Gandhiji who didn't agree until June with a broken heart :) "this comocal duo of Gandhi and Nehru lacked." That's how they fought the mighty british empire (and SA too with Gandhiji) for over three decades, is it? Sardar too much pretty much agreed they had to face civil war or mountbatten's plan. The administration was totally breaking down with riots spreading and british in a hurry to leave. As Rajaji famously put " if there was no transfer of power, there would have been no power to transfer" Not only that.The leaders had to build a new nation integrating all the princely states and bargaining the terms of accession . Which was a challenging task in itself So instead of going down a treacherous unknown path of a civil war that would lead to loss of astonishing millions of lives (think about a small nation like Bosnia!), they choose to take the mountbatten plan , win the transfer and concentrate on building a nation They also hoped Pakistan would reunite someday, which was more emotional than rational though. But the overall decision was very rational and pragmatic,even though it was a very bitter pill to swallow And all this talk of confronting muslim league is not realistic What can you possibly do if tens of millions of people want to seperate with determination and a foreign power is ruling???? People inside the polity should be willing to build a nation.realistically |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 292 of 539 ) And the fifth columnists in India were but too happy to have Mohandas represent them against the interests of the Hindus because the Muslim League traitors had already left them behind in India, as would be expected from true jihadis. |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 293 of 539 ) First he said that the partition would take place over his dead body. Then it happened. Ok, we will accept for a minute that factors beyond his control played a role in bringing about the partition. But should he not be careful after the wretched partition took place. Should he not know his limitations? Should he not confine himself rather than aggravating the incendiary situation already existing by making demands and blackmailing only the hindus to accede to all his demands - 1.india pay Rs. 55 crore to Pakistan although they killed lakhs of our people and invaded kashmir and drove out hindus and sikhs in lakhs from lahore 2.india to take over the pakistan portion of liability portion (which pakistan agreed earlier but backed out in the last minute) to the imperial debts to the the British 3.ordering throwing out of sikh and hindu migrants in the cold mid night from mosques who took shelter there, refusing to listen to horror stories of hindus etc., I expect my 'father' to listen to the savage treatment meted out to me. My 'father' cannot say that he will not listen and he will not solve my problem becoz my brother (who abused me and my dignity) will feel bad. A 'father' who says that has no right to be called a 'father'. These acts are not indicative of an unbiased person that a normal hindu expects from his 'father'. He did not make one demand, not one to the muslims. Yes, Gandhi did play an important role in indian freedom struggle, but to attribute the whole freedom cause to him, to say that he was next to god and he never made any mistakes and refusing to see the whole load of mistakes (and downright blunders) is nothing but pig headedness. Whether those mistakes/blunders carried an intention or motive is something that can be debated about. But then when this society can discuss about Ram and Krishna, surely it can discuss the deeds and misdeeds of a mere mortal. |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 294 of 539 ) mensa, I am not laying the entire blame of partition on Gandhi. I do accept that things beyond his control (after all, Muslim league cannot be controlled by anyone except Allah!) made partition inevitable. And the British masterminded the game superbly (the evil karma of which is inevitable and they will surely pay for it). But I expect my 'father' to act in an unbiased way. As an Indian he is considered as my 'father' and not as the father of the pakis. But, if he acted on behalf of both indians and pakistanis, then we can call him as 'Father of undivided India'. |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 295 of 539 ) The British were highly sympathetic to the League as the Muslims and the League had been shamelessly servile and subservient to the Raj. It is you who are saying that Chachu Janwar Nehru amd Mohandas Karambhrashta won us freedom. The single watershed event was World War II and the weak condition in which England found herself at the end of the war with power having been handed over to the US. Why did the Raj not trust Hindu Mahasabha like they trusted the coolies of the Muslim League. If you have not heard of World War II, pls retire and spend next three years reading but kindly do not read cliches like a dumb parrot. I beg of you, Mensu, in your own interest. |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 296 of 539 ) Mensu, You little delight with Primary School education. You should know that even the megalomaniac Jinnah did not expect that Paapiland would be rid of all Hindu Sikhs and we would be left with all the Muslims. Because of this comical duo, the impossible happened. Jinnah ate his cake, kept it and sold a bundle to our assholes and this while he was dying of overdrinking. Mensu, do you know that Jinnah died od a "stomach ailment" soon after he eastablished Paapiland for the Paapis, but we have our Paapis too. Wow. What do youm say Mensu, my dear boy. |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 297 of 539 ) The partition was a chess game. The British Raj and the Hindu leaders and the hindu organisation were the players. The common hindus were the pawns of the hindu leaders, the muslims represented by the muslim league) were the pawns of the Raj. The british bastards were sympathetic to muslim league becoz they wanted to leave India totally shattered into various states before leaving this area for good. It was the fuckin british who played the religion card and watered the seed of communalism in the minds of the muslims (who were also feeling apprehensive about a hindu dominated nation who they thought would take revenge for all the evils of islamic invasion). It is not that the Raj did not trust the hindu mahasabha. They never wanted to deal with hindus becoz they were out to destroy this nation of hindus. And hindu mahasabha was a player and not a pawn in the hands of the Raj like the muslim league. They trusted the coolies of muslims league becoz these coolies were being used as willing pawns by the British. |
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mensa 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 298 of 539 ) "You send all the hindus and sikhs and we will keep all the muslims here". " You are getting the wrong picture. Our leaders agreed to partition only because they were forced to by ground realities. They never ideolgically agreed to the two nation thoery and vowed to keep opposing that vicious poison Saying muslims have to go to Pakistan is an endorsement of two nation theory. A secular state does not favor any religion in theory though in practise, the majority will predominate with numbers Also he wanted the newly independent country to maintain certain moral standards He said "Congress has won politcal freedom. But now it has to win economic,social and moral freeedom" That's the reason behind his fasts in the last days "and he did it only because it listened to him." You are contradicting yourself. If people listen to him, why did he have to force? That's where his legitimacy comes from! He was a mass leader And wisely hindus and many oher indians supported him and congress unlike many north indian muslims who supported a blatantly communal organisation like muslim league Result, India is one developing country that has defied the correlatation between democracy and affluence Whereeas Pakistn is a feudal tinpot dictatorship which cannot get a consistent politcal system working and ruined its progress by its patholgical negative anti indianness "allowing muslims to live in MY land is a CONCESSION, an ALM, a GRATIS." That is not how it works in in a civilised world. when did religion became the certificate of citizenship? Religion is no determinant of politcal citizenship. Its not civilised and immoral period. |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 299 of 539 ) Mensu, Pls ,boy,just a little more. If Veer Savarkar's extraordinary sacrifice can be maligned, why in the name of Holy Jesus and his Mother , we cannot talk about the comical duo that kept the liabilities and made a gift of the assets.Remember Yudhishthir of the Mahabharat,gabling away his wife and brothers. And, moreover,Chachu proved in dealing with the Chinese his crdentials as foo; par excellence. Remember Panch sheel, remember Tibet's rape, remenber Kalya Menon and 1962. Obviously you have not heard of the 4th,the 7th and 11th Indian Divisions have you. You are infantile, now go home to Mammy and cry. |
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mensa 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 300 of 539 ) "and the weak condition in which England found herself at the end of the war " They would leave the "jewel in the crown" which can help make up for their war loss, is it? Its a combination of factors. The loyalty of indians ,british depended upon like the adminsitrators ,the military men and the increasingly conscious average indian, the favourable attitude of Labour party were all factors Read a cross section of accounts "If you have not heard of World War II, " You have no clue about me !:) |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 301 of 539 ) Mensu, you do not give up ,do you. IF YOU DO NOT BUY THE TWO NATION THEORY THEN,HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT THE MUSLIMS EAST OF AMRITASR ARE SECULAR AND THOSE WEST OF AMRITASR ARE JEHADI MADERCHOTS.THEY READ THE SAME KORAN DON"T THEY!!!!!!! And you throw mud at VEER Savarkar, sit at his feet(figuratively speaking) and listen to Lata Mangeshkar and siblings recite "Ne majsi ne parat MATRUBHUMILA sagara pran talmalala" I guarantee you you do not have to know Marathi to have tears well up in your eyes, all you need is a Hindustani heart which I still have. "Jayostute he Mahanmangale" VEER Savarkar, the Tyatyasaheb. |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 302 of 539 ) Mensu, Did you understand the last line of the Tatyasaheb? Says, Let my mother be victorious, she is the greatest and the purest.Mohandas writes poetry like this. |
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mensa 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 303 of 539 ) " If Veer Savarkar's extraordinary sacrifice can be maligned," Savarkar sent mercy petitions ,offered complete surrender and didn't undertake a major anti british agitation for two decades! Not a occasional mistake These are the not stuff, heroes are made of...surrender to the enemy, beat up their countrymen instead and do nothing against an oppressor No decent comparison with those who fought till the end with determination and sacrifice :) Yes they were human and imperfect...but the bottomline is they did a lot "And you throw mud at VEER Savarkar," Do i have to? His deeds speak for themselves!:) but somepeople are way too prejudiced and blind to see it |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 304 of 539 ) Mensa, The ideology of a secular nation was defeated the moment our 'leaders' agreed to the partition, although reluctantly (becoz the only option may have been civil war). Yes, I accept that the partition was chosen as the lesser evil. But when you take a decision, you follow it up fully. A leader never takes half decisions. Right or wrong, good or bad, a decision is made. Partition was not only a half hearted decision but also an incomplete one. You cannot have a resultant secular nation by taking the hindus for granted, which is exactly what happened when the 'leaders' pushed down the balancing fate on to the people staying in india. What we got was purely the balancing figure, without our input being considered at all. |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 305 of 539 ) Mensa, I know that you have derived Mensa from the MENSA, the group of highly intelligent people. The Sardar and the Lal Bahadur were not terribly smart if you measure conventional IQ,but they were strong,good and clean people. Goodbye for now. |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 306 of 539 ) The people, you allege, VEER Savarkar beat up were the ones who broke up the country, murdered millions of Hindu Sikhs, cause terrorism in Kashmir and the North East, ,nay, the whole world.VEER Savarkar was truly a visionary! |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 307 of 539 ) Viramji, Well done! I do not want you against me. Peace. |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 308 of 539 ) "That is not how it works in in a civilised world." Partition on religious lines was not a civilised way of dealing with human sentiments (both hindu and muslim). And when that type of partition is considered as civilised, then follow it up with the same level of civility till the deal is complete. "when did religion became the certificate of citizenship?" It became so after it was decided that the country shall be divided on religious lines. "Religion is no determinant of politcal citizenship." Religion WAS THE SOLE DETERMINANT for deciding who is a pakistani. Religion was a determinant for deciding who will NOT settle in Pakistan (East & West). "Its not civilised and immoral period." Neither is a partition, that is based on communal lines. |
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mensa 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 309 of 539 ) "But I expect my 'father' to act in an unbiased way." If people can be called biased for calling for preserving moral values, tolerance and coexistence, then be it. The problem is more with the selfish,prejudiced mindset of some He went to Noakhali,where hindus were being killed. In calcutta, muslim rioters came and put down their weapons,primising no trouble again . Even during his last fast he hoped muslims in pakistan would be touched and start treating muslims/sikhs well there But muslim League was too cold even with their last delegation. He endorsed the Indian war effort in kashmir |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 310 of 539 ) Mensu, Now you are descending to the level of the total idiot. In Pakistan religion became the certificate of physical survival!!!!! What are you talking about. |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 311 of 539 ) Mensu, After a thousand words of defective logic and dubious veracity, your penultimate para speaks volumes for itself. I have to take the dogs out now! |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 312 of 539 ) Mensa, "Result, India is one developing country that has defied the correlatation between democracy and affluence" India is not developed (or even developing) DUE TO the decisions of our great 'leaders' at the time of partition, but INSPITE of those decisions. "Whereeas Pakistn is a feudal tinpot dictatorship which cannot get a consistent politcal system working and ruined its progress by its patholgical negative anti indianness" We agree on this point. 50 years of democracy in India produced an IT superpower that breeds and exports IT professoinals like mad. 50 years of dictatorship in Pakistan (punctuated by periodic democracies) produced a Madrassa superpower that breeds and exports terrorists and jihadis like mad. But again, there are still crackpots (and Indians, pakis understandable coz they want want a shade to hide in) who treat both these countries on an equal footing. If indians themselves indulge in this hypocrisy of treating these two countries on equal footing, how can we expect better respect from USA? Not only the governance system is to blame here, but more importantly the mindset of people. After all, governance system is a result of the mindset of the people constituting it and not the other way around. |
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mensa 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 313 of 539 ) "The ideology of a secular nation was defeated the moment our 'leaders' agreed to the partition" It was only a one time big blow...Why should not the country take the blow in its stride,persevere and preserve its good values? There is no excuse for going BAD. This "others are bad, me too bad" logic is rubbish. "Yes, I accept that the partition was chosen as the lesser evil. " It was done out of compulsion, not voluntary "But when you take a decision, you follow it up fully." Yes the decision was taken to let those who did NOT want a secular india to LEAVE and those who wanted to stay in India to stay and thrive And they followed it up. "You cannot have a resultant secular nation by taking the hindus for granted," Why did People still love Gandhiji and kept congress in power for so long? Why were the hindu mahasabha trounced? You hindutva types do NOT represent all hindus and do NOT make a nation...you are merely a subgroup NO MORE " was purely the balancing figure, without our input being considered at all." They had the support and representative of majority of the indian people.Hence they had the right to make decisions on our behalf They did not take decsions because they liked it.but because they were froced to swallow a bitter pill for our larger interest "Partition on religious lines was not a civilised way of dealing with human sentiments (both hindu and muslim)." Civil war would have been FAR more inhuman and uncivilised.That's the alternative "It became so after it was decided that the country shall be divided on religious lines." We did not ACCEPT the two nation theory ideologically till TODAY! "Religion WAS the determinant for deciding who is a pakistani. Religion was a determinant for deciding who will NOT settle in Pakistan (East & West)." Two nation theory was pakistan's raison de etre. India's ideology was secular nationalism Pakistan too had minority citizens Hence QED |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 314 of 539 ) mensa: "Yes by this logic, an american who exposes KKK is an enemy of america.A german who exposes nazis is an enemy for germany !:)" So the VHP is guilty by your equating it with the KKK, eh, you devious pseudo-secular, marxist piece of shit. The KKK ACTIVELY LYNCHED BLACKS WHO NEVER PROVOKED THEM, AND DESTROYED BLACKS WHEREEVER THEY FOUND THEM. So far, the VHP has demanded that the Indian muslims give them their word that they will not embark on a jihad against hindus, AND THE MUSLIMS WILL NOT AGREE. I am sure you know the difference, yet you choose to lie, typical marxist shithead behavior. |
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mensa 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 315 of 539 ) "But again, there are still crackpots (and Indians, pakis understandable coz they want want a shade to hide in) who treat both these countries on an equal footing. " Maintain a phenomenal economic growth,increase our share of the world trade and FDI from current miniscule percent age and drive into the higher league Then no one treats us on a euqal footing with pakistan Its our strength that MATTERS! "After all, governance system is a result of the mindset of the people constituting it and not the other way around." Agreed. |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 316 of 539 ) mensa: "Civil war would have been FAR more inhuman and uncivilised.That's the alternative " With the proliferation of pseudo-seculaazr shitheads like you, who rewrite Indian history on a daily basis, I am pretty sure that a civil war would have the ridden the country of you pseudo-secular shitheads. As of now, you shitheads go around fearmongering among the cowardly hindus. Just remember that all of your devious shit cuts both ways. And I am sure many people would like to see you pseudo-secular motherfuckers bleed by your own sword. |
