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Solution to Kashmir problem as proposed by Outlook Free Speech Host 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM Do you agree with the "solution" suggested by Outlook? Kashmir: A Framework For Peace |
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r_sharma 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 1 of 59 ) A Chain Reaction Though is commendable that you have tried to search a solution to Kashmir dispute (Outlook, 11 June 2001) but the analysis is flawed and results dangerous. Pakistan's Supreme Court has ruled that Azad Kashmir is not part of Pakistan. Indian Executive council has declared J&K (undivided) as integral part of India. Then how can the solution proposed by you might be acceptable? Again a solution like that will mean a complete surrender to fundamentalist forces. Though they may capture the power in India or Pakistan but the influence should not govern the policies. A free J&K will soon become the another flourishing ground for Islamic Groups (ex. Taleban) and will be a threat to world peace. Next if you are conceding Kashmir now then forget about the portion captured by China or the portion adversely in occupation with Bangladesh. A solution like this will undermine the very basic idea of India: The peaceful co-existence of all religions. Today Kashmir, tomorrow North-East and then India divided. By the way can a solution like this be ever proposed to China in reference to Tibet or Taiwan? No never and here lies the difference. J&K may be in India but the people never thought they always compromised over it. Rajiv Sharma rajivsharma@forindia.com IIT, Kharagpur |
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ap 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 2 of 59 ) Flood the valley with 5-6millions of Indian citizens (We are a billion strong), Pakis have done that in POK, China has done the same in their Xzjang province to scuttel seperatist's . Why not India? change the demographic makeup of kashmir and peace will arrive. It will be better for kashmiri who will benifit toofrom investment . Who are the stupid "freedom wanting" kashmiri kidding? they will be annexed by pakis to create talabini afganistani type state should any crap like soft boarder or autonomus nonsense is pussyfooted with? So flood it with 5million odd Indians and end of story , every one lives better. Anything else is just half bakes scatter brain talk . Like it or not if we want a solution flooding kashmir with indians is the solution. After all every indian citizen is paying for kashmiri subsudies for last 50yrs from tax money. Why cant we not buy land etc..??? Cut the crap and flood the state. |
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thetruth 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 3 of 59 ) OFFENSE IS THE BEST DEFENSE . KASHMIR PROBLEM CANNOT BE SOLVED BY TALK . KILL ALL THE TERRORISTS . THEN IT WILL BE SOLVED . INDIA IS STRONG ENOUGH TO FINISH OFF THE TERRORISTS AND EVEN PAKISTAN . FINISH THE TERRORISTS IN KASHMIR , THEN LET US SUPPORT THE SINDHIS , MOJAHIRS who wants FREEDOM FROM THE PAKISTAN . OUR AIM SHOULD BE TAKING BACK POK . DESTRUCTION of PAKISTAN is the key TO world-peace . DESTRUCTION of PAKISTAN will be a service to the WORLD . |
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ketkar 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 4 of 59 ) what the hell is ur PLAN. people v r dealing with the pakis here. do u negotiate with vermins NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. kill those barbarians and free our sacred land. |
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Admin 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 5 of 59 ) Please desist from very long introductory messages as these go on top of each page. We are working on being able to shift these down and to have admin-given introductions which could change with the thrust of the discussion... |
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r_sharma 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 6 of 59 ) Ref. Mr. Ketkar The plan is simple: Undivided J&K is our part. Take it by any mean, preferrably peaceful if not then be ready for war. |
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aarif 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 7 of 59 ) Your solution is silly. PoK has no insurgency, no pro-India sentiments, and India has defacto quasi-recognised (by not crossing the LoC during Kargil) that it had no plans to retake PoK. So, freezing the line of control in to a border gives pakistan nothing special. However your solution requires Pakistan to recognise as Indian an area where there is strong seperatist sentiment and even some pro-Pakistan pockets of feelings. Whereas, India gets over its biggest headache, pakistan will feel it got nothing it didnt already have. Pakistan should cede its claim to jammu and ladakh, and india should do the same for Pakistan occupied Northern Areas (roughly Gilgit to Chitral). Siachin should be demilitarised with joint patrols. This localises the dispute to the Kashmir valley roughly between Muzaffarabad on the pak side of the LOC and Srinigar on the Indian side. Thereafter we can talk about autonomy, cross border miltancy etc. for the small area which is really at the heart of the dispute. People in Jammu and Ladakh dont really have a problem with india, and the population in the Northern Areas is quite happy with Pak rule as they are not ethnic kashmiri at all. This would be a start. The problem in the actual kashmir valley can then be sorted out over the coming years through confidence building measures as proposed by outlook. |
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r_sharma 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 8 of 59 ) Ref: Mr. Aarif's statement The whole Pak argument is that for Azad Kashmir (Their Supreme Court has ruled). And again why give Kashmir, because it is Muslim dominated. So tomorrow any other state (say NE, or WB) will demand autonomy. So you are opening a pandora's box, which might jeopardize the unity of India later (The problem of J&K was actually started on this same, courtesy Pt. J.L Nehru). As for demilitarization: Where it has worked in the world? Nowhere, that too with a fundamentalist state. J&K does not require localization: It requires a will to unification. An idea like united Germany or one China. Surrender POK today, China occupied portion tomorrow, Bangladesh occupied area later and then wait for disintegration. When Pak could not ensure a good deal for East Pakistan (Bangladesh) in the past how can it now? Can you talk with some country, which is in the grip of jihadis, a nation inherently unstable and above all a nation who has given birth to one of the most suppressive regime in the world? Nations are born on will, ideas and commitments, not on fear of some jihadi's groups. Fight them because it is not about feelings of Kashmiris but because it is about the idea of India: A one, unified and resurgent. |
