|
|
|
|
Quran, Historical or Divine ?progressive 7/15/2001 11:16:15 PMIn 1972, during the restoration of the Great Mosque of Sana'a, in Yemen, laborers stumbled across a remarkable gravesite, a "paper grave" -- in this case the resting place for, tens of thousands of fragments from close to a thousand different parchment codices of the Qur'an, the Muslim holy scripture. Some of the parchment pages in the Yemeni hoard seemed to date back to the seventh and eighth centuries A.D., or Islam's first two centuries -- they were fragments, in other words, of perhaps the oldest Qur'ans in existence. What's more, some of these fragments revealed small but intriguing aberrations from the standard Qur'anic text. Such aberrations, though not surprising to textual historians, are troublingly at odds with the orthodox Muslim belief that the Qur'an as it has reached us today is quite simply the perfect, timeless, and unchanging Word of God. What the Yemeni Qur'ans seemed to suggest, Puin began to feel, was an evolving text rather than simply the Word of God as revealed in its entirety to the Prophet Muhammad in the seventh century A.D. "To historicize the Qur'an would in effect delegitimize the whole historical experience of the Muslim community," says R. Stephen Humphreys, a professor of Islamic studies at the University of California at Santa Barbara. "The Qur'an is the charter for the community, the document that called it into existence. And ideally -- though obviously not always in reality -- Islamic history has been the effort to pursue and work out the commandments of the Qur'an in human life. If the Qur'an is a historical document, then the whole Islamic struggle of fourteen centuries is effectively meaningless." http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/99jan/koran.htm |
 |
| Messages |
|
Vijay 7/15/2001 11:16:15 PM ( 1 of 24 ) I Think I`m MAD God (Allah in Arabic) rules supreme: he is the all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-merciful Being who has created the world and its creatures; he sends messages and laws through prophets to help guide human existence; and, at a time in the future known only to him, he will bring about the end of the world and the Day of Judgment. |
|
pundit21 7/15/2001 11:16:15 PM ( 2 of 24 ) The quran is a very practical and forward thinking document for the 7th century. It is chock full of rules - do this - dont do this - this pleases Allah - this pisses him off etc etc - clearly such a document could only have come from the mind of a man (albeit a very brilliant and talented writer and poet). The document borrows heavily from orthodox Judaism (circumcision, forbidding the flesh of swine) and also from the Babylonians (Code of Hammurabi - eye for an eye / tooth for a tooth philosophy - this is also the law of Moses) and from Christianity (the return of Christ on the day of Judgement). I find many of its tenets unoriginal and therefore discount a divine source for its origin. The Quran is also slightly inconsitent - for example the Quran talks about the fair treatment of slaves - yet nowhere does it make a strong statement saying that taking of slaves itself is evil. The Quran in several Suras says that its OK to be friends with Christians yet in one Sura it clearly says dont trust Christians. How can a document like this have come from God. The Quran also paints Allah as rather capricious - easily pleased one moment, displeased the next. Some of the things that upset him are rather small and it kinda makes you wonder why He is so touchy (must be tough living in Paradise but I digress....) This being said there are certain fantastic aspects of the Quran. Quranic law is actually quite futuristic - the idea of cleanliness (washing before prayer), structured alms giving, the concept of a universal brotherhood, respect for women etc were all very radical ideas. It took the Europeans several centuries to realize the power and efficacy of these ideas on society. The problem as I see it is that because Muslims believe the Quran is divine they try so hard to apply all of it to the mordern world. CLearly some of it is just not applicable anymore as secular laws are far more over reaching and just than any quranic law. For example womens rights are far better enshrined in secular law than in any law of the Quran. Islamic laws around eating and handling of foods (Halal) are far lower in standard than the laws passed by man made bodies like the Dept of Health or the FDA. |
|