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mensa 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 317 of 539 ) "The KKK ACTIVELY LYNCHED BLACKS WHO NEVER PROVOKED THEM, " Both are bigots and targets certain communities...not enough similrity huh? " you devious pseudo-secular, marxist piece of shit." thoo! as if i need any certficate from uncivlised idiots of your sort. i don't care a damn |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 318 of 539 ) mensa: "Yes the decision was taken to let those who did NOT want a secular india to LEAVE and those who wanted to stay in India to stay and thrive" So why is that the "secular" shitheads who wanted to stay in India usually speak on the side of those who chose to leave to pakistan. For example, note how this white left-wing piece of shit MICHAEL KREPON writes in an INDIAN MAGAZINE editred by the marxist shithead Vinod MEhta LECTURES TO INDIANS ON WHY WE SHOULD talk to pakistanis even though they want to destroy india. The answer is that assholes like vinod mehta think themselves as more "western" than Indian, and would like to "civilize" us Indians to see the western point of view (which is entirely against India's interests, but that is a minor point if we go by this shithead Vinod Mehta) |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 319 of 539 ) mensa: "Both are bigots and targets certain communities...not enough similrity huh?" NO, you stupid, brainless pissant. That is similar to saying that chicken and a hawk are both identical because they are birds, you stupid shithead. And you are trying to tell us that you are associated with mensa? |
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mensa 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 320 of 539 ) "With the proliferation of pseudo-seculaazr shitheads like you, who rewrite Indian history on a daily basis, I am pretty sure that a civil war would have the ridden the country of you pseudo-secular shitheads." Why don't you bigoted hate filled cretins choose the antartic or north people for a fair fight with the jiahadis and leave the saner tolrant hindus and muslims ALONE?:) problem solved! I think you are too uncouth and filthy piece of rubbish to have a debate. You are on IGNORE or my own language goes down |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 321 of 539 ) By the way, the muslims in Godhra DID target a certain community too, did they not?/ So how come they escape your dubious comparison to the KKK, asshole? |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 322 of 539 ) mensa: "I think you are too uncouth and filthy piece of rubbish to have a debate" How convenient. This stupid shithead makes a bogus comparison of hindus with the KKK, and when forced to admit that he was tickling his tonsils with his toenails, suddenly pretends that he is far too urbane and sophisticated to consider such arguments. Does anyone here remember the behavior of jihadis like anwarsad, and the incredible similarity this shithead mensa has with the jihadis? |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 323 of 539 ) mensa: "Why don't you bigoted hate filled cretins choose the antartic or north people for a fair fight with the jiahadis and leave the saner tolrant hindus and muslims ALONE" "problem solved" Brilliant!! Yeah, sure I can see why you consider yourself part of mensa. |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 324 of 539 ) There are two shitty statements that keep going on in the media. 1.India should talk to Pakistan. Why should a 'secular' India speak to a 'jihadi' pakistan? More importantly, WHAT should we talk with these jihadis about? Should we advise them about the karmic theory about the evil karmas of their jihadi activity (Face it, Pakistan is an institutionalised mega suicide bomber, it knows it is doomed, but it wants to wipe out at least part of India in the bargain)? Should we offer them J&K and some more states to establish fraternal ties? 2.A prosperous Pakistan is in india's interest. Another pigshit statement that is purely for diplomatic consumption. If an economically and morally bankrupt Pakistan can cause the current level of terrorism against India and kill 40,000 indians (90% hindus), just imagine what a prosperous and rich Pakistan can do. It can wipe out India in a wink. |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 325 of 539 ) mensa: "Maintain a phenomenal economic growth,increase our share of the world trade and FDI from current miniscule percent age and drive into the higher league" All of this seems very brilliant until we consider the ground realities and the incredible problems we have with making India a market economy. The very leftists who mouth such plaitudes about economic prosperity, etc. are also the first ones to indulge in anti-millionaire/anti-rich tirades (anyone remember gandalf?) Given the general deivousness of this turd in this first few posts, I would not put it past him to be another devious leftist turd. "Then no one treats us on a euqal footing with pakistan " It is not as if they do so now. It is the Indian pseudo-secularists who consider our own ruling party the BJP, a bigger enemy than even pakistan. They reinforce every lie pakistan and the western assholes say, and deliberately lie and slander hindus and associated groups. "Its our strength that MATTERS!" Bravo. Someone hand this cretin a medal. He has clearly figured it all out without any input from the outside world. |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 326 of 539 ) All of you hindus should check out www.stopislam.com to see a monthly body count by islamic jihadis all over the world. If you think you are secular, start placing bets on when you will be part of the statistics on this web page. |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 327 of 539 ) "leave the saner and tolerant muslims alone?" !!!! Where are they? Such miniscule section of muslims are already left alone not only by hindus but also shunned by their jihadi majority. And clubbing hindu with the term muslim is a secular shit that is administered every now and then, when you consider that 95% of muslims have a jihadi mentality where as only 5% of hindus have an extremist mentality. India is prospering not INSPITE OF these 5% extremist hindus, but INSPITE of the 95% normal jihadi muslims. India is suffering not because of these 5% extremist hindus, but because of the 95% normal jihadi muslims. |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 328 of 539 ) People must know that secularism is possible in India NOT because of our constitution, NOT because of our legislations, NOT because of the pro-minority media, NOT because of the fact that 95% of the minority (muslims) are aggressive, but because 95% of the hindus are tolerant by nature. No amount of legislation or even the whole UN and NATO army put together cannot deliver secularism in india, if even 15% of hindus islamise their thoughts, deeds and religion. |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 329 of 539 ) "India is prospering not INSPITE OF these 5% extremist hindus, but INSPITE of the 95% normal jihadi muslims. India is suffering not because of these 5% extremist hindus, but because of the 95% normal jihadi muslims." brilliantly stated, vikramji. |
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mensa 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 330 of 539 ) "but INSPITE of the 95% normal jihadi muslims." This is a very irrational post How many of the 140 million muslims have you really met? And even then you have to know them very well ,understand them well to judge right Can you EVER substantiate this fact with hard evidence before making these assertions? Yes there are some bad elements ....and as it is with the bajrangis And all the hate/poison i am seeing here and elsewhere are hardly indicative of tolerance and compassion either. Are these only for show case and parroting? And India is secular inspite of both hindutva extremists and jihadis atleast to some extent :).long way to go.but the system is in place! Anyway, have spent too much time already here. Let me attend to other things |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 331 of 539 ) sinbad, not only syphillis, investigate their deeds during the world wars and you will see the real hand behind the actions of hitler and mussolini. The Vatican made a fortune during the world wars by investing in armament factories. Still making tonnes of money by indulging in holy activities like 'drug syndicates', 'antique smuggling, 'armament factories'. All for the purpose of 'salvation' of the poor souls of the world of course! |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 332 of 539 ) mensa: "an you EVER substantiate this fact with hard evidence before making these assertions?" Note that this is coming from a person who asserted that hindus and the KKK were identical. Typical marxist shithead behavior. "How many of the 140 million muslims have you really met?" Note that this mensa character seems to think that unless one PERSONALLY meets a majority of the muslims, one cannot make statements about the inherent jihadiness of muslims. Apparently, the regular reports of the bukharis, shahbudding, mushirul hassans, and the jilanis is not sufficient, if we go by this turd. "And even then you have to know them very well ,understand them well to judge right" While we are judging and understanding them they will be tying some plastic explosive to our bodies. Another brilliant suggestion by this mensa dude. |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 333 of 539 ) mensa, for your kind info' the following was stated by M.J. Akbar (the editor of Deccan Chronicle). Surely you do agree with a marxist turd like him, don't you? "People must know that secularism is possible in India not because of our constitution or that it has a vast minority population be because the vast majority of the hindus are tolerant by nature. But for this, no amount of legislation or armed forces can help in keeping India secular." Why do I agree with a marxist turd? Hindus look at WHAT is said, not WHO says it. We accept good things even from the devil. That is our nature. |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 334 of 539 ) "How many of the 140 million muslims have you really met?" Syed Shahabuddin is a normal muslim, Singhal is an extremist hindu. Do you need to go further than this to figure out the nature and mindset of hindus and muslims? In my opinion, Singhal is 100 times more humane than the educated Syed Shahabuddin. The latter is responsible for the shah bano case and the Ayodhya dispute. Go do some research and come back here before sprouting secular shit. |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 335 of 539 ) http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_95352,0012. htm Note how the pseudo-secular shitheads in the hindustan times deliberately use the valid SC judgement that if the govt. funds a religious school, they have a say in how it is run (This is exactly the rule of law even in the USA). But, note how these pseudo-secular shitheads twist this judgement to be an act of hatred for the "minorities". These are the same assholes who lecture to hindus about "following the rule of the law and the judgement of the suprement court" in the ayodhya case. The muslim jihadi fuckheads in the AIMPLB also chorus these "respect the supreme court" (unless they pass a judgement that goes against the jihadi sentiments of the muslims, or the proselytyzing of the christians, of course). |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 336 of 539 ) What these bastards don't say is that the Central govt. won the case. It confuses the presentation in such a manner that people don't understand in whose favor the court decided anyway! THE SUPREME COURT DECIDED IN THE CENTRAL GOVT. (BJP) FAVOUR AND RAPPED THE MINORITY INSTITUTIONS (MEANING MADRASSAS AND VATICAN FUNDED MISSIONARIES) ON THEIR ARSE (ALBEIT SOFTLY). The case is that the minority institutions said that govt. has no control or say over them and cannot interfere in their matters at all. Even govt. funded minority institutions claimed this immunity from the people who gave them funds (the govt.) That means madrassas can keep breeding jihadis and the govt. should not even look. The central govt. would have nothing of it. In fact, Soli Sorabjee, the Attorney General was a fuckin marxist and favoured the line of the minority institutions. The Govt. bypassed him and made Harish Salve, the Solicitor General represent the case. And the SC endorsed the govt. view in the end. This the pseudo secularist media has been careful to show that the judgement which turned out in favour of the hindu BJP is not declared as a victory of the BJP (which it actually is) and a defeat of the minority institutions (which again it actually is!!!). |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 337 of 539 ) vikram: "That means madrassas can keep breeding jihadis and the govt. should not even look." That is exactly correct. These bastards in Hindutan times also did not mention that privately funded religious institutions cannot be scrutinized by the government. These are the kinds of marxist liars hindus have to deal with. |
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mensa 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 338 of 539 ) "Hindus look at WHAT is said," Are "hindus" born to be siamese twins of the world or what, to think alike? :) If that's the case why are you hindutvas abusive and relentless engaed in a tussle with fellow hindus? :) Even you hindutvas cannot claim you all think identical. mull over it !:) "e because the vast majority of the hindus are tolerant by nature" I would say a bit of exagerration.I would agree if he merely states there are many tolerant ones in a majority as opposed to "vast". But i don't see how the hindutva gang can be called *tolerant* considering all the hate,poison,prejudiced opinions i have seen them spew in varying levels in a consistent manner over the years Yeah there are also some hindus from other politcal firmaments who are also a bit prejudiced/bigoted. But from my experience, intolerant hindus usually prefer sangh parivar since congress and other parties are painted as "appeaser of muslims". WHile a few others support sangh, as a result of other factors like ignorance of the intolerant culture of hindutva or dissatisfaction with congress "Do you need to go further than this to figure out the nature and mindset of hindus and muslims?" Yes.Without the sample size of 140 million or atleast a well distributed sample in various areas, any other conclusion is erroneous and arbitary Or there should be a strong indication like a popular mass jihadi campaign all over the country !:) "Muslims" and "hindus" are not one "monolithic unit" in practice. Trends vary among people from the same community in different regions and local environments. Just think of a hindu in various extreme parts of the country like Gujarat and Manipur. And a muslim in Tamil nadu and UP Even more importantly indivduals have traits and individual psychology is NOT uniform. You are talking about one indivdual in each community and claim a dramatic finding about "95% of muslims". Absolutely irrational and rubbish Comments like this "In my opinion, Singhal is 100 times more humane than the educated Syed Shahabuddin." are MERELY your opinion. Does n't constitute facts.sorry |
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mensa 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 339 of 539 ) Its amazing how hindutvas are willing to ignore the abject surrender and blatant inaction vs the british imperialists by the likes of savarkar just because they pander to anti muslim sentiments at enormous cost of indian internal unity and harmony and condemn those who don't but have far better deeds to show for Here is Ambedkar, a friend of savarkar exposing his schemes. "Strange as it may appear, Mr. Savarkar and Mr. Jinnah instead of being opposed to each other on the one nation versus two nations issue are in complete agreement about it. Both agree, not only agree but insist that there are two nations in India—one the Muslim nation and the other the Hindu nation. They differ only as regards the terms and conditions on which the two nations should live. Mr. Jinnah says India should be cut up into two, Pakistan and Hindustan, the Muslim nation to occupy Pakistan and the Hindu nation to occupy Hindustan. Mr. Savarkar on the other hand insists that, although there are two nations in India, India shall not be divided into two parts, one for Muslims and the other for the Hindus ; that the two nations shall dwell in one country and shall live under the mantle of one single constitution; that the constitution shall be such that the Hindu nation will be enabled to occupy a predominant position that is due to it and the Muslim nation made to live in the position of subordinate co-operation with the Hindu nation" |
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mensa 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 340 of 539 ) Why hindutva is not conducive...remember Ambedkar was hardly a fan of Islam "The Hindu Maha Sabha plan is no way to unity. On the contrary, it is a sure block to progress. The slogan of the Hindu Maha Sabha President— Hindustan for Hindus— is not merely arrogant but is arrant nonsense. " |
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mensa 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 341 of 539 ) At the ridiculous cntradiction between ideological endorsement of two nation theory and opposing partition "At the same time, it must be said that Mr. Savarkar's attitude is illogical, if not queer. Mr. Savarkar admits that the Muslims are a separate nation. He concedes that they have a right to cultural autonomy. He allows them to have a national flag. Yet he opposes the demand of the Muslim nation for a separate national home. If he claims a national home for the Hindu nation, how can he refuse the claim of the Muslim nation for a national home ?" |
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mensa 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 342 of 539 ) Similarities between RSS, hindu mahasabha and Muslim league (all trairtors) by Ram Puniyani extract: The relation of Muslim League and Hindu Mahasabha was quiet complex. On the face of it seems as if both these are opposed to each other. They were opposed to each other so far as Hindu Mahasabha said that it is a Hindu Rashtra so Muslims have to live a life subordinate to Hindus and Muslim asserted that since Muslims are a separate nation they should have separate state. But their basic premise and behavior was common: a. Religion is the basis of Nation state b. Gandhi-Nehru- Azads concept of Composite Indian Nationalism is wrong c. Both did not take part in any Anti British agitation d. Both had participation from Rajas, Jamindars (Hindu Mahasabha) and Jagirdars, Nawabs (Muslim League) e. British never applied any repressive measures against either of them. " |