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rav666 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 9 of 59 ) aarif, one flaw in your argument is about India's 'quasi-recognition' of Pak's right on PoK. That LoC crossing didn't take place should be considered a positive step - India has already conceded its share (in anticipation of a reciprocal measure) before coming to the negotiating table, so it doesn't have to concede anything more. Pak doesnt have to feel that it got nothing extra, but could feel thankful that what it has already (i.e. PoK) is in view of the restraint observed by India. My only problem with this whole talks is whether the Kashmiri opinion is being factored or not. |
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aarif 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 10 of 59 ) Ref r_sharma and rav666: there's no argument that compromising on Kashmir may encourage seperatists elsewhere. My point was to ask you to put yourself in Pak's shoes. We have to recognise that there is no insurgency in PoK. So quid pro quo just isnt logical for them. The assertion that we claim PoK just isnt taken seriously anywhere, least of all in India. Pak may 'compromise' to avert bankruptcy, but apart from that Outlook's solution will make no sense for them. My question again is, if Pak stops the insurgency in J&K, it helps India, but it gets nothing in return by a freezing of borders at the LOC. It already has PoK and India will not invade Pakistan in the post-cold war era. Demilitarisation CAN work in Siachin, because it is the stupidest most god-foresaken place to fight in, and everyone wants out. Unification? Yes that is a great idea. But how do we know that a semi-autonomous elected government in Unified Kashmir wont be pro-Pakistan. Can we allow that? If we dont, will the insurgency (at least the indigenous portion of it) ever stop? |
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rav666 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 11 of 59 ) aarif, it isnt difficult to see the Paki point of view - the need to acquire Kashmir. It would be the next logical thing for a nation formed out of the two-nation theory (based on religion). However, what the Pakis fail to see is that the two-nation rule was not strictly carried out. Pak was an Islamic nation, but India became a secular one and is home to the second largest muslim population in the world. A separate Bangladesh was carved out. And Kashmiris, people of a contentious territory, are not buyers of the two-nation theory (despite Pak's valiant attempts). I firmly believe that slicing Kashmir between India and Pak is not the solution. Referendum is. |
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maslah 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 12 of 59 ) India must withdraw from jammu and kashmir and allow the kashmiris to live with their muslim brothers in pakistan. Just as we Muslims live as a minority in Indian the kashmiri pundits will live as a minority in pakistan - that is what a majority of kashmiris want - is'nt that what democracy is all about - majority decides! India is a diverse society and Hindutva is not a powerful enough ideology to hold the country together- by forcing people to form part of the Union we are only weakening it. I for one would prefer the peaceful Islamisation of India without any coercion. |
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thetruth 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 13 of 59 ) kashmiri pandits have driven out from the valley by the criminals called muslims . our media is secular , our media won't pay much attention to the problems faced by kashmiri hindus . our media will in stead focus on the glamorous AFGAHAN refugees , the problems in palestine etc . And our politicians won't say anything on this issue , beacuse from the beginning itself , these fucking politicians r appeasing the muslims . J Nehru , the scoundrel , was more interested in making himself a world leader , and he could have sold out thw whole of India for achieving that . Nehru and the Gandhi motherfucker valued thier international images more than the whole of India . muslims r curse to the world . once they r wiped out , the world will be a far better place . Look everywhere . u will find muslims are behind all the problems . They are simply parasites , ungrateful bastards . Behind the recent violences in ENGLAND also these fucking muslim parasites are their . In a christian country like USA or England minorities are safe . But in all muslim countries minorities are treated very badly . Because ISLAM teaches these muslims to hate the non-muslims . Hatred is the driving force of islam . ISLAM which is the worst thing happened to world was spread with the sword . Now swords are not as powerful as atom bombs . So these frustrated criminals are creating disturbances everywhere . MUSLIM countries want to go back to stone age like Afganistan is doing now. So they hate all the progressive nations .Beware of them .Hatred is in their blood . Hatred is their religion . KASHMIR PROBLEM is due to the ungrateful muslim bastards there. If they don't want to stay in INDIA , let them go to PAKISTAN . And let us all remember HINDUSTAN will not be completed without taking back whole of Pakistan and for that holy reason alone , any number of wars are good . Let us finish of the Pakistanis . KASHMIR problem will be solved on its own . |
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r_sharma 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 14 of 59 ) ref: the truth one thing the words are highly objectionable. there is nothing wrong with Islam as such but something terribly wrong with its interpretation: they way the clerics percieces it. again two wrongs do not make a right. funametalism is bad for everyone and by everyone. |
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Vikky_Bh 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 15 of 59 ) Please go thru the message by a typical indian muslim, muslah. though they live in india, they want to give kashmir to pakisthan. these muslims are anti - indians. they are unfaithfull dogs. more than the nation, they identify themselves with their religion. they should be thrown out of india. india has alreay harmed itself enuf. it is high time to realise these dangerous weeds and throw them out. |
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jaihind 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 16 of 59 ) maslah religion is not what holds the country together if that was the case we woudnt have seen bangladesh and we wouldnt hav seen iran and iraq fight like dogs. anyway when we talk about kashmir it is the same state which acceded to India in 1947 to drive away the tribal muslims backed by the pakis who rampaged everything they saw. Now the ground situation is totally different we hav an indian state which is unhappy and this has been totally exploited by the muslim bros from pak.now we have a state where a bunch of people want independence, others want to go merge with their paki brothers and there are others who want to live with India and last but not the least there are people who are driven out of the state for them to hav no say. So we actually have a whole lot of confused people in kashmir who are looking for a direction. and getting to a pragmatic approach India is in a best position to provide direction among the avilable options |
