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Pakistan: Should we talk to them?
Free Speech Host     4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM
Ajit Bhattacharjee argues that perhaps the time has come for New Delhi to approach Musharraf as a possible ally in a joint war against religious terror. What do you think?
    Messages 
Free Speech Host  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 1 of 239 )
Let’s listen to what Maleeha Lodhi had to say in our 5th. Anniversary issue: “It is time the Vajpayee government undertook a reality check, abjured belligerence, revived dialogue with Pakistan, agreed to address all issues, including Kashmir, sincerely and constructively, and began to build the future architecture for a stable and prosperous South Asia.” Agree?

cactus  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 2 of 239 )
No Talks, Just Bang bullets on there asses.

Preeti  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 3 of 239 )
I am a bit confused. There asses? What does -- what, could -- my friend above possibly mean? Are there asses? Those dumb creatures known for used for lugging weighty material? Those donkey-like animals. I am forgetting my biology, but will consult the relevant books to find out their exact species.

Uh, oh. I am sorry. Perhaps what was meant was 'their' and 'asses' presumably is their junta. But even so, I must disagree vehemently with my friend.

If we bang bullets on their asses, some hot-head out of them might want to use the nuclear thing, no? They are not exactly a very calm, sober, pacifist or Gandhian country.

I agree though that we must be tough. Who was it who said something about speaking softly but carrying a large stick?

That's what we should do. Talk we must, for the public of Pakistan is not entirely on the side of their rulers always and is not to blame.

But we should be firm and watch our borders and our interests even as we talk to them.

My two bits.


Prem  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 4 of 239 )
Prem Naam Hai Mera, Not Chopra.
Hey, if we do want to get pedantic about copy-editing and such, why the comma after "what" in "what could ". Neat trick this, though, managing to make "could" italics. How did you do it?

But trivialities aside, what I find really interesting is the phraseology adopted by Maleeha Lodhi (by the way, why is Outlook so quiet about all the furore caused by her appointment in Pakistan and in the USA?) above and by Atal Behari Vajpayee in his musings from wherever in Kerala he was living it up on taxpayers' (or was the hospitality free?) money. I wouldn't have noticed it, but your free speech host seems to have been guided by this in the thread on Kashmir. Wait, let me go back there and copy and compare it:

"the bold and innovative designers of a future architecture of peace and prosperity for the entire South Asian region"

Now, what I want to know first is if anyone else noticed this? is plagiarism or inspiration? Or is it mere happenstance and a coincidence. In my case, let me admit, it is nothing but sheer serendipity.


pras  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 5 of 239 )
WE Indians must have some genetic fault as we fail repeatedly to learn from our mistakes. This is right from the days of Prithviraj Chauhan to Gandhi to our present day Hajpayee.These guys failed to understand that muslims do not comprehend peace.Prithviraj chauhan thought so and pardoned ghori the first time but the next time got his neck stretched when he was defeated.we have fought three wars and defeated them every time and let them go scot free. I am afraid of the day when they defeat us we will be thrown in gas chambers.
Maleeha lodhi is a jackass who type seems to have somehow hijacked the indian press.if these people love pakistan so much then ship them there.then they will understand to keep their unsanitary traps shut and join the silent majority which is just itiching to finish of pakistan.if we listen to their ilk we hindus have to give up everything to the pakistanis and also start paying jaziya.first we have to take care of these jokers and then we can take care of paksitan.


Preeti  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 6 of 239 )
Send Maleeha odhi back to Pakistan? Perhaps you seem to be knowing not that she's Pakistani? And Pakistan's ambassador to the USA.

The rest of your comments are too steeped in hatred and too bigoted to deserve a reply, but I do have one grouse against the government.

We should straightaway tell Pakistan that among very many other preconditions it must meet the very minimum - viz. we should ask that Azhar Mahmood (was that the name of the terrorist that Jaswant Singh accompanied to Kabul? Sounds too much like a Paki cricketer) be handed back to us.

How can Pakistan allow someone released under duress by the Indian govt. and someone who cost the lives of so many innocent people to live and preach hatred in Pakistan?


Prem  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 7 of 239 )
Prem Naam Hai Mera, Not Chopra.
Spoken like a man, Preeti! (No sexist slur meant, just a figure of speech!). I like it. Yeah, that's what we should tell the pakis. Give us that Maulana and then maybe we can talk.

And as for that Maulana, we should just let Rupen Katial ask him some tough questions in an open TV trial.


pras  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 8 of 239 )
preeti,
thanks for "enlightening" me but if you would read my comments,i had talked about people like lodhi whose views seem to dominate the indian media.and he people whom i wanted to ship out to pakistan were the editors in india who seem to propogate the theory that it is india that has to grovel before pakistan and apologize for ever having kashmir as part of india.add to the list people like i.k gujral,kuldip nayyar etc .
if you guys want to indulge in self-flagellation fine but leave out people like us who have lost many near and dear ones in the wars with your blood brothers next door.and if you still believe that pakistanis embody the fountain of human kindness and all that,get a reality check or better still check yourselves into an institution.


Gayathri  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 9 of 239 )
NOBODY has ever suggested grovelling to Paksitan. No, not even Inder Gujral. He sounds more hawkish than a dove, if you hear him on Pakistan. Yet we should get off our moral higher ground every now and then and admit that we have fucked up big time in Kashmir.

From the time of Nehru to Indira to whoever else. WIth Vajpayee's all other faults, he seems to have understood that he's got to admit some mistakes yet it's sad to see him behaving stupidly in encouraging talk of trifurcation.

If we want peace to have any chance of surviving in this region we have to stop looking at Kashmiris as faceless traitors and treat them as one of us, as our countrymen who have genuine grouses. Some of their problems may be paranoic, and more perceived than real, but security forces have to be reigned in, so that people do not feel like prisoners and second class citizens in their own home land.

ANd lastly - this seems like an interesting place - and I intend to be back some day soon, time permitting - please let's not let Farookh Abdoolah ruin and sabotage the peace process. He's more dangerous with the office he commands for India and peaceful interests than any body else.


Anuj Joshi  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 10 of 239 )
The biggest problem with all of us is that we giv in to rhetoric very easily.time an again history thourhgout the free world(whether Israel-palestine/northern Ireland/Bosnia/kashmir) has shown that bullets only bring more misery than peace. The only solution to any problem is dialog.See what has happned to so much of effort in Palestine/Northern Ireland.Because of guns all efforts have gone awry.
There is only one solution and that is talks. But at the same time talks not to clergy/ultra orthodox but moderates and sensible people on both sides


Anuj Joshi  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 11 of 239 )
Can we give it another dimension?

What happens when you suddenly get a nieghbour who is not only atleast 10 times richer than you but who is powerful also. Do we not feel unstable and unsecure. you feel why you do not have a benz like he has or why can't you afford to go for a weekend to an exotic place even once an year when he does it every week end.

And What happens when the same neighbour comes to us and says hello and eats and drinks with us.You obvious feel less inclkined to feel jealous don't you????

Right, that is what all our neighbours feel because of our size. Our culture has always talk magnanimosity but at the same time strength of character.

This should not be read as weekness as we can not keep silent when guns are behind us but we should be the first to pt one step forward.


Preeti  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 12 of 239 )
Pras,

I fail to understand your point, really. And Prem, thanks for your patronising me. Which editors recommend grovelling before Pakistan? Gayatri has summed up the response quite well, I think. Even the peaceniks are

And what makes you think you are the only one who has lost loved ones in the senseless wars and the violence wrought in the name of patriotism?

If India needs to keep J&K as a trophy to secularism, it has to first reach out and win the hearts and minds of Kashmiris.

And talking to Pakistan is a must. it mst be on terms suitable to us, of course, but this whole business of us versus them has to stop among those who are Indians.


Rhino  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 13 of 239 )
We the pannu kashmiris now want to visit pak and impress upon the general there to take into account the plight of kashmiri pandits also.

if the indian govt will not listen to us, maybe pakistan will.

tge gebeal sems to be a reasonbable and compassionate man. he called up at the time of earthquake and sent aid too.


hadavidi  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 14 of 239 )
In India democracy has taken a long time to become a mature process. In fact we are still evolving. On the other hand, Pakistan as free nation is hardly 10-15 years old. When I say "free" nation, I refer to the origin of democracy.

For long, the will of majority of pakistan seems to have been subdued by fanatical minority albeit a powerful one. And also we need to remember that the existence of Pakistan is based on religion. And the dictators there seem to have made anti-India stance as the second factor. The day India is perceived as a friend, the real issues and sufferings of Pakistan will surface. And also Pakistan is close to becoming a failed state, the example of which is the ease with which elected Govt's are being kicked out by armed forces.

Imagine if pakistanis start becoming refugees. It will be a major humanitarian issue. So, instead it is in our interest to engage pakistan and see that they are stable. Any sane person knows that if we get down to show of strength, we have shown them comprehensively 4 times (including Kargil). But we also should understand that India's real strength lies in its INCLUSIVE nature and PEACE LOVING attitude. Let's give it a chance, though certainly not under threat.


Prem  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 15 of 239 )
Prem Naam Hai Mera, Not Chopra.
Boys, you are really missing the fun. That's at the other thread going on in sports where a bunch of pakis and some of the sanghi types are having some no- clear exchanges:

Should we play cricket with Pakistan


jaga  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 16 of 239 )
When I began to study the Koran, the holy book of Islam, I found many unreasonable ideas. The women in the Koran were treated as slaves. They are nothing but sexual objects.

Naturally I set aside the Koran and looked around me. I found religion equally oppressive in real life. And I realized that religious oppression and injustices are only increasing, especially in Muslim countries. The religious terrorists are everywhere. But if I criticized Muslim fundamentalists and mullahs in particular, it is because I saw them from close quarters. They took advantage of people's ignorance and oppressed them. They considered women as chattel slaves and treated them no better than the slaves of the ancient world.


Prem  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 17 of 239 )
Prem Naam Hai Mera, Not Chopra.
Jaga why are you like a stuck record? You sound like Arun Shourie to me.

vmathur  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 18 of 239 )
We could ask Maleeha Lodhi to give the same advice to her own Government(?).The problem between India and Pakistan is not rational but emotional and religious and it would not be well understood by secular types who do not comprehend the philsophical and structural problems in this relationship. Let us leave it alone and time will solve it one way or the other. It may not be the way we want it.

Hindu  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 19 of 239 )
A brute can suppress a sage with his brawn and control the sage's actions, but even a brute cannot control the wisdom that keeps growing in the sage's mind all through the darkness of brutal tyranny.

The genocide suffered by the Hindu Community at the hands of the Muslim occupying forces in India for a period of 1100 years is as yet formally undocumented. But its memory survives till today in the hearts of many Hindus, who seek not revenge from the Muslims, but want to ensure that no such horrible event occurs any time in the future anywhere on this globe.

The only similar genocide in the recent past was that of the Jewish people at the hands of the perverted Nazis; and of the Africans during the slave trade perpetrated by the Arab Muslim slave traders and later by the European colonialists as also the almost total wiping out of native populations like the Maoris in Australia and the Red Indians, (Aztecs, Incas, etc.) in North and South America. It has been estimated that in all, millions of African men, women and children died throughout the trade and more than 75% of the native Americans were wiped out.

The holocaust of the Hindus was of similar proportions, the only difference was that it started in the year 715 C.E. with the Arab Muslim invasion of Sindh and continued for 1100 years, i.e. for more than a millennium, till the brutal Muslims were effectively overpowered by the Hindu Marathas in 1720 C.E.

Historians have described the Muslim attack on the Hindus as a conflict of Black with White. Since times immemorial India had been invaded by many people from different parts of our globe (in fact, it was the same for all countries). But what contrasted the pre-Muslim invaders from the Muslims was that after their initial clash with Hindu military power, the pre-Muslim invaders merged into the general mainstream and even the memory of their having come as invaders itself disappeared. We do not consider Emperors like Kanishka (a Ku Shan or Kushana), Milinda (an Indo-Greek), Rudradaman (a Shaka or Scythian from pre-Muslim Iran) to be non-Indians. These invaders have merged into today's general Hindu population.

But the Muslims with their barrack like lifestyle and their contempt for everything non-Islamic, have left a wounded civilization in India. The brutal Muslim tyranny has till today left a split in India's national character, even after the country was vivisected into two parts - to create Pakistan as a state for Indian Muslims. But in spite of the division of this country to create a separate homeland for the Muslims in 1947, many of them preferred to stay back and today account for the recurrent communal riots, the killings of Hindus and Sikhs in Kashmir and the renewed demand for special status and for the Islamization of India. This is today's reality which could become tomorrow's calamity - if we are not on our guard and take preventive action immediately
Sri Jay Maharaj ki Jai!


jaga  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 20 of 239 )
dont talk dont listen to pakistan----keep on rerouting their jehadis to janat/allah, by killing them.

raj7  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 21 of 239 )
i think we should talk less and take this thing more seriously.

sanjay_c  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 22 of 239 )
As a matter of fact : even after Kashmir some other Muslim Populated stated will become problem for us. So:
" Go out all against Pakistan. Do not get into war. Put their home on fire in Sindh/balushistan etc."


Gayathri  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 23 of 239 )
So you think that Kashmir is a problem for us because it is "muslim-populated"? Wat does that have to do with the probelems we had in Punjab, still have in all of northeast and elsewhere?

Now as to putting their home on fire in Sindh/Baluchistan etc. is concerned, do you think our RAW and other security agencies are populated by peace-loving, love-yopue-neighbour-types?


mjvreddy  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 24 of 239 )
I think we better to talk with pak, if they come first, because we have only two ways to solve problems with Pak. First one is talks with Pak and the other one is war (it may be direct or indirect). If we goto second one we have to sacrify a lot (military & money) to beat Pak, but our final goal is not to kill pak people.