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mensa 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 343 of 539 ) for those crying Appeasement of muslims, what is this? " This, however, did not stop Savarkar from encouraging the Hindu Mahasabha members of the NWFP assembly to join Aurangzeb Khan of the Muslim League in forming a coalition government in 1943: Savarkar’s circular instructions dated 10/6/43 may be seen in Home Political file 18/3/1943, FR (NWFP). Nothing came of this because Aurangzeb would not agree to Mehar Chand Khanna being named Speaker. But Hindu Mahasabha members joined Ghulam Hussain Hidayatullah’s Muslim League government in Sind and stayed on in the government even after the Sind Assembly became the first in India to pass a ‘Pakistan resolution’. " |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 344 of 539 ) Menstru, You idiot. Veer Savarkar was talking about a FEDERATION, do you know the meaning of this word? And you are suggesting that the concept of composite nationalism has worked here. It will not work because it is totally opposite to the dictates of the Koran. You seem to be obsessed with the personality of Veer Savarkar, why.There must be a solid reason here.And if he was not considered a threat by the Raj why was he sentensed to 50 years of hard labor on the Andamans. One little sliver of truth has emerged from your somewhat subtle lies that Ambedkar and Savarkar were friends. Why was this so? There must be a reason. I will tell you why you and your ilk(the jehadis and their pseudo secular asskissers) hate Veer Savarkar so much. |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 345 of 539 ) Veer Savarkar was an extraordinary visionary. He had foreseen the jehadi terror in the fifties. He was totaaly intolerant of people with dubious loyalties and wanted no compromises with National Security.Naturally fifth columnists such as you would hate him. Recently a maderchot by the name of Manishanker Ayer wrote some canards about Veer Savarkar and there was hue and cry by the treasury benches in the Lok Sabha. And I am still perplexed as to why this disinformation campaign against a great patriot who passed away in1966. The people of Bombay gave the largest funeral the city has ever given anybody. There is a massive statue of him for which generous help came from the government of Punjab. |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 346 of 539 ) Mensa: "Gandhi-Nehru- Azads concept of Composite Indian Nationalism is wrong" Some Indians speak about a synthetic culture: this is what a defeated people always speak about. The synthesis may be culturally true. But to stress it could also be a form of response to intense persecution. The (second) millennium began with the Muslim invasions and the grinding down of the Hindu-Buddhist culture of the north. This is such a big and bad event that people still have to find polite, destiny-defying ways of speaking about it. In art books and history books, people write of the Muslims 'arriving' in India, as though the Muslims came on a tourist bus and went away again. The Muslim view of their conquest of India is a truer one. They speak of the triumph of the faith, the destruction of idols and temples, the loot, the carting away of the local people as slaves, so cheap and numerous that they were being sold for a few rupees. The architectural evidence - the absence of Hindu monuments in the north - is convincing enough. This is quoted by the nobel prize laeureate V.S. Naipaul on what he thinks of composite culture and the mindset of indians to the islamic invasion. |
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hawkeyej 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 347 of 539 ) Vikram99 msg 280 : Sorry I am so backed up on messages, but just happened to read them now. I hate to say this but I agree with Vikram99 on the issue of Gandhi. And I think Bal Gangadhar Tilak died too early to have a say in the final reckoning, 20 more living years and we can't imagine what he could have achieved. I also admit I am astounded by your knowledge of all things Gandhi and would like to know what your references are. And what Nathuram Godse did was the right thing at the right time, I don't agree with people who say Gandhi should have been killed much earlier. With marginalisation of Tilak (obviously due to death), Savarkar(incarceration) and Netaji Bose who had to leave India, we needed a leader with that kind of tremendous popular support, irrespective of whether we agree with his methods *now*. |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 348 of 539 ) Menstru, You maderchod, only yesterday you were savaging Veer Savarkar for being anti Muslim. Make up your mind ,you pigshit eater. Essentially what you are saying is this. A murderous theocracy in Pakistan is none of our business, even though they have displaced nearly 100% of their Hindu Sikh minorities. They have been exporting Jehad to us for last 50 years. That is fine. Muslim insurgencies in Kashmir, the North East, in Junagadh, in Hyderabad, in Moplaland are fine. We must adhere to our Composite culture wwhich translates in plain English. Keep on appeasing the minorities who have given every possible proof of their extra-terrotorial loyalties until Abul Kalam Jehadi's dream of the subcontinent under Sharia laws is fulfilled. |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 349 of 539 ) hawkeye, Whether Godse should have killed Gandhi earlier is considered a blasphemous topic (me godse boltoy - a marathi play showing godse coming out with reasons for his murder of Gandhi is banned in India) and even if the marxist media does grow some common sense and permit such public discussion, it would require a separate discussion forum. But I can surely say that Godse should have pumped Nehru out of existence since that would have avoided all the shit that we are facing today. What the media has successfully achieved is heap all the credit for indian independence on Gandhi and Nehru (this is most pathetic) while criminally ignoring the innumerable flaws and downright sins of Gandhi and also by not projecting the real engines behind the struggle viz., Gopal Krishna Gokhale (the guru of Gandhi and Jinnah!), Bal Gangadhar Tilak, Subhas Chandra Bose, Sri Aurobindo etc., |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 350 of 539 ) Hawkeye, You speaketh well. The sudden death of Bal Gangadhar Tilak in 1920 has been well commented upon by Western writers.The Lokmanya was a staunch nationlist and started the Shivaji Jayanti festival and Ganesh Poojan in Bombay province. Mohandas Karambhrashta NEVER endorsed either as these would hurt the feelings of the minorities.You could visualize the Lokmanya as a real leader of the BJP instead of that spineless Vajpayee. |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 351 of 539 ) Vikramji,Hawkeye, I hope readers are aware that in the AICC session in Bombay circa 1946, the traitot Abul Kalam Jehadi propsed the name of Chachu for Congress Presidency. Mohandas was an enthusiastic supporter.The other candidate for Presidency was, guess who. SARDAR VALLABH BHAI PATEL. Given the timing Congress presidency was virtual a guarantee of future premiership. |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 352 of 539 ) sinbad, not to mention that Gandhi openly said that he thinks of Shivaji and Ranjit Singh as 'upstarts' and 'misguided patriots'!! And also he did not lift a finger to help when Bhagat Singh and Chandrashekar Azad were given death sentences. |
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mensa 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 353 of 539 ) ""Veer Savarkar was talking about a FEDERATION, do you know the meaning of this word?" Let me call you a moron. The fact is he endorsed two nation theory *ideologically*. Plain and simple "It will not work because it is totally opposite to the dictates of the Koran." There is an intrepretation called "dar ul aman" . obviously the likes of you are only paranoid about "dar ul harb" Bigots like you think it won't work because you don't like muslims. Just like anti semities in Germany did not want jews as part of their nation on the grounds "they cannot" and taken as a "useful lesson" and "racist pride at its highest" by Mr.Golwalkar "And if he was not considered a threat by the Raj why was he sentensed to 50 years of hard labor on the Andamans. " I already mentioned the problem was after his imprisonment and his abandonment of anti british attitudes after that and a abject surrender In any case This also begs the question .....if he was a threat why was he released? :) "I will tell you why you and your ilk(the jehadis and their pseudo secular asskissers) hate Veer Savarkar so much." Not at all.. when dubious characters like savarkar are paraded around as "heroes" by gullible hindutva cretins, i have a right to expose the truth behind it :) How can someone whi begged for mercy and surrendered to the british for the rest of his life be worthy of respect? "Veer Savarkar was an extraordinary visionary." Yes. As if there was any dearth of xenoiphobic/bigoted visionaries in this world :) "He was totaaly intolerant of people with dubious loyalties" All he had to do was to take a good look in the mirror :) " and wanted no compromises with National Security." Wonderful! spreading segregation and hate against fellow indians, hobnobbing and aiding divide and rule of the british ,opposing quit india movement were e wonderful defence of national secuirty :) ".Naturally fifth columnists such as you " the dubious role of RSS and hindu mahasabha during the freedom struggle and the surrender of savarkar shows who is the fifth columnist you blind dumbass! "And I am still perplexed as to why this disinformation campaign against " What is the "idsinformation campaign"? HIs surrender to the british? or the dubious role of both hindu mahasabha and RSS? wake and smell the coffee, you illogical irrational one :) don't blurt out "lies" and all that without substance and facts !:) "true. But to stress it could also be a form of response to intense persecution." What about 50 years after indpendece? Don't you see Yuvraj and Kaif chasing 325? don't you muslim actors and hindu actresses acting in ur films? don't you muslim and hindu neighbours intercating in dasily life? Its a full reflection of what is India. |
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mensa 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 354 of 539 ) "You maderchod," Talking to the mirror i suppose?:) you uncivlised, abusive idiots are so intolerant and irrational, yet you have the gall to keep bitching about muslims. shameless stinkin Hypocrites! "That is fine." Don't put words into my mouth simpleton. I want internal unity of ALL indians and i am contemptuous if hindutvas whose narrow minded irrational agenda which damages it. "Keep on appeasing the minorities" That;s a symptom of your bigotry " who have given every possible proof of their extra-terrotorial loyalties" What does one say about the dubious role of the right wing in india's sturggle agins the british?:) wonderful patriotism i see! you hindutvas are more bigots than patriots by and large |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 355 of 539 ) Sinbad, "A murderous theocracy in Pakistan is none of our business, even though they have displaced nearly 100% of their Hindu Sikh minorities. They have been exporting Jehad to us for last 50 years. That is fine." Yes, this is exactly the mindset of the marxist loving secular scums. Typical gandhian method of showing the other cheek to the aggressor! But again what the marxist media does not project is the Gandhi himself said his non violence approach SHOULD NOT be applied when dealing with external aggression! |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 356 of 539 ) The ban on "Me Nathuram Boltoy was lifted and drew packed houses in Maharashtra and in Gujrat. I do not know the current status. Was Veer Savarkar involved in the conspiracy, he was one of the accused but the Congressi government did not have the balls to convict him. There would have been savage reprisals in Bomay province, the Punjab and parts of UP and Central Provinces. |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 357 of 539 ) Nehru (the syphillitic chacha) himself has opined that minority aggression is a way of protecting their rights but majority aggression is dangerous for the country !!! This shithead himself preferred a rising islamic aggression in india (all for protecting their rights, you see)and opined nipping any traces of hindu aggression in the bud! Smacks of typical marxist shit, islam=good, hindu=bad; arabic&persian=good, sanskrit=bad. And this is the mantra of all marxist secular shitheads in their daily administerial duties! |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 358 of 539 ) "Eshwar Allah Tere Nam" said Gandhi brays the media ! Why does the same media not publish Gandhi's opinion about the bullying nature of muslims, about his thoughts and speeches on the evils of christian missionary activities in India, his total indifference to islamic rioting in India, his total dictatorial attitude when it came to hindus? Lifting selective quotations of a person has its own dangers. You judge or project somebody by not only what he said, but also what all he said and what all he did. All actions+all thoughts+all opinions make up the complete man. Synthesis of the overall personality is important, not analysis. Analysis is for putting all the pieces together, Synthesis is the picture of the puzzle that is pieced together. |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 359 of 539 ) Viramji, You should see the third Bhagat Singh made by Ajay Deoghan. Karambhrashta appears in the closing moments and is portrayed as a wimp. The British were desperate to have an accord with the Congress. Karambhrashta did not even mention the three great heroes . They were Sher-e Punjab Sardar Bhagat Singh Sher-e Uttar Pradesh Sukh Dev And the Maratha Tiger Shivram Rajguru. When the Chapekar brothers were hanged(four brothers! imagine) the Lokmanya could not sleep for a few days. Also know my brother that Sher-e Bengal, Butukeshwar Dutt died of his fast in Lahore Jail. He was 23 years old and the fourth of the Four Musketeers, the other three mentioned above.Karambhrashta did not die even once of his numerous fasts unto death. |
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mensa 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 360 of 539 ) You say this "Typical gandhian method of showing the other cheek to the aggressor! in the very next para ,you trip on your own toes by saying this " Gandhi himself said his non violence approach SHOULD NOT be applied when dealing with external aggression! " wah! "Yes, this is exactly the mindset of the marxist loving secular scums. " Nonsense. Many secuarists don't know the ABCD of marxism The communist are cinfined to certain pockets and to some intellectuals and historians...that's about it Secularist do not want 1 promotion of hate and prejudice which creates environment for disharmony 2 demonisation and dehumunisation of communities like muslims 3 misuse of religion for politcal ends 4 nationalism thru the prism of bigotry Just because secularists do not pander to anti muslim sentiments, these hindutva rail, abuse and moan no end The bottmline is bigots are not patriots! .The hindutva gang are bound to perish in the end like the hindu mahasabha !:) |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 361 of 539 ) Menstru, you maderchod Explain, you halkat,what right did Mohandas Karambhrashta had to represnt the Muslims in India. The Indian National Congress could only represent the Hindus as events clearly proved. Tomorrow I will quote from the Sardar himself. What was the Ace in the Hole the Sardar had in dealing with the coolies of the Muslim League. He had only one card which was the Ace of Spades.The ancient doctrine of RECIPROCITY. He would have told that porkeating Jinnah. You hurt Hindus and Sikhs and I will repatriate the believers in equal number. The Sardar in fact stated this in public. Shri Krishna has clearly stated With the crooks, you deal the same way, Arjun! |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 362 of 539 ) mensa, "in the very next para ,you trip on your own toes by saying this" I expected you to trip on these two statements of mine. Now do you understand why I consider Gandhi as not only not competent enuf (note that i never said fully incompetent, there is a difference) but also a highly confused and divided character? This is the man who made these two statements. At different points in time. If at all anybody trips, it is Gandhi and not me. You have an easier way out. You can say that I am crediting Gandhi with statements he never made by conjuring it up myself. |
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mensa 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 363 of 539 ) " his total indifference to islamic rioting in India" this is baseless ", his total dictatorial attitude when it came to hindus?" People supported him and listened to him out of their free will and affection . dictatorial .heh? Ofcourse, logically a leader has a right to espouse his ideas and try to mould people around it and follow them Listen to Zakaria who said gandhiji tried to take people with him as much as possible, though he will put his foot down at times and criticsed Jinnah for being a one man autocrat |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 364 of 539 ) Menstru, you traitor, Granted that you are intellectually not gifted,neither are you honest, but explain why this antipathy to Veer Savarkar. What did he do to arouse the ire of the jehadis and fellow-travellers. |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 365 of 539 ) Menstru, you maderchod, Any bastard like Mohandas Karambhrashta goes on a fast unto death at the drop of a hat is indulging in nothing but blackmail and thus in tyranny and hypocracy of the worst magnitude. You understand this much, you liar. |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 366 of 539 ) "in the very next para ,you trip on your own toes by saying this" This contradicting statement of Gandhi has been interpreted by Indians (Hindus in particular) in quite a practical manner. We put up with minority violence inside the country - we show the other cheek when muslims throw beef at ganesha processions, when they desecrate on hindu idols, when they create violence whenever hindu processions go thru' their streets etc., Now we will no longer put up with this pigshit and show the other cheek since we are able to clearly establish that the minority is cahoots with their brethen across the border. So, they are no longer purely internal. And when an islamic pakistan attacks, we DO NOT show the other cheek. But again whether Gandhi had this practical applicablity in mind when he made those apparently contradicting statements is open to debate. |
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mensa 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 367 of 539 ) "what right did Mohandas Karambhrashta had to represnt the Muslims in India" The congress represents all Indians by virtue of their support you obnoxiois piece of human garbage "You hurt Hindus and Sikhs and I will repatriate the believers in equal number." This is inhuman and uncivlised. Yes loss of any innocent life is traguc. In waht way is the life of a muslim less valuable than a sikh or hindu? Why should innocent muslims suffer for the bad deeds of some of them? Anyway what would you hate filled irrational hindutvas know |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 368 of 539 ) "People supported him and listened to him out of their free will and affection" So did the germans to Hitler! |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 369 of 539 ) Menstru, you testicleless wonder, Now can you enlighten us mere mortals, what solutions you have for dealing with a hostile minority which is totally blinded by the pernicious propaganda of a hare inspiring philosophy. How will solve the insurgency in Kashmir. Why can we not have a composite UCC. What about women's rights to minorities. How do we rebuild the temples destroyed by the flames of bigotry and terror. I know why filth like you hates Veer Savarkar because he expounded the doctrine of Shuddhikaram which means the victims of terror, corruption and fraud be brought back into the Hindu fold again. what is wrong with this you puke. |
