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Proportional Representation v/s "Winner-take-all" System of Voting Tathagat 11/5/2002 8:42:13 PM appa DeepO bhava What Are The Advantages Of Proportional Representation system of voting?!? Greater voter turn-out (typically 70-90%) because there are more choices for voters -- third, fourth, fifth parties and more from diverse perspectives including more women and minorities elected: 40% women in Sweden, 39% in Norway, 33% in Finland and Denmark, only 12% in the Dubya's Mooorkhistaan.. This leads to: more diverse representation cleaner campaigns run on the issues, not mud-slinging reduced effects of big money "Winner-take-all" is still used in France, Great Britain, and a few of Britain's former colonies that inherited it: the United States, Canada, Pakistan, India and various Caribbean nations. The trend in the world is toward proportional representation and away from "winner take all." Recently the United Kingdom, the grandmother of all "winner take all" democracies, chose to use PR to elect representatives to the European Parliament. In their first elections, Scotland and Wales chose proportional systems. In April 1994 South Africa decided to use PR rather than "winner take all" to form a multi-racial democracy. In 1993 New Zealand, Japan, Russia and Mexico adopted a form of PR. Significantly, all of the former Communist countries, including Russia, have chosen to model their emerging democracies on proportional representation, not the "winner-take-all" model. The Ukraine, which initially chose "winner take all," has now switched to PR. ...Most modern democracies have adopted some form of PR because they recognize the obvious: PR is a fairer, more flexible, more modern electoral system than the antiquated eighteenth century "winner-take-all" method. when do we go 4 it... should we go 4 it... high time we talk about it... Why No women politician, minority leaders or even a media or NGO tolkin' abot PR system of bhotiing... What is Proportional Representation?The Center for Voting and Democracy |
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gandalf 11/5/2002 8:42:13 PM ( 1 of 40 ) Thanks, I did not know about this. The figures sound encouraging and any system that is closer to a tru representation of the people would be a better system. Way to go, though I think is should be combined with Federalisim/independent states in India |
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Karapall 11/5/2002 8:42:13 PM ( 2 of 40 ) Gandalf, this has nothing to do with federalism, you idiot. This has everything to do with selecting the party that is disliked the least rather than the current paradigm of picking the "most popular party". This idea is based partly on Kenneth Arrow's theorems on the mathematical fallacies in implementing multi-party democracy. Do a web search and read about it. Only a two party system can have a truly representative democracy, but is clearly corruptible as is evident in the USA. When you have more than two parties, a party which won a handful of votes can have the same negotiating power as a party that got a majority of the votes. Take a three party system where the parties get 48%, 49%, and 3% of the votes respectively. Under the "mostpopular party wins" paradigm, the party which has 3% of the votes can now be the king maker if the next government is going to be a coalition government. But in the lest disliked party model, along with allowing people to vote for their 2nd, third, and fourth choices. The party is disliked the least by everyone will be the winner, when calculated the points each party wins based on a weighted average. |
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BK 11/5/2002 8:42:13 PM ( 3 of 40 ) "Way to go, though I think is should be combined with Federalisim/independent states in India" This another day dreaming of people who want to see India destroyed and whole identity of hinduism finished. Distribution of power to the lowest level is good thing and we have Panchyat system which dose not disintegrate India but makes her more strong. People who dream and talk about destruction of India can not be Indian but enemy only and if it is done for the spreading of other culture/ religion he is nothing but biggest fanatic who will make even talebani inferior. |
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every 11/5/2002 8:42:13 PM ( 4 of 40 ) Excellence should be the only criteria. In all fields if we are represented by the brightest people , we will be marching ahead. The back door policies so eloquently advocated by some people can only take us back by centuries. I will appreciate if Tathagat enlightens us on how the Islamic states are doing about Proportional Representation ? As far as we know minorities are in terrible state in Islamic countries . Are Shia , Sunnis ,Ahmediyats are equally represented Pakistan ? How are the Hindus and Sikhs being treated in Pakistan and Afghanistan ? When SPOILS OF WAR is religion how can we expect better behaviors from the brain-dead followers ? Tathagat should educate his own brethren. |