So, we should have plans to educate & employ all the people in India who can understand the problems( In kasmir more than 50 % are not willing to join with india, based on survey's).


Shoki  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 25 of 239 )
See they are a bunch of copycats:

Isn't it a shame? Whatever India does, Pakistan copies .. with a vengeance>
[*]Prime Minister Nehru's daughter Indira Gandhi becomes PM (1966)
[*]Prime Minister Bhutto's daughter Benazir Bhutto becomes PM (1989)

[*]Rajiv marries firangi Sonia(1968)
[*]Imran marries firangi Jemima(1996)

[*]Ravi Shankar jams with the Beatles (1968)
[*]Nusrat Fateh Ali jams with Eddie Vedder (1995)

[*]India makes 'Gandhi'(1983)
[*]Pakis make 'Jinnah'(1998)

[*]Deserving foreigner (Dalai Lama) gains asylum in India (1959)
[*]Deserving foreigner (Tiger Memon) given asylum by Pakistan (1993)

[*]Sanjay Gandhi dies in plane crash(1980)
[*]Zia ul Haq dies in plane crash(1988)

[*]Narasimha Rao ousted from office due to scam (1995)
[*]Bhutto ousted from office due to scam (1996)

[*]George Fernandes makes stupid statements to media (April'98)
[*]Gohar Ayub Khan makes stupid statements to the media (May'98)

[*]Dilip Kumar gets Filmfare Lifetime Achievement Award
[*]Dilip Kumar gets Nishan-e-Pakistan(1998)

[*]Kapil Dev holds the World Cup (1983)
[*]Imran Khan holds the World Cup (1992)

[*]India disallows Pakistani artistes (Apr1998)
[*]Pakistan disallows Indian artistes (May1998)

[*]India loses Pakistan (1947)
[*]Pakistan loses Bangladesh (1971)

[*]India imports American products - wheat(1960s)
[*]Pakistan imports American products - F16s(1980s)

[*]Cheesy Indian rock band makes it to MTV (Indus Creed 1992)
[*]Cheesy Pakistani rock band makes it to MTV (Junoon 1998)

[*]India has networks for MilWorm crackers (June1998)
[*]Pakistan still creating networks for MilWorm crackers

[*]India conducts N-Tests (May 11, 1998)
[*]Pakistan conducts N-Tests? (May 27, 1998)

[*]India refuses to sign NPT/CTBT
[*]Pakistan refuses to sign NPT/CTBT

We should just say we give up Kashmir. Will they, too?


Shoki  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 26 of 239 )
Okay, this is sort of old and recycled, but it makes me laugh:

Pervez Musharraf comes to Delhi for a meeting with Vajpayee. After dinner, Vajpayee says to Musharraf: "Well, I don't know what you think of the members of your Cabinet, but mine are all bright and brilliant."
"How do you know?" asks Musharraf.
"Oh well, it's simple", says Atal. " They all have to take special tests before they can be a minister. Wait a second". He calls Advani over and says to him "Tell me Advaniji, who is the child of your father and of your mother who is not your brother and is not your sister?"
"Ah, that's simple", says Advani, "it is me!"
"Well done Advani", says Vajpayee and Musharraf is very impressed.
He returns to Islamabad and wonders about the intelligence of the members of his Cabinet. He calls in his favourite member of Cabinet and asks: "Tell me, who is the child of your father and of your mother who is not your brother and is not your sister?"
He thinks and thinks and doesn't know the answer. "Can I think about it a bit further? May I let you know tomorrow?"
"Of course", says Musharraf, "you've got 24 hours."
He goes away, thinks as hard as he can, calls in his Cabinet Secretary, Chief Secretaries and Joint Secretaries, but no-one knows the answer. Twenty hours later, the member of Musharraf's Cabinet is very worried still no answer and only 4 hours to go. Eventually he says: "I'll ask Benazir, she's clever, she'll know the answer."
He calls Benazir. "Benazir ", he says, "tell me who is the child of your father and of your mother who is not your brother and is not your sister?"
"Very simple", says Benazir, "it's me!"
"Of course" says the Cabinet member and rings Musharraf. "Sir", says he, "I've got the answer: It's Benazir Bhutto".
"No, you idiot", says Musharraf, "it's Advani".


schawla  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 27 of 239 )
After Kargill it is amazing that Pakistan still has the nerve to ask
India for talks.

These people are liars and they
misinterpret the Koran into thinking
that they can lie to non-muslims in
the name of jehad.


BATYAR01  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 28 of 239 )
WE HAVE TO LEARN FROM PAST. CAN YOU TRUST PAKISTAN. NEVER, IS THE CORRECT ANSWER.PEOPLE IN KASHMIR SHOULD BE MADE TO KNOW THAT VIOLENCE IS NO SOLUTION TO THEIR ASPIRATIONS. WE HAVE TO BLEED THE PAKIS.TO THE MAXIMUM EXTEND TILL ALL TERIORISTS ARE FORCED TO GIVE IN. THE PEOPLE WHO DONOT UNDERSTAND LOGIC HAVE TO BE KICKED IN ASS TO MAKE THEM UNDERSTAND. IT IS INDIA ONLY WHO ALLOWS SO MANY OF OUR ARMY, INNOCENT PEOPLE TO BE KILLED AND YET OUR LEADERS ARE UNEFFECTED. CAN ANY OTHER COUNTRY TOLERATE THE CARNAGE GOING ON OUR SOIL.
DOES VAJPAYEE HAVE ANY CLUE FOR THE SOLUTION TO KASHMIR PROBLEM AND OTHER OUTSTANDING ISSUES.
MY SUGGESTION IS HE SHOULD BE SEND TO PAKISTAN ON ANOTHER BUS YATRA WITH NO RETURN TICKET.


MALANI  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 29 of 239 )
WHAT IF PAKISTAN IS GIVEN THE CHOICE OF TAKING ALL THE MUSLIMS FROM INDIA ALONGWITH KASHMIR, WILL THEN PAKISTAN GET A BIGGER PICTURE,ABOUT WHAT INDIA STANDSFOR? WILL IT BE ABLE TO HANDLE MUSLIMS FROM SOUTH INDIA? WOULD'NT SOUTH INDIAN MUSLIMS BE CONSIDERED OUTSIDERS INSPITE OF "MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD" THAT EXISTS ONLY IN NAME

MALANI  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 30 of 239 )
WHAT IF PAKISTAN IS GIVEN THE CHOICE OF TAKING ALL THE MUSLIMS FROM INDIA ALONGWITH KASHMIR, WILL THEN PAKISTAN GET A BIGGER PICTURE,ABOUT WHAT INDIA STANDSFOR? WILL IT BE ABLE TO HANDLE MUSLIMS FROM SOUTH INDIA? WOULD'NT SOUTH INDIAN MUSLIMS BE CONSIDERED OUTSIDERS INSPITE OF "MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD" THAT EXISTS ONLY IN NAME

BATYAR01  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 31 of 239 )
Malani

Muslims of India are as much soul and blood of India as any other community. We can't judge them on the basis what Pakistan is doing. We can say people of Pakistan are the victoms of enviorment created in that country by their Religious Mullas and Government. Mullas catch young innocent boys and poison their mind with Jahad and Religious zeal in innumerable Mudrasas creeped up in that country. The result is a very fanatic guy who feels Islam is the only true religion in the world. All others are kafirs to be killed as per the dictates of holy Qu"ran. This is an unfortunate situation for those who are caught in that trap, especially poor people. It may be noted all the south Asian people outside their countries live like brothers. There are so many things common in their culture that brings them togather. Some of them are very fine people who are the best in all respects.It is necessary that a Pakistani has to change his mindset. Jahad will bring them nothing, but only misery and perpectual Bankrupcy which their Country is now going through.The Sooner they realise this the better is it for them. They are under wrong impression that by sending terriorists to india they can get Kashmir. It is like asking for moon by young child.The rulers of Pakistan think they can bring Information technology revolution in their country like India. I think they are dreaming. They have to close Madrasas first.Create a new seting, But influntial Mullas will never allow this to happen. Mullas will loose their influnce and money. After all they have very deep pockets under their long shirts and black coats. It is a catch 20 situation for Pakistan. But Great Allah gives only what you ask for!


malhar  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 32 of 239 )
hey guys,
one thing is for sure pakistanis can never be trusted. and at the same time we're also not interested in a meaningful dialogue. so people of kashmir are in for a rough time. sometimes i feel sorry for those people who have nothing to do with the struggle. they are also victimised.

talks with pakistan can only be resumed when the govt there stops aiding millitants in the name of jehad. no religion tells to kill people in the name of it. if some religion does then it's not a religion at all.


sgm  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 33 of 239 )
where is the question of talks when openly Pak is supporting the extremists.What are they trying to achieve by killing innocent people?maybe their biggest fault is that they are the living in kashmir and neither of the countries have resolved this issue.In the past 53 years what has been done to improve the situation,infact it has worsened.what good has any dialogue done to us.nothing!! and it never will.If the Shimla Agreement could be violated what good any talks would be? There should be Shoot at site orders to get rid of all the terrorists.Wonder why is there any question of talks at all. it does not make any sense.

Prem  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 34 of 239 )
Prem Naam Hai Mera, Not Chopra.
Yea man! Spoken like a true Indian!

faizh  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 35 of 239 )
I think first and foremost we are the people of subcontinent. We belong to this very old civilization. We must remember that. Just because we were conned hundreds of years ago by Europeans and let them colonize us and then divide us does not mean that now we should kill each other. I bet those Europeans read and laugh at us because we are falling right in their trap.

Its time both people not government but people realize we are one and same. Though now we have imaginary borders between us it should not stop us from acting like brothers. Ordinary people on both sides do not care about kashmir. They care about food and life which sadly is ignored by our so called leaders. Its time collectively we say no more Kashmir crap join hands and say we are one. Why can't we have a one nation with provinces have most of the power have one capital that controls defence, finance and international affaris. That way all our problems are solved and people on both sides of power are not killed and those corrupt fanatics have noone to fight with. Its time for common sense to take over not hate and stupidity.

If Germany and France can come together we certainly can. They do not even share the same language, culture etc we do.


ap  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 36 of 239 )
This crazy mind set of fellow Indians irritates the heck out me! Why the hell would Indians want to play games , cricket or whatever with a country that sends terrorists across the boarder every day that our troops gun battle . !!

ap  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 37 of 239 )
Pro-Paki Kashmir are welcome to walk across to pok. Kashmir is a Indian state and will remain so. There are 2 million people in Kashmir valley, India has 1 Billion people. Ejecting a 500,000(if that much) pro-paki is no big deal . Send these pro-pakis to paki land instead of playing footsie with them on your dilly “talks”. India has 130million Muslims too. Freedom fighters my a$$. Flood Kashmir will 10million plus people from all over India with free land (Yes it’s a Indian State)When the terrorists run 400,000 people out of the state stupid A$$ sissy Govt runs and hides! . Problem will be solved in 10years.

ap  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 38 of 239 )
Pakistan has followed anti-indian policy from the day one. Till today India has been reacting to that. For their internal dynamics or whatever (who cares) Pakistan will remain a anti-India country. India's policies must always not only reactive but pro-actively work towards the detriment of Pakistan in every possible way in the same token.

mtlmathu  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 39 of 239 )
Talk to whom and how long will the agreement stand. We already have too many past agreements which are not respected. Tomorrow there will be another type of regime and they would like to start anew. Before the CEO can talk to the Indian government he has to prove that the country follows him. There are a lot of people who would not even consider him as true representative of Islamic Nation. Why should India be in hurry to talk. Are we afraid?

Jaat  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 40 of 239 )
People !(PART I)
Time to think and rethink and have a look at the history too..
Many people here talk about togetherness and so called secularism prached by this Gujraal and Kuldeep Nair assholes.. But its time , some facts get serious consideration..
1)Since day one from their very exitence, they have kept this whole asia and even Europe on rocks..
e.g
These people and TRUST no way.. Hunmayoon revolted again Babar.. Akbar again his pop.. Jahangir fought war with Akbar.. and Finally this sheer ass Aurangjeb killed his father and 3 brothers. I am sure the dying Shanjanh was not asking for Kashmir.. TRUST
Prithviraj trusted Gori and forgave him.. finally paid the cost of TRUST and so did we..
Gandhi trusted them.. Jinnah.. what happened.. first pakistan and then Kashmir.. 4 wars ..what next..
whole world tried to trust them at times.. result.. Bosnia.. Chechenya.. Kashmir.. were all these belonged to them..
(PART ii follows).


Jaat  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 41 of 239 )
PART II

When in minority, they talk of human rights.. and when majority.. is there any country in the world which is muslim dominated and is not an ISLAMIC STATE OF..... whatever..
what is happening in these ISLAMIC STATES.. look at Afganistan..(www2.rawa.org) look at pakistan..(history says.. being the head of state.. means death or jail.. the very next day..next head comes.. TRUST..(look at Ayub khan.. Julfi Bhutto.. Benazir.. Nawaz sharif).. ask these guys whom should we trust.. they know pakistaan better..
and that Amanullah khan.. Ask him .. he confused the whole kashmiris for years.. what he says now.. This bloody Gilani..(lets send his wife and kids to the TRUE AND PURE ISLAMIC STATE OF AFGANISTAAN for further eduaction..)
Did albaania and bosnia belonged to them..or did Jeruslam at the firsplace.. they went there.. produced slums of kids.. and they day they become 40%.. they want country.. seperate.. TRUST..
and where are the communal tensions.. Meerut.. Auragabaad.. Jahanabaad.. Saharanpur.. all these place.. just coz they are in numbers there.. and trusted them and didn't make a law so that they wont produce 20 kids a couple.