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mensa 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 370 of 539 ) "but explain why this antipathy to Veer Savarkar." Do you leave you brain somewhere? I had shown how he begged for mercy from the british, did not takle any action against them since his release and insteadd trained his guns on the mussalmans. You conveninetly ignore all this unsavoury aspects with your blind adoration and yet you question me! What a total moron! Anyway enough with you.Or my standards are down |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 371 of 539 ) Menstru, Your standards cannot go down they were deep into the pits to start with. Your problem is that you have been caught with your pants down while taking a shit in public streets, then fuck off! |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 372 of 539 ) Mensa says: "Yes loss of any innocent life is traguc. In waht way is the life of a muslim less valuable than a sikh or hindu?" I will reframe this as 'In what way is the life of a hindu or sikh less valuable than a muslim? You secular bigots who condemn the loss of 1500 muslims in Gujarat, Why did you not condemn the 40000 hindus massacred in Kashmir by islamic terrorists? Applying your logic, then one muslim life=27 hindu lives. And when you can visit the tens of relief camps in Gujarat, why can you not visit even one of the hundreds of relief camps of kashmiri hindus? Why this hypocrisy and double standards when it comes to the lives of hindus? |
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mensa 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 373 of 539 ) "And when an islamic pakistan attacks, we DO NOT show the other cheek." The problem is you hindutvas often train your guns on all muslims for acts of some and call it a "slapping the other cheek". The perpetrators alone have to be punished. Innocents should not suffer. That's all Gandhi and other secularists espouse. The answer to your question is simple. Differing situations and contexts require appropriate responses. Against the british, we were not free and have to take initiatives for freedom. Against Pakistan, we were free and defending our new found freedom against an agressor and with legitimate military action by the indian army. In hindu muslim clashes, he does not want indivduals to take laws into their own hands on innocents. Gandhi himself admitted his thought process is dynamic and flexible with times as a result of his experiments. After all human beings evolve. |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 374 of 539 ) Vikramji, Hawkeyeji, The number of great patriots prior to the emergence of this comical duo is great. Perhaps the very first one was the extraordinary Parsi, Dadabhai Navroji who proved in great detail how the Raj was instrumental in impoverishing the land of India. Then there was this great intellect Gopal Krishna Gokhale. We already have talked about Bal Gangadhar Tilak.And guess whoo wrote the revolutionary book "The Independence Struggle of 1857" which was promptly banned by the English. You guessed it VEER Savarkar. Lala Lajpatrai,Netaji Subhash Chandra Bose,Vallabhbhai and Vitthal Bhai Patels.And do not forget Jayprakash Narayan who left the Congress in disgust. How many names can one quote.And there was one great Muslim Leader trusted by everybody. His name was The one and only: Khan Abdul Gafar Khan. He never lied, a true Sufi. And add the young revolutionaries, let us only name the firebrand Pandit Chandrashekhar(Azad). Pure RSS in his views. |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 375 of 539 ) Secular shits that analyse each and every comma and punctuation of Bal Thackareys's speech, why don't they visit the Delhi Mosque on a friday noon and report not more than a tenth of what is spoken by the Imam there? You will find that the speech will have enuf material to start a civil war (if not a world war!!!). It is secular shit heads that coin up convenient equations: Muslim=good, Hindu=bad Imam=good, Thackery=bad Allah=good, Ram=bad Babri=good, Ayodhya=bad And camoflauging these mindsets is no longer possible. |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 376 of 539 ) "The problem is you hindutvas often train your guns on all muslims for acts of some and call it a "slapping the other cheek". This is a stupid statement that smacks of your filthy marxist mindset. It is not a generalisation, but a diversion of facts. The hindu uprising started in the 90s. Show me one incident of hindu attacking a muslim before that. |
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mensa 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 377 of 539 ) "I will reframe this as 'In what way is the life of a hindu or sikh less valuable than a muslim?" Certainly NOT. "Why did you not condemn the 40000 hindus massacred in Kashmir by islamic terrorists?" This is what you hindutva types like to *believe* A kashmiri terrorist will be as unhappy with my views as you hindutvas I have argued with kashmiris and pakistan journalists in the news by email and did point about the pandits. You don't TELL me! " And when you can visit the tens of relief camps in Gujarat, why can you not visit even one of the hundreds of relief camps of kashmiri hindus? " Then wehre do reports about kashmiri pandits come from? dropped down from heaven? Onee thing i would say is this baseless perception is caused to extent by the more prominent focus on the sangh parivar. This is essentially because of their politcal strength in parliament and importance in indian politics Its just like how famous people get more prominent coverage than lesser ones Nothing more. There have ben umpteen articles written in our media regarding kashmir and some of them did |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 378 of 539 ) Menstru, If Indian Muslims did not break the country with the connivance of the British who did. It was the erstwhile Indian Muslims in Pakistan that destroyed the Hindu Sikh minority, five million lives.Not 1500, five million lives. Who but Indian Muslims support the terror in Kashmir Who but Indian Muslims helped the hijakers of IC814 Who but Indian Muslims throw stones at Hindu processions. Now they don't because they are frightened of Thakre and Singhal. Who claims that Koranic laws are above mammade laws.Are we crying about Manu Smriti? Who light crackers to celebrate the victory of Paapiland in Cricket. WHY! Who adheres blindly to the philosophy of hatred, terror and lust as if it is God given, Come on you puke, answer. |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 379 of 539 ) "Innocents should not suffer. That's all Gandhi and other secularists espouse. This is a cliche and even a 5 year old child can go around mouthing things like 'there should not be violence', 'there should be peace on earth'. We don't need leaders to say a thing which even a cow knows. The role of leaders is to say HOW TO ACHIEVE IT "The answer to your question is simple. Differing situations and contexts require appropriate responses." You got your brains mixed up again eh? IT IS YOU who told me that I have tripped. I am privy to this enlightened concept of different....., time you got it right. |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 380 of 539 ) Menstru,You lying bigot and maderchod, Relax now. I am again taking the dogs out for a long walk. Both of them are intellectually your superior, but more important the wonderful creatures are loyal and faithful. You will not know the meaning of the words loyal and faithful,because you are a filthy TRAITOR.You swine. |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 381 of 539 ) This is what you hindutva types like to *believe* WHERE are the secularists? Why do I not see a singly media report on the plight of thousands of kashmiri hindus in refugee camps? Why do I see only reports on Gujarati refugee camps? Where is Shekar Gupta, N. Ram, Arundhati Roy, Nirmala Deshpande, Mallika Sarabhai, Malini Parthasarathy.... When did any president of India visit a kashmiri refugee camp? Mensa, Action speaks louder than useless platitudes. |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 382 of 539 ) "I have argued with kashmiris and pakistan journalists in the news by email and did point about the pandits. You don't TELL me!" There you go personalising things again. The rules of this game of discussion is that I am representing the 'hindutvas' and you are representing the 'pseudo secularists'. Our individual thoughts and actions (noble and ignoble) matter less than that of the brethen in our respective camps! |
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mensa 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 383 of 539 ) "The hindu uprising started in the 90s. Show me one incident of hindu attacking a muslim before that." This is total rubbish. There have been several riots way before 90's. Go read VN Rai, former IG of BSF, who has shown muslims have traditonally suffered in communal riots both in casualties and police bias in a book don't go by your own arbitary assumptions |
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mensa 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 384 of 539 ) " Why do I not see a singly media report on the plight of thousands of kashmiri hindus in refugee camps? Why do I see only reports on Gujarati refugee camps?" So you blame secularists because you missed it? well i have seen them over the years LOOK for them and you will find!:) |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 385 of 539 ) "Then wehre do reports about kashmiri pandits come from? dropped down from heaven?" Another sham statement. When I say ‘media’, I am talking of the mainstream media that is accessible across country and the globe. The news (content and volume) in this mainstream media matters. Can you please check back and tell me if the coverage of kashmiri hindu killings and their large number of relief camps is ‘sufficient’ and informative enuf considering the wide coverage given to a few hundreds of muslims killed and fewer relief camps in Gujarat? Can a lay man (Indian and foreigner) who has access to these media reports make an informed judgement as to the relative enormity of both the situations? Flashing one statement for kashmiri hindus and 100 statements for gujarati muslims is totally criminal reporting, to say the least. |
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mensa 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 386 of 539 ) Its amazing how some idiots are so irrational and deluded to simply claim "victory" and arbitary call names when i have clearly shown factual material and argued logically. makes for good entertainmentthough! Anyway time to attend to other stuff niw.laters |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 387 of 539 ) "So you blame secularists because you missed it? well i have seen them over the years" Please answer 381 fully, instead of indulging in generalisations that is becoming typical of you. Where are these pseudo secularist bastards that i mentioned by their names? You or me talking about the plight of kashmiri pandits carries no weight compared to what these bastards do via their media! |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 388 of 539 ) "Its amazing how some idiots are so irrational and deluded to simply claim "victory" and arbitary call names when i have clearly shown factual material and argued logically. makes for good entertainmentthough! Anyway time to attend to other stuff niw.laters" Typical marxist way of chickening out!" Speaking of entertainment, you win the crown for 'Comedian of the day' for the following gems of thoughts! "i have clearly shown factual material" - LOL "i have argued logically" - LOL LOL LOL |
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mensa 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 389 of 539 ) "Flashing one statement for kashmiri hindus and 100 statements for gujarati muslims is totally criminal reporting, to say the least. " Because Gujarat is a more current event A few years and even some months of from now even Gujarat will be mentioned only now and then ,with current events hogging the headlines by and large. anyway laters |
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mensa 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 390 of 539 ) "Where are these pseudo secularist bastards that i mentioned by their names? " I have already stated that's only your jaundiced perception .I do undertsand the priorities of the media at various time, though they are not perfect either. "Typical marxist way of chickening out!" Am i supposed to spend my life on online forums? Have not i argued and debated most points so far??? Think watever you nonsense want...i don't care a f**** damn |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 391 of 539 ) "Because Gujarat is a more current event" Your most stupid statement by far. What you are not telling is that even Kashmir was not covered in this manner when IT WAS CURRENT. |
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Satnam 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 392 of 539 ) Mensa , What a pathetic liar you are. Gujrat is over and done with. Kashmir is ongoing. When you sent E mails to the Paki shits, did they honorably invite the Pandits and the Sikhs and the Dogras back to their homes right away. What is your full time profession,are you a shitpot or a pisspot or are yoy Anwar Sad's eight milimeter dick. |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 393 of 539 ) "I have already stated that's only your jaundiced perception .I do undertsand the priorities of the media at various time, though they are not perfect either" Pure unadultrated pig shit. Detailed reporting of 1000 muslims lives lost in gujarat is a priority to summary mention of 40000 hindu lives lost in Kashmir. Not only is this not perfect, it is a gross crime! Words like bigotry and hypocrisy would sound like compliments for indicating this criminal activity of the indian media. And you have not said why these media bastards did not visit the kashmiri relief camps and pushing lies like my jaudiced view is indicative of 'chickening out' |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 394 of 539 ) "Think watever you nonsense want...i don't care a f**** damn" And I have not yet used one slur against you! Foul mouthing is the first sign of the desperation of a pseudo secularist. Jumping up and down comes next. Breaking the PC next. Going to the nearest mosque to contact some bhai log for contracting a supari comes next. Then going to the friendly secularist media channel and newspaper and complaining about the communal statements made by me. Come off it man (or woman !!!) and indulge in something more respectable. |
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Satnam 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 395 of 539 ) Mensa, Send us copies of your E mails to the jehadis. The world was indeed lucky that FDR did not say our war is with Hitler and his cronies only and not with German people!!!!!!!!!! That Haramkhor Mushirul Hasan is telling America that her war is with bin Laden and Saddam Hussain,innocents should not suffer. Only ganduji will buy this shit. |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 396 of 539 ) What mushirul hasan does not say is that 'innocents' shelter this bin laden. So, you cant get to them unless you make pork pie out of these 'innocents'. And what is the definition of 'innocent'? One who follows the quran diligently and protects fellow muslims ! (even if that fellow muslim is bin laden) |
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Satnam 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 397 of 539 ) Sinbadji, Vikramji, Sat Shri Akal, Bhai loka, You guys did a great job, just great. 10 out of 10 for both of you. I have been reading this exchange for a while, beautiful. Sinbadji, you made a small error though, not material but there was one mistake.Don't worry. I have done some reading in the matter especially the freedom sruggle. I wish you guys had added Jalianwala Bagh and its impact on setting the destruction of the British rule. |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 398 of 539 ) Satnam, Sat Sri Akal Yes, I agree we missed out on Jalianwala Bagh, which was a genocide and one of the main engines that propelled the people's emotions. Maybe it missed out mention becoz the discussion was personality specific and was tied down to salient personalities. But make no mistake, every great soul massacred in Jalianwala Bagh deserves the same respect that we give to all other figures freedom struggle personalities. |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 399 of 539 ) Satnamji, Yes, I made that mistake about Naukhali, I should have said East India instead.The point is the real holocaust occurred in West Punjab, and Karambhrashta did nothing about it. You should have joined the discussion. |
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mensa 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 400 of 539 ) "What you are not telling is that even Kashmir was not covered in this manner when IT WAS CURRENT." Kashmir has had so many cover stories and articles about it! i still remember the endless never ending series on them when trouble broke out One thing is Kashmir has many dimensions apart from cleansing of pandits. Your comments on media personalities not visiting camps ss quite arbitary. how would you KNOW? How ddi i see reports on them at times? without them visiting it? You want to believe something. When someone does not share that perception, its a "lie"? That's not how it works mister. At the very least secularists don't have to be told by those who justify hate and even killings. What do they have to be guilty about? That's plain outrageous "Foul mouthing is the first sign of the desperation of a pseudo secularist. Jumping " HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH! just think for a moment about the sort of virulent,gutter language used by your hindutva comrades Its such a turn off that it makes one puke and feel so disgusted. I rarely see such uncivlised scum anywhere even online. What has been done to drive to me to "desperation"???? :) I don't spread hate, prejudice and insecuirty aganst communities. There is no moral case for me to be squeamy about I had laid out my case for Gandhiji about why he had to be complelled to accept partition and against the 'patriotic' credentials of the sangh ,savarkar with factual material and logically consistent arguments What i have got mostly in return apart from gutter abuse and the usual sangh crap(not one of which i am not unfamiliar with) ? talk about delusion another things "LOLS" do not make up for hard info and substance.remember that !:) bfn |