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vikram99 11/5/2002 8:42:13 PM ( 5 of 40 ) "....I think is should be combined with Federalisim/independent states in India" Separatist talk again. The real danger to India today is not religion or caste, it is separatist tendencies. India has lived with diff. religions and diff. castes for several centuries, but separatism is a cancer that has to be wiped out at its roots. |
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gandalf 11/5/2002 8:42:13 PM ( 6 of 40 ) "India has lived with diff. religions and diff. castes for several centuries, but separatism is a cancer that has to be wiped out at its roots" Oh really?. Thanks to the British for the concept.. tell me who many times and over how many collective years have Calicut and Calcutta been in the same Kingdom/nation. The cancer is the unmanageable impotent entity with a lodestone of a few states around its neck. What is Portugal, What is Netherlands, even Belgium.. The reson why they are ahead is the ability to compete and cooperate independently. Lets look at a business cycle.. contd |
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gandalf 11/5/2002 8:42:13 PM ( 7 of 40 ) You have a period of innovation and growth which is driven by small companies. These companies merge as they consolidate, after which the stagnate and then again spawn off new nimble companies. This the rule of life. We are the national eqvivalent on a large loss making PSU which is not being privatised.. The discussion though is propotional rep. Dont digress :-) |
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Karapall 11/5/2002 8:42:13 PM ( 8 of 40 ) Gandalf: "You have a period of innovation and growth which is driven by small companies. These companies merge as they consolidate, after which the stagnate and then again spawn off new nimble companies. This the rule of life. " That is the US economy, not Indian economy, you cretin. Sheesh, how the hell do you even tie your shoelaces?? |
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BK 11/5/2002 8:42:13 PM ( 9 of 40 ) "The discussion though is propotional rep. Dont digress :-)" Who raised disintegration issue first? First place which requires true representation is United Nations (UNO) which has become tool of western countries to suck poor and weak countries. Veto should be demolished. |
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vikram99 11/5/2002 8:42:13 PM ( 10 of 40 ) UNO=USO Nothing more, nothing less. UNO acts as an errand boy of USA. And what we are having today is nothing better than the slavery that existed 100-200 years ago. Replace Britain with US and you have the same old wine in a new bottle. UNO, WTO, IMF, HRC, etc., are all tools that aid and ratify the imperialistic policies of the USA and the white people. So, what we need is a 'proportional' representation at a global level first. Disband the UNO and have a global organisation that covers all the countries including USA. But then it is impractical coz USA would bomb the whole globe than be subject to equal status as other countries therein. |
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vikram99 11/5/2002 8:42:13 PM ( 11 of 40 ) gandalf: "Thanks to the British for the concept.. tell me who many times and over how many collective years have Calicut and Calcutta been in the same Kingdom/nation." Another imperialistic canard advocated by the marxist pisspots. Hindus have been even saying in their prayers - 'Gange cha Yamune Chaiva Godavari Saraswathi Namaste Sindhu Kaveri Jalasimin Sannidhim Kuru' The land covering all these rivers have been identified as Bharatha Varsha since time immemorial, you arsehole. Read some books other than those written by the marxist whore Romila Thapar if you want to face reality. But then you are free to remain in your imprinted world of mental slavery and dhimmitude. |
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Karapall 11/5/2002 8:42:13 PM ( 12 of 40 ) vikram: "The land covering all these rivers have been identified as Bharatha Varsha since time immemorial, you arsehole." The extent to which marxist shitheads have been brainwashed by their own propaganda, which flies in the face of facts and publicly available evidence is incredible. |