Tathagat 7/15/2001 11:16:15 PM ( 3 of 24 ) appa DeepO bhava ... these books are dated... there is no god, so he/she wrote no book... Hundreds of facts have been found in these three hundred years after Galileo which go against the Bible, which go against the Qur'an, which go against the Vedas...which go against every religious scripture in the world. And that proves that these books have not been written by God, or written by the only begotten son of God, Jesus Christ, or by prophets like Mohammed or Moses who represent God. And they are the messengers.... Certainly these messages are their imagination. All these holy scriptures are full of common sense, not of any scientific inquiry, nor of any spiritual inquiry. It is so strange to read the holy scriptures. They look such rubbish that even newspapers seem to be more important. And if God is writing, or his special messengers are writing these scriptures, they cannot be counted sane. My whole understanding is that all these prophets and messiahs and avataras and tirthankaras - the founders of all the religions - are basically megalomaniacs, great egoists. This is the greatest ego in the world, that you are related with God in a manner nobody else is related. That's why Jesus excludes the idea that there is another son, another brother to him, or another sister. God has only one begotten son and that is Jesus Christ. Why does Mohammed close the doors - "I am the last prophet of God; now there will be no more prophets coming. So the holy Qur'an is the final message from God; no correction can be made in it." But he himself corrected it, and he himself accepted that he was inspired by the devil. Religions have been repressing truths, and now it is time that the truth should be declared, freedom should be declared, individuality should be declared. Man has lived under slavery long enough. The night has been too long; a new dawn is needed. A new man is needed, a new humanity is needed, and that humanity necessarily needs all these so-called religions to disappear from the earth. |
|
Tathagat 7/15/2001 11:16:15 PM ( 4 of 24 ) appa DeepO bhava read somewhere... behind the Satanic Verses... beyond so much of confusion... in it Rushdie simply stated a historical fact, that a few of the verses which Mohammed wrote in an earlier version of the Qur'an he dropped later on saying that he had been inspired by the devil to write these verses. Now, this is a historical fact, it is not Salman Rushdie's imagination. Why should he ask forgiveness? He should have said, "Give me the reasons," and he would have put these fanatics into a corner, because they cannot say what really is the problem. I want you to understand it because that will give you an insight into the murderous instinct of all the religions. This does not make any sense because it is a well-established fact, accepted by Mohammedan scholars for centuries, that a few verses have been dropped. And the statement of Mohammed is well known to those who have ever studied the Qur'an and the history of Islam. If anybody is at fault it is Mohammed, not Rushdie. So they cannot really say these are the verses that are creating trouble, because then immediately the question arises that they are historical facts. So nobody has said what the problem is. The problem is that if Mohammed can be influenced by the devil, and he withdraws a few verses as the devil's inspired verses, that makes a crack in the whole fanatic idea that the Qur'an is infallible, that Mohammed is God's only paigHambar, only authentic prophet. "One God, one prophet Mohammed, and one holy book the Qur'an" - these are the three basic principles of Mohammedanism. Accepting the fact that Mohammed could be influenced by the devil and could not recognize it for many years makes the whole Qur'an dubious, makes the prophet Mohammed fallible. These are the reasons hidden behind, implied, and they cannot say why they are so angry. They are angry because if the whole world knows that Mohammed could be deceived by the devil, then he is not a perfect prophet of God - what about the other verses in the Qur'an? Who knows which verses are inspired by the devil, which verses are inspired by God? Just to avoid this implication becoming clear to everybody, these people are getting mad. |
|