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4india 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 17 of 59 ) Its because of people like maslah that every muslim in India needs to be looked at with suspicion. He is enjoying the benefits of being in India but wants Pakistan to take away Kashmir from his ( if at all he feels its his country ) country. Everbody is aware of the situation of Hindu Minorities in Pakistan and Bangladesh. Why the hell do u think you have more freedom than ur Muslim brothers elsewhere ? Just because u are in India. Kashmir might be a muslim majority state but there are more Muslims living in peace and harmony in places like Kerala , if being with India is no harm for them then why is it for Kashmiris ?? Its just because of its proximity to Pakistan. Even after hundreds of years of Mughal dominance and arson Hindutva still reigns in India , just because its a way of life. Pity you say its not a powerful ideology. God save the world from Muslims and their burned out brains!!!!!!! |
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Tathagat 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 18 of 59 ) appa DeepO bhava The Shadows (Parchaeeyaan) .. read in Urdu in Poetry: distilled emotion thread By Saahir Ludianavi Since long has the polemic of politics upheld That the child growing into a young man is but fodder for the war Since long have the rulers ruled That poisonous weeds be sown in distant lands. Since long the dreamy eyes of young men stare into vacant spaces Since long does unrequited love seek refuge Since long, on the trampled royal roads Life, like a maiden lost, lies destitute. Let us call upon the trampled souls to give their wounds a voice Our secrets are not only ours They belong to the entire world Let this entire world henceforth be our confidant. Let us tell these political gamblers That we hate their ways of war and ruin That a life draped in the colours of blood Is repugnant to us. Declare that if killers now come this way Each road shall turn narrower Each waft of breeze shall turn viciously around Each delicate branch of trees shall harden into veins of stone. Arise and declare to all warmongers That what we need are machines to work It is not others’ land that we crave We need ploughs to farm our own lands. This is the land of Gautam and Nanak No serpents shall lurk on these sacred lands Our blood belongs of the generations to come Swords shall not sprout from this. Declare that if even today we remain silent This throbbing world shall cease to be A world engulfed in atomic furies Shall not last, nor shall the skies be. During the previous wars, only the homes and hearths were razed But this time it will not be surprising if even our solitudes shall remain no more During the previous wars, it was only human bodies that were lost But this time it will not be surprising if even the shadows are forever gone. Shadows of reflections begin to take shape in my mind. (Translated by Bhupinder, May 31 1998) |
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One 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 19 of 59 ) Why not think Kashmir as Pakistan. Pakistan became a separate state and we all know what has become out of it. Kashmir might become another Pakistan. Or maybe it might fare better. Well I as a Muslim MIGHT ( yes might and not will)be able to see Kashmir as a independent state but I wll never want to see another Pakistan or kashmir becoming a part of Pakistan. |
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One 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 20 of 59 ) Pakistan is like a poison and gives throuble to everyone near it. If not for Pakistan there would have never been any Taliban. Pakistan created Taliban in Afghanistan. Now they want to create another Taliban in Kashmir. |
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One 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 21 of 59 ) But Kashmir is not happy under the Indian rule. Kashmiris are being TORTURED by the Indian army. If India had treated Kashmir well enough Kashmiris would have never wanted a separate state. |
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krash 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 22 of 59 ) How long are you going to live with the Haemorhoids?{pakistan} The only way to get rid is the surgery There are thousands of reasons to do so We have been made to kiss the asses of the invaders since the ages But that should not happen for long. They should not made to stand in front of us with their heads-up Should they it must be chopped-off |
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spirit 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 23 of 59 ) Kashmir problem,a politics of land with which pakistan govt's,fundamentalists have fooled their common people. Reason.Pakistan is poor nation.Religious people want power over corrupt leaders,fool common people.There are problems in pakistan economy,religion,society which shows double face of pak rulers,religious leaders.If they felt about kashmir people/peace in kashmir 60,000 people wouldnot have been killed till now.If they feel for kashmir people,they should aim for peace,education for children,tourism which brings business/money to people,hostels for orphans,widows etc.Or else they would have taken orphans,widows to own country and given them shelters,but they are also responsible for problems for muslims there.Kasmhmir is one land,second people.After 50 years no govt can give small piece of land.But yes,some people of kasmhir will feel betrayed by India by mishandling of issue by Indian politicians.So people should be given freedom to go to pakistan or stay in India(kasmhiris have freedom to go anywhere in India).If pakistan is serious,it should aim for peace/prosperity of kasmhmir.India has entrepreneurs,money to develop tourism/bring money to state,jobs to youth.And sorry,but some plain advise to president musharraf.He is a smart ruler,for he has brought army back to power in a filmi way.His Indian visit has given him and his govt acknowledgement as a ruler around world,even in US(some reports).But India doesnot interfere in neighbours internal affairs,and policy is for peace in region,for development of own country/common people.But president should develop his country's economy,for people have lot of problems (more than India) there.If he sincerely works for upliftment of common people(esp women) of pak,he will become more popular than previous rulers(not by dancing to tunes of army/corrupt religious people).Wars/politics over religion are short term tactics to be popular.Remember hitler.And religious islamic people should clean there religion,which had forgotten that you cannot force people to take slippers in hand to house of god.