Jaat  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 42 of 239 )
PART iii

and they were 12% when we had the first division of India.. coz of Gandhi.. they were trusted.. now they are 25%.. and the day they are 40#.. I would ask Preeti.. and Gayathri to follow Shariah.. and wear Burka.. and have their nails and limbs amputated.. and wear yellow for distinction and dont have even the right to cry or complain if a muslim rape them.. TRUST them..
and where are we heading.. and the world.. when people are called generation x and y.. the world is busy discussing stock market.. they are destroying Budhaas.. coz some muslim by chance in Afganistaan can go and worship those guys.. and PURE STATE is proactively acting in advance.. and pakistaan is very very near to the same thing coz of all thats going on there.. its a matter of 2-3 year.. Those mullahs will declare that talking about Kashmir to India is against Islam.. cos India got temples.. so Jihad is the only solution..


Jaat  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 43 of 239 )
Part iv..

anld look around closely.. in ur townships.. first they were few and houses were open.. they were brotherly.. now all those area all slowly becoming slum type.. with very narrow streets.. and all others have flown flown.. and none of us dares to even peep in there.. Hyderaabad.. Merrut.. Bombay.. Lucknow.. Old delhi.. our govt even dont have maps of those areas.. whats going on there.. who know.. and no one wants to know.. coz WE TRUST.
and thats why terrorists are there at red fort.. and ISI has bases everywhere.. even in Nepal.. and Dawood Ibrahim extorts at will.. WHY..

any way.. KEEP TRUSTING .. and one day they will fire bullets at your ASS.and make an ass of ur TRUST as they always had.. with all the KAFIRs of the world.(for all those who doesn't understand Biology or Anatomy). ASS is the the part of body below navel and above thighs..
and though there is not, but even if there is some human rights voilation by security forces in Kashmir.. its still not matches that of Pakistaan, Afganistan or Iraq.. and the people who understands only the language of blood.. they should cry much bout it.. and in situations like this.."only thing that matters is the fear of the gun.. whether it is 10% or 90%.. it is the first 10 or first 90"..

KEEP TRUSTING!
AND GOD GIVES U MORE OF THESE THINGS TO TRUST..


One  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 44 of 239 )
This one is for JAAT
You are trying to convey to us that Islam is the real problem between India and Pakistan.
I am a Muslim and you will be surprised to know that my and my community 's biggest enemy is Pakistan . These people are ass holes.
There are Muslims in countries like UAE,Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iran, etc. These countries are doing wonders with stock and business.
These are all Islamic states.
Well in the case of Jerusalem,the Israelis or those Jews , they don't have any good reputation in history. wherever they went they continued with their troubles. Now because they are the richest people in the world you cannot stand against the cause of the Palestinians and for the very same reason Iraq was destroyed.


One  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 45 of 239 )
Continued from above..

The Albanians in Macedonia consist of 50 % of the population but don''t have the fundamental rights. Do you agree with the situation? If yes you are a mother fucker.

While everybody in the world feel pity for the the Bosnians in yugoslavia you come here to call them terrorist.In Bosnia it was the Serbs who raised an onslaught against the Bosnians.

And you talk about those Rajputs.Well

if you open an history book you will find that they were the one who never succeeded just because of conflict with each other.This is truth and not that filmi stories of Prithviraj which are just like Hrithik roshan movies. I can also write thousand of stories about Muslim heroes.


One  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 46 of 239 )
continued..

And as far as Afghanistan and taliban are concerned I don't call them Muslims but they are just Pakis(fuckin Pakis)
Again the problem between India and Pakistan has never been Islam and Hinduism but it has been the asholes Pakistanis.
And these Pakistanis are puppets of CIA of USA and so are those Taliban.

I feel pity for the country Afghanistan and its people who suffered all these years due to inhuman politics of first Usa and USSR(cold war) and then Paki-CIA works of distruction.
Afghanistan wouldn't have faced all these troubles if it did not have a neighbour like Pakistan.
I am just waiting for the moment when CIA is going to destroy its long partner and helper Pakistan.
But unfortunately it will be India which has a tendency to fall oin the USA ' s trap.


every  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 47 of 239 )
Pakistan is born of hatred . Pakistan wants to destroy India . We should not want any peace with Pakistan . Pakistan wants Kashmir . We want whole of Pakistan . We should attack Pakistan and occupy it . Whoever opposes this occupation we should kill them . Destruction of Pakistan will be a service to the world . Because Pakistanis are as harmful as AIDS virus . As killing mosquities is not a sin , so killing Pakistanis is not a sin . Indian soldiers should given a free hand to attack Pakistan and massacre Pakistan . After all Pakistan belongs to India . India must occupy the whole of Pakistan and this will solve the Kashmir problem . We defeated Pakistan everytime . In our next war , we should teach Pakistan a bloody lesson . Destroying Pakistan should be our sacred aim . PAKISTAN IS HELL . LETS US DESTROY THIS HELL AND CONVERT IT TO HEAVEN THEN.

sanz  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 48 of 239 )
'ONE' Iraq was not destroyed because it was going to help Yaseer Arafat, It was destroyed because It tried to ANNEX KUWAIT. If you have forgotten, then let me remind you that it was not only US, but Saudi Arabia,Turkey,Egypt,Seria, Jordan(All Islamic Countries) were the allies of US and all the US planes which attacked IRAQ were operating from Turkey and Saudi. Also you said that IRAQ,Saudi Arabia and UAE all the muslim countries are doing well, They are doing so because they have got Natural Oil, do you know of any other Industry in those countries. ?? They cant even get enough drinking water in Iran ? And dont worry US cant do anything to India, India is too good for them, It has everything of their Own, they dont depend on US for their their day to day needs like Pakistan and most of all, it is not run by a Bunch of Jehadis (Even if it is BJP, they are always on toes because of the NDA), India is Survive. and let me correct you on jews, they are richest people in US and they have never created any problem in US. It is the Muslims who are the problems all over the world, eg. in Afghanistan,Kashmir, Algeria,Bosnia,Armenia everywhere in the world. You said that You and your Communies are biggest enemies of Pakistan ?? I ask you How ?? In Aligardh Muslim University, The CBI has found no. of ISI agents over las couple of years why ?? is it because you are enemies of Pak ?? You want to give KAshmir to Pakistan ?? Why ?? You Support Pakistani Team whenever they play India, You want the Indian Team to go to Sharjah despite knowing that It encourages Terrorists like Dawood Ibrahim ??

One  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 49 of 239 )
'SANZ' Iraq was destroyed because it never had any good trade relations with the US and had sided USSR during the cold war.

ISRAEL annexed whole of PALESTINE,half of LEBANON and parts of JORDAN. USA never went to help these countries and it never went on to destroy Israel. Why? USA never cared for Kuwait and why should it ? Well maybe it did because it found an excuse to destroy Iraq because of it. Keep this in mind -- IRAQ WAS NOT POLITICALLY DESTROYED BUT IT HAS BEEN DESTROYED ECONOMICALLY. Even if US destoyed Iraq because of annexation of Kuwait then SADDAM should have been the one to be destroyed and not the poor CIVILIANS. Don't tell me it's vey hard for US to destroy this man. If u do then U ARE ALSO FOOLED BY THE US politics.


thetruth  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 50 of 239 )
we should not talk to pakistan . we should attack them and destroy pakistan . pakistan is a curse to the world . pakistanis are fucking criminals . let us kill these criminals . pakistan was a part of INDIA and we should occupy it again . the people in pakistan are invaders . PAKISTAN IS THE MOTHERFUCKIN COUNTRY . LETS KILL THE PAKISTANIS AND DESTROY PAKISTAN .

manu  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 51 of 239 )
wow

cleo  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 52 of 239 )
Fact is that successive Pakistani governments have turned to Kashmir and India as an emotive and a threat issue to bind a disllusioned people with the failed Government of the day.

In many ways, a theocratic agenda which has not proved unifying ,a feudal system which is badly in need of land reforms, an obsession with kashmir and India and security , rampant corruption amidst dehumanising poverty, lack of democratic institutions and an inadequately developed scientific temper with a not so free press have contributed in a big way to Pakistan failing to reach mature statehood.

The fact that their neighbours, India has successfuly warded off four attempts at armed aggression and over the years grown considerably stonger in their quest for mature statehood(although admittedly there have been failures on the Indian side too), has heightened an insecure psyche.

Belligerent sections from the stronger Indian side, have confounded the perception that India as a country is not prepared for peace or to accept the partition 50 years after the traumatic event.

The mix of insecurity, actual armed aggression, nuclear sabre rattling and fishing in troubled waters (RAW_ISI ?) have confounded hopes of peace.

By and large at the Government levels (maybe till the Vajpayee bus ride which was rebuffed with a Kargil)there has been intense mistrust and perfidious action. In this milieu is the talk of peace a no-brainer ???? Hopefully not !

There are common people in Pakistan and India who want peace and a chance to go ahead and build a secure life for their children from out of the rubble of four wars and nuclear proliferation !

Hopefully a shared longing for peace and prosperity (moving monies away from Defence expenditure of two nuclear power states towards Develeopment) will bring a realisation and pressure on the respective governments to give up the encouragement/support to violence and bellicose nationalism , on both sides of the border, as it has not got us any where in 50 years and so we can begin a new a quest for peace.Recognising our multual rights to live.

Inter people dialogue at all levels should continue through out the time.This only can remove the mistrust and build the bridges of sicnerity.

An effort to build an Economic Zone (like the european union) within SAARC should also help greatly to remove the cobwebs and fears of the past. Hopefully Kashmir in a milieu of an Economic union will loose its geo-political relevance.

We have to give peace a chance even if earlier efforts have failed as this is the only lasting solution.


mks  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 53 of 239 )
Speak to the People of Kashmir at the Grass Root level.

With Whom are we going to Speak

Speaking to Pakistan

The Biggest problem in speaking with pakistan is that we don't know whether we are speaking to the right person.

When the Government of India tried to establish a working relationship with Zia ul Huq that poor guy was assasinated. Then came Begaum Benazir, before she could be invited for talks she was dismissed. The came our Lahore Hero Nawaz Sharif when vajpayee was talking to him, the military supposed to be under his control is placing all the lumpun elements in the Kargil ( Which we have drove them out after losing 350 of our men). Poor Nawaz the PM of Pak is in exile. Then Came our Coup De Chief Musharaf CEO of Pakistan who is responsible for the kargil mess and now claims to be the representative of Pakistan without any mandate of the people. Does he represent the People of Pakistan.

What is the gurantee that while speaking in Delhi some General in the Border post who don't approve the talks cross the border and place his military goons in the High Points and create nusance for us.

First and foremost thing we need to identify whether Musharaff is totally incharge of Pakistan both Civilian and Military, in the absence of which i think speaking to pakistan is a futile xcersie. What is the gurantee that Musharaff gives will be honoured by Pakistan, given our experience with Pakistan. When everybody supported sepaking to Nawaz Sharif BalTachkrey (Shiv Sena) opposed it and Pakistanis proved shiv Sena Right, Now also they oppose !!!!!!!!

Speaking to Hurriyat.

Hurriyat is a Bunch of people (most of them are like Card Jokers) who do'nt have any decision making capabilities. And neither they have any ground level support. Does Hurriyat have any Control over any of these Militants Group, Can they make Kashmir Free of Gun Shots even a day, i think that they are nothing but a Bunch of people who are particular in serving their Self Interest.

Hizbul & Lakshar,

The Military and the CRPF are the Right person to deal ( neither speak nor negotiate) with this creatures, who don't understand any human values.

The Government of J& K and its People

The starting point of the peace process is to ensure a proper governance in the State of J&K and to stem the rot in the administration. To ensure that the people of the State are getting what is due for them atleast we have to start with Jammu, Ladak and Leh. Relocation of all the Kashmiri Migrants (Both Hindus & Muslims)to the state though not in the Valley atleast somewhere in the state. To give a proper living conditions and opprtunities to Kashmiri Migrants to restart the life. Which make the misguided people to realize the mistake.

I firmly belive that the talks is not going to produce any result. It will end as head lines news item in the satellite Channels and the Magazines. May be it may even end in some lumpen elements occupying the high post or Musharaf being replaced by some Huq / Khan if the History Repeats.

So the Right Course is to Speak to the People of Kashmir at the Grass Root level.

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ap  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 54 of 239 )
A lasting solution cannot be found without abrogating Article 370, and thus changing the demographic character in the Valley.

hiyer  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 55 of 239 )
We have to be creative in solving any problems. 1. How about switching(swapping) soldiers on each side of the border. Indian soldiers on Pakistan side of Kashmir to mann the posts and Pakistan soldiers on our side. One cannot get any more objective in ensuring a safe border. Both have vested interests to ensure no one crosses.

2. combine services which will save or help in economies of scale, like we do not need two airlines, air india and pia. both can merged. One could travel to delhi via lahore or vice versa.

3. have amitabh host "KBC" in Lahore.

Be creative. If they don't undertand this kind of humor, then, there is a problem.

But I think, the reason Musharaf is keen in talking to India, is to position himself as the next general turned politician turned visonary. Vajpayee wants this to get the limelight away from tehelka and win elections in UP and other major BJP states.