khan 7/15/2001 11:16:15 PM ( 5 of 24 ) A lot of people think that the Quran was written by a man, very brilliant and talented writer and poet, but contrary to this the truth is (as universally accepted by all historians) that Prophet Mohammed (peace be on him) was an illeterate man. He did not know how to read and write. There was no way he could compose such a literary and poetic marvel, the quran is. Some others feel that the Quran borrows heavily from Mosaic and biblical laws, but contrary to this Quran unequivocally rejects the basic tenet of christianity, that Prophet Jesus(peace be on him) is God's son. If it had to borrow from the bible, then how can it dare such a big declaration against chrsitianity. Some others feel that Quran teaches laws like eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth philosophy, although I am not sure why people feel this, as I have never come across such teachings from the Quran, on the contrary there are scores of verses that call for restraint, asking its followers not to start hostilities first, honour the treaties made with others, to provide justice to those who are weak and suppressed. The rich are to provide for the poor. The but contrary to this the whole Quran teaches that all humans are created equal, those who do good deeds are morally and spiritually greater than the ones who do evil. It wiped away racism and bigotry of all kind among its followers by its beautiful teachings. Quran was greatest liberator of women. It elavated the status of women form a mere possession (as was in those times and is still the tradition in some pagan religions) to an equal partner in the society and in the next world. It gave women the right to decide her marriage, right to initaite divorce, right to get dower from her husband at the time of marriage, right to own property, right to inheritance, right to enter into bussiness transactions. And all this 14 centuries ago. All these clearly point to the divine origin of Quran. As for some objections to Quran not stopping slavery but only enjoining good treatment of slaves. The fact is in no other civilization you will find slave dynasties, as there were in Islam. There were slave dynasties that ruled the people in muslim lands. Now if Quran can make slaves as kings then I do not see what more it needed to do. Muslims did have slaves but their religion required them to treat slaves like their own family members, they were clothed like their masters and they ate with their masters. And the masters were instructed not to give difficult tasks to the slaves, if they had difficult tasks the masters ought to help them out. The slaves were given the right to earn money and work their way out of slavery. These strict rules elevated the social status of slaves from commodities to kings, and very soon slavery was mostly wiped out. Contrast this with the slavery that was practiced in the enlightened world called America, a thousand centuries after the Quran's emancipation of slaves. All these clearly point to the divine origin of Quran. The proof of the pie is in eating it. Unfortunately, today few muslims ignorant of the Quran and its teachings, continue to practice the old traditions of their lands that are steeped in bigotry and male chavunism. These people illeterate and ignorant about Glorious Quran bring disgrace to its teaching and its rich heritage. Today there is a need to revive the virtues of Quran, and the muslim scholars and leaders are taking up this task albeit very slowly, but steadily. And until they succeed its difficult to remove the stereotypes about Quran. |
|
khan 7/15/2001 11:16:15 PM ( 6 of 24 ) Another indicator that the Quran has divine origins, is in the sceintific phenomena it discusses that are only prooved by scientific discoveries. The Quran speaks about mountains, how they are below the surface. It speaks about deep seas and internal waves in the ocean. It speaks the raising and formation of clouds that give rain. It speaks about the miscroscopic origin of humans, the embryonic development, deep inside the womb of women. It speaks bout the heavenly bodies and their fixed orbits, about the stars, and about the createion of universe and its continuing expansion. All these phenomena was either recently discovered or was prooved by recent observati2ons, but was written in Quran 14 centuries ago. Also there was no way to investigate this phenomena until recently without the aid of the recent discoveries of microscopes, radio telescopes, deep divng equipment, SONAR detectors, weather satellites etc. I am not an expert at science, but I would suggest those who want to pursue this to read more on the subject. One website that deals with the subject that is short and precise with cross references from scientists is: http://www.islam-guide.com To a careful, honest and unbiased investigator there is ample proof of the divine origins of the Quran. |