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mensa 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 401 of 539 ) I missed the point regarding "innnocents" and "country" There is a difference between Indian army or US army sanctioned by reprentative govts and informed policy makers for a WAR.....and a group of hate filled mobs, taking law into their own hands The army,police , the secret agencies have legitimate authotity. The mob DON'T Also conflict between hindu mobs and muslims mobs is only limited to some.The tolerant hindus and muslims have no part of it Unlike nationalistic wars, where patriotism prevails among large sections and legitimate for a just cause . The self appointed lynching ,obs have no moral case or legitmate authority.That's anarchy. Hence the difference As for blaming all muslims , probably osme of you may want to goto Jail for whatever the gujarat rioters did!:) then you would know better about this logic clubbing everyone with disregard to indivdual differences. no sensible justifies mass murder anyway,have to do something else |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 402 of 539 ) mensa: "What does one say about the dubious role of the right wing in india's sturggle agins the british?:) wonderful patriotism i see!" Care to expound a little more, you lying marxist piece of human garbage. Let us see now, Nehru was fucking edwina and allowed Mountbattent o go through with the partition that killed 3 million Indians, and you blame the Indian right wing (if there WAS such a thing in the public eye back then). The right wing were thrown into gaol with the help of their fellow "patriots" who did not want to piss off white men, just like the marxist shitheads do nowadays for a couple of thousand dollars and a plane ticket. Of course, back then, marxist mercenary loyalties to white people were a lot less expensive... Also, Let us not forget you are the same imbecile whose logic equates the KKK to the VHP just because they are both right wing. A "mensa" shithead who terms a hawk as an identical creature to a chicken because they are both birds. |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 403 of 539 ) mensa: "One thing is Kashmir has many dimensions apart from cleansing of pandits. Your comments on media personalities not visiting camps ss quite arbitary. how would you KNOW?" The lack of articles on their plight; a dozen articles in ten years, compared to the hundreds of articles on the kashmiri muslim bigots who threw these people out of their homes would be an indicator, would it not? You dumb, lying piece of shit. |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 404 of 539 ) mensa: "How ddi i see reports on them at times? without them visiting it?" Just because you saw a report means that these marxist shitheads in the times reported FAIRLY on their plight, eh?? Clearly, you are one of the cretinous, self-prclaimed, genius wannabes I have come across. "You want to believe something. When someone does not share that perception, its a "lie"?" Well, that is convenient explanation for all the bare-faced lying by marxist shitheads. Under what kind of "perception" can you claim that the VHP is identical to the KKK?? Do you see them lynching mobs on a daily basis (this is what the KKK did). The VHP cannot even get a ram temple in Ayodhya without THEM being called "bigots", when it is the muslim motherfuckers WHO NEVER USED THAT MOSQUE, who refuse to let go of that property BECAUSE it is against islamic beliefs to have temple built over a mosque. NEVER MIND THAT THE MOSQUE WAS BUILT OVER A TEMPLE IN THE FIRST PLACE. The KKK successfully kept the black frightened for many decades with weekly lynchings of any black who dared to speak up. Muslim shitheads speak out without fear of repercussions from the VHP. What does that tell you, asshole? |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 405 of 539 ) mensa: "Also conflict between hindu mobs and muslims mobs is only limited to some.The tolerant hindus and muslims have no part of it" Wow, what a profound insight!!! Well, except for the minor part about the "mythical" tolerant muslim which must be in the same category as mythical, truly secular (as opposed to pseudo-secular) marxist shitheads. |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 406 of 539 ) mensa: "another things "LOLS" do not make up for hard info and substance.remember that !:) " This marxists shithead indulges in the usual spit and run tactics and dares to call it "hard info" and "facts". I dont see what regular folks can do with this sort of liars and cheats except laught out loud at them in sheer contempt. |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 407 of 539 ) Mensa, Like Karapall said you are indulging only in spit and run activities! Why don't you say stay and say something - something new! Instead of the usual revanchist, fascist hindu, tolerant muslim, bigots, VHP, everybody should be tolerant and peaceful, boooohooooo....... |
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BK 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 408 of 539 ) Discussing history is good to learn out mistakes but leaving in history dosen't make any sense. We have to look forward and ask our seleves what we see as future of India and its status in global village. This will require lot of paradigm shift in the mindset. Let it be secularism , human rights etc. When Capitalism, Christianity and Islam are pusing whole world to go in particular direction there is no reson why we give direction to India and her future (not the world as doen by other but India only) on the vast knoweldge of hinduism we have. In this process frist step is not only to protect hinduism from the external as well as internal invasion but also to make sure people in India irrespective of religion learn and understand hinduism. Because that is the only tolerent , secular culture with vast knowledge for human kind. |
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BK 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 409 of 539 ) Implementation of these vast knowledege to me modified to suit present time requirements. What kind of secularism we want? We been taught for last 50 years that we are secular country. And what is the reality. There are not only riots but also mass conversion based on miracles, money etc. which is truely against secular spirit. |
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BK 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 410 of 539 ) We need to set our priorities right. It might appear that poverty , education ,health, water and electricty, transportation, population control etc. are our main priorities. No doubt these should be the main priorities but invasion of Islam , western world (in terms of capitalism which works for them only) and christianity are to be addressed once for all. There seems to be no alternative to capitalism in terms of economic system but we must have Indian capitalism vs western capitalism which will not only protect our economic interests but our naturalresources, our indepence etc. |
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mensa 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 411 of 539 ) "Like Karapall said you are indulging only in spit and run activities! " You too are talking unadulterated nonsense now I would generally a sane reasonable person will acknowledge the facts and logic i have put out. Infact the more reasonable hindutvas do. Unfortunately the abusive posters here are totally abusive,irrational and down right, top class cretins who have left theirr brains and decency elsewhere These morons cannot come up with adequate susbtance and yet talk as if they make great points.I rarely see such brainless chacracters in my life You know my salient points, dont you? Either refute my facts with hard evidence or just SHUT UP! don't claim victory simply by MOUTH and by assertions without evidence Sangh hate, irrtaionality,abuse,name calling won't cut it ,mister! I perfectly know about my case Andd dont tell me how i am to live my life! My job is NOT to spend time here on line forums and certainly notin a in a company of abusive idiots. there are many more decent more rational and knowledgeable people iknow elsewhere.why should i waste valuable time with foul mouthed irrtaional brainless filthy bigots here? At the same time, it should not stop me from expository material of the hindu rightwing Reasonable debaters are always welcome and i can debate with them within my constraints. I have debated with extremely knowledeable indians and foreigners including world war 2 veterans. These gutteridiots here are NOT goin to cause me sleepless nights? to one moron, did the serbs and Nazis have the same ideology or identical methods? or for that matter pol pots of cambodia? does that make the serbs or cambodians any less evil? If VHP does not lynch muslims more often, it because they lack similar propituous social and politcal conditions in India Practical realities. For instance Hitler needed the cover of war to carry out his extermination program. There was no full scale extermination from 33 to 39 though there was persecution with nuremberg laws ,gestapo and some attacks like kristallnacht(any different from what the sangh does?) . What about the VHP boycott pamphlet in gujarat????? very un-KKK like isn't it? ALl of them including sangh parivar are hate filled bigots who thrive on promoting hostility and hate against targetted communities and endanger social relations. The similarity is crystal clear except to some blind worshippers |
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BK 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 412 of 539 ) There are more wars today on the name of democracy and freedom. Basically who is bringing wars in the world? Unfortunetly western and specially US economy is based on war. That is why there got to beone comon enemy of the west. Communism provided that for last fifty years and now its turn of Islam. Hindu are being projected as fanatic, uncivilised etc.etc so that once the Islam is defeted Hindus can be taken over as enemy (If not China). The fact is there is huge difference in Hinduism and Islam/communism etc. |
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BK 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 413 of 539 ) Many people are brain wahsed by western countires and they themselves believ that Hinduism is fanatic and dare to copmare with nazis. Western economic interest and chritianity gose hand in hand to spread imperialism and ewconomic control over more people for the western corporations. Peopple whio get brain washed even believe that they are true intelectuals and champions of humanrights, secularism, democracy and freedom. they indulge in criticism of Hinduism without even understanding bit of it. |
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BK 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 414 of 539 ) Hinduism teaches that all souls are part of supresoul Paramatma thus all are equal and have one divine bond. There is no question of hatred. Hinduism never criticise any other religion despite people including so called intelecual hindus through so much venom. Hinduism in parctice and survived for so many thousand of yers because its based on eternal truth unlike other religions which they consider people of other religion either as Kafir or can not have salvation irrespective of wether person of other religion is good person bu heart and by deeds. This is fundamentally wrong that is why Hinduism is more secular. |
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BK 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 415 of 539 ) Hinduism is not only secula as explaiend above but provides full freedom to path one prefers to follow. Hinduism allows you to follow any path whcih suits individual personality to get more close to God. YOu can be muslim, christian or any one else and still practice hinduism without changing your religion or throwing venom at your religion. |
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BK 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 416 of 539 ) Unfortunetly intodays world definition of democracy, freedom and secularim is defined by western countries specially America , these are the same contries who not only finsihed red-indian race in the north America but also on the name of crusade and freedom have fought moere wars in the world than any other nations. These are the same countries which supplied weopns to sadam husain, Taleban etc. these are the same contries who criticise secularism and caste system of india and still believ that "White is right". |
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BK 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 417 of 539 ) Some people in India consider themselves champion of Secularisnm by criticising Hinduism which they never attemt to understand. They are totaly brain washed bu western media and education. Lowest level of person's moral is to criticise own culture without understanding it. |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 418 of 539 ) Mensa says: "You too are talking unadulterated nonsense now These morons cannot come up with adequate susbtance and yet talk as if they make great points.I rarely see such brainless chacracters in my life You know my salient points, dont you? Either refute my facts with hard evidence or just SHUT UP! don't claim victory simply by MOUTH and by assertions without evidence" YYAAAAAWWWWWWWWNNNNN ! |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 419 of 539 ) Menstru,You pigshit eater, I have not seen any answers to my points raised in #381. Also, you filthy swine, show me the sections in the Koran that preach tolerance towards other faiths, you halkat.I really want to see these.Also show me sections that preach humanity and love. Come on maderchot, don't run away. Now about Unicorn, do you know what a unicorn is. It is a mythical beast that looks like your father but with a horn on his head before the gods made your abu into a pig. Now show me the other mythical beast, the tolerant believer!I need to see 100 at least and by deed. You are a sad piece of excrement!Have you noticed how your grammar is falling apart under pressure, not to speak of coherence and logic. |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 420 of 539 ) "When Capitalism, Christianity and Islam are pusing whole world to go in particular direction there is no reson why we give direction to India and her future " Exactly BK 418. But on one hand you say Hinduism does not believe in converting, on theother hand you say you should go out and convert. This complete bankruptcy of ideals, principles and morals under Braminical Hinduism is the reason why it is and will always be reactive, destructive and circular |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 421 of 539 ) Mensa: You have posted some brilliant factual messages eg. 262, 263. and the other responses. The Sanghi technique here is to badger with brainless, abrasive posts till you also respond at their level and the points are obfuscated. If you want to continue the good work, I would suggest you simply repost your factual message like the one on the cowardly Sawarkar. Brilliant though! |
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mensa 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 422 of 539 ) BK, There is a difference between theory and practise. A tolerant theory does not automatically make for tolerant practise becuase intrepretatns can differ and customs does not exactly follow what is prescribed. Human beings are entirely a different story Its hindutva ,their intolerant culture and hindu nationalism which requires condemnation. Certainly Hinduism and tolerant hindus should not be included there.Though a few liberals in their misguided zeal unfortunately chose the wrong direction At the sametime, i hope you are not a apologist for the intolerant ones.Self pity is no good either "The Sanghi technique here is to badger with brainless, abrasive posts till you also respond at their level and the points are obfuscated." Nice to see you, Gandalf and thanx ! Its plain obvious !:) These intolerant ones don't realise they are exactly showing why hindutva deserves to be dealt with and why the english press goes after them To be fair, i have argued with sangh supporters for over a decade now. Unfortunately some are so hate filled that it beggars belief Others elsehwere are relatively more reasonable ,though annoying.But what i see here makes them look benign! phew! Sure.i can't see myself keep on talking "you moron, you cretins" post by post. I don't really like it at all "I would suggest you simply repost your factual message like the one on the cowardly Sawarkar." The two right wing orgs RSS and hindu mahasabha were both chickens by and large against the british. They did little Yet these einsteins criticise Gandhi and Nehru, ignoring the blatant terrible record of their "own fit for nothing orgs" and fanatical idiots like godse...wat logic! Anyway let these jerks not spoil my diwali !:) happy diwali to ALL regardless I will take leave with a few gems from Golwalkar now and maybe back in a few days when time permits !:) To one abusive fool,i am no theological expert.Here is the most famous "softer" quranic verse "unto you your religion, unto me mine". |
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mensa 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 423 of 539 ) This is a superb "golwalkar" gem !:) "German race pride has now become the topic of the day. To keep up the purity of the race and its culture, Germany shocked the world by her purging the country of the Semitic races—the Jews. Race pride at its highest has been manifested here. Germany has also shown how well-nigh impossible it is for races and cultures, having differences going to the root, to be assimilated into one united whole—a good lesson for us in Hindusthan (i.e., the land of Hindus) to learn and profit by." ATTENTION OUTLOOK: Mr.Balbir Punj tried to twist it as usual in his piece. But it can be easily exposed |
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mensa 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 424 of 539 ) A superb scientific discovery that Arctic zone was once part of bihar and Orissa !:) The problem was to maintain indigenous aryan origins as well as to reconcile with their hero Lokmanya's arctic theory !:) "...that then it moved northeast and then by a sometimes westerly, sometimes northward movement, it came to its present position. If this be so, did we leave the Arctic Zone and come to Hindusthan or were we all along here and the Arctic Zone left us and moved away north- wards in its zigzag march? We do not hesitate in affirming that had this fact been discovered during the lifetime of Lok. Tilak, he would unhesitatingly have propounded the proposition that 'The Arctic Home of the Vedas' was verily in Hindusthan itself and that it was not the Hindus who migrated to that land but the Arctic Zone which emigrated and left the Hindus in Hindusthan" (Golwalkar,1939, p. 8). " ROFL! with this, BFN |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 425 of 539 ) Menstruji, You are intellectually even weaker than I thought. "Unto you your religion and unto me mine" Are you seriously suggesting that these two lines, or one as the case may be,cancel the whole Koran. Then why are you jehadis reluctant to alter even one iota in this book. The fact is this book was written over 23 years and this highly misleading verse was written when the movement was weak and in its infancy. The true character was revealed in literally hundreds of verses written later.The entire book is replete with what believers should do to unbelievers who are Najis and what Allah is going to do to them later on.Read, if you can. You have not answered #381 or #419 |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 426 of 539 ) Before you pick up on Bal Gangadhar Tilak, why don't you take a look at how the Aryan Invasion theory was cooked out of thin air and how the marxist historians are refusing to consider the archealogical discoveries of the harappan civilisation that refute the aryan invastion story fully? |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 427 of 539 ) Vikramji, Jai Ram Ji Ki, I am ,unfortunately, a person with limited patience for congenital idiots like Gandalf Khanji and Menstruation Dischargeji.They are also deeply nasty people. Anyway, have a look at the world map and see how the continents have been torn asunder. It is a valid theory that there was one land masss that was contiguous but some mighty force torn it asunder like the PRALAY in Matsyawatar.But this is too much for these terminal morons and halkats. In any event if God could create the world in six days, anything is possible in seven days!!!! |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 428 of 539 ) "the future, safety, security, rights and privileges of the minority community are dependent in a large measure on the goodwill, understanding, and sympathy of the majority community, namely the Hindus". "any amount of constitutional safeguards or conferring legal rights will not help the safety or promote the prosperity of the minority community, if they lose the goodwill and sympathy of the majority community. If the leadership of the minority community does not realise it a heavy price will have to be paid." Can the people here (including the 'enlightened' ones with a good IQ score!) say