Pakistan's economy is deep trouble. Just to give an example, the dollar to pakistani rupee is 67 and going up vs dollar to indian rupee is 47 and it has been stable. Even if Pakistan wants to build the most modern army they dont have the moola to buy or run the machines; ofcourse they have lot of mullas' though. It takes a lot of gasolene to run a tank vs a compact car.

People want to buy sony tv and watch indian movies and live normal lives there and no one wants a tank parked in their driveway in Karachi or Islamabad.

Pakistanis are trying to get real.

Thanks hari


ketkar  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 56 of 239 )
speak to them, sir but dont trust them. lets not make that mistake again and again and again. we know those people. how can we trust them. they r upto no good, just buying some time. i say talk to them and screw em big time. destroy their dogs in kashmir and ruin those $#%$ so that they wont afford a slingshot to hurt us. under cut all their goods. i say hang that %^%^* on the red fort.

kamal  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 57 of 239 )
All this problem are present because of timid and stupid Nehru.

manoj  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 58 of 239 )
I was quite interested by what I read on The Friday Times -- pakistan's weekly political-economy Outlook India style weekly. What you see there (especially in the social-life pages of the features section) does not sound like a country of mad dogs and fanatics as we are led to believe. http://www.thefridaytimes.com I am sure that there is no shortage of taliban types in Pakistan but I think they are a minority with the rest remarkably like Indians. Also, there I have seen a lot of criticism of the government in the pak press in general. Musharraf is a benign despot, which means he can take decisions politicos never will. We should talk to him.

thetruth  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 59 of 239 )
the dog called nehru valued his INTERNATIONAL LEADER image more than whole of INDIA . lets not talk about that scoundrel . TALK TO PAKISTAN is fruitless . We cannot except anything good from that bloody , fucking country of pigs . If we drop A-BOMBs on Pakistan that will be a great service to world . India is much stronger than PAKISTAN . PAKISTAN deserves destruction in the hands of India .

rads  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 60 of 239 )
A step forward is better than 2 steps back. So why not? Won't do much harm.

vedic  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 61 of 239 )
Ask, no tell the general the following.

Where are the 23% percent Hindus/sikhs that were there while partision?. Where are the temples?. How many hindus and sikhs were murdered , raped and converted?.

Tell him to apologize for creating Kargil war, for dismembering soldiers and ask him to pay for the expenses of kargil and also for burying their "unwanted" soldiers by our soldiers.

Tell him to give us these bastards Dawood Ibrahim, chota Shakeel, The hijackers of Khandahar And many more wanted devils of the dark!

Tell him to stop promoting jehadis, cross border terrorism, preaching violence and hatred in mosques by the "mullas", getting money from drugs and arms dealing

Show him that in India, Muslims and Hindus can coexist in harmony and that we do not want them to teach us how to live

thankyou


vedic  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 62 of 239 )
Ask, no tell the general the following.

Where are the 23% percent Hindus/sikhs that were there while partision?. Where are the temples?. How many hindus and sikhs were murdered,raped and converted?.Let him explain.

Tell him to apologize for Kargil for dismembering soldiers and ask him to pay for the expenses of kargil and burying their " unwanted" soldiers by our soldiers.

Tell him to give us these bastards Dawood Ibrahim, Chota Shakeel, The hijackers of Khandahar And many more wanted devils of the dark!

Tell him to stop promoting jehadis, cross border terrorism, preaching violence and hatred in mosques by the "mullas", getting money from drugs and arms dealing

Show him that in India, Muslims and Hindus can coexist in harmony and that we do not want them to teach us how to live

thankyou


vedic  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 63 of 239 )
Never ever trust the Pakis and the muslims who supports Pakis in India. They will stab from the back. Mr. Vajpayee please take care! We all are with you.

mooooo  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 64 of 239 )
u people shouls stop talking about the hindus and skhs who died during partition. but have u forgotten about the muslims who died. and who said i there is tolerance in india. thats why ppl kill missionaries and kids while they are asleeep and destroy masjids in the name of hinduism. and support groups like vhp, bajrang dal and leaders like jayalalithaa. please u ppl keep ur hypocritical mouths shut.

surya  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 65 of 239 )
Talk,but be careful and know who you talk with(good/bad).Wars have to be fought,but all wars end on table with blood of ordinary on both sides.Talks lead to solutions,if sensible demands and both parties sincere and not many variables/leaders.Or do war,get tired,then talk.

surya  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 66 of 239 )
Even if nothing to talk on Kashmir,since it is a very complicated problem talk in way of India-pakistan bureacracy.Decide in meetings next venue to meet.Party,play golf and maybe a solution comes some time.Solve the problem sarkari style,for when many leaders,comlpications what solution?Communication raises hope of peace/solutions.

shirish  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 67 of 239 )
no way we should talk with pakis... no use .. can one forget the happening from the day pak was created..1947 prob in kashmir...continuous firing on our borders..punjab prob..kashmir prob..more recently kargil.. there should be limit..

when we will learn to respect our army personals who died from 1947 till date?

they are "GANDE KHOON KI PAIDAESH.." we can't believe them. they talk about peace..they have dawood,chota shakil,hijackers of Khandahar..and many more even Pervez Musharraf was involved in war against us..can we trust him?

still here in india we treat Muslims with equality ..Dr.APJ abul kalam azad is muslim..in no other country we have man of so called minority at the highest level..but most of the muslims still consider themselves as pakis and not as an Indian...they should have gone to they rotten land of pakis in 1947. they should understand what the original pakis call the people who went to pak in 1947..

Israel on other hand went all out to destroy nuclear reactors in iraq..we should do such thing should take strong action and destroy pak and wipe out name of pak from map of world

jai hind !


sss  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 68 of 239 )
India and Pakistan are nuclear powers,like US and China are.Kargil was a limited war where sufferer is common man on front.Small wars lead to world wars.Any war now will invlove nuclear weapons unimaginable.We all have emotions,egos,pride but nuclear wars now will create many Hiroshimas,destroy economies everywhere,so in everyones interest to solve disputes through negotiations,control of emotions.This seems to be a very positive step for both nations(and other nations),if both govt. are sincere in their approach.

jayramj  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 69 of 239 )
should india and pak talk?? yes we should ...theres no problem in this world which can have a military solution alone. Should we blindly trust pakis? definately not we should keep our eyes open and be alert. Our security forces have made major gains in pakistan and we should consolidate these gains. The pakistan which we need to deal more severly is not outside but inside india. And that pakistan doesnt have a religion ..all the hindus who were sorry for bringing down the facade called "babri" are more dangerous than a lashkare toyba or hizbul mujahidin as they have more love and respect for an invader like Babar than the "rashtra purush" shriram

So talk on table but look under the table a knife be hidden there

Keep the faith Jayram


s_s79  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 70 of 239 )
Ask Pervaiz Musharraf His Price

It is well known that Pakistanis are Great, they can do Anything for Money, even they can sell their mother for money. So Vajpayee should ask Pervaiz Musharraf his price, it must be within India's range.

s_s79@hotmail.com Shafiq Syed, USA


kamal  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 71 of 239 )
whom we are talking to to? Ass fucking General Musharuf, who supported and master minded kargil conflict. It is as good as talking to another terrorist. If I were prime minister of india, during the kargil intrusion, I would have taken advantage of it and recaptured the lost territory by crossing loc. when pak. captured kashmir, world kept quiet, did not do anything. similarly, if we recapture the lost land, world won't mind. but right now india do not have guts to recaputre aksai chin from china.

Prem  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 72 of 239 )
Prem Naam Hai Mera, Not Chopra.
Thankfully, Mr. Kamal, you are not our prime minister and even the fuckwit Vajpayee has more brains than balls to know that any adventurism across the LoC could lead to those irrational fucking Pakis letting go a nuke or two.

Atal might want his Nobel and a seat in the security council, but he doesn't want our collective asses fried.


kamal  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 73 of 239 )
Mr.Prem,

If irrational fucking pakis goes to a nuke or two,the whole india will not be destroyed. But we can completely destroy entire pakistan. I donot think so, they will go for nuke even if they are mad fucking arses.


Prem  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 74 of 239 )
Prem Naam Hai Mera, Not Chopra.
You do not think so?

Shudder.

You shitwit moron, can you even claim to think? And even if you do, is that all you can offer by way of a thought out strategy, eh?

Heard about radiation, fuckedbrain?


kamal  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 75 of 239 )
Prem,

Donot jump wizkid. When usa dropped Atom bombs over japan, the entire japan was not destroyed. only part of it. I too know science. Radiation goes in circular not according to the boundaries of india. in such a scenario, pakistan too will be affected if it wants to destroy india by single nuke. I donot think so they have such a powerful bomb at this time. ok bud.


Prem  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 76 of 239 )
Prem Naam Hai Mera, Not Chopra.
hai hai, you do not think so?

Heard about missiles? What if one is launched on Delhi?

The idea is not that we should be blackmailed into a corner, but surely you would have heard of "Chicken".

Nah, not the tandoori type or what you might think to be a cock, but the strategic game?

And a suicidal bunch of thugs, the fidayeen types, those guys aren't bothered -- in particular when they know that the game is up. If India were to launch a conventional war, the first thing they'd do (remember the lesson on cowards elsewhere?) would be to toast you.

Then you can go crying to Uncle Sam, hai hai, Vajpayee may not even be alive to write a darned elegy.


kamal  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 77 of 239 )
prem,

sorry, you are not up to mark. I donot want to reply to such wizkids in future.


Tathagat  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 78 of 239 )
appa DeepO bhava
... Musharraf in Gulf News... he is right... but poor copy... the precise thing .. how could u... how could u divide one people... it such an absurd n stupid idea... Faarooq Abdulla talked to his effing non-existant god... n he/she told him... Hurriyat folks aren't aren't designed n equipped to rule... Faarooq a collabrator with the oppressor... n won't have any place in future Kashmir...

Faani Badayuni:

Iss baagH meiN jo kali nazar aati he tasveer-e-fursudgi nazar aati he kasmir meiN har haseeN soorat 'Faani' miTTi meiN milee huyi nazar aati he

phooloN ki nazar-nawaaz rangat dekhi makHlooQ ki dil gudaaZ haalat dekhi Qudrat ka karishma nazar aayaa kashmir do-ZakH meiN samoyi huyi jann'at dekhi

about change... Qateel said... :

Qaid-e-Qafas ke baad karega qiad-e-gulistaaN ko'n gawaara ab bhi vahi zanjeerieN heiN, go peh'li see jhankaar nahiN


surya  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 79 of 239 )
Recent talks between India and Pakisatn are long way from Kargil war,when 2 countries soldiers were killing eachother and a danger of nuclear war was there.There is pressure and opposite forces on both sides.Visit cannot be seen as failure for any side,may be not total success.Agreements etc can be made if both rulers , first consult their near advisors and be clear about their interests,and aware of consequences(kargils) of failure of talks etc,else media leaves no one and seems to make mockery of both rulers.Problems of 50 years can take some time to arive at consensus.Rulers /common people gain by peace and wars are ended by negotiations.History has shown that.But then agreements maynot mean anything.Any Humans/countries can go back on words in daily life.Complicated life/problems,but not a bad start.

spirit  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 80 of 239 )
Politics/games of religion with public and within parties has lead to confusion//complications within parties and outside parties.First one should talk among party,then with other countries.Plenty of shakunis to sabotage talks,on other shoulders.

spirit  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 81 of 239 )
Question is whether we can talk president of pakistan.A general who overthrew his boss/mentor,made him a fool in kargil by showing him weak and sort of got back door entry as ruler of pakistan.Very tough to trust any human today,how can you trust such a smart general.But today he is ruler of pakistan.War/kashmir his obssession to show dream to poor people of pakistan to remain inpower.So talk to him with EQ (mangement experts will help),but show IQ in negotiations with him,for he has both IQ/EQ.And he can do same feat again for power.

pmalik  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 82 of 239 )
i think we should talk to pakistan but tell them firmly that kashmir is non-negotiable. we should also take pok, by force if necessary. pakistan simply has no business being there. why do we tolerate them there? i also think that the indian government should formulate a policy on kashmir that takes into account the wishes of the people. the primary issues of concern are the reduction of violence and winning back the trust of the people. the government should come down heavily against militancy and should not worry about international reaction. After all, it is the question of our country's security.

thetruth  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 83 of 239 )
VINOD THE FUCKING MEHATA AND OUTLOOK ARE WITH PAKISTAN AND DAWOOD .

Aman  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 84 of 239 )
I am based in Delhi and have been involved in a lot of discussions about the complex relation of India and Pakistan. In India people are generally two types in reference to their views about Pakistan. One who believes that Pakistan should be dealt with love and care, after all we are same type of people, Brothers and Pakistan will be ours, one day. The second are who believes that creation of Pakistan was a big mistake, it’s a terrorist state, no need show any love towards it, Enemy and will be ours, one day. I feel that Pakistanis by and large are suspicious of both type of Indians and they have reason for that. They feel that Indians want to finish their Nation in one or the other way. What we need in India is third type of Indians who are not biased by this stupid notion that India and Pakistan is one Nation. We need to accept this fact that Pakistan is like any other nation for us and we should deal with it like one Nation deals with another Nation.