(in jama masjid they force people to go with slippers in hand) .And lastly,if pakis were sincere they wouldnot have said that prisoners of war donot exist in pak jails,when there family memebers have been living on hope of there living alive.Some pakis can be issued visas to live if they like to live in kashmir.But how do people in pakistan be benefited,if kasmhmir goes to pakistan.Indians will be happy to leave people who want to go.Indian govt should put funds and peace in kashmir,alongwith pakis.Common people in India/pak migrate to developed countries because of problems.How does life of kashmiri change if he goes to pak.Common man wants peace,job,education,respect in his life(which any govt./army rule takes away),security of life.Can general help them in providing that.What jehad pak has done for 50 years,if kashmir has become a hell.These fights puts poision,darkness in hearts of misleaded youth.That poision will come in own houses also.At least one positive aspect of USA, a land of different religions,cultures etc working in businesses. |
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Tiger 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 24 of 59 ) Why cant we give entire state instead of what "The genius, outstanding, self respectful , patriot, brave THE OUTLOOK TEAM". Don't write something for the sake of selling magazine. Think whether you can write this by sitting pakistan,in a pakistani daily. Your family will be shedding tears now at front of you Pic. Dont take adv of Democracy for you circulation. Cheers Indian |
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hum 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 25 of 59 ) Kashmir is a thorn for both the sides; more so for a Pakistan. Due to change in the alignments of countries; Pakistan cant get so much of funds to spend millions to support Kashmiri militants. With a dwindling economy totally dependent on support from outside, it needs a solution badly so that it can move on to path of progress, industrialization and true independence in terms of economy.. Whereas for India, it is not so bad a problem; though the money spent on maintaining Kashmir a part of India could be utilised in other places and the cut in defence expenditure... Repeating the point, Pakistan badly needs to cut the defence expenditure whereas India feels it is about time to do the same... More than anything else, this feeling is the bottomline forcing towards solution.. Seeing the pressures, we could be looking at a military solution being forced on us in India... Coming back to solution, I think the solution lies in a massive media campaign.... Let the world be made aware of the sharp contrast in state of Indian muslims who migrated to Pakistan(other wise known as mohajirs) as opposed to Pakistani Hindus who migrated to India. The second reason for this media campaign is that it would be an eyeopener for those muslims who are in India and still feel that grass is greener on other side of Border... To quote Asma Jehangir(Human Rights - Pakistan), "We should accept that more freedom of speech prevails in India than in Pakistan and India has progressed much more than Pakistan". Thirdly, I think India should start preparing for plebiscite by getting Kashmiri Pandits back into Kashmir... I was in Punjab when KPS Gill had done the crackdown in Punjab. The human right activists were left to bark, but the heavy crack down has brought back Punjab to India. Life had become hell for people in those 3 years of crack down. But now life is normal and thats the price for normalcy.....Its like a medicene which would taste bitter after taken for a few days but would make you feel better. If we say J & K is integral part of India, my question is why cant we have blanket ban on media(as was done in case of Punjab) and a heavy crack down on militancy in Kashmir? Then let Pandits be back into Kashmir... If we get militancy in control in Kashmir, then we dont have to look at Pakistan for a solution. For likes of Hurriyat, we should just do a refrendum in Kashmir: Do you want to hold Indian Passport or Pakistani Passport? (Third option is not at all acceptable to Pakistan - Azad Kashmir - which if formed would be breeding ground for opium, AK-47s, international terrorism organisations) People who say Pakistani passport should be put on the no-man's land and let them cross over to pakistan or be killed by their brethren Rangers. After doing all this, do a plebiscite for once and all.....Correct the mistake that our beloved womaniser Nehru did. |
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00001354 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 26 of 59 ) I agree substantially with the proposal set forth by Outlook for the solution of Kashmir problem. The Indian Government should prepare its people for the idea that the current LOC should become the Permanent International Boundary between the two countries. Other details can be worked out as progess is made. This will put the onus of responsibility on Pakistan to suggest something more constructive if it can not accept what is proposed by India. Besides this, India will gain widespread international support for its position. |
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shivab 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 27 of 59 ) i |
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shivab 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 28 of 59 ) I keep seeing in various messages that Pakistan cannot afford to sustain the proxy war in Kashmir because of its poor finances. That's hardly true. What do you think a collapsed country like Pakistan with pathetic law-enforcing institutions resulting in a blatant flouting of basic laws that govern human rights and freedom of expression will do to finance its covert war? Obviously something illegal. Pakistan, as we all know, has a big illegal drug trade and can also influence cultivation of heinous substances in Afghanistan which is a big narcotic den.This is where the money comes from. Further, Pakistan's economy is not collapsing because of its Kashmir policies but because of lack of a stable government,total lawlessness,hawkish fundamentalism opposed to any semblance of modernism, emigration of a visionary middle class etc. Thus Pakistan will fail by itself because it does not have its basic institutions steeped in principles of faith and justice or because those ephemeral institutions that still try to uphold the law are not being given the chance to do so and not because of Kashmir. If this continues, I see Pakistan slipping into anarchy. This is fairly evident from the efflux of Pakistan's middle class to foreign lands. A well-behaved,law abiding and visionary middle class is absolutely essential for the growth of any nation. Pakistan will do well to address this problem. Otherwise it will see most of its businesses conducted in foreign lands, including India which actually means that Pakistan will be tilting the balance of power more and more toward India even if is not willing to admit it. |