|
nalin 7/15/2001 11:16:15 PM ( 7 of 24 ) The references to the scientific content of the Quran has been somewhat exaggerated. Much of Arab science came from India - after the conquest of Sindh. Prior to the Islamic conquests - India was the world's leader in science, mathematics and philosophy. Here is what Said Al-Andalusi, an 11th C Spanish scholar, court historian and chronicler wrote then: "Among the nations, during the course of centuries and throughout the passage of time, India was known as the mine of wisdom and the fountainhead of justice and good government and the Indians were credited with excellent intellects, exalted ideas, universal maxims, rare inventions and wonderful talents ... They have studied arithmetic and geometry. They have also acquired copious and abundant knowledge of the movements of the stars, the secrets of the celestial sphere and all other kinds of mathematical sciences. Moreover, of all the peoples they are the most learned in the science of medicine and thoroughly informed about the properties of drugs, the nature of composite elements and peculiarities of the existing things." (Abu'l-Qasim's comments on India in Tabaqat al-Umam (Categories of Nations)) |
|
khan 7/15/2001 11:16:15 PM ( 8 of 24 ) Nalin, I have written about the miracles of nature referred to in the Quran, before science could discover it. I am not talking of Arabs, who came to power after the Quran was revealed, and not before it. I do not contradict that India had scientific wisdom prior to rise of the Arabs and I do not contradict that Arabs learnt the existing sciences from all the great civilizations of their time including India. They took this knowledge to the next level, and became the world leaders in science, technology and philosophy, before passing the distinction to Europe during the Reneissance. try: http://www.islam-guide.com/ |
|
khan 7/15/2001 11:16:15 PM ( 9 of 24 ) The Quran Timeline, And why the Quran cannot be tampered with. When was Prophet Muhammad (peace be on him) born? In the year 570, in the city of Mecca. Was he a great Scholar or a Poet? No, Prophet Muhammad was an illeterate man, but was known for his honesty and trustworthiness in his city. When did he start recieving the revelations of Quran? At the age of 40 How long was the Quran revealed? For a period of 23 years When did the revelation of the Quran end? Few months before the death of Prophet Muhammad (peace be on him). How was the Quran compiled? The Quran was compiled as per the instructions of Prophet Muhammad and was memorized by many companions. |
|
khan 7/15/2001 11:16:15 PM ( 10 of 24 ) continued... Who is a 'Hafiz' in Islam? A person who memorizes the entire Quran is called a Hafiz. Who was the first Hafiz of Quran? The Prophet himself memorized the entire Quran as it was revealed, and was himself the first Hafiz. Was there any other Hafiz then? Yes, some companions of the Prophet memorized the entire Quran, and all others memorized parts of it. How many companions were Hafiz (who memorized the entire Quran) at the time of the Prophet's death? There were 22 companions who had memorized the entire Quran at the time of the Prophets death. When did Prophet Muhammad (peace be on him) die? In the year 632 |
|
khan 7/15/2001 11:16:15 PM ( 11 of 24 ) Who was chosen the muslim leader after the Prophet''s death? Hazrat Abu Bakr became the first Caliph of Islam. Who ordered the compilation of the Quran in the written form? Hazrat Abu Bakr When did Hazrat Abu Bakr die? In the year 634 Who succeeded Abu Bakr as Caliphs? Hazrat Omar, Hazrat Osman and Hazrat Ali Who ordered the compilation of the Quran in a simpler Arabic script containing vowels, thereby making it easy to read? Caliph Osman When did Caliph Osman die? In the year 656 Is there any copy of Quran existing today, that was compiled by Caliph Osman? Yes, there are two copies existing till today, One is in Tashkent and another is in a Museum in Istanbul, Turkey. |
|