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gandalf 11/5/2002 8:42:13 PM ( 13 of 40 ) Bunkum.. regarding the prayers.. IF an indonesian includes Mecca and Medina in his prayers does it mean its should be one country.. You are the equvalent of the 'Ummah' dick heads Europe was limited itself withs its own troubles and was defined by multiple trans European Emipres - Roman, Constantinople, Napoleon etc. In fact the first meeting of the east and west was when the Persian king Xerxes invaded or attacked Greece. The moment they became viable independent states they grew exponientially. Today they are regrouping. Competition between our regions will only do us good. A concept of nation hood does not need to be defined by borders. We will not loose our identity/religion etc if we are divided into manageable regions. Today China is growing in double digits and has a Humongous GDP.. Do you know that only 20% of it is exports. The rest in internal and with Taiwan/HK/SEAsia. We cant replicate China.. They had the feudal culture rooted out by communism (but hey you hate communism).. It would be sad if our fate is this snail paced growth, terrible living standards etc.. because of a few facist fools who who have no concept of confidence and self respect. You are just tadpoles in a pond, keeping it as murky as possible as your eyes are sensitive to light.. And balls to the rest of life.. Ah well! |
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gandalf 11/5/2002 8:42:13 PM ( 14 of 40 ) 20% is export to the US |
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Karapall 11/5/2002 8:42:13 PM ( 15 of 40 ) Gandalf: "if an indonesian includes Mecca and Medina in his prayers does it mean its should be one country.. You are the equvalent of the 'Ummah' dick heads" Do you have any brains at all?? Indonesia is NOT CURRENTLY part of Saudi Arabia, so it CERTAINLY does not mean that they should be made into one country. If they WERE ALREADY PART OF THE SAME COUNTRY, then it CERTAINLY does not mean that it has to be broken apart. The borders of states must remain frozen from this point forward if we are to stop many centuries of spilling blood for land. Bigoted, separatist motherfuckers like you want to break India apart because you somehow think that your state will perform better if it is independent, but your contention has no historical basis. The kashmiris wanted to separate from India for whatever reason, and the resulting civil war did not take them forward, it took backwards. Stupid bigoted shitheads like you should stop living in your pro-jihadi separatist dreamland and face reality for a change. |
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gandalf 11/5/2002 8:42:13 PM ( 16 of 40 ) "Do you have any brains at all?? Indonesia is NOT CURRENTLY part of Saudi Arabia, so it CERTAINLY does not mean that they should be made into one country" Bullshit, Before the British, Calicut or coimbatore were not in the same country as Calcuta. Your argumetn was that since some rivers are menioned in a prayer, its legitimate proof that we were one country. Sanghi brainwashing has completely cleaned out there testicular peapod you use to think. Do you have any other argument be it for religion, nationhood, language etc than historical orgasms?. |
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gandalf 11/5/2002 8:42:13 PM ( 17 of 40 ) Is it a dull or uninstructive picture to see a whole people shaking suddenly off the trammels of reason, and running wild after a golden vision, refusing obstinately to believe that it is not real, till, like a deluded hind running after an ignis fatuus, they are plunged into a quagmire? --Charles Mackay, [2]Memoirs of Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds |
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BK 11/5/2002 8:42:13 PM ( 18 of 40 ) "Bullshit, Before the British, Calicut or coimbatore were not in the same country as Calcuta" India undr Ashok was bigger than todays India. Hinduism and Hindu should be looked upon as a race which is one of the oldest race with their original identity. "Char Dham" yatra are in four different locations even before British arrived. There were more kings but as awhole Bharat was linked with one thread of Hinduism. If India was in such a bad shape why Colombus wanted to go to Inida? Why Moguls and British came to India? I feel sorry about brain washed people who not only lost their identity but also proud to have identity of foreign culture , this proves that slavery mentality of Mogul and British Raj is still in many peoples mind. |
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gandalf 11/5/2002 8:42:13 PM ( 19 of 40 ) Hmm Columbus wanted to access the spice capital which was Kerala. Your argument is weak, equal to a European Argument of nationhood because its linked by Christianity, An Greater Middleast linked by Islam or Buddhist Asia as a supperpower.. very weak indead |
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gandalf 11/5/2002 8:42:13 PM ( 20 of 40 ) These type of rational is the favourite of imperialists, facists (remember Germany's reich) and intellectuals. With your logic, shouldn't Srilanka be having at least an iota of support for unification with India?.. Or even simpler, try Nepal.. based on Sanghi logic, Nepal should be merged with Bharat, what say? |