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subla 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 29 of 59 ) i have been reading all the mails in outlook, and the suggestions the outlook has made for the solution of kashmir.making loc the international border is not going to solve the issue, how are you going to satisfy people of the valley from this part of loc. in these 10 years of insurgency 80 thousand people have died so far and on an average 15 people die every day.this is a problem created by the goverment of india through rigging of elections, providing no employment to the youth no development at all.forcing dr. farooq abdullah as chief minester on the kasmiri throats is an added insult.i for the past 10 years have never heard any politician talking about the suffering of muslims of the valley. i always read about hindus of kashmir their sufferingsand hardships, but never ever heard of anybody in india talk about the mulims no sympathy for their hardships.the only way of ending the insurgency in kashmir is to win the hearts of people of kashmir, not supress the feelings.the indian goverment should find ways of winning the people over |
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ballur 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 30 of 59 ) Esteemed readers, I am taking this opportunity of free speech column and presenting some views about kashmir.The blood flows and will continue to flow in the valley unless and until the indian govt takes some stringent measures. There is no need to pursue friendship with pseudo democratic countries like pakistan and it would be in the interest of the country and the kashmiris that India snaps all its diplomatic ties with Pakistan andthen focus its point in counteracting with cross-border terrorism.By doing so It can ensure peace and prosperity. |
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whatho 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 31 of 59 ) Well, I think this whole business is upto the Kashmiris themselves. Of course, who constitute Kashmiris and who do not MAY become another issue. What I worry about most is - to what end are we wasting our young soldiers there ? For some land ? National pride ? To what end are we spending crores of taxpayers' money on defending Kashmir ? What I also worry about is our will to solve the problem - I do not think for a moment that the Indian armed forces are incapable of solving the problem. I strongly believe that given a free hand, Indian armed forces could rid Kashmir of terrorists in a year and seal the whole border - this side or the other side of the LoC. Let us assume the Kashmiris vote for independence (a separate country). Let us also assume that India agrees to it. Will Pakistan ? I do not hold anything against Pakistan. They have their point of view - though I completely disagree with it. |
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ap 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 32 of 59 ) Flood the valley with 5-6millions of Indian citizens some with AK47s to hunt paki terrorists and be rewarded with land(We are a billion strong), Pakis have done that in POK, China has done the same in their Xzjang province to scuttel seperatist's . Why not India? change the demographic makeup of kashmir and peace will arrive. Paki terrorists are killing chaseing away non-pro paki muslims , hindus etc.. for last 10 yrs.India must reverse that 100 times over. Send the Pro-Paki's to POK . It will be better for kashmiri who will benifit too from investment . Who are the stupid "freedom wanting" kashmiri kidding? they will be annexed by pakis to create talabini afganistani type state should any crap like soft boarder or autonomus nonsense is pussyfooted with? Some nit wits 'chamberlin types' that advocate kashmir autonomy etc... needs to slap themselves out of complacency . Plus Army must Terrorise the "terrorist"!! So flood it with 5million odd Indians and end of story , every one lives better. Anything else is just half bakes scatter brain talk .A Like it or not if we want a solution flooding kashmir with indians is the solution. After all every indian artile 370 is against Indian intrests so scrap it after Kashmir is an Indian state , why are kashmiri any special than any other Indian citizen?. Every Indian citizen is paying for kashmiri subsudies for last 50yrs from tax money. Why cant we not buy land etc..???So cut the crap and flood the state. Kashmir problem will be resolved in 10yrs max. |
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khan 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 33 of 59 ) watho, I agree that the Indian arrogance in Kashmir is draining Indian tax payers money, and sidelinimg much important social issues, like, Poverty, Illeteracy, Disease and rural upliftment. You are right that, Kashmir should be given the right to self determination, and they had been fighting from the beginning for self determination and not for anything else. If India, gives Kashmiris what they want, "Self Determination", (and this is what we promised them when we first took Kashmiri territory into independant India), then Pakistan has no bussiness, it will put its tail between its legs go away. All the millitants will automatically go back where they came from. But, instead of doing this, the Indian army has created a reign of terror in the valley. Firing at peaceful protestors, then firing at the funeral processions of the protestors that they killed the day before, and then beating up journalists that cover these incidents and destroying their cameras and snatching away any evidence from them, and forcing the journalists to jump from the bridge into the river to escape the brutality of Indian forces. |