Eminem 7/15/2001 11:16:15 PM ( 12 of 24 ) Khan , thanks for a very useful description. Am a non believer and so please appreciate my questions in the proper light. I look forward to your comments. On what authority do you confidently state that the Qur'an was memorised by other people ? How reliable is the authority ? Is the authority divinely inspired? What is the proof of the inspiration ? Did the prophet (pbuh) at any time require deletion of a few words ? If so Why ?Why did Hasrat Osman order the compilation of the Quran in a simpler Arabic script containing vowels, thereby making it easy to read? Does not easy to read also mean easy to interpret ? In the process of making it easy to read has any new meaning interpretation been given ? Has there been any copy of the Qur'an compiled by Hazrat Abu Bakr to establish what were the changes (howsoever small) and whether they significantly altered the verses narrated by the Prophet? How many of the hafiz who memorised the Qur'an at the time of the prophet confirmed the changes made by Hasrat Osman. What were the changes identified and where? Has any human the power to change even a single letter of a Divine revelation ? On what authority did Hasrat Osman then make the changes, by revelation ? Why did Hasrat Osman arrange for changes |
|
thetruth 7/15/2001 11:16:15 PM ( 13 of 24 ) Quran is book of GOD ??? Quran is divine , are u crazy man ??? No book is written by GOD , none is son of GOD and no man is avatar of GOD . Muslims belive QURAN has divine origins coz they r blind , they love ignorance and hate knowldge as SATANIC thing. these are the people who can happily commit all kind of crimes in the name of religions . They don't like reasons . They just belived it blindly as they are being told to belive for the last 1500 yrs . They don't want to question it , they want u to belive it , belive it blindly . If u still question , u r in danger of ur life . Do u belive GOD has taken away our right to question something ?? do u belive GOD preaches hatred ??? QURAN preaches hatred , it talks of KAFIRS , all non-muslims are kafirs , quran inspires u to kill the kafirs , and u call it the book of GOD ???? look into our neighbouring pakistan .... 23 % of the pakistanis were kafirs in 1948 , now they are less than 3% . Quran inspires muslims to finish of the kafirs , to convert the kafirs ..they used the swords for the spread of "divine" ISLAM , now they use AK-47 .Wherever the KAFIRS are the minority , the majority muslims will torture them , kill them . Quran wants muslims to that to kafirs ( non-muslims ) , and this all about ur divine book . Cannot u see how QURAN is glorifying hatred and murder of innocents , and still u call QURAN the book of GOD , do u belive GOD loves to hate ?? I don't blame u muslims because of ur infinite power to hate which u got from ur divine QURAN . |
|
pedant 7/15/2001 11:16:15 PM ( 14 of 24 ) Dear Khan, I repect and admire your faith in Islam.However there is some truth in the rather crude queries of Mr thetruth. Can you tell me what does Islam say about "kaffirs" |
|
rahulk 7/15/2001 11:16:15 PM ( 15 of 24 ) Absolutely... If there is any two documents that have created so much hatred on earth, they are the Bible and Qur'an. First, it was the Bible. And followed centuries of oppression and bloodhed, hatred... and still continues. Islam and Qur'an was late by close to six and a half centuries, but they made it up in no time, in double the measure.... ANd these people who follow the bloodiest of religions still profess the hatred, even today... Hitler's hatred for the jews is nothing when compared to what Christianity and Islam has done to the world. And, the worst part is that it is given as the Divine word... while all that has follwoed can only prove that both Bible and Qur'an has come from the Devil. Enough of this demonic texts. We should find something better. We have in fact. |
|
sanju25 7/15/2001 11:16:15 PM ( 16 of 24 ) Rahulk is very right when he says ....these books are devil's creation. Ask any muslim and he will say Qur'an teaches peace and brotherhood.. ya..it teaches brotherhood but only amongst muslims...so you will find muslims considering the hindus living next door as enemies and afghanistanis and Pakistanis as there true brothers. I got a chance to read Qur'an ....and my first reaction was ..." My goodness...How can people consider this book full of hatred and rubbish as divine...Are these people nuts..." They must really be crazy ...who is willing to die for such a book...These people really need some Psychatrist .. What is the use of a religios book which does not teach u to live a better life... |
|