whose gems are the above statements? |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 429 of 539 ) These were the conclusions of a judicial enquiry set up by the TN govt. in 1985 under Justice Venugopal, who inquired into the Mandaikkadu Hindu-Christian riots. The commission found, "When a minority community becomes majority in a 'pocket' or an area, it tends to become militant, defiant and aggressive in that area. This creates a law and order problem.gives rise to resentment, distrust and suspicion in the majority community and leads to communal tension." Justice Venugopal says: "As conversions by faith and conviction are very rare, bait of some kind is offered to convert a Hindu. The bait may take the form of claim to superiority in religion., To make such claim, one must denounce, reprobate, ridicule, misinterpret Hindu religion. Vile attacks on Hindu religion, its Gods and deities constitute an important and integral plan.sometimes indulged in, in a deliberate and concerted manner." |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 430 of 539 ) Vikramji, Helena Petrowna Blavatsky, possible the first Western Indologist also believed that many Aryan tribes migrated out of India rather than enter India from the West. That many European lanuages are now known as Indo European says a lot. Eg, Sarpa Sepent Dant Dental Dentist etc Ashwa Horse Mrityu Morte, Mortal etc Janma Genesis The list is endless! Pitru Father Matru Mater Mother |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 431 of 539 ) Vikramji, Re #428 Absolutely brilliant. And yet it is plain commonsense! |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 432 of 539 ) And when hindus mouth the same thing what a SC Justice concluded in his 1985 judicial enquiry, they are called 'hindu extremists', 'fascists', 'communalists','revanchists', 'hindu bigots'....... |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 433 of 539 ) sinbad, I have mentioned earlier that the christian missionary invented 'Aryan invasion theory' forms one of the foundations of marxist ideology in india. The day a marxist accepts the factual archeaological findings of the harappan civilisation and disowns the aryan invasion theory, he shall be ex-communicated from his marxist religion. |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 434 of 539 ) Above merely exposes their bigoted mindset or guilt in legal language. |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 435 of 539 ) Let us be brutally honest and objective! That there is a nexus between india and the Northwest is crystal clear, the Swastik for example.The nexus is some 8000 years old. It only suited the European rulers to tell the natives that civilization came from the North! This was politically convenient and expeditious. As we learn more, we will be able to offer more proofs. But today, the Concepts of Karma and Punrjanma, which the educated AngloAmericans accept,are definitively treated as of Indian origin. So is the decimal system. Dashamlava Decimal!!!!! |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 436 of 539 ) To All, Pls note that Menstra is yet to answer the basic points in #381 and #419 as well as my rebuttal.All we got was one lie. |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 437 of 539 ) There was never any Aryan invasion of India and the marxist bastards will not allow revising our textbooks in the light of sound archealogican and scientific findings, coz that will cost their existence and career. I will quote B.R. Ambedkar : “The theory of [Aryan] invasion is an invention. It is a perversion of scientific investigation, it is not allowed to evolve out of facts.... It falls to the ground at every point.” All available evidence shows that India’s civilization, whose roots go back even before the Harappan civilization, grew on Indian soil. As the U.S. archaeologist Jim Shaffer puts it : Current archaeological data do not support the existence of an Indo-Aryan or European invasion into South Asia any time in the pre- or protohistoric periods. Instead, it is possible to document archaeologically a series of cultural changes reflecting indigenous cultural developments from prehistoric to historic periods. |
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BK 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 438 of 539 ) "Exactly BK 418. But on one hand you say Hinduism does not believe in converting, on theother hand you say you should go out and convert. " First of all I did not say to convert people because I believe it dose not serve any purpose but creates more hatred and put converted people into guilt which a person can not come out. When I said to teach hinduism , its not conversion cause you can learn hindu and practice what ever suits you without getting converted. What is wrong in it? Hindu by teaching must respect all and all paths leading to God. Hinduism dose not say that there is only one way to GOd which is common sense. Karma, Knowledge and devotion and combination of three can be done without following any particular religion. This only Hindus can understand as other religion dose not allow such freedom. |
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BK 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 439 of 539 ) To #422: All theories unless put in practice is useless same applies to all religions not only to Hinduism. Unfortunetly theory of "Kafir" and "Salvation only thru Jesus" is creating hatred and divide between human being in the entire world this theory and practice both are worse than any good theory not put in practice. If you understand Hindutva it by nature is not intolerent. I see no problem in hinduism as national identiry. You can not give up your identity and culture to satisfy minority or the western world. If every one is taught hinduism everyone in India irrespective of religion will be proud of their cultural identity but problem is Muslim and Christianity are non-secular and Bigot by nature so they can not accept this idea. When Hinduism is attacked some people come forward to protect it. Why criticise whole religion/culture? If majority are tolerent than whats the problem? We know Islam and Christianity by their books are not tolerent towards other religion why people do not have problem? If minority of Hindus become vocal to protect hinduism whole hinduism is bad and majority og Muslims and chritians are intolerent towards other religion thas perfectly OK? |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 440 of 539 ) mensa: "I would generally a sane reasonable person will acknowledge the facts and logic i have put out." In that case, please do mark these items as "facts" because from where other people stand there is just a lot of spit running down your chin. As for your demands that your "facts" be refuted, I am sure I and other posters will galdly oblige as soon as you trot out your "facts". We will then analyze your "facts" and give it a thorough rectal examination right out here in public. I am sure your mensa mind can handle all this and more. |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 441 of 539 ) Aryan Invasion theory was propounded by the racist shithead Max Mueller bhavan, who could not imagine brownies like us Indians getting civilized without some white people to hold their hands. Aryan Invasion theory has been throroughly stripped and given a full-body, cavity search by many academics (not of the pseudo-secular, JNU shithead kind, of course). |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 442 of 539 ) mensa: "There is a difference between theory and practise. A tolerant theory does not automatically make for tolerant practise becuase intrepretatns can differ and customs does not exactly follow what is prescribed." Note this pseudo-secular marxist shithead giving excuses for islamic jihadism in India. "Human beings are entirely a different story" Huh? "Its hindutva ,their intolerant culture and hindu nationalism which requires condemnation." Note how this pseudo-secular piece of shit now condemns hinduism forcefully, RIGHT AFTER HE PROVIDED AN EXCUSE FOR MUSLIM JIHADIS!!! What a despicable piece of bigoted, anti-hindu shit this asshole is!! Well, at least he is exposing himself in public for our benefit.. "Certainly Hinduism and tolerant hindus should not be included there.Though a few liberals in their misguided zeal unfortunately chose the wrong direction" Now, this piece of marxist human garbage is denouncing hindus who are "misguided" in not supporting his pseudo-secular nonsense. Of course, why should hindus believe in his pseudo-secular nonsense?? Because this turd is a mensa turd, of course. |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 443 of 539 ) mensa: "A superb scientific discovery that Arctic zone was once part of bihar and Orissa !:) " All of earth was one land mass a looong time ago, dumbass. And there you are absolutely clueless. Antactica and India existed in the same land mass as India. Here is one link, but this theory is extremely well known and accepted as part of extremely plausible scientific theories. http://www.gaiaguys.net/gondwana.htm Ever heard of Gondwanaland, you brainless piece of shit? Did you get to join mensa before you became senile, or did your daddy buy it for you for fifty rupees?? |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 444 of 539 ) Actually, Gondwanaland was after pangaea broke apart into two masses. Pangaea WAS A SINGLE LAND MASS out of which all of today's continents were formed. Go read about it in your local library, mensa. You might actually become a mensa at some point. |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 445 of 539 ) Menstruation Khanji,Son of Pig Khanji out of Whore Banuji, I reckon that your father must be the most intelligent, good looking and cleanest of the above trio.Say Salaam Alyekum to him. Aren't you lucky, when hungry , your mother and you can simply eat your respected father. Anyway, a humble reminder that I am still awaiting answers to #381 and #419 in addition to my questions on your Koran. Pls oblige, otherwise put your tail between your legs and grunt away.Feel free to migrate to Paapiland where you can enjoy a Composite Culture under a Talibani Prime Minister! |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 446 of 539 ) Karapallji, Vikramji, And don't forget that a countless number of invaluable books must have been burnt as the barbarian invaders from Turkey( Turks/Moguls/Mongrels?) and Afghanistan ravaged the land of Bharatvarsha. What kind of historical, scientific knowledge must have fallen prey to the frenzy of these evil and lusty fiends. How much heritage must have been consumed by flames of frenzy and utter ignorance. Much information about the Aryans and their early history has simply vanished for ever. This is our COMPOSITE CULTURE. Let us kick Abul Kalam Jehadi's ghost in the face! And honor our composite culture. |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 447 of 539 ) sinbadji: "Let us kick Abul Kalam Jehadi's ghost in the face! " You kick his face in, and I will turn that jihadi shit abul kalam azad's nuts to a bloody red pulp. Hold on while I put on my hobnailed, hiking boots. Makes kicking jihadi shitheads (metaphorically speaking) a whole lot more convenient. |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 448 of 539 ) BK: , its not conversion cause you can learn hindu and practice what ever suits you without getting converted. " Interesting point but as usual completely false. This has been the refrain of all our Hindu Conversion engines, Pondi Mata, Amrita, maharish, sai, Iskon etc. But you will find that once people accept thse sects they have to worship Ram and Krishan (look at the maharishi currency). I for one dont think that there is anything wrong with it. But cant understand why Sanghi lie about it. Hinduism is as chauvanistic as other religions. The sanghi tripe on acceptance of all religions is fine but the fine print says that all religions are equal but Hinduism is more equal than others. THat is the truth, why are you ashamed of it? |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 449 of 539 ) Gandalf, you lie you bastard and you know it. ISKCON, Mata Amrita or any other hindu orgn. does not tell you to burn quran or bible or to throw the cross into the toilet to a christian or muslim fella who evinces interest in hinduism. Whereas a fucking missionary does that - he instructs the converted christians to first throw out the Gita and past customs. Bastard, there is a diff. between telling you to worship Ram (the hindu way) and telling you to worship Jesus ALONE (the christian way). Of course, your dickless self does not know the diff. do you? And bastard, Islam and christianity are exclusivist paths that tell you that there is no other way to God except thru' Mohammad or Jesus respectively. Whereas, hinduism tells that are several ways to reach God and hinduism is but one way. So, no way it is chauvinistic, you zero dick. |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 450 of 539 ) And coming to Sai Baba, I trust you missionary bastards and jihadi pigs not to have noticed that his logo containes Om, Cross and the Cresent. And seeing that your past sins are out in the open, you bastards now adopt a path of moral equivalency. Gandu khan also says- "The sanghi tripe on acceptance of all religions is fine but the fine print says that all religions are equal but Hinduism is more equal than others." Bastard, you are fucking into your own arse again. This is what your pedophilic pope says, not the sanghis. You pope never accepts the existence of a religion called hinduism, leave alone treating it as equal. And you jingoistic bastards turn back and cry foul at the victim and call him chauvinistic for not licking the arse of a pedophilic pope. And bastard you have never answered, in this background, the point that none of the hindu organisation wants anybody to throw away his/her old cult to become a hindu. You gloss over it with typical crap that it is false. |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 451 of 539 ) Vikram: Hope you had a fine Diwali! The point remians the same, you cant be here and there. Sanghi Hinduism has always been alternating between a 'way of life' and a hardcore religion depending on the situation. The idea of morphing to encompass and unfortunately strangle every idea has been great when it was the only structured religion. Now with the adven of other ideas, I believe it has to take a stand. Its earlier amorphousness is now being perceived as sliminess. |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 452 of 539 ) Coming to Saibaba (wasnt he in some scandal recently) his sign should be the $ |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 453 of 539 ) gandalf khan, Hope you had an 'explosive' diwali! There you go again uttering meaningless mumbo jumbo, yammy, yammy, yam, yakety yakety yakki, blah blah blah..... I was missing it anyway. And good wishes for a happy Ramadhan! |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 454 of 539 ) Thanks for your profound post 99.. BTW do you guys have other positions too? BK: interesting post on Hinduism allowing multiple paths to God. If so, why are you agains a person who choses christianity, Islam, Atheism as his path. Your Hinduism is allows all religions but one should not convert :-) You say all paths are equal, then how can I choose? To choose a path, I have to find which is the better one. You would probably say that your goat is with people who abuse other religions. Agreed. But I dont see anything wrong with a person saying his religion is better than mine. Why do you??? |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 455 of 539 ) The disastrous effects of forced and fraudelent conversions are too obvious to be enumerated again and again. The sublime beauty of Vedantic beliefs lie in the fact that virtually all of it is non-denominational. Such as the Atma Parmatma relationship, Punrjanma concept,desire for Mukti ad Mukti via: Dnyanmarg or self realization through meditation or tapasya. Karmayog or by clean and selfless action Bhaktimarg or by say complete faith in Ramnaam or Harinaam.But some may argue that Bhakti comes into play to cleans the mind of desire and evil thoughts and thus leads to selfless action. What is wrong with this,if you follow the right path, which you are not, even you may reach mukti. This does not require you to submit to an arbitrary set of dogmas that almost invariably spread hatred and violence. Do you understand anything. Note that Adya Shankaracharya was not from the North. |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 456 of 539 ) Gandalf: "The point remians the same, you cant be here and there. Sanghi Hinduism has always been alternating between a 'way of life' and a hardcore religion depending on the situation." The sanghis claim that Hindutva is a way of life, and hinduism is a religion. So get the terminology straight before you indulge in vicious demagoguery, you devious fuk. |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 457 of 539 ) Gandalf: "Your Hinduism is allows all religions but one should not convert " Since you are clearly the pope's lover boy, let me explain a few things that the old man might have left out when he was whispering sweet nothings in your ears last night. Even the VHP has openly stated that it has no bones to pick with muslims who dont indulge in jihad and christians who do not insult hinduism and resort to creating illwill against hindus in order to facilitate conversion. You, as a devious bible-thumping piece of shit, refuse to acknowledge that christians who use trickery and fraud to spread christianity are not doing any good to the social and communal fabric of India. The constitution protects any person who chooses to join another faith, but you bring in american money and spread it around to people, as an enticement to join christianity, it is NO BETTER THAN talibani jihadis coming to India spreading money to convert Indians to talibanis. Is that what we want in India? |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 458 of 539 ) sinbad: "Do you understand anything. Note that Adya Shankaracharya was not from the North" sinbadji, it would be too much to expect this bible-thumping, pseudo-secular shithead to understand the importance of Adi Shankarcharya in hindu religious history, or the fact that he was from what is now Kerala. |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 459 of 539 ) Karapall, "You, as a devious bible-thumping piece of shit, refuse to acknowledge that christians who use trickery and fraud to spread christianity are ......" Note that these turds are now in the project of JUSTIFYING these acts of tricker, fraud and bribery as a legitimate commercial activity and no longer deny it. And they also claim that since hinduism has janam kundli matching, marriage brokering, sai baba and amritanada mayi attract lot of money, christianity is also justified in money laundering for conversion purposes !!! If you can't convince, confuse - seems to be the latest indulgence of these bastards! |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 460 of 539 ) "Note that Adya Shankaracharya was not from the North" Wow! what a discovery. And again you fuck into your own arse again boy. So, what? A South Indian re-establishing the glory of hinduism proves exactly what we sanghis have been harping on all the while. That vedic hinduism (including brahminism) was as much prevelant in south india as in north india. And a South indian re-established the vedic practices in north India (3 of his mutts establised were in north india in addition to establishing rituals in all major temples in north india including Kashmir). All this proves that the whole of India was following vedic hinduism. Dig that arsehole? |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 461 of 539 ) vikram, ahem, sinbad said that about A.S.acharya, not the cretin Gandalf... |