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Aman 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 34 of 59 ) I am based in Delhi and have been involved in a lot of discussions about the complex relation of India and Pakistan. In India people are generally two types in reference to their views about Pakistan. One who believes that Pakistan should be dealt with love and care, after all we are same type of people, Brothers and Pakistan will be ours, one day. The second are who believes that creation of Pakistan was a big mistake, it’s a terrorist state, no need show any love towards it, Enemy and will be ours, one day. I feel that Pakistanis by and large are suspicious of both type of Indians and they have reason for that. They feel that Indians want to finish their Nation in one or the other way. What we need in India is third type of Indians who are not biased by this stupid notion that India and Pakistan is one Nation. We need to accept this fact that Pakistan is like any other nation for us and we should deal with it like one Nation deals with another Nation. Now comes the big question of Kashmir?? Let me tell you a small discussion, which I had with my friend Shahid during Babri Masjid heydays in 1991. According to him that majority of Muslims by and large has no problem in giving Babri Masjid. But what they fear is the attitude and dream of Hindu fundamentalists. You give them an inch and they will ask you a yard. They will not be satisfied till the time they will not throw out every Muslim out of their Hindu Rashtra. We have no choice but to fight for our survival and if it so than why not on Babri Masjid? It is true for Kashmir too. A lot of Indians by and large has no problem in giving Kashmir. But what they fear is the attitude and dream of Muslim fundamentalists in and around Pakistan (Osama has said that Kashmir is the Gateway for India). You give them an inch and they will ask you a yard. They will not be satisfied till the time they will not make complete India in to a Muslim state. We have no choice but to fight for survival of our Nation and if it so than why not in Kashmir? Till the time these fears and these suspicions are there, I am afraid to say that we will not be able to live peacefully with each other. |
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susat 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 35 of 59 ) A referendum should be held where Kashmiris are allowed to voice their opinion-whether they want to be independent, whether they want to join India or Pakistan. I think it is false patriotism to hold on to a state and let thousands of innocent lives to be killed. If we keep fighting for the state, the fight will just go on and on and there will never be an end to it because our neighbour is equally adamant. The best bet would be to consult among each other and have a free and fair vote where the voice of the people of Kashmir can be heard. Violence or war is not the answer for peace and there is no harm in being a tolerant and non-violent country. We would be respected more for our non-violence than our fundamentalist and violent attitudes. |
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susat 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 36 of 59 ) I have a few questions and I hope I get replies for it: 1. Why do we need Kashmir or why are we fighting for Kashmir? a.Is it for our national ego or pride? b.Is it for its beauty-tourism and economy? 2.How valid is our claim to Kashmir? 3.Are we sympathetic to the people of Kashmir with all the brutal killings going? 4.Can Kashmir ever return to normal where people can walk and talk freely and war is not a daily event? |
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ntripath 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 37 of 59 ) Hi Susat! I don't want to go onto the details of your questions. There were few problems by India and that is why we are paying for it. After all sons have to pay for the fathers. So we are paying. The problem of KASHMIR is due to the hypocracy of our political leaders and timidity of our bureaucrates! No PM is ready to take bold decision and same is true for bureaucartse. The reason is that both are coward and baseless. Our PM is busy in issuing beautifully articualted phrases and sentences. Don't you read those sentences in news paper evry day. Secondaly our leaders are totally shameless. Probably because it is the basic quality for a leader in present India. "jIYO OUR JINO DO.." policy is also playing its role. The timid and coward approach of our politicians and bureaucrates have pull down the national pride of India. So don't worry that a weak country like Pakistan is teaching a lesson , just by goondagardi. |
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ntripath 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 38 of 59 ) We talk Nehru did it..what our government is doing now!! They say USA asked us to show restriant during Kargil!What a funny things..what USA should tell you ..it is your problem and you should know how to tackle it!!! Now they have started saying look how people supported President in USA in this hour of crisis and we in India cririsise our government !!!! Why don't our politicians see the president took a proper decision after weeks .On the other hand in India our government has issued a very bold letter to president of USA.I am sure he will be loughing in USA after reading it. A country is unable to tackle a coward country like Pakistan....It is shameful for every Indian that we are having such an impotent government.It is unfortunate that an impotent BJP has replaced an Impotent Congress. So we should all feel very shameful. |
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asdesai 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 39 of 59 ) My answer to Susat and ntripath. Answer is simple. Those who don't want to live in India are free to go. We are not going to give anyone our land-Kashmir. And if they don't go then take a strict military action on them. Ami |
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rcb 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 40 of 59 ) It seems simple enough -A plebicite, or as susat calls it a 'referendum' should be held in Kashmir without delay. Pakistan and India should mutually agree that one or the other would peacefully let go on the basis of the outcome. I suspect however, that if it were just between governments it might possibly be that easy. The problem though comes with fundamentalists, and fanatics (on both sides)who dont want and will not allow a peaceful solution. As long as there are fanatics and fundamentalists unwilling to let go -the 'Kashmir issue' will remain. (and there will always be fundamentalists -what does that say then....?) !!! |
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btw 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 41 of 59 ) Flood the valley with 10-20millions of Indian citizens some with AK47s to hunt paki terrorists and be rewarded with land(We are a billion strong), Pakis have done that in POK, China has done the same in their Xzjang province to scuttel seperatist's . Why not India? change the demographic makeup of kashmir and peace will arrive. Paki terrorists are killing chaseing away non-pro paki muslims , hindus etc.. for last 10 yrs.India must reverse that 100 times over. Send the Pro-Paki's to POK . It will be better for kashmiri who will benifit too from investment . Who are the stupid "freedom wanting" kashmiri kidding? they will be annexed by pakis to create talabini afganistani type state should any crap like soft boarder or autonomus nonsense is pussyfooted with? Some nit wits 'Neville chamberlin types' that advocate appeasement towards kashmir autonomy etc... needs to slap themselves out of complacency and see it for what it is "Pakistan's undecleared foreign policy". Plus Army must Terrorise the "terrorist"!! So flood it with 5million odd Indians and end of story , every one lives better. Anything else is just half bakes scatter brain talk . Like it or not if we want a solution flooding kashmir with indians is the solution. After all every indian artile 370 is against Indian intrests so scrap it after Kashmir is an Indian state , why are kashmiri any special than any other Indian citizen?. Every Indian citizen is paying for kashmiri subsudies for last 50yrs from tax money. Why cant we not buy land etc..???So cut the crap and flood the state. Kashmir problem will be resolved in 10yrs max. Pakis are settling afgans in POK , China is settling Han people in Tibet and Xziang to change demographics and scuttel seperatist activities. |