punita 7/15/2001 11:16:15 PM ( 17 of 24 ) to mr. thetruth I find it very interesting that this topic has come up on discussion. its really wonderful that you posted this question whether the Qoran is divine or historical I would like to give my suggestions to you that you ask one of the qoran scholars who also have knowledge of the other aspects of science and it will be interesting to know that it is from God himself. I would like to give one example : It was believed even by scientists that the honey that we eat is secreted form the mouth of the honey bee.But recently it has been proved that it is through a mechanism that takes place in the belly of the honey bee that honey is produced after it takes the nectar from the flowers.dear mr.thetruth this we find in the qoran which was given by God 1400years ago. If this mechanism is to be true then it should be revealed by the scientific assays ie biochemical assays etc that we have today or it should be revealed by one who is originator of such a mechanism inside the honeybee.hope you will agree with me.This one need not follow blindly but as the qoran itself says it should be put to scientific assyas . Qoran gives you an open challenge. try and you will find out. for more details about other such phenomenonplease read the book: THIS IS THE TRUTH BY ABDULLAH M.AL-REHAILI. It is available from CIS centre for islamic studies, north road,cooke town, bangalore-5 I would also add that if you are really interested to know the fact instead of verbally abusing something you know nothing about. thanking you, punita |
|
stein 7/15/2001 11:16:15 PM ( 18 of 24 ) http://www.hinduunity.org/articles/islamexposed/jehadparadise.html http://www.hinduunity.org/articles/islamexposed/islamsexafterdeath.html http://www.bible.ca/islam-jihad.htm http://www.frontline.org.za/articles/articles/holy_war.htm |
|
skhan 7/15/2001 11:16:15 PM ( 19 of 24 ) There's NO DOUBT that the Quran is a divine book , containing the Word of God for ALL MEN for ALL TIME.It is historical only in the sense that it contains the history of mankind. It tells us the stories of nations that disobeyed God, and who met their doom.It tells us of things, NO human would know 1400 years ago. For example, it describes the formation of the human embryo, in EXACTLY the same stages as was discovered only in the last century. It talks of the origin of man from water, of the Big Bang theory, of the geographical function of mountains as pegs, of the physics of light passing through waves. It talks of the GReat Barrier between seas, of the concept of light as a measure of time...the list just goes on. It is only the bigoted and blind who want to deny it's divine origin. There's a book by researcher and Islamic scholar Ahmed Deedat which points out the flawless mathematical formulae that govern the Quran involving the use of the number 19, which prove that it is IMPOSSIBLE to change or alter even one word of the QUran . After all, God Himself has taken up the responsibility of guarding His word. He says that if all of mankind were to unite to produce even one chapter or verse of the Qur'an, they wouldn't be able to do that. My suggestion to everyone: Keep an open mind, isn't that what "civilisation" is all about? |
|
thetruth 7/15/2001 11:16:15 PM ( 20 of 24 ) Message Deleted by Free Speech Host |
|
sal 7/15/2001 11:16:15 PM ( 21 of 24 ) Message Deleted by Free Speech Host |
|
sal 7/15/2001 11:16:15 PM ( 22 of 24 ) Message Deleted by Free Speech Host |
|
riyaz 7/15/2001 11:16:15 PM ( 23 of 24 ) thetruth, whatever you are saying is just a person who is totally mad and need to be consulted with a psychiatrist. Unfortunately i am not a psychiatrist oops!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.I can't help you. |
|
Admin 7/15/2001 11:16:15 PM ( 24 of 24 ) IMPORTANT My attention was drawn to some gratuitously abusive messages. Please note that the intent behind this area is to encourage discussion and debate and to provide a platform for users to share and exchange views. While we are more than liberal in allowing unmoderated postings, it is in the hope that users will not descend to street level abuse and name calling which puts serious users off who otherwise have a valid and invalubale point of view to offer. While only one objected to message has been deleted so far, please ensure that we are not constrained to take more severe measures. If you find any other message objectionable, please send a mail giving the URL of the message (right click on message number and then copy short cut and paste) to freespeech@outlookindia.com Apologies for the inconvenience. |
bravenet.com