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BK 11/5/2002 8:42:13 PM ( 21 of 40 ) "With your logic, shouldn't Srilanka be having at least an iota of support for unification with India?.. Or even simpler, try Nepal.. " Because of brain washing by imperialstic , its difficult to think otherwise. I ever said to expand the territory based on Hinduism. Imperialism is not and can not be aim of Hinduism. This is where the biggest differnce is between Hinduism vs Islam/ Christianity. It requiers understanding of Hinduism to get out of imperialistic mindset. |
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BK 11/5/2002 8:42:13 PM ( 22 of 40 ) I ever said to READ I never said |
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BK 11/5/2002 8:42:13 PM ( 23 of 40 ) Even if you read Mahabhart or ramayan (even as story) you will realise that Ayodhya is in North and Lanka is in south. Krishna was in Mathura/ Vrindavan and later he was in Dwarka. You ever herad of Takshshila and Nalnda universities? For muslim and christian its important to think in terms of number of people and area under rule of one religion which is not the case for Hinduism. Fact is hinduism was spread from Afgaistan to Cambodia (Biggest Vishnu temple in the world is in Combodia)but never considered as important gain because feeling of ruling over more people and area gives you falls feeling of superiority. Important is spiritualism for elevation of individual soul as truth. So it will be very difficult for christians or muslims to understand this concept. |
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Karapall 11/5/2002 8:42:13 PM ( 24 of 40 ) Gandalf: "Bullshit, Before the British, Calicut or coimbatore were not in the same country as Calcuta." But they are NOW, and this the point, you separatist piece of shit. If you want to go all the way back, we would have to divide india into tiny kingdoms as it was a thousand years ago, which would mean that tamilnadu would have to be broken into smaller countries by your logic. Do you have any brains at all? |
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Karapall 11/5/2002 8:42:13 PM ( 25 of 40 ) Gandalf: "These type of rational is the favourite of imperialists, facists (remember Germany's reich) and intellectuals." Indians should note that this asshole is arguing for the break up of India into smaller countries, and anyone who opposses it is a "fascist, imperiarist, sanghi". This is the true nature of the nehruvian, pseudo-secularist, marxist motherfuckers like Gandalf who have proliferated all of the media in India. |
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Karapall 11/5/2002 8:42:13 PM ( 26 of 40 ) http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=1 6639 Note how the tritorous motherfuckers in the Indian Express are giving more credence to a murderer and a con man who has two police cases pending against him, than they are willing to give to the police's statements. What in the fucking hell is going on in India?? Are we supposed to consider these anti-national, mercenary motherfuckers in the media to be our guardians and our saviors, when these people refuse to condemn PAKISTANI TERRORISTS and instead CONDEMN THE DELHI POLICE WHO SAVED THE LIVES OF INDIANS IN ANSAL BHAVAN. If Indians have this attitude, you should not be surprised if the police does not give a shit for your safety, because they would have a very legitimate right not to risk their lives for the sake of you pseudo-secular, marxist, shitheads. |
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Tathagat 11/5/2002 8:42:13 PM ( 27 of 40 ) appa DeepO bhava "PAKISTANI TERRORISTS and instead CONDEMN THE DELHI POLICE WHO SAVED THE LIVES OF INDIANS IN ANSAL BHAVAN. " ...Ah so the terror scare 4 the people of India on Deepawalii eve was fake... sanad rahe ke yeh dhooort govt... wudn't even spare Deepaawalii day, tried 2 scare its people... 'e not just de facto de jure be-iimaan... but a de facto, de jure jhoootTa... ha ha ha!!! wah re Dr krishna... sach zinda he ab tak... [24 hours on...] the guy is a haunted wanted man... ha! though the lies been busted... wonder they heard... jhooT ke paaNv choTe hote haiN... shak kii dawa Looqmaan hakeem ke paas na thee [damage done :)]... majority of the people reckon that u r a dhoort par excellence MisTer GhaaghwaaNii... n u got no option but 2 discredit him... using abusing state machinery... ;), one more thing... whoever planned n didit must have done a crash course in stupidity... is it decay and decline of the ghaagvaaNii hazaar foxy sick mind... wonder why PM ABV and DePM...[ali baba and 40 thieves.. tresspassers though... looting and sharing the booty... and corrupting the hearts and minds of people... dividing them... ] keep talking Paakisstaan b'coming a terrorist state... hey guys make ooop ur mind... v know u wanna say they ARE a terrorist state... but govt. terrorising its own people an ongoin' process... duh!!! whatever that means... lol... how much more this stupid 'loot' we gonna pootooop with... ?!? |