Now comes the big question of Kashmir?? Let me tell you a small discussion, which I had with my friend Shahid during Babri Masjid heydays in 1991. According to him that majority of Muslims by and large has no problem in giving Babri Masjid. But what they fear is the attitude and dream of Hindu fundamentalists. You give them an inch and they will ask you a yard. They will not be satisfied till the time they will not throw out every Muslim out of their Hindu Rashtra. We have no choice but to fight for our survival and if it so than why not on Babri Masjid? It is true for Kashmir too. A lot of Indians by and large has no problem in giving Kashmir. But what they fear is the attitude and dream of Muslim fundamentalists in and around Pakistan (Osama has said that Kashmir is the Gateway for India). You give them an inch and they will ask you a yard. They will not be satisfied till the time they will not make complete India in to a Muslim state. We have no choice but to fight for survival of our Nation and if it so than why not in Kashmir? Till the time these fears and these suspicions are there, I am afraid to say that we will not be able to live peacefully with each other.


itsme  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 85 of 239 )
talk to them? ok here goes blah blah blah blah

Pushkar  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 86 of 239 )
To me, Maleeha Lodi has no credibility. If I recall, she made a transition from an academic career to a political career riding on Benazir Bhutto's shoulders; now, to remain there, she is tagging along with Musharaff as Ambassador to the US. How can one take her seriously, as someone who has little commitment to democracy but to her own career. The only thing in her favour is that she is good at what she does, something which can't be said for most of our folks in the US.

Pushkar  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 87 of 239 )
Is anyone surprised?

sanju25  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 88 of 239 )
YES YES ANS YES...We should talk to Pakistan and we should also talk to Pakistanis who live inside India.... our own traitors...and we should ask them and ask them there problem ...if they think India is problem for them ...let them leave this country and go to the place they support. Recently there was a speach by head of muslims , Abdullah Bukhari, who not only asked Indian govt to shup up but also said they support Laden and Afghanistan and there call for Jehad... It's a shame for us ...that such people continue to live in our country ...They should either be publicly hanged or asked to go to the country they favour...Such elements should have no place in India

vishag  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 89 of 239 )
NO. We are late in talking to them ,

BY 54 years 1 month and 22 days

today.

No body on earth can neutralise these 54 painful years and 1 month and 22 days in addition. 08-10-2001


sujai  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 90 of 239 )
Talk to Pakistan about what? Kashmir is an Indian Problem. Indians should have guts to solve it. Being an Indian, I would not want to rule a piece of land when 90% of more of the populations doesn't want to be with India, and are in fact terrorizing other people there, and killing our security forces. The only solution to Kashmir problem is their Independence, in which Indian part of Kashmir (not Jammu and Ladakh) combines with Pakistan part of Kashmir to form an Independent state of Kashmir. The transfer of power to Kashmir people can be gradual, with signatories being Pakistan and India signing agreements that Kashmir cannot join India or Pakistan for the next 20 years. And during the interim period UN Keeping force can protect its border, while Kashmir holds its elections and form its cabinet and government.

That's the only way out to solve the problem of Kashmir, and save ourselves 6 crores rupees a day, save lives of Indian security forces and lives of Kashmiri youth.


Free Speech Host  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 91 of 239 )
Message Deleted by Free Speech Host

Free Speech Host  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 92 of 239 )
Message Deleted by Free Speech Host

Free Speech Host  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 93 of 239 )
Now the good General's also called up our pradhan mantriji to revive the process of dialogue despite all the tough talk of "lay off", "freedom struggle" etc. and seems to be promising to look into the JeM and so on, at least for form's sake. And there is Javed Burki suggesting that India, Pak Must Convert Tragedy Into Opportunity What do you think? Give it a shot, like, again?

asdesai  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 94 of 239 )
This is to Sujai,

What are you talking???? Do you know what are you saying?? Please send me the links or source where I can see that 90% Kasmiri want freedom from India. And if those 90% don't want to stay in India then they are free to leave India. We are not going to give them our land in gift.

Ami


thetruth  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 95 of 239 )
We should talk to people , not to animals . Pakistanis are dirty animals . We should slaughter them for the sake of world peace . If all pakistanis are killed , there will be no terrorism in the world .

Sundeep  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 96 of 239 )
thetruth, I wonder if it tells us more about you than about the Pakistanis? What is the source of your information about all Pakistanis, by the way?

thetruth  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 97 of 239 )
population of hindus in pakistan ( in year 1941 it was 25% , in 1948 17% , in 1991 it is less than 1.5% , in 2001 ??? ) . It is the statistics which will even put Hitler to shame . Sundeep this is one source of informations , there are 100s others , if you want to see them .

ziakhan  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 98 of 239 )
zia khan

Post WTC has created a situation for both india and pakistan to initiate or rather to resume the bilateral discourse to evade any possible catastrope as they posses nuclear weapons. keeping mute over the core issues between the two nations would not solve the escalting tension between them. They should come forward to resume the dialogues volunterily without any external pressure from the western world.


luvvmann  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 99 of 239 )
pakistan is a miserable fanatic state. the only talk with pakistan should be with guns and tanks. they need to be taught a lesson that they will never forget. break that country into pieces. no talk only action is required.

Free Speech Host  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 100 of 239 )
Ajit Bhattacharjee argues that perhaps the time has come for New Delhi to approach Musharraf as a possible ally in a joint war against religious terror. What do you think?

janoo  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 101 of 239 )
The truth is bitter for both nations, because politicians of the both nations using the Kashmir issue for their interests. Just if you have power in your balls listen to Kashamiris?? What they says, Waht father of Indian Nation (Mr. Nehroo) said, if the Indian have minds and have memory just recall and act upon what your father said. If you don't listn to your father you are just a piece of shit......... Wher minorities are genocide " see the herigan, see the sihk, see the christian any of monroties is having the main position in any givenrment department all are hindus this is the truth. you hindus no more but just a shame on the name of hind-us-tan.

janoo  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 102 of 239 )
Yesterday VA-JA-PAE was saying that he will not start dialogue with Pakistan, and today he has become agree to meet Musharaf in KUT-MUN-DO, Why???? Because europein union leaders show him the right profile of the Kashmir that Indian was hiding from the world since ling and not allowing any journlist to enter the Kashmir, OOOOOOh Indians this is digital world. and the World is watching what you are dong wrong in Kashmir and the innocent people of Kashmir. When the world state terorist the frist name comes of INDIA..... Sahme on India and military of India who is killing the emply handed ppl in Kashmir in Assam and other part of indian. Go and catch the VEERAPAN he has some weapon and you can not even catch VEERAPAN AIR. How long it has been that he is challanging the indian police and military shame on both department........

janoo  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 103 of 239 )
If any cows dies in india, Politician say, Pakistan involve in the murder of the cow. As Bush said when he came to know that his wife is pregnet, he said Osama did this. Think and act upon what your father said....

gandhian  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 104 of 239 )
yes we should and we should ask following questions.

Question: Why Pakistan and pakitani does not support "right of self determination" by

Tiwan, Tibbet and Xinjiang? Why their 'humanity', morality stops at the border of China?

Question: Why pakistan have given their 1/2 of kashmir to China? what's their stand? If

yes, then should they ask for written confirmation from chinese?

Question: Why was there no "freedom" stuggle in Kashmir before 1989? and why did it start

after USSR left Afhanistan? or was it just a conincdence?

Question: Will the coming generations of Kashmir will forget and forgive pakistan for

raping Kashmir to achieve thier revenge against India for 1971?

Question: What has pakistan given to world and humanity in general?


gandhian  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 105 of 239 )
Question: Should pakistan be held responsible for Afghanistan's Misery?

Question: can durand line be compared to redcliff line? should pushtuns be united as one

nation like kashmir?

Question: Why is pakistan hated in whole of Afghanistan ( both pushtuns and non-pushtuns)?

Should pakistan now officially accept that brother in need is brother in deed?

Question: Can pakistan now complain of betrayl by USA after they have betrayed Afghanistan

as they allowed USA to bomb innocent people of afghanistan from Pakistan?

Question: Should Afghanistan be grateful to USA for helping them liberate their country

from USSR and now Paksitan?

Question: Will the coming generations of Afghanistan forget and forgive pakistan for

raping their country to achieve thier selfish "strategic Depth" against India? (Pakistan

being top preacher of non-imperialism and non-meedling of internal affairs of other country)


kvvamsi  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 106 of 239 )
u janoo mother f******,how dare u support pakisthan,u should be a muslim, doesnt matter which country!!!!!

oh really??India is killing kashmiris?? see how many Kashmir pundits have been displaced,and so do sikhs.u suckers are killing these inocnet people both thru militancy and thru shelling,and u accuse us of killing kashmiris????

see how many innocent civilians killed during recent bomb blast near assembly. it is ISI behind sep.11.SOB,u shut ur mouth or i have to call names on ur mother.

how many hindus are being molested, massacred, looted in pak and bangladesh. have ever a hindu achieved a post above a peon in pak???here,they become chief justices of supreme court,and even presidents.u r taking too much liberty. its high time we show u what u r. crush these muslims!!!!!!!!!!!!!


kvvamsi  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 107 of 239 )
u janoo mother f******,how dare u support pakisthan,u should be a muslim, doesnt matter which country!!!!!

oh really??India is killing kashmiris?? see how many Kashmir pundits have been displaced,and so do sikhs.u suckers are killing these inocnet people both thru militancy and thru shelling,and u accuse us of killing kashmiris????

see how many innocent civilians killed during recent bomb blast near assembly. it is ISI behind sep.11.SOB,u shut ur mouth or i have to call names on ur mother.

how many hindus are being molested, massacred, looted in pak and bangladesh. have ever a hindu achieved a post above a peon in pak???here,they become chief justices of supreme court,and even presidents.u r taking too much liberty. its high time we show u what u r. crush these muslims!!!!!!!!!!!!!


kvvamsi  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 108 of 239 )
u bastard junoo, who iz behind all the atrocities from kashmir to kanyakumari,from kandahar to sep.11.u son-of-a gun shut ur trap

janoo  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 109 of 239 )
kvvamsi, listen I am a human being not indian nor Pakistani, and both are posting the message here, but the dirty language u Hindus have been using in this section, one can feel how crul, nonsense, how backward, you ppl are including your ruler. who are completely nonsense at the age of 71 years how a primenister can understand that how he should run a country, at the age of 71 years mind is empty and you ppl have a PM with an empity mind, shame on you Hindus. I know truth is bitter thay is why u r posting too many nonesense message to showing your hindustani nature. U kind of ppl is really a pieceofshit......

janoo  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 110 of 239 )
Listen an other story you hindus ppl are the salves of muslim, Moghul emprors, you hindus only were only the singer of their DARBARS, I mean maid, salve, servent remember that time when your ancestor were use to clean their pot and whash their clothes now today you are claiming Hindustani. You are Hind-Us-Tani, you are just a nonsense nation with nonsense rulers. I read your political history all minister are and member of lok and raj sabba are uneducated and wicked etc. What point you have to talk kvvamsi, Listen to your FATHER Mr. NEHRO and do what he said for ppl of Kashmir. Shame and cry on your fate.....

bluehill  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 111 of 239 )
Dear Pakistani brothers:-

1. Please don't worry about the right self determination of Kashmiris until you have it yourself in Pakistan.

2. Please don't worry about the plight of kashmiris in India until you find some ways to bring home four lakh "stranded pakistanis" (Bihari Muslims) in Bangladesh who wholeheartedly assisted your army in "containing" the independence struggle there. They are waiting to come home. Bengladeshis are making their life as hellish as possible.

3. And Finally, India is not a Hindu Kingdom. It is a thoroughly secular, liberal and democratic union of different states and people. And we are advancing proudly in that direction. So please don't worry about minorites of India sitting in a "moderate and modern" religious dictatorship. Try to think about your blasphemy laws for a change.

Assalamu alaikum.


Sachin_R  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 112 of 239 )
Vinod Mehta quotes the reamarks made by the officals of French and German delegation in the very begining of his column as one of the reason why India should start talking to Pak. Dear Vinod please get out of your colonial thinking. I just donot understand why outlook allows such writes in their magazine. What has India gained in the past by talking to the crazy pakis... If the writer is advocating that India should accept the Pak offer of talks just to mainitain Indias so called respectable Status amoung the international community it is highly laughable. If India had such a good status amoung the international commuity then it would not be sacrificing 10 soldiers per day in the valley.The dispute would have been resolved long ago. I would strongly advocate that India should only agree for talks when it can see some amount of seriousness from the Pak side to solve the dispute in terms of its support to the militants in the valley.

Sachin_R  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 113 of 239 )
Dear Janoo,

If for second if we agree that all the Hindus were servants,maids,slaves in the Darbars of the Moghuls empires... just thinks about this...

How did u ppl(ppl who think on these lines and not Musilm in general) become the better half of the court... It could have happened only two ways... 1. Forceful conversion of a non muslim to a muslim. 2. Raping a non muslim woman by the invading muslim army to produce a muslim child(in other terms "Bastard") like you.

I donot think both the above mentioned points are anything to be proud of ...


luvvmann  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 114 of 239 )
people like janoo is a good reason why india should never talk to pakistan. screw pakistan and get rid of it from the map. people like vinod mehta are dreamers who are stupid. we have alot of idiotic hindus (janoo is right about that). because of these idiotic hindus we became enslaved by foreigners. it is time to change our mentality and fight the pakis and defeat them on the battlefield. pakistan is a napak state that should be wound up. sooner the better. no talk ever.

janoo  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 115 of 239 )
I have red the history of 65 Pakistan India war, that thought me that Indian military officers had plan to have a cup of tea in the Shalamar Garden, but your ruler prefer to have a cup of tea at the united nations building with this request that you coward indian want to stop the war, and indian military were completely had thought that they will loose a lot teritory of india, and after lot of request United Nations interfeared and stop the war and, as pakistani military were pushing back indian military very quickely, and the coward indian military left a hundred tanks behind them and wend to the tamples to say RAM RAM, United Nation saved your country otherwise india to had lost in the map of the world Ask you Father of the nation and mother of the nation Indrad GAN_DEE.

janoo  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 116 of 239 )
I monitor very closely both countries news, while Musharraf was in India, he is the same Musharraf who captures CARGEL and he was saying by sitting in your capital solve the Kashmir issue this is only issue by that time air from your ball gone flat... Why..??? Does any your ruler has the power to sany such kind of world with so bravely...