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BK 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 462 of 539 ) to #454: Path to god is nothing but to finding truth about life. Its for the upliftment of soul which is part of greater soul paramatma. Its not easy to decide or find which path is correct. To decide you have to take path of Karmayog, Gyayoga(Knowledge) and Bhakti. Mostly we approch god when we have problems and we got to God as begger (askin for something). Once you realise that God is always with you (that is why you alive) all fear gose away, trust in God will make you establish relationship with God. These relationship with the help of Bhakti can provide you guidelien which path you want to follwo. Cont |
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BK 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 463 of 539 ) Cont. You need to ask three questions: Why I am here?(Karama) Who am I?(Knowledge) and whom I belong to?(Bhakti). All materialistic relation betwwen muslim-muslim, hindu-hindu etc. are not relation with God. Most important thing is relationship with God irrespective of any religion, that is why Hinduism dose not preach conversion. If you get converted few times you become better person? Without Bhakti, knowledge and Karma in search of truth (GOd) you can not be a better person irrespective of religion you follwo. |
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BK 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 464 of 539 ) To Post # 448 I ma not sure what is your point. One thing is sure that if you like any path in Hinduism you can follow that without changing your own religion, in Hinduism it dose not mateer what you are called (Hindu, muslim or Chritian) but what you do and how you respect others. If you think that soul in each animal and human being is part of same Parmatma , you will not only respect all lives but also will not indulge into criticising others. As said in Hinduism criticise bad qualities of preson not person. Cont. |
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BK 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 465 of 539 ) Cont. My intention here is not to preach hinduism as myy knowledge is very limited but I am explaining what I am asked by others. At the end of the day salvation (Atma into Parmatma) is up to individual, no one either Poojari, priest or Mullah can gurantee you that. Just converting to other religion yfor going away from your existing problems or believeing that without good Karma you can get salvation just by converting, person is mistaken. Conversion dose not help you for the salvation, however if you undertsaand any religion and follow proper path in search of Truth you can get one step nearer to salvation (that too without converting) |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 466 of 539 ) Vikramji,Karapallji, Let me add that Swami Chinmayananda, who has done so much to help spread the knowledge of Gita and Upnishads was also from Kerala.I am sure that idiot Gandalf Khan will say now Kerala is part of North India, since many Keralites work in the Middle East which is to the North of Jammu and Kashmir. Dyaneashwar and Tukaram were from Maharashtra which is not exaxctly North India either. Chaitanya Mahaprabhu was from Bengal, I think,and so was Swami Vivekananda.Shri Aurobindo worked out of Pondicherry and Guru Govind Singh's Panch Pyare came from five different parts of the country.These are visionaries and they cannot be limited to a linguistic or ethnic or otherwise province. |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 467 of 539 ) " I want to tell you very frankly that mere declarations of loyalty to the Indian Union will not help you at this critical juncture. You must give practical proof of your declarations. I ask you why you did not unequivocally denounce Pakistan for attacking Indian Territory with the connivance of Frontier Tribesmen?Is it not your duty to condemn all acts of agrression against India?.In your conference you did not open your mouth on Kashmir" |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 468 of 539 ) continued "You must learn to sail in the same boat , along with Hindus and others, and sink and swim together. I want to tell you clearly that you cannot ride on two horses. You select one horse whichever you like best" SARDAR PATEL addressing Indian Muslims on Dec.27, 1947 When Chachu and Karambhrahta heard this they were busy giving dry blowjobs to Abul Kalam Jehadi and were in turn getting dry orgasms. They were very very upset and said so publicly. The key question is: Can a Muslim bearing loyalty to Koranic injunctions, SAIL IN THE SAME BOAT WITH INFIDELS AND THE NAJIS. The answer is :extremely unlikely and FACTs bear this out todate. |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 469 of 539 ) Karapallji, Vikramji,Satnamji, I hear that yesterday Gandalf Khan made passes at a Nun thinking it was a male Priest.The Nun was pleased, but Hindu police arrested Gandalf Khanji for evesteasing but the Nun is not pressing charges and is asking for Gandalf Khanji's phone number. Meanwhile a midget with 8 inches long legs has been hired by a Congress of Nuns to find paying company. I think the midget pimp's name is Anwar Sadji. You see ,everyone behaves per his or her natural inclinations. |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 470 of 539 ) sinbad, my msg. 460 is addressed to pseudo secular shitheads like sinbad and his blowjob mates. |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 471 of 539 ) sinbad, msg. 466, Well said! In fact, the roots of the bakthi movement were laid in the South, which started by Sri Ramanujacharya who brought all the untouchables and lower class people onto the hindu fold and unified the religion only thru' devotion and bhakti. This spread to the whole of India. Indians have to first burn all books that carry the racist aryan invasion theory which was a missionary invention to subjugate india for the sake of christianising the sub-continent. |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 472 of 539 ) Christianizing or Islamizing or Falungongizing is irrelevant and a red herring. The point is that no one can sustainable convert if its through fraud.. so obviously your agenda is different. Regarding Adi, hmm remember, the Hindu braminical fifth column with their superior priestcraft had infiltrated the whole of India. It does not mean that every one there were born followers of Hinduism. So ditch the lies Its a different matter that they converted to Hinduism because they felt it has something to offer. Nothing wrong with that.. But why cant you accept it? |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 473 of 539 ) No use arguing with a top class moron. Anyway, let's return to the topic of this forum - the utter irrelevance of Gandhi. V.S. Naipaul has a few good words for Gandhi! Gandhi shouldn’t be considered as laying down a prescription for anything. He was uneducated and never a thinker. He is an historical figure. He came at a particular moment; he turned all his drawbacks into religion; and he used religion to awaken the country in a way that none of the educated leaders could have done. He has absolutely no message today. People talk too much about Gandhi and study him too little. His first book, Hind Swaraj, written at white heat in two weeks in 1909, is so nonsensical it would curl the hair of even the most devoted admirer. I don’t know Indians who actually read Gandhi. They take from him some vague idea of a great redeeming holiness and they are free ignore the practical side-Gandhi the hater of dirt, the hater of public defecation. That last is still very much an Indian sport. In fact, the Gandhian idea of piety and a very holy poverty is used now to excuse the dirt of the cities, the shoddiness of the architecture. By some inversion, Indians have used the very idea of Gandhi to turn dirt and backwardness into much-loved deities. It is India’s luck that-unlike, say, revolutionary Iran-Gandhi never was responsible for the running of the country. |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 474 of 539 ) Gandalf: "The point is that no one can sustainable convert if its through fraud.. " And you make this assertion based on what trends/evidence? "Regarding Adi, hmm remember, the Hindu braminical fifth column with their superior priestcraft had infiltrated the whole of India." Wow, Indians inflitrating the whole of India. How on earth did that happen? " It does not mean that every one there were born followers of Hinduism. So ditch the lies" Go read up on Adi Shankaracarrya before you shove your foot in your mouth, you stupid cretin. |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 475 of 539 ) vikram: "sinbad, my msg. 460 is addressed to pseudo secular shitheads like sinbad and his blowjob mates." Huh?? What's up with you? sinbad can hardly be termed pseudo-secular. |
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BK 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 476 of 539 ) Adi Shankarachry who was from south of India alone re-establish hinduism when buddhism was spread all over India. This was done by his knowledge of Vedantic Hinduism. He did in his short life span of 36 years or so. This shows how strong and profound hinduism is, that, it can be re-establish by one person having knowledge of vedatic philosophy. No need of money, miracles or violence just knowledge of TRUTH. |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 477 of 539 ) Excepting some handful of Syrian Christians, some Anglican protestants and some in the original Sufi fold, every conversion away from Hinduism has been induced by either terror, bribery or fraud. Adherence to Vedantic beliefs in the West can be attributed to geniuses like the great scientist Oppenheimer or learned politicians like David ben Gurion, yes the same David ben Gurion or ex-rulers like Lord Curzon.This was further helped by migration of highly intelligent Indian professionals to the West, especially the US.Work of great people like Swami Chinmayananda and Swami Prabhupada added furthe impetus. In Goa whole villages were converted by just dropping a peace of beef or bread, clandestinely of course, in the lake that supplied water to the village.In Mumbai, Catholics are still known as Pavvalas or Makapav. |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 478 of 539 ) It is laughable to hear a Catholic secretary , usually much darker in hue than Hindus around her,announce that she comes from European or Portuguese stock!I am not poking fun at skin color, mind you. Every Muslim batya(Mumbai term for despicable converts) claims his forefathers came as rulers from Afghanistan.The said batya is usually working as butcher or barber or often not working at all or engaged in humanitarian activities like terrorism. |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 479 of 539 ) Observant people everywhere have noticed that the "BATYA" mentality undergoes severe damage that often persists through generations. The cruel and deceitful means of conversion has ensured that truly gutter class people became converts or batyas! It is with pride one can say that the Maratha Dalit(apologies with folded hands for the use of this word) is the great fighter Mahar.The Mahar regiment is renowned for valor and the Mahars for generations have beaten the shit out of the Paapis, last instance being Kargil.Shivaji's army employed a great number of these wonderful fighters. A Goan Mahar is almost invariably better behaved than a Goan catholic. A Mumbai Mahar is a far taller and more dignified person than the Bhendi Bazzar breed.He will fight terrorism. |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 480 of 539 ) Viramji. Hello, hello, Vikramji, this your pal, Sibadji.I am no buddy of Gandalf Khan or Anwar Sad, the pimp! |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 481 of 539 ) To Viramji, A glance through Lokmanya Tilak's Gitarahasya is a must for everybody subscribing to Vedantic beliefs. And compare Bal Gangadhar Tilak's erudition to Karambhrashta's vapid and often cofused bullshit re Vidyadhar Shivprasad Naipaul's sharp criticism quoted by you in #473. |
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Satnam 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 482 of 539 ) It is my understanding that the real Shirdi Sai Baba was a great saint and had a following within all communities. I assume it is the latest Sai Baba that Gandu is maligning.Frankly, there is not that much against him either.This fellow is an angel compared to many others like the current senile pope.His public TV shots do indeed suggest a malevolent personality. I remember this Pope was implicated in the murder of another Pope, wasn't he. |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 483 of 539 ) Hmm burn all books after which we have a crystal night! Pthooy! |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 484 of 539 ) Karapall, Sinbad, Satnam, BK, Indtruth HEY! SOME BASTARD IS PLAYING WITH THE MESSAGES I SEND. I had typed "my msg. 460 is addressed to pseudo secular shit heads like gandalf and his blowjob mates" Sheesh! do the secular shitheads have to go down to this level????? |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 485 of 539 ) Keeping in mind Arundhati's skills in giving blowjobs with Outlook's editor being a likeky beneficiary, it would not surprise me one bit. Treachery, fraud,terror and corruption have been the main foes of Sanatan Dharma since early 1000 AD and all those who fight for it. |
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indtruth 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 486 of 539 ) Experiments with the truth, Gandhi. Nice book i guess. Gandhi has said lots of things that most of Hindu would like and Congress, Commis to shame. Todays congress are bunch of loosers who will have no problem pimping their family members for money. MadhavRao Schindia and Rajesh Pilot suddenly met with an accident. Why these two people not others because they were the strong contender within congress. Sangma and Pawar were kicked out. There are some unseen power working to make BJP go down and prop sonia in their place. Alex Perry another asshole who is trying his best. |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 487 of 539 ) indtruth, It is no 'unknown' power. It is the Vatican, plain and simple. Ably assisted by their drug syndicate and mafia, of course. |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 488 of 539 ) Hehehe, toads in your pond, swim while you can :-) And vikram, if you made a mistak, accept it, dont blame a supper hacker who changes words hahahahahahahah illiterate racist corpse screwer who uncles are most likely screwing your sisters. hahaha, go lick a lingam and talk |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 489 of 539 ) gandalf miyan, you having incestuous dreams again i suppose? And you are into screwing corpses too now !!!!! Baah! you pigs are real dirty! yuck! |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 490 of 539 ) "It is laughable to hear a Catholic secretary , usually much darker in hue than Hindus around her,announce that she comes from European or Portuguese stock!I am not poking fun at skin color, mind you." Disgusting racist.. Its as laughable as hearing a bramin say he comes from Aryan stock.. You corpse fucking sicko |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 491 of 539 ) Gandalf Khan, So Necrophilia is the latest fad among Tamil seperatists, eh. Is this how you were born? who was dead, your mother or your father or both. Is this the reason you are braindead? The statement above referrs to a racist idiot boasting her European stock inspite of dark skin color only because she is a proud(?) convert to the wonders of Catholicism,inquisitionand the maderchot Xavier notwithstanding. That idiot is a racist not me but this is beyond your dead intelligence. |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 492 of 539 ) Check out your Aghora Swamis in Benares. And frankly, I wont be surprised if you are a child molestor. Trully a sick fellow. And what ever you do, Buddhism, Christianity and Islam are strong forces follwed by people all over the world. People who converted. Dont think that the caste system exist beyond our borders and every one looks up to Braminical hindus as gods. Frogs in your well, you have been protected by isolation for too long, Its interesting how this pans out. I am blocking you sicko tata! |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 493 of 539 ) Gandalf Khan, You have taken total leave of your remaining senses. First you confessed to necrophilia, now to child molesting. Complete imbeciles like you abuse others looking at self. I am sure you molest dead children as a five year old could beat the living shit out of a filthy reptile like you. I stronly recommend you become a suicide bomber and walk into a Jehadi meeting and set a fine example for survivors to follow. Did the police beat you too much.? I understand you were arrested recently on multiple moral turpitude charges.Did they drive your remaining brains out of your asshole?More power to Bangalore police. You missed numerous spellings as usual.Truly pathetic, you the putrid mass of lies, hate,ignirance and illiteracy |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 494 of 539 ) This bastard gandalf is a thoroughly despicable creature! bbbaaaahhh! First he confesses about his incestuous desires. Then he talks about his deep seated longing for necrophilia. Then he follows it up with his child molesting pursuits. After all this depraved puking, he turns around and accuses the audience of all this !!! And another missionary trick of his (which he picked up while being humped by his catholic priest) is to include buddhist along with christianity and islam !!!!! and this incestuous bastard never accepts that islam wiped out buddhism even when BRA (his hero) has told this. Pigs can never be made human. |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 495 of 539 ) ignirance ??? Corpse screwer. go attain nirvana |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 496 of 539 ) After I kick my 101st mullah in the face, I may well achieve mukti, thank you for the good wishes. May you be reborn as leprocy bacterium or would you prefer to be a cancerous cell? |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 497 of 539 ) Sorry, not to impressed by this ridiculous rebirth shit. When I am gone, I am gone - Finito. hehe, what a ridiculous idea. Anyway tell me what should a leprocy bacterium do to get reborn as a say a shark?.. Can you meditate and give me poor supplicant your answer? |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 498 of 539 ) Gandalf: " Anyway tell me what should a leprocy bacterium do to get reborn as a say a shark?" Infecting a worthless scumbag like you should suffice, surely. Hell, the leprosy bacterium might become leader of the free world for doing that wonderful deed. |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 499 of 539 ) Gandalf Khanji,You idiotji, Lately you seem to be infected with this Necrophilia bug. Do you hallucinate that you are screwing Jesude's corpse and in disgust Jesus is walking away.THAT COULD BE THE RESURRECTION!!!! Hohohohohohohoho,hahahahaha. |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 500 of 539 ) In 499 pls read Jesus's corpse. |
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indtruth 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 501 of 539 ) Gandalf, So you are the reason Jesus ressurrected. Man, you are something. You must be stinking like pig man. It is very difficult (may be not) to belief most of the muslim turn into terrorist, riotist, criminal, anti national etc etc. Meditation is for people with higher intellect. People like you are happy with their herd mentality. Like a herd of goats, you plunder and disturb everysane civilization. When you are gone or dead you are really gone to hell. I do agree there is no returning back for you. Evil will love you in tub full of oil. Its called TUB bath. Muhammad will be there too. |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 502 of 539 ) err, you've lost your marbles, What!!. Hang on, chappie.. afew more years in the west would make you sane |