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ap 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 42 of 59 ) Future belongs to secular , plurastic, democracy , not some peverted 'jihad' hell holes like 'taliban' pakistan has been busy promoteing . So is pakistan going to get some land in Kashmir under any 'pretext'? Hell No! If pakistan is smart it may be want to dump the 'maddrassa' feed junk , and fast. |
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rkbhuyan 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 43 of 59 ) Outlook solutions are realistics. But it depends on containing fanatics. Good news is that Mushraff has taken the bold step to contain fundamentalists due to circumstances. If fundamentalists win, the consequences are very costly for Pakistan, India and world. In fact an economically progressive and modern Pakistan is NECESSARY for India. India should help him in this regard whatever way possible. |
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rav666 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 44 of 59 ) In fact an economically progressive and modern Pakistan is NECESSARY for India. Glad to hear a sane voice out here - amidst the medivial din. |
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kmahajan 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 45 of 59 ) I agree with btw. Flood the Kashmir Valley with Indian Muslims and let them keep guns and provide them incentives. Do it for twenty years and say OK we agree for plebicite. How many true Kashmiri's do you think we have in POK?? Powers do not sit and complain they do things in logical way. If we diversify valley terrorism will dye its own death. ( of course if leaders do no want to play politics and make it only country where our own people are refugees . Their fault being Hindus) Whom are we kidding that by having plebicite everything will be normal. When we do not agree even on the fairness of our panchayat election how the hack will people from two different countries agree? Come on India be a Man( Pleaseeeeeeeeee Once) in centuries and do something so that we can be proud of. All the solutions coming are coming from intellegentia sitting in AC rooms and do not have anything to loose on ground zero. Or if we can not do this make Kashmir independent. At least will have little less border to share with Pakistan |
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vishal4u 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 46 of 59 ) i want war against pakistan |
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luvvmann 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 47 of 59 ) pakistan is a country born out of hatred.they are occupying land that really belongs to india. they have kicked all the hindus and sikhs out of pakistan, while the muslim population in india is living peacefully under a secular constitution that is the most modern and liberal in the world.pakistan should be militarily defeated and broken into small pieces, so that, all people in the indian sub-continent can live peacefully. india should liberate nanak's birthplace and reclaim land that belongs to the hindus and sikhs. to hell with pakistani bastards. |
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saumya22 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 48 of 59 ) solving the problem of kashmir is in musharraf ' hands stop the terrorism. stop trainng,funding disarm every person in kashmir. all the pakistanis should get out of kashmir(only kashmiris can stay,incuding hindus) include the part occupied by china. then let the kashmiris and india decide what they want to do. the best possible way to ease tensions between the countries is to make the loc the permanent line of conntrol. and the land under china should be given to india . the have a democratic election there. but all this is possible only if pakistan ralises that to survive in this world,they need to have friendly relations with india and vice versa,and religios fundamentalism will have to stop,bring in democracy, and peace in their own country. guys forget the past ,we need to look at the future an future whicg is good for everywhere, i for one belive that earth is my homeland. |
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saumya22 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 49 of 59 ) guys are u not happy that pakistan was formed ,i am bcos look at what would have happened to our country.we have only one kashmir now,but it would have been manyif it were no for gandhiji. that shows how intelligent gandhiji was |
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luvvmann 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 50 of 59 ) saumya22, sorry you are wrong. gandhi was a foolish man when it came to pakistan. he was more interested in his position in history than that of india. gandhi thought partition was a mistake (in a way it was)and did everything possible to cajole the muslims. patel and nehru accepted it as inevitable. the fact is india should never have recognized pakistan until it started to behave itself. we should have always laid claim to the land as it belongs to us, all indians. pakistan has murdered, raped, and kicked the hindu/sikh population in that piece of territory called pakistan. india should demand land from pakistan and take it forcibly to resettle these people.nothing less. pakistani fanatics understand only one language - military strength. we should make life a hell for pakistan until it bends and lives in fear of india. break pakistan into pieces and small banana republics and keep an eye on these miserable people for ever. the same goes for bangladesh, they are fanatics too. don't forget that. either you keep an eye on them and take swift action or you will perish. learn from history - it is the best teacher. |