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Karapall 11/5/2002 8:42:13 PM ( 28 of 40 ) Gandalf: "based on Sanghi logic, Nepal should be merged with Bharat, what say" The fundamental point still eludes you, you fucking cretin. If Nepal was part of India today, hypothetically speaking, then there certainly is no case for Nepal breaking away from India. Similarly, if Nepal and India are separate, there is no reason why they should join, unless there is popular sentiment in both countries to do so. NATIONAL BOUNDARIES CANNOT BE CHANGED TODAY WITHOUT SERIOUS LOSS OF LIVES, you communist piece of shit. Try to get that through your thick skull, even though I know you dont give a shit about a million people dying. |
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Karapall 11/5/2002 8:42:13 PM ( 29 of 40 ) tathagat: "...Ah so the terror scare 4 the people of India on Deepawalii eve was fake... sanad rahe ke yeh dhooort govt... wudn't even spare Deepaawalii day, tried 2 scare its people... " So according your addled stupid mind, it is more likely that all of this was a conspiracy theory in which the BJP killed two people just to scare you and me. According to marxist shitheads like you, THERE IS NO CHANCE THAT PAKISTANI TERRORISTS CAN ATTACK INNOCENT CIVILIANS IN DELHI. Do you remember December 12, 2001? you stupid motherfucker. "'e not just de facto de jure be-iimaan... but a de facto, de jure jhoootTa... ha ha ha!!!" So according to you the pakistani terrorists are more honest than the elected government of India. Wonderful logic, shithead. " wah re Dr krishna... sach zinda he ab tak... [24 hours on...] the guy is a haunted wanted man" He has 2 murder cases pending against him and his family, as was reported in the national dailies. So there is no chance that this "witness" (who was not at ansal bhavan at the time of the shooting) has a bone to pick with the delhi police?? What this asshole Krishna is depending on is the moral support of brainless marxist shitheads like you, and devious congress motherfuckers to support him to embarrass the ruling party. This is what it always boils down to with you motherfuckers. Place you political self-interest over national interest. |
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Karapall 11/5/2002 8:42:13 PM ( 30 of 40 ) It never even occurs to you marxist pieces of shit that by lying about the actual terrorist encounter for political purposes, you are providing the perfect excuse to the pakistani planners of this operation (i.e., General Musharraf) to disavow any knowledge of these terrorists. Do you cretins even understand the implication of your actions? |
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vikram99 11/5/2002 8:42:13 PM ( 31 of 40 ) Gandalf, "if an indonesian includes Mecca and Medina in his prayers does it mean its should be one country.. You are the equvalent of the 'Ummah' dick heads" Again this bastard exhibits his mental retardedness. You pimp, there is a diff. between praying in the land that originated therein and praying for an imperialistic cult that was thrust upon you on a knife edge. Bastard, for a muslim, only the sands of arab matter, only the kaaba matters. Islam which is supposed to kill idol worshippers worships the blackest idol of all - the black stone inside the kaaba. Overnight, it became a pagan cult due to the agreement entered into by mohammad with the religious traders in mecca who were worried that their tourist crowd would stop if islam was implemented. At that time, annual fairs at the kaaba was the source of income for them. And the temple in the kaaba was the centre of pilgrimage for all the arabs. Now, you can scratch your brains (the one behind your trousers) and shake your empty head in disapproval. |
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vikram99 11/5/2002 8:42:13 PM ( 32 of 40 ) Gandalf "based on Sanghi logic, Nepal should be merged with Bharat, what say" You arsehole, you left out pakistan, bangladesh, afghanistan, srilanka and bhutan. Read history again (the correct one, not the masturbation outputs of the marxist whore Romila Thapar) and get open your mouth here. |
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vikram99 11/5/2002 8:42:13 PM ( 33 of 40 ) Karapall, "It never even occurs to you marxist pieces of shit that by lying about the actual terrorist encounter for political purposes, you are providing the perfect excuse to the pakistani planners of this operation...." Correction pal, it DOES occur to these marxist pimps. And they are doing it on purpose. It is not that these cretins are so innocent that they cannot differentiate between terrorists and normal people. They can and they do. And they prefer sucking the dicks of terrorists. And it is their intention, nay, their duty, to provide facilities and infrastructure (not only excuse) to the terrorists to blow up as many hindus as possible. |