I see the indian dirt everywhre in our Gulf states in every house u people have sent your bastered women and they are spreading aids in the Gulf countries. 98 indian women out of 100 are protitue in the Gulf states Why you Indian people are so dirty and bad. I guess the same ratio would be in India


janoo  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 117 of 239 )
U diry people ask your ruler not to have discussion with pakistani rular, your ruler will talk and have to because pakistan in the front line allinace with the American you india's name is far far away in this collition, If your ruler don't talk with pakistani ruler, you will definitely be decalre state terrorist country, as Musharraf has said in many international public appearance that who is terrorist Indian army the indian ruler or the innocent Kashamari, How many Herigan you hindus have been killed because they are low cast religion people, Shame on you and everyday your assembly says Shame on Fernendance Shame on India, you nothing but a joke...

ap  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 118 of 239 )
Which president, of a country that is ostensibly--and ostentatiously--a part of the international coalition against terrorism, made the following public remarks (and numerous others like them)?

"Jihad is not terrorism. Mujahideen organizations are not terrorist organizations. Jihad had been revived during the Afghan war and now it is jihad in Kashmir. Muslims from different parts of the world are coming together to support their oppressed brothers and sisters." -- Feb. 5, 2000 "The Taliban are the dominant reality in Afghanistan, and the international community should engage rather than isolate them." -- Aug. 14, 2001

The answer is Pervez Musharraf, the general who led a coup against the democratically elected prime minister of Pakistan--admittedly a corrupt man, but isn't that something the voters of that country might have been expected to address the next time around?--and who now swans about the world wearing a badge, "President of Pakistan," to which he has no moral or constitutional right. This man, this military adventurist, was a near-pariah who was kept on the sidelines of the international stage in the days before Sept. 11. After that date, he has stolen the limelight. Members of the Bush administration describe him as a "kind of Ataturk"--a reference that must make old Mustafa Kemal gyrate in his grave--and he has been lauded, by people who should know better, as "responsible," "farsighted," "statesmanlike," "courageous," "moderate," "Westernized" and "brilliant."

Of these adjectives, the only one I would accept is the last--brilliant--and I would adjust even that, for right and truthful nuance, to "supremely wily."

Gen. Musharraf is a nakedly opportunistic man. He may be doing The Right Thing so far as the West is concerned, but he is hardly doing it for the right reasons. He has allied himself with the forces of good in the current war in Afghanistan for only one reason, and it has nothing to do with conviction, integrity, humanity, or a revulsion against international criminality. He is on board, quite simply, because the U.S., after Sept. 11, had him by the short-and-curlies. A conversation along these lines took place between the general and senior members of the administration:

U.S. Interlocutor: "We need your airspace and landing rights in Pakistan." Musharraf: "But, but . . ."

U.S.: "No buts. You're either with us on this or against us."

Musharraf: But . . .

U.S.: "What did we just say? The Taliban are your guys. Osama bin Laden has their protection. We just lost 6,000 people. We're in no mood for games. You join us, or you face our wrath too."

Musharraf: "bu . . . oh . . . OK. You can have everything you want."

That India--secular like the U.S., democratic like the U.S., and, like the U.S., a victim of Islamist terrorism--wasted no time after Sept. 11 in offering its resources, intelligence and goodwill gave the general even less wriggle room than he might otherwise have had. Thus was born an "act of statesmanship," in which Gen. Musharraf, dictator of a sectarian Muslim country, came to be portrayed as someone who was laying his life on the line for universal ideals.http://opinionjournal.com/columnists/tvaradarajan/


john-noe  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 119 of 239 )
It is a question to be pondered over. It first of all for our good and to the good of our neighbour. I was impressed to a great measure when Vajpayee wrote a letter to Musharaff, inviting him to India. It even startled our neighbour who did not have words to reply. And came the General to talk. He was indeed impressed by the way he was welcomed, but will not forget the way he left Agra to Pakistan. Well, the opportunity now is at hand again to tell Pakistan " Look what has happened to the Talibans who you backboned and do you want to have the same with the terrorists of Kashmir" India is doing it well to tell Pakistan that through terror they cannot win Kashmir. If Vajpayee and Musharraf meet they should discuss of how to bring peace together to Kashmir. Pakistan should not be so adament to achieve something in order to gain Kashmir which I think will never happen.They should meet but for that matter India's stand is crystal clear. I wish our PM more courage and good health in this regard. JN

thetruth  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 120 of 239 )
india fucked pakistan 4 times . pakistan is now being raped by usa . in kargil we SCREWED pakistan so hard that , it is still under pain . india took bangladesh away from pakistan . i dare the the pakistani pigs to do the same with kashmir . next time we will fuck pakistan so brutally that it will die . DEATH TO PAKISTAN .

thetruth  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 121 of 239 )
PAKISTANIS ARE DIRTY PIGS . WE SHOULDN'T TALK TO PIGS . We better rename pakistan as PIGSTAN .

maddy5  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 122 of 239 )
hello, janoo open your eyes and showel your ears and eyes and brain ( if any there) with a big showeler

maddy5  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 123 of 239 )
my dear janoo, u r going into details of indian women and culture, my dear janno, i know u hardly have brains, as u guys meaning paki asses,could never get a noble prize in any field, forget about discoveries, and your fucked up country economy is in doldrums managed by jaahil economists, beg your pardon, i hope u understand the meaning of economists. coming to women, my dear janno, your women are biggest bitches here in usa,

maddy5  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 124 of 239 )
dear janoo, ur women after in oppression for so long have highest amount of affairs, extramarital, worst kind of dresses, which even american women would think twice, highest amount of passion for sex , which they exhibit openly. they just want ot show that they are very liberal and fast paced. very loose kind of morals, tellu jannoo, very easy women are pakistanis, not indians. i shoo them off.

maddy5  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 125 of 239 )
dear jannoo, for your informkation, ur women has highest amount of divorce, low literacy, with just 30 percent and compared to literacy rate of india who has 69% of total one billion people. shame on your country. with pride itell u my country is making progress in every field, and has highest amount of doctors and engineers and one of the best economists of whole world.

raul  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 126 of 239 )
Please, I thought this is a moderated discussion! Why are you letting uncultured zealots with muddy brains uttering all kinds of nonsense dominate this group? I request you to remove these offending messages (for eg: from maddy 5) immediately from here. Otherwise, we will only get abuse and dirty talk instead of a meaningful discussion

raul  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 127 of 239 )
After going through the discussion, I must say I am heartened to see that most remarks, especially from women, seem to be positive and constructive. My own feeling is that one should always be ready to talk with Pakistan. That said, the people who rule our country, except a few like Mr. Vajpayee, are an unimaginative and uninspiring lot. The first thing we should do now is to win over the minds and hearts of the Kashmiri people by reining in the security forces and by making them feel that they are part and parcel of the country. The Government should encourage interaction between Kashmiris with other Indians. Removing silly restrictions about buying and selling property in Kashmir is a good idea, if the property is not sold exclusively to Zealots from VHP and Bhajrangdal. Elections must be fair and free. I'm convinced, if we do all these things then the Kashmiris will themselves fight the foreign terrorists.

pmishra2  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 128 of 239 )
Vinod Mehta viewpoint represents the thinking of a reasonable person but not one that takes into account the cultural delusion, bizarre dreams of glory and total unreality that characterizes the core of Pakistani culture.

If Pakistan was a country with a half-way normal culture Vinod's ideas would be reasonable. Unfortunately, we are dealing here with a country whose culture has a deep ideology of hatred towards the "other": shia, ahmedi, jew, hindu.... A country founded on the principal that muslimes should only live amongst other muslims (read Iqbal's speech from 1930 -- that is exactly what he says).

Recently, I viewed an interesting e-mail exchange on a message board. Two educated people from India and Pakistan were having a discussion. The indian agreed that things in Kashmir were bad and wondered aloud if some kind of small and reciprocal territorial deal with Pakistan would help.

The Pakistani immediately began discussion of Bangladesh and India's perfidy, he pointed to the deficiencies in the Radcliffe aware of 1947 and how some other areas in India also needed to be liberated! A few e-mail exchanges later the gentleman had moved through moghul history and was talking about the Afghan invasions and Nadir Shah.

My point is simply this. We are dealing with people who are completely trapped by the past. They genuinely believe that muslims cannot co-exist with others and they are going to continue with their bizarre mission for a long time.

The only solution is that ultimately a state and culture of this type has to collapse. It may take a long time, maybe 10-20 years, but it will happen. Till then we are going to have to meet these guys militarily and defeat them. At the same time we need to hang on to our secularist values and improve the quality of indian democracy.

I am not a hindu extremist. I hate the VHP and Ashok Singhal, I think the destruction of the Babri masjid was a disgusting act of small minded revenge. I feel muslim culture has made an enormous contribution to the world and India.

Nevertheless, in the case of Pakistan we are essentially in the position of having a neighbor who has chosen a crazed and deranged path. Unfortunately, unlike real life where you can move to neighborhood to neighborhood, we are stuck with these guys.


luvvmann  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 129 of 239 )
raul, the fact is u don't have a brain let alone a muddy brain. maddy5 is correct. a paki idiot like janoo does not deserve any better. i am not sure why you are selectively criticising maddy5 and not janoo. any reason, if so, let us have it. there is no way india is going to win over the hearts of kashmiri muslims. there can be no talk with fanatics. the concept of give and take does not exist among them. the kashmir problem can only be solved with the destruction of the pakistani state. the sooner the better. the muslim psyche is the problem not the socalld interaction. integartion is not being stalled by india, it is the kashmiris that are creating the problem. wake up and smell the roses.

Karapall  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 130 of 239 )
With traitors like vinod Mehta, Pakistan should be the least of our problems. If one goes to pakistani website www.defencejournal.com or www.pakdef.org, one can clearly see that Musharraf is not the issue. The main problem is the fundamental hatred for the pakistani ruling classes towards India. They have openly stated that "breaking up India" remains their ultimate goal, though cretins like vinod mehta seem to have selective memory when it comes to such statements. The pakistanis only understand the language of power, and that is the only kind of response India should provide. If morons like Vinod Mehta insist on emulating Prithviraj Chauhan's strategy of pardoning Muhammed of Ghauri 11 times before Mohammed dug his eyes out and slaughtered him cold blood, then India surely has more problems with its own cretinous journalist classes than it does with pakistan.

Karapall  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 131 of 239 )
raul, if you took a little bit of time and extracted your cranium from your rectum, you will know who your enemies are. Instead, like most of the intellectually bankrupt commies and their sympathizers, you seem to be more interested in ensring that people who dont share your opinions must be silenced... or demonized, such as the way the cretins at Outlook express call Bajrang Dal "terrorists" whereas the actual terrorists from Pakistan are called "militants". I would like to spit on the face of Vinod Mehta and his ilk but that would be a waste of my spittle.

Karapall  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 132 of 239 )
pmishra2,

Vinod Mehra is not "reasonable", he is a congenital moron. This is a guy who has been around enough to note that NONE of the treaties India has signed with Pakistan are accepted as legitimate by pakistan, and yet this excuse for a journalist wants India to continue "talking to pakistan" and signing more treaties with pakistan. For what purpose? One would like to know.

Pakistan is very clear that any talks that do not result in India handing over kashmir to pakistan is not acceptable. Being the full-blooded traitors that the Indian journalists are, they seem to agree with pakistan on this front. Truly, Vinod Mehta and his ilk are beneath contempt for the lack of respect they show for the brave Indian men and women who get killed everyday by an enemy that gets full encouragement from the likes of vinod mehta.


thetruth  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 133 of 239 )
pmishraa u r right . But don't hate the VHP . They are only trying prevent the Massacre of Hindus by muslims and seculars. People like Vinod Mehta has nothing say regarding the plight of Hindus/Sikhs in PIGSTAN ( so called Pakistan ) and in Bangladesh.But they will always talk about sufferings of Afghans . Fact is --> PIGSTAN IS INDIA'S ENEMY AND THERE SHOULD NOT BE ANY TALK WITH THE DIRTY PIGS .

samitsk  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 134 of 239 )
The media circus that Gen Musharraf turned Agra talks into should at least wake up the likes of Vinod Mehta, especially as Mr. Mehta himself has had the first hand experience of making a fool out of himself at the now infamous breakfast meeting.

That Pakistan's policy in Afghanistan has been a catastrophic failure should put us on our guard even more. Even under lesser pressure, Musharraf turned a historic opportunity at Agra into a showcase of his "commitment" to Kashmir. Now with only Kashmir to show as a possible diplomatic victory to his domestic audience, what makes Mr. Mehta and others think this time it is going to be something different ?

Yes, we need to talk and live as peaceful neighbors. Why doesn't Mr. Mehta (and his ilk) call up Musharraf and see if people to people contacts that Pakistan is stonewalling take place ? More student exchange programs, most favored nation status in trade etc will go much further in bringing the people of the 2 countries together than shams that both sides later claim as a "victory".

And we don't even know if Mushy boy will be around a month later. The war in Afghanistan has shown that the General cannot be taken at his word. While officially supporting US, the ISI was still trying to shore up the Taliban until it fell. So even if Musharraf agrees to peace with India, what happens to the die hard India baiters in the establishment ?

The best thing to do now is to ignore them and concentrate on talking to our own people - the Kashmiris. Pakistani duplicity should be first exposed in the Valley instead of the deaf westerners in UN and Washington.

The nicest thing that I ever heard about my country is that India has a vision, while our one time sibling Pakistan cannot look beyond religion as an excuse for its existence.

Preamble

We, the people of India, having solemnly resolved to constitute India into a Sovereign Socialist Secular Democratic Republic and to secure to all its citizens :
JUSTICE, social, economic and political; LIBERTY of thought, expression,belief, faith and worship;EQUALITY of status and of opportunity;and to promote among them allFRATERNITY assuring the dignity of the individual and the unity and integrity of the Nation;
In our consitutent assembly this twenty-sixth day of November, 1949, do hereby adopt, enact and give to ourselves this constitution.



Noble ideals have been set as our goals. Agreed we have very long way to go, but we know where are headed to. We put satellites into space, build nuclear bombs, fuel the IT revolution, all because deep inside we know Justice, Equality, Liberty are to be supported.

After the demolition of Bari Masjid, India stood at the same cross roads that Pakistan found itself a couple of years ago. But we chose not to degenerate into a bigoted society. The BJP government could be formed only when it toned down its virulent agenda and conformed to the secular existence that our consitution enshrines.

After all, what is Pakistan other than the biggest irritant we have had so far - a thorn in our flesh ? India has a long way to go - to be an IT, economic, regional superpower. It is time to stop shaping a reactive foreign policy and build on our vision for the future.

India is a dream that is taking shape. Let us not define it crudely as simply being anti-Pakistan.


luvvmann  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 135 of 239 )
mr samitsk, good and balanced article. i disagree with ur assessment of the BJP. the BJP has lost it's moorings and turned into a congress party unfortunately. the political agenda of the original bjp is correct. the babri masjid stood on the ruins of a temple as many mosques do today. the qutb minar complex is a good example. even a fool knows and the muslims themsleves proudly admit that mosques are standing on temple lands. it is the socalled secular hindus (communists and opportunists) that are misleading the people.

luvvmann  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 136 of 239 )
the preamble to the constitution and the constitution are great documents and something that indians should be proud of. but india is not a secular country because of the constitution. india is secular because the hindus are secular. the constitution stands because of the hindus. the day muslims are given a hand at this they will convert india into an islamic republic. there is no doubt in my mind. you are putting the cart before the horse. protect hindu institutiuons because they are naturally secular. look around and even a fool should know that. however, a good response by you.

luvvmann  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 137 of 239 )
all the muslims who come on line and talk about secularism are liars. they are communal to the core. if they love secularism then why don't they condemn pakistan saudi arabia and bangladesh et all. all muslim countries are islamic theocracies or run by dictators. islam is not democratic and muslims are communal to the core. hindus will be slaughtered in india if the muslims get a chance at it just like in pakistan and in bangladesh (still continuing). i can assure you if india does not take action hindus will be hounded out of Bangladesh. it has happened in our own country kashmir. the shameless hindus stand by watching and doing nothing. ofcourse, the hindu psyche is to blame. selfishness and cowardice are their bad habits. but that does not mean the muslims can do what ever they like. there are still some homorable hindus and sikhs left who will fight the islamic menace.

anwarsad  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 138 of 239 )
I am a Muslim and I vociferously protest the insinuation that all Muslims who visit this discussion board and talk about secularism are liars. That is a carte blanche statement that reeks of self-serving bigoted mindset of the extreme Hindu right wing ideology. Islam is in dire need of reformation. By not making a clear distinction between religion and state it is prone to all the pitfalls endemic to such social constructs. In this framework there is a gradual tendency toward extremism because obviously the most “correct” people in such societies are the ones who adhere to the strictest interpretation of the Koran. This structural impediment to change and progress is perhaps the biggest roadblock to the establishment of a dynamic modern Islamic society. This does not negate the existence of progressive Muslims entirely just limits their numbers.

I for one think we need to adopt a very hard line toward Pakistan. We Indians have missed a ton of opportunities throughout History to solve our difference vis-à-vis Pakistan to our satisfaction in our efforts to be fair and non-violent. Case in point being the opportunity that presented to us immediately after Independence when we should have militarily solved the Kashmir issue. Once again in 1971 we lost at the bargaining table what we had won on the field of battle. In addition to all this our own lack of forethought in not holding a plebiscite in the Kashmir under our control in say the 1950s when Sheikh Abdullah was firmly in our camp was another missed opportunity. Taking help from the US during the Kargil operations so as to limit our losses at the cost of “internationalizing” the issue was another strategic failure even though tactically it was great. Well that is all "“sunk cost” so to speak. The $64,000 question is, what now?

In my opinion Pakistanis are only open to understanding the language of strength and they will not rest till Kashmir is “settled”. Consequently at the moment, given the great disparity in our resources, economic situations, political capital with the US and the West, we should present a very strong front to Pakistan. We should stop all negotiations with the Pakistanis until all infiltration from Pakistan is halted and the material support to the belligerents is shut off. The steps taken Pakistan should be verified and then a period of one or two years should pass before we restart the negotiations with Pakistan. But this time when we negotiate with them we should put the secession of the valley of Kashmir on the table. That is the only substantial carrot that will satisfy the Pakistanis and the Kashmiris. We should hold elections in the valley and if the people choose then let them leave the Union. Meanwhile we should make every effort to change the demographics of the valley in our favor by pushing in non-Muslims into the state in general and the valley in particular. Also we should make every effort to develop the region. In addition if Pakistan insists on the whole of Kashmir because it has a Muslim majority then we should accept their interpretation of the partition in totality and invite the Muslims living in India to leave India and become Pakistani citizens along with the transfer of Kashmir. India should in turn accept the transfer of Hindus and non-Muslims from Pakistan and Bangladesh. That would indeed be the finishing of the “unfinished” business that Pakistanis keep harping about. I don’t think Pakistanis would be stupid enough to accept another 150 Million non-Punjabi Muslims because that would bring to an end their society. Altaf Hauusain in UK would definitely become their next PM.


Karapall  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 139 of 239 )
anwarsad, "self-serving bigoted mindset of extreme hindu right wing"?? How convenient for all you muslim bigots.

Everyone must note that anwarsad here has not addressed the inherent bigotry in the hadiths that call for wholesale slaughter of polytheists. Instead he vents his impotent rage on hindus, because he CANNOT justify the dastardly ideology that is supported by all muslims.

The logic to the above claim is very simple: A true muslim must accept all of the Quran as the truth and the hadiths, which exemplify the behavior of a true muslims. Clearly this implies that the verses that I had posted yesterday finds the full support of the likes of anwarsad (Note that he has not stated that he disagrees with any of the quotes yet).

This is the kind of outright duplicitous behaviour exhibited by the so-called, mythical being known as a "secular muslims". Muslims have always demonstrated that they like secularism as long as they are minority. The moment the become a majority, the quest for the Ummah results in all secular priciples thrown out the window. You dont have to take my word for it; just look at the list of muslim countries in the world and you will find that there are exactly three countries that have accepted democracy; the rest have opted for islamic theocracy. Like I said, the pseudo-secular muslims need to openly voice dissent for offending parts of the Quran before they can be taken seriously. Otherwise, they are all just biding time until the moment they have the means to make India part of the islamic caliphate, which is the goal of all the deobandis and wahhabis in India.


Karapall  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 140 of 239 )
anwarsad,

Muslims like you who claim that India should hand over kashmir to pakistan are nothing short of traitors. Note how this "secular" answarsad glibly whitewashes the fact that the Kashmiris in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir have even less of a say on their territory, than the Indian side. Instead, he claims that the only way to solve the problem is to give in to islamic terrorism in Kashmir. In short, Mr. anwarsad here is openly supporting terrorism in India. I, for one, would not be surprised if anwarsad worships Osama Bin Laden every night before going to bed.

Again, note how anwarsad has COMPLETELY sidestepped addressing the quotes from the Quran, which contradicts the claim of muslims that Islam stands for "peace". If these fellows believe that a religious texts that supports the slaughtering the women and children of polytheists spread a message of "peace", then I would like to make a similar claim that I am actually the real Madhuri Dixit.


pmishra2  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 141 of 239 )
Karapall,

Nowhere did anwarsad make the statement if you have imputed to him. I am afraid your bald hatred of the "other" kind of people is showing through. Instead, he has said we have to be firm about Kashmir and hang in there. That is exactly the correct thing to say.

As for dragging up bits and pieces from the Koran and throwing it in the face of muslims --- lets agree its disgusting and silly. How many passages are there in Hindu texts that justify the caste system and atrocities against the "outcastes"?

Many, many 100s. So how do we "really" evaluate things? We look at the situation on the ground. The Indian state has an affirmative action system, there are more and more political, intellectual and other figures from these backgrounds. Hence, we have made a progress in this space (obviously, much remains to be done).

One of the current tragedies in India is though even we have managed to create a secular state with a solid middle-class which is Sikh, Muslim, Christian, and Hindu we have people who are trying to destroy this achievement. Don't you understand that this is the true "victory" of India and of Gandhi and Nehru's vision? Unfortunately, we have today (But not for ever!) people in power who do not want this "victory". They prefer small-minded revenge to a strong and just shared future.


surajj99  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 142 of 239 )
CALL FOR HIS EXTRADITION!

Here in the US, the media and gov't are typically covering up the fact that the American John Walker (the White Taliban fighter seen on CNN) was an active terrorist in Kashmir.

There is a simple way to highlight this very crucial piece of information. India should be calling for his extradition to face charges of terrorism and incitement of revolution. And the Indian press should be atleast as loud and obnoxious they were during the Denness debacle.

India must take full advantage of this opportunity to turn the screws on American (actually, White) indifference. After all, this guy has admitted to the world that he agrees with terrorism and has been directly involved in Kashmir (how he got there must be a mystery) . The likilhood of him firing on American troops is nill, since they are not in range. But the likihood of him firing on Indian troops is almost guaranteed.

Why aren't we calling for his head!? He has probably killed Indians in Kashmir without regret or conscience. Someone please do something about this ludicrous turn of events.


Karapall  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 143 of 239 )
pmishra2,

What statement imputed to anwarsad was not said by him? Do explain.

Anwarsad has specifically stated that India should hand over Kashmir to Pakistan. Anyone who says this clearly has an agenda that is at odds with Indian national security.

If you go to www.defensejournal.com , you wll notice that the pakistani ruling classes have a grand plan to balkanize India, since that is the only way they can make their "two-nation theory" a reality.

You say: "As for dragging up bits and pieces from the Koran and throwing it in the face of muslims --- lets agree its disgusting and silly. How many passages are there in Hindu texts that justify the caste system and atrocities against the "outcaste""

Look here, pal. I dont need some two-bit "secular intellectual" telling me what to say. The hard core islamists overtly state that everything in the Quran is the word of god and is irrefutable. I just posted some of these despicable words, which by the way HAS NEVER BEEN disavowed by any muslim on this board so far. So stuff your pseudo-secular BS up where the sun dont shine.

As for "hindu texts" preaching about the caste system, why dont you get a bit more specific and tell which "hindu texts" you are talking about, or is it in your nature to be deliberately vague?? In any case, hindus DO NOT state that everything written in their holy texts is irrefutable. The muslims on the other hand claim that even imposing a uniform civil code on all Indians is equivalent to "oppression of muslims". Cretins like you might think that is okay, but I find it despicable and objectionable.


Karapall  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 144 of 239 )
pmishra2 glibly states:

"Many, many 100s. So how do we "really" evaluate things? We look at the situation on the ground. The Indian state has an affirmative action system, there are more and more political, intellectual and other figures from these backgrounds."

The so-called Indian intellectuals who are mainly communist creeps have deliberately worked very hard to wipe out hinduism's name and stature in the past few decades. Clearly, you believe that you are one of these so-called intellectuals with your vacuous liberal posturing.

Again pmishra2 glibly states:

"One of the current tragedies in India is though even we have managed to create a secular state with a solid middle-class which is Sikh, Muslim, Christian, and Hindu we have people who are trying to destroy this achievement."

What bloody achievement are you talking about, pal. Christians and muslims run roughshod over the sensitivities of the hindu majority, and when there is a legitimate reaction to this kind of action, these aholes claim that all hindus who oppose their conversions and their free Haj subsidies are radical hindu bigots. Well, fuck the whole lot of you pseudo-secular assholes.

As for Gandhi and Nehru, they have done more harm than good to India's national unity. Gandhi was the ahole who started this who charade of appeasing the minority vote bank at the expense of the majority, which Nehru and his clan exploited to the hilt in maintaining their status as "India's royalty".

Nehru handed over India's Security Council seat in the UN to the Chinese, who then turned around and raped him. So dont preach to me about the men who had their own myriad faults which seem to overpower whatever virtues they might have had.



Don't you understand that this is the true "victory" of India and of Gandhi and Nehru's vision? Unfortunately, we have today (But not for ever!) people in power who do not want this "victory". They prefer small-minded revenge to a strong and just shared future.


samitsk  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 145 of 239 )
'An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind.' Mahatma Gandhi

There is no better example of this than the Israel-Palestine conflict which has claimed so many lives over the years. Israel has always retaliated with force, and the country's response has been held up as an example for us several times.

While all the adrenaline generated by the bravado will make us feel good for a while, it is important to see what the policy followed for 50 years has finally yielded them. Has the Palestine movement been cowed down ? Have terrorist attacks on Israeli citizens ceased and Jewish interests become safe across the world ? Definitely not !!

It is painful to see the policy of hatred being peddled as something progressive in India. Look around at your workplace, or in colleges for specialized higher studies. How many Muslims can you see ? Please do not talk of merit, I have seen enough reserved category candidates drop out of my engineering college because they could not even handle the first year. What did they do to deserve a seat in the first place ?

We as a country have failed to provide a supportive environment to the community. Beyond nurturing vote banks, Indian politicians have done absolutely nothing for the minorities. The community as a whole is turning inwards and finding solace in religion because all better alternatives have to be fought for, guarded by all the self-styled patriots here.

It is plain hypocrisy to propogate any particular religion and pretend to be secular. How can a religion be secular ? If we prosecute our minorities because Hindus are prosecuted in Bangladesh, how are we different from that country ?

The Taliban tried to impose uniformity in their country by prosecuting their minorities. See where it got them. Agreed, Pakistan, Bangladesh et al are all to be condemned. I strongly believe India is much better than all those countries put together. But by doing the same things here, what do we prove? That their thinking and policies are better and we need to copy them ?

I really fail to understand what is being suggested by the likes of VHP, Shiv Sena and the rest of the monkey brigade. That we will be truly secular if we are 100 % Hindu ? Why then are there so many similarities between the dictates of the Taliban and those of the Shiv Sena ? Ban on mixing of sexes, wearing of western clothes, hatred for minorities etc. Only the names change, the policies seem to be exactly the same.

Whether we like it or not, ethnic cleansing under any guise is not possible in India. The sooner we learn to live together, the faster we will progress. I care two hoots what stood earlier on the site of Babri Masjid or the Qutub Minar hundreds of years ago. What we should be worried about is that thousands of our people died and property in crores was destroyed in independent India because some fools think that two wrongs can make a right.



thetruth  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 146 of 239 )
Please stop Quoting the most successful humbug of the world Who we call MHATAMA GANDHI ....

thetruth  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 147 of 239 )
There will be fighting always ... War between good and bad will continue forever ... The world was never in peace and it will never be ..... What we can do is to try to make it peaceful and for that also we have to fight .. Fighting the enemies of civilisation is good always , but we should never talk to them ... So India should fight PIGSTAN ( so called pakistan ) always ... Only thing India should be brutal with PIGSTAN ... if INDIA DESTROYS PIGSTAN ,THAT WILL BE INDIA'S GREATEST CONTRIBUTION TO WORLD PEACE . ISRAEL IS FOLLOWING A PRACTICAL METHOD .. INDIA SHOULD DO THE SAME .... "DEATH TO PAKISTAN" is what we should say .

samitsk  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 148 of 239 )

I do believe my country has better and loftier reasons to exist than simply being anti-Pakistan or anti any other country.

Is it our own frustration that makes us scream for other's destruction while doing little to improve our own lot ?

To get back to the topic being discussed, I am strongly against talks at this stage. As I posted in my 1st message here, the wily General is only looking for another photo op for his domestic audiences. Mean while, let us continue with the pretense ourselves. Encourage more visits from Ms. Bhutto to embarrass the military regime. Our reasons will look valid too, we are more confortable with a democratic leader than the coup planner masquarading as the President.


Karapall  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 149 of 239 )
samitsk, you speak a lot of sense and I agree with most of what you say. But I think you dont understand that war and violence will remain no matter what. The fact is that when the dust clears either you or the enemy will be left standing, but only one of you. So you can either roll down and get slaughtered like you seem to recommend, or you can defend yourself. I dont know about you, but I would rather do the latter.

Karapall  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 150 of 239 )
samitsk,

Palestinians were offered many chances to have their own states in the last decade, but like the rest of their islamic brethren round the world, they chose to be uncompromising. They wanted some specific locations, and chose to forgo their right to self-rule just for that. I have little sympathy for the morons in palestine. The israelis, on the other hand, have shown remarkable resilience against the barbaric arab hordes who want to finish them off. GO ISRAEL!!!


shaitaan  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 151 of 239 )
I agree with samitsk, they should have erradicated all the palestine and arab in one shot, sala jehad what the fuck means jehad, if that was right sentiment india hasfull right to kill all the muslims in the world because,mugal invaded india and destroyed all the temples in india, go india and down muslims

samitsk  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 152 of 239 )
My comments are not directed against Israel, but against all parties in the conflict who have chosen means of violence to settle disputes. It is too easy to selectively quote history again and again till we are blue in the face. For example, a major grouse of the Arab states is that western powers interfered after WW II and forcibly carved out a Jewish state out of what were then Arab lands. (I am only reproducing an argument, I do not necessarily subscribe to it).

It does look like my point is not getting across. The only importance of Pakistan post Taliban is the Kashmir issue. And we, by being so obsessed by that country are giving it a relevance in the world order that it simply does not deserve at this point. Is that country a match for us militarily or economically ? No !!

The US ambassador to India Mr. Robert D. Blackwill said in a recent interview that hyphenation (Indo-Pak being spoken of in the same breath) is more in the Indian mind than in US. He says it is difficult to have a conversation on Indo-US relations without being asked after a few minutes about Pakistan and its role in Kashmir.

Why should our most important domestic policy (the conviction to remain secular) be dictated by what goes in elsewhere in the world ? Israel is surrounded by hostile states and I admire the country for its past record in beating all its enemies down. But we are not in the same situation. India is bigger than all our neighbors (leaving out China of course) out together. Yet we are so insecure as to consider happenings in even Bangladesh as impacting our domestic situation.

As Mark Twain had said, "The duty of a soldier is not to die for his country, but to ensure that his enemies die for their country." ;-)

I am not for rolling over and dying if it comes to a fight. I am for become strong enough to make our enemies think twice before thinking of even facing us.


shaitaan  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 153 of 239 )
That sounds so so.... We need a stable Pakistani govt. These idiots (paki-land) doesn’t have a democratic govt. after 50 years of independence, after all they thought they would live for happy ever after. Bernardshaw said Islam is a good religion but Muslims are worst followers, so my point is nothing wrong with Islam but the followers prostitute their own religion!! so they don’t have brain which can comprehend what exactly peace is because they were born with explosions around and guns as toys. imagine a typical Indian city were you can see people have guns around the neck. so it’s not a pleasant sight to see. They are goats and religion made them so stubborn. They never learned to be still. s are worst followers, so my point is nothing wrong with Islam but the followers prostitute their own religion!! so they dont have brain which can comprehand what exactly peace is because they were born with explosions around and guns as toys. imagine a typical indian city were you can see prople have guns around the neck. so its not apleasent sight to see. they are goats and religion made them so stubborn.

pmishra2  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 154 of 239 )
Just to keep us all in a good mood here is a NYTimes article about the clear Pakistani-Taliban link to the Kathmandu hijacking.

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/06/international/asia/06HOUS.html

Nothing new for folks in India, but it is good to see that finally word is getting out to the world at large.


luvvmann  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 155 of 239 )
pmishra2, you are one of those secular liberals who are either genuinly stupid or misinformed. either way it is dangerous. gandhi's non-violence did not work. it ended up with muslims misbehaving (sorry behaving just like muslims are supposed to)and the creation of pakistan. current signs indicate the muslims of india are again up to mischief. nehru was a miserable failure. he created the kashmir problem to spite sardar patel who wanted to solve it decisively in a timely fashion. if you are such a fan of secularism then i did not see you condemn pakistan or bangladesh for their treat ment of minorities. or do muslim minorities in india have special god given rights.

luvvmann  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 156 of 239 )
the fact is muslims in india are treated well just like any other citizen. there is no discrimination. infact they have their own personal laws which no other country provides. sorry, muslims are creating their own problems because it is easy to incite them in the name of religion. they are spoiling their own future and the future of the country. their leadership is anti-national and communal to the core. it is necessary to confront this menace. either we do it with strength and foresight or you are looking at a second bloody partition of the countrty. this means we have to have a common civil code. this means we have to take away kashmir's special status in the union. this means muslims should be discouraged to violent protest over stupid and trivial matters. this means communal muslim organizationa and madrasas have to be banned and closed for ever. muslim population has to be controlled just like other populations. also, pakistani mischief should be put to an end meaning a long drawn out plan to eliminate the paksitani state should be implemented. stop this secular claptrap in the name of cajoling the muslim masses for their vote. it will destroy what is left of our country.

Karapall  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 157 of 239 )
http://www.nationalreview.com/daily/nr112801.shtml

A truly excellent article in the national review. If certain elements have hijacked Islam's peaceful message, then it is high time moderate muslims stood up to those elements. Else, one can only assume tacit support to those elements.


samitsk  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 158 of 239 )
Great ! Pakistan and Bangladesh persecute their minorities. This is bad. Let us do the same, which will be good.

I would be ashamed to be called secular in the context in which the word is used in the Indian political arena, for then, I would be sharing this description with the likes of creeps from Samajwadi Party, RJD, Communists (I&M), Congress etc. These people have done much more harm to the cause of minorities than anyone else in the history of India.

From the overtures that US is making towards India, it does seem like our line of thought is being understood and respected now. The balancing act that Pakistan was doing in the War on Terror was of course unable to hide their complicity in the whole deal. So the best thing India can do now is just sit back and watch Mushy hang himself.

We have serious problems of our own to deal - Kashmir, North East, Naxals, general law and order, besides the sad state of our economy. The patience of the world is limited and as seen with Pakistan, whining and blaming others for your problems doesn't get you too far.

And this kind of progress can only happen only if we stop fighting each other and be one country. Patriotism is not proving someone else to be less patriotic. Patriotism is doing the best you can to make our country the greatest.


pmishra2  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 159 of 239 )
luwmann,

It is pretty clear you dont bother to read my messages. You are too busy saying nonsensical things like: "there is no discrimination against muslims in India etc.".

The reality much more complex. The indian state has been relatively secular and has allowed many of its citizens to make progress. This includes Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus,.... This is a major achievement and credit for this goes to Mahatma Gandhi, Nehru, Ambedkar and other people who helped create a secular indian state.

This does not mean India is a heaven for muslims. They are definitely discriminated againts, especially in North India, where there are many fundamentalist hindus. However, because we have a secular constitution they can use the legal and political system to help themselves. Hence, their situation is much better than minorities in Pakistan, where the legal and political system makes all kinds of disgusting distinctions between muslims and non-muslims.

Pakistan is a failed islamist state with no ideology except for hatred against "others": hindu, shia, ahmedi, ... (the list is infinite). If it continues on its current path, it is unlikely to survive more that 10-20 years more. We Indians should be very firm in Kashmir and other places, even if that includes going to war with them. BTW, There are very few non-islamic minorities in Pakistan, other than a small christian group (under 2 million?) and an even smaller hindu group in Sindh.

Bangladesh is another matter altogether. Bengali culture is much more secular and laid-back than Pakistani culture. While there have been recent attacks on Hindus (what about the killings of muslims around the great Advani's Rath Yatra?) I think there is a more positive atmosphere for minorities. Approx 10% of Bangladesh is hindu. Hindus have equal rights in the constitution.

My advice to you is to grow up and learn some history and politics. Just shouting "liberal" or "psuedo-secular" doesnt solve any problems. India has many great achievements as compared to many of its neighbors, it also has its problems (Shiv Sena, VHP,...). Resisting Pakistan and Hindu Fundus needs to be taken up on an equal basis.


Karapall  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 160 of 239 )
pmishra2,

your agenda is showing. You seem to believe that only hindu groups in India contribute to India's problems. What about the taliban supporting Jamaat-e-islami and the extremist groups that have been carrying terrorist attacks in the south?? How come all you pseudo-secular commies dont have a problem with that??


KLAMBA  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 161 of 239 )
Before we talk to Pakistan again, Musharaff must clarify these points: 1.Did he know that Talibaans were getting arms from Pakistan even after he changed sides? 2. Has he authorized defeated Talibaan fighters to get safe haven in Pakistan? 3.Why did he allow top nuclear scientists of Pakistan to pay repeated visits to Talibaan-controlled Afghanistan? His answers to the above questions will give an indication of his integrity.

Karapall  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 162 of 239 )
All the jokers like vinod mehta who seem to claim that Mushrraf has not transformed into a decent human being should try to remember that Musharraf is the architect of the kargil war. One wonders what Pakistan is paying the likes of vinod mehta and his traitoros journalist buddies for openly supporting pakistan's cause and giving the butcher of kargil free publicity.



http://hindustantimes.com/nonfram/091201/detFEA07.asp


Karapall  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 163 of 239 )
KLAMBA,

The paki army has not told the truth since 1947 and there is no reason for them to start now. If you want an insight into the paki army mentality, check out the articles from a premier ISI/Paki army journal.

www.defencejournal.com

Check out the articles in the June 99 timeframe. These are the kind of bare-faced liars we are contending with in Pakistan.


samitsk  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 164 of 239 )
Dear Mr. Vinod Mehta,

Though anybody sane enough would definitely be in favor of peace and in favor of talks in this direction, this should be no reason to jump the gun and rush into another trap laid for us by the General. See what Agra got us: we have effectively given away our right to PoK. General was received as a President and now even the rest of the world calls him Prez.

It is too early to say that "Pakistan has embarked on a historic journey. It is bravely confronting self-created demons." It does not take much to figure out that all this shift in direction is only due to arm twisting by US of A. Let them first change within, their hearts and minds are still with the Taliban.

And we know what the General wants to say when he meets us next. Give us Kashmir or else....
And we are kind of hearing the same thing over and over again. Let him prove he has something new to say if he wants to meet us.


I say we call Ms. Bhutto again and listen to the kinds of things we like to hear, even if that is also nothing new.

With Regards, Samit K.