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Viking 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 51 of 59 ) the biggest mistake we are making is that we've been giving extremely undue and unnecessary importance to pakistan. see the zeal with which every bellicose nonsense from across our border is echoed here by our own brave ministerial gems. didn't we all see the manner in which our media fawned upon that rogue general when he was invited to agra. why are we whining on every world forum that pakistan is the root cause of all our problems ? why are we lamenting to every visiting dignitary about this "cross-border terrorism" bull$hit ? why are we so viciously obsessed with pakistan and still detest "being equated with" pakistan. a rougue state like pakistan couldn't ask for more. they have the unbridled attention of a giant neighbour whom they are "bleeding slowly". they are being equated with a so-called "regional-superpower". Its time we kick our unruly neighbour to oblivion: by collectively ignoring its existence. its time to ask the kinds of advani, fernandes to shut up making noises about pakistan - bellicose or otherwise. its time to ask the peaceniks like vajpayee and jaswant to stop whining and moaning about the cross-border terrorism or such other crap. its time to ask the media to stop giving prominence to half-baked nonsenical statements on kashmir "supposedly supporting the indian line" by even obscure "western" leaders. lets talk to the kashmiris. lets reach out to our other neighbours. let us show that our other neighbours are more important to us. lets quietly pack the jehadis to "martyrdom". lets silently flatten the pakis posts across the loc. if we have even an iota of ambition to be a regional super-power its time we start behaving like one. we have much more important things to do than engaging in war of words with low-life pests and degrading ourselves. |
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rbx187 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 52 of 59 ) now there is only one solution the kashmir problem that is war. pakistan must be totally defeated in the next war. none of the stalemate crap, complete victory should be the motto of the indian armed forces. it must disarmed and not dismeembered. dismembering would cause bigger problems. pakistan occupied kashmir should be taken back. the pandits of kashmir should be given back their land. pakistan's military must be destoryed as with the whole state and new state should be established like the US did with Japan after WW II. for once the people of the subcontinent deserve to live in peace. peace will only come through war. |
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rsajan 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 53 of 59 ) The Kashmir problem will be solved once Priyanka Gandhi and the Bhutto/Sardari kids come to power on either side. |
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ahmed 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 54 of 59 ) I dont think Kashmir problem will be solved by Gandhi/Bhotto kids. Wishful thinking. Originally the problem was created by Gandhi himself. When there was partition, Gandhi should have asked all muslims in India to go to Pakistan and declare India as a hindu state. He did not do it, and all Indians are now suffering including the muslims in India. |
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luvvmann 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 55 of 59 ) ahmed is absolutely correct. he is truly a muslim speaking the truth. my hats off to him. keeping muslims in india was a great mistake. hindus are fools and they will suffer for it. as they refuse to learn from history they are condemned to suffer. as they are selfish they will suffer. as they are cowards they will suffer. no people can put up with the insults thrown at them as hindus, hence they will suffer. the fault does not lie entirely with the muslim invaders. hindu cowards who did not defend their country then and even now will suffer. until the hindus rise up and face the truth about muslim belligerence communalism and violence, they will suffer. fight to the finish and throw the muslim communalists out of india. tghose muslims who love india should stay in brotherly love for the hindus. hindu communists and traitors should be hanged before the communal muslims are hanged. because traitors are bigger scum than enemies. |
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mb123 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 56 of 59 ) Kashmir problem started in 1947.atleast seeds were sown at that time.First person who is responsible for this is M.K.gandhi,2nd is J.L.Nehru,3rd is Jinha,4th is we all. How we are responsible? problem starts with us ,i.e. it lies in our minds.is it not our mind which differentiates a human being from other? all those polititions for the greed of power misled poor and illiterate people. all muslims and hindus were misguided by them.they had a personal mission.to become P.M.,father of nation ,presidents. now if we are really interested in the solution of this problem.If we are really moved by tragedy that is going on.we will have to do something a totally different kind of mind ,that undestand what is compassion. Otherwise there will be several kashmirs all around. first they will be divided then,we will also be divided ourselves .are we interested to solve this problem? |
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yagacho 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 57 of 59 ) ahmed, this is reply to your posting. india was, is and will remain a secular state. that's what the constitution states and that is what suits an average indian. religous extremism has never been a part of indian culture,and i am quiet sure will never be,no matter how hard saffron brigade tries. i am a muslim, born in india and that fact remains. struggle,i am willing to take but i have no regrets that my grandfather decided to stay in india during partition. ahmed, i have serious doubt that this is your real name.. |
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maky 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 58 of 59 ) India had a brilliant chance in 1971 to settle Kashmir problem once and for all.Unfortunately what prevailed in mind of Indira Gandhi I don't know but what she settled for was only Shimla Accord.This was a golden chance missed as we had thier 90000 troops as POWs and 5000 sq km area.May be Indira had Nobel Peace Prize in mind like Gandhi had same in his mind in 1947. I urge all people named Gandhi to change their identities to avoid ignominy. |
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Karapall 7/23/2001 4:47:11 PM ( 59 of 59 ) yagacho, If religious extremism has not been part of Indian culture, then maybe a good muslim like yourself could explain the basis for all the terrorist acts in India by islamic terrorists who originate from pakistan, and are given support by Indian muslims. Dont try the usual bogus comparison between these terrorists and the hindus who are fighting for their rights in India. Hindu groups have never committed terrorist acts anywhere, period. |
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