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every 11/5/2002 8:42:13 PM ( 34 of 40 ) Kudos to Delhi police . They killed two followers of the Satan , so saved the lives of many Indians. Killing the enemies of India is always a great service to the nation. We Indians must be ready to kill when situation demands it. Those policemen should be rewarded suitably. When the American police finally apprehended the sniper , they are praised and congratulated by all Americans. Our brave policemen killed two brain-dead satans and we don't bother to express our gratitude ! I hope they will keep up the good work. Kill the enemies of India .Kill them who shelter terrorists. Jai Hind. |
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every 11/5/2002 8:42:13 PM ( 35 of 40 ) Reality bites. According to reports only in UP alone there are five thousand Pakistani terrorists. Who are sheltering them ? Killing 2 stray dogs are not enough. We have to kill whole of their clan and also their sympathisers. Otherwise the world will look down upon us as cowards. |
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vikram99 11/5/2002 8:42:13 PM ( 36 of 40 ) every, "According to reports only in UP alone there are five thousand Pakistani terrorists. Who are sheltering them ?" A thorough search of the houses of Kuldip Nayar and Kidwai could be a starting point to flush out the terrorists. You will be surprised to find an equal number of terrorists in the houses of pseudo secularists as in the houses of local muslims. |
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Karapall 11/5/2002 8:42:13 PM ( 37 of 40 ) Never mind. The motherfuckers in the media have completely destroyed what was essentially one sign that all is not completely rotten with Indian law enforcement. I see no reason why Indian cops should even care to do their duty, when these pseudo-secularists consider the police a shade worse than the Lashkar terrorists. India is a shithole country with such shitheads feeding their marxist conspiracist crap to other shitheads who believe everything that is told to them. I am completely disgusted by the behavior all these assholes who have provided much needed succour to pakistani terrorists and their handlers in Rawalpindi. These guys have given the pakis another way to plausibly deny their fueling terrorism on Indian civilians from across the border. People who have the means to leave India should do so. This country is nothing but a septic tank that will burst out in the next couple of decades. |
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Tathagat 11/5/2002 8:42:13 PM ( 38 of 40 ) appa DeepO bhava ...I wondered 4 a while why gandalf and likes try 2 respond and communicate with such closed minded ideologues... frozen in time kind... but now i get it... the more they talk the more they r xposed... so here is me bit... "ROMILA THAPAR, one of India's foremost historians, metes out deserved justice to the communal interpretation of India's history, a subject on which she has written extensively. British contribution to the writing of India's history was baleful in its per iodisation of Indian history as that of the Hindu, Muslim and British periods. Muslim and Hindu communalists took over and constructed two monolithic communities, uniformly hostile, utterly free from diversities, immune to interaction and indifferent to a nationalism transcending the communal divide. Romila Thapar writes: "The tragedy is that actually the study of the past sends us very different messages but we choose not to read them. Indian society has always been a multi-religious, multicultural society where identities have inevitably been multi ple. Such a society is not in itself secular but is conducive to the evolving of a secular society protecting the civil and human rights of all its citizens. Our history in India has been very different from that projected in the two-nation theory and th e Hindutva ideology. If we can read our history with more sensitivity and insight, it would contribute to avoiding a fascist future." |
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vikram99 11/5/2002 8:42:13 PM ( 39 of 40 ) A cretin who calls Romila Thapar, a marxist whore, as a 'foremost' historian is not worth replying. |
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Karapall 11/5/2002 8:42:13 PM ( 40 of 40 ) tathaghat: "...I wondered 4 a while why gandalf and likes try 2 respond and communicate with such closed minded ideologues.." I have followed this Romila Thapar and her marxist cabal's writings. THEY MAKE NO BONES ABOUT THE FACT THAT THEY HAVE TAKEN IT ON THEMSELVES TO "SANITIZE" HISTORY TO "PRESERVE COMMUNAL HARMONY". Marxist shitheads and pseudo-secularists are just pissed off that their lying and deceit has been replaced by something else. How else are they going to create more Kuldip Nayyars, Praful Bidwais and other red-blooded traitors out of the younger generation? |
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