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indtruth 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 503 of 539 ) GANDALF: I didn't know you collect marbles. Keep it up. You may see Janat touching it. Westerner are not so civilized as complexed guys like you and commis feel about themselve. Most of the hate, jealousy, babarism etc are found in every street in West. Mid-East is another place, you will find this in plenty. Not to forget Pakistan and Bangladesh. |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 504 of 539 ) indtruthji, He collects them because he lacks them.He is a very sick person. Gandalfji, pls consider an honorable end to your life.Try hanging.Even an idiot like you may be able to manage it. |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 505 of 539 ) Then get out of the west you Sanghi scum. You go like prostitutes deserting your country. Your guilt makes you try to atone by supporting facist parties in India. But where are your children going dudes, One generation, Fine, second generation... hmm, third generation... even more hmmmmm, 4th generation... HAHAHAHA. If you have a problems with non-hindu religions then get out of non-hindu countries. Some of us Indians do not need a religious prop for our self respect, you spineless need to lean on the private concept of religion is spoiling our countries name |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 506 of 539 ) "go like prostitutes deserting your country" And you marxist bastard, are a pimp who is worst than a prostitute. At least a prostitute sells her body. What do you sell? Fucker, you lick the proceeds of prostitute and live a life by prostituting the country. "If you have a problems with non-hindu religions then get out of non-hindu countries." Then fucker, if you have problem with hindu religion, FUCK OUT of India. I give a fuck whether you call India secular or saffronist. If you do not like what 85% of the population follows, go blow yourself up. We will fart loudly in your memory. |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 507 of 539 ) Gandalf Khan, you failed latrine cleaner. Then why are you bitching about Expat Indians in the US sending money to the VHP and the RSS and building temples and gurudwaras in the US, not destroying churches . You may take cognizance that no Hindu group has indulged in any anti-national or seperatist movement anywhere in the world but have lived as model minorities in sharp contrast to our minorities,do you understand, you imbecile. |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 508 of 539 ) Gandalf: "If you have a problems with non-hindu religions then get out of non-hindu countries. " The corollary to this, you stupid vicious shit, is that if you can't stand hinduism, then get out of India. Are you so stupid that you did not think about how this applies to an anti-hindu bigot like you, before you made the above statement?? I guess you are.... |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 509 of 539 ) The only place in the world where people from the sub continent have idulged in organized bigotry and politically incorrect demands is the Bradford Leeds area in Britain. These difficulties are being caused by your beloved Paki maderchods of whatever original passport. A young Sikh was murdered last year which the police believe was hate crime. Now hate comes naturally to Jehadi bastards. |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 510 of 539 ) "no Hindu group has indulged in any anti-national or seperatist movement anywhere in the world but have lived as model minorities" Fiji, Uganda, Surinam, South Africa.. not the most love minority if you ask me |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 511 of 539 ) Karapall, I dont have a problem with other religions, you have, so if you Sanghis have a problem with other religions, why the fuck are you desering bharat mata and coding or driving taxis. Show the world the way.. IF you believe that ever one in India should bowdown tothe majority, then you should also do the same. (I forgot, you guys are anyway know to be grovelling subservient dirty dark age fools) |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 512 of 539 ) "Fiji, Uganda, Surinam, South Africa.. not the most love minority if you ask me" Trust this arsehole to come up with totally obnoxious marxist examples that portray the victims as the perpetrators .Bastard, it is not the indians who start the civil war but are the victims. Fucker don't you remember Idi Amin (who has converted to your religion Islam and is now in Al Arabia Al Saud and who fucked the total country)who drove out all the indians Fiji - bastard read and realise that your partner George Speight is counting his days buddy for the civil war he started after overthrowing a democratic govt. like your idol musharaf. Of course, marxist logic says that a govt. led by a hindu is called 'saffron' and not 'democratic', but then humans can't answer animal logic like that. Fucker dip your head in a pond of fertilizers so that something grows in it. |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 513 of 539 ) "I dont have a problem with other religions" Of course you have, you vatican bastard. You hate and indulge in everything possible to vilify hinduism. Fucker, look into the mirror and see you fucking ugly face and more important, realise that others know it and they don't like what they see. |
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Satnam 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 514 of 539 ) This comment about taxi is directed at me. Some of these hatefilled minds have decided that I am a taxi driver in New York or Canada or California or all of these places. Shows how secular and humane this maderchod really is. Bindra, remember to every Jehadi you are a dumb Surd fit to be a taxidriver or a carpenter.They will only incite you to your destruction. |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 515 of 539 ) Gandalf: "if you Sanghis have a problem with other religions, why the fuck are you desering bharat mata and coding or driving taxis." I fully expect that these people who work hard to earn money in strange foreign places to acquire enough clout to wipe the streets with the faces of communist, anti-national motherfuckers like you. |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 516 of 539 ) Gandalf: " I dont have a problem with other religions" Would you like me to dig up all the anti-hindu bigotry you display until very recently?? Well, anyone who is interested can click on Gandalf's name and see a list of all his posts. Readers can decide whether this lying, bible-thumping, pro-LTTE asshole has the interests of India in mind. |
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indtruth 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 517 of 539 ) Fiji, Uganda, Surinam, South Africa.. not the most love minority if you ask me FIJI: A military coup led by 14th adventist church group who were singing praise of convicted Roman criminal Jesus. George Speight their Golden Portege took whole elected MP his Hostage along with his christian goons. Then came a christian Indian Lawyer to save his christian brother George Speight But unfortunately he was jailed for presenting forged Lawyer credential. Just imagine, the never failing loyality of Indian Christians. |
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indtruth 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 518 of 539 ) Don't forget, When Business oriented Jews left Germany They took their money with them to America. If Congress wouldn't have pursued commis policy, people wouldn't have gone out of India to find better life. But these Expat send dollars to their family in India which Congress wanted to kiss and jump. It is bcuz of congress decades of misrule, India had to ship her Gold reserve to save India from getting bankrupt. Today, When BJP is in power and money started pouring in from Expat Indians, Congress and Militant religionist are Jealous and wondering how can Hindu be so rich? |
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indtruth 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 519 of 539 ) Christian who were propagating that Hindus are poor bcuz of their faith. But 21st century when Kali Yuga is at its last leg, Hindus are taking stride to make our beloved India a place of peace and riches where minority will give up thier militant ideology and create a world of respect and harmony. |
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indtruth 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 520 of 539 ) BUT THEN: The Federation of Indian American Christian Organisations of Northern America (FIACONA) has demanded a probe by the US Congress. http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_107322,0005 0001.htm |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 521 of 539 ) Biju Mathai, an Indian christian from New York, who is probably affiliated to this traitor shit Gandalf, is actively trying to get the US CONGRESS!! to pass a law making the RSS and VHP terrorist groups. Now, what do you all think the motive of this so-called Indian christian motherfuckers is?? These are the same motherfuckers insisting that the hindus need to have a peaceful attitude towards minorities. Pretend to fight the fire while feeding the flame, that is the motto of the bible-thumping pseudo-secular shitheads who hate to see any impediments to their proselytyzation. |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 522 of 539 ) Karapallji, The behavior of the Indian Catholics is hardly different from most Muslims. Every Catholic I know claims he is a descendent of the Portuguese,dark skin not withstanding. The Portuguese were a nasty people, they used a great number of African slaves, it is possible that a large number of very dark Indian Catholics are descendents of African slaves. Pls note that I have nothing against skin color, I am talking about the stupidity and racism of a fucked up lot. |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 523 of 539 ) Biju Matthew is a missionary puke. I ask the readers to go thru' all the contributions made by Cisco, Intel and Sun Micro to various religious organistaions. Majority of the contribution goes towards evangelical, adventist and baptist organisations that openly proclaim as their objective the christianisation of India. Fuck these companies and their donations - it is but a drop. All this is only pushing more hindus who are on the fringes into the lap of RSS and VHP. |
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indtruth 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 524 of 539 ) Hindus must concentrate on the activity of these Indian Christian. Instead of shouting about the deeds of Muslims, we need to Spread the awareness on the conspiracies of Christians who are leading crusades against Hindus as well as muslims all over the world. Just imagine How much lowest of all caste Indian Christian are working for their masters in US Christian Churches who just want to make Hindus their Slaves. These Christian JaiChand unfortunately are supported by unaware Hindus who neither have knowledge of Bible nor have the knowledge of Christian History. |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 525 of 539 ) Mathews is a fixed feature in pinkodom, often writing for puke-sheets like "Rethinking Marxism" and with a presence on every pinko website. Who's the prime sponsor of the report? The marxist and islamic arseholes - Teesta Setalvad (bitch no.1) and Javed Anand's Sabrang Communications! Take a look at their India-Pakistan friendship forum's logo on http://www.sabrang.com/aman/index.htm: Obse rve the relative scaling of the two countries. Note the drawing of India -- with the State of Jammu & Kashmir lopped off. Ultimate aim is to lop off the whole of India of course! |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 526 of 539 ) Examples of non-profits in the US, donations to which are matched by US corporations: - India Rural Evangelical Fellowship Inc, Park Ridge, IL -- dedicated to bringing Jesus to the illiterate masses of rural India. - Quentin Road Ministries, Lake Zurich, IL -- "Our goal is to spread the good news of Jesus Christ to the world." - Andhra Adventists Association, Hyattsville, MD -- "Adventist." |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 527 of 539 ) According to "Cisco Systems Foundation Awards Grants to Hometown Charities," the company has given grants to, amongst others, Catholic Charities Euclid Girls' Home, Jewish Vocational Services, and St Vincent de Paul Society of San Mateo County. Then, "Who Serves Sunday Dinner" at the Catholic Charities, Diocese of Santa Rosa? "Hewlett Packard Employees, Of Course!" So what's with the bar on funding a charity of and for Hindus...? |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 528 of 539 ) According to a report in europemedia.net, a survey taken after 9/11 found that "After the attacks, well over $120m (Euros 136.7m) was raised online in individual contributions." Which prompted AOL, Cisco and Yahoo to launch an e-philanthropy portal called Network for Good. Are we to believe that Americans donated some of that money to Islamic charities post-9/11...? |
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vikram99 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 529 of 539 ) According to Mathews, IDRF has raised funds for Bangladeshi Hindu victims of Muslim violence, Kashmiri Hindu victims of Islamic terrorism, and relief efforts following the Islamic terrorist attacks in the US. Er... what's evil about that? Does raising money for the victims of Islamist crimes amount to spreading hatred...? In which case, why don't these dorks ask for a ban on all madarsas (which also receive foreign funds) for spreading hatred? Why aren't all "minority institutions" banned for spreading hatred? Just because Hindus are a majority, anything Hindus do for Hindus is tantamount to spreading hatred...? And what about the Islamists going around killing Hindus??? |
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indtruth 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 530 of 539 ) Once you take away Gods from India then What is their in India. There is more that 5700 rapes in a year. There is murder and conversion to other evil religion. Satanic Christian religion dancing the naked dance on the dead bodies and soul of Hindus. Sonia like a Harlot seducing corrupt and anti Hindu politicians. It is only matter of time when there would be another Jalianwala Hatya Kaand when Commis and congress will create another General Diars and Sanders who will massacre millions of Hindus and Sikh like they did after Indira's death. Thirst for Blood has gone to the mind of these Satanic cults and I pray to Lord to end this evil Powers. Hindus have to prepare themselve for sacrifice their life walking in the path of Gandhi who never gave up his Hindu faith and belief and Trust on Lord Rama. Even on his death, He didn't forget to Call on to Lord Ram. "HAI RAM" |
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indtruth 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 531 of 539 ) "HAI RAM" These were the words of GANDHI, the prophet of Non violence. He adopted a muslim to make him another Gandhi. "Gandhi" that gave Sonia with questionable character to grab the seat of Congress presidentship. George Vincent a anti Hindu guy was working as the close confidant of Rajeev and was manipulating Rajiv, a truly genuine man, to create a Holy Christian image in India. Ask any Hindu who never read a Bible about Christian, He will say they are good people. Ask any HIndu who has read the Bible and knows about their activity in India, He will say they are the most evil religion on this earth. |
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indtruth 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 532 of 539 ) We must not let East Timur happen to India. Indians must keep their eyes on the activity of Christian people and it is ok to play brain game with them as these evil follow not rule. Even Mahabarata has example that When Korav murdered Abhimanyu by illegal tactics. This gave excuse to pandavs to use the same tactics. Any Christian who is indulging in solicitation or criminal activities in the community must be reported to police. |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 533 of 539 ) vikram, These christian NRIs are all supported by the "Secular" anti-hindu party, the congress party. Hindu groups need to dig up all the dirt on these NRI assholes (just pay any investigator a few hundred dollars and you can get the life history of these motherfuckers.) Slander and destroy the lives (metaphorically) of the NRI christian motherfuckers. Repay the viciousness of these Indian christian motherfuckers by moving to the next level. DO NOT GET DETERRED. You have the numbers behind you, 800 million of them. If you are organized, dedicated, and have the interests of hindu society and its inherent tolerance, you need to fight these evangelistic vultures. Note that this Biju Mathai motherfucker is basically making this a religious conversion turf war, as can be seen from the NGOs that he is labeling as "terrorist" hindu groups. ORGANIZE AND USE YOUR NRI CONNECTIONS TO DESTROY THESE PSEUDO-SECULAR MOTHERFUCKERS. |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 534 of 539 ) Martyr Narayan Apte was not two feet away from Mohandas Karambhrashta when Martyr Nathuram Godse finished of the Dharmdrohi. Narayan Apte has written that Mohandas did not utter any such words.He just looked terrified and dazed. |
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gandalf 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 535 of 539 ) Your posts are useful inthe sense that it clearly exposes Sanghi thinking. But this one of yours goes beyond any standard of decency. I would like to see your face when you face death |
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BK 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 536 of 539 ) As far as foreign fund to India is concern I believe all foreign funds must be banned including Islamic and Christian caharity. Islamic and Christian funds are harming India more than any other fund. Hinduism is based on eternal truth and truth is not begger and dose not require marketing. |
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Karapall 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 537 of 539 ) Gandalf: "Your posts are useful inthe sense that it clearly exposes Sanghi thinking. But this one of yours goes beyond any standard of decency. " You are a fine one to talk of decency, asshole. Your only problem with all the "sanghi" thinking is that it is against your white masters' conversion agenda. |
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sinbad 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 538 of 539 ) Fati Gand Begum, Veer Narayan Apte or for that matter nobody is ridiculing the fear Mohandas Karambhrashta showed when facing death, but he was exposing the lie that Gandu somehow died a brave death uttering Ram Naam. Obviously, one cannot expect Mohandas Gandu to exibit the same courage as Emperor Sambhaji, who did not show any fear or pain afer 24 days of the most hideous torture at the hands of Aurangya Paapi's thugs.That is why right thinking people call Emperor Sambhaji a Dharmveer and Gandu a Dharmdrohi. Also note that Mohandas Karambhrashta was pontificating Hindu and Sikh refugees on the need of moral courage in the days before he was put out of his misery by Veer Nathuram Godse. |
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baga 1/31/2002 12:31:08 AM ( 539 of 539 ) ALL NATIONALISTS HINDUS SAFRONISTS PLS VISIT >>>> WWW.HINDUUNITY.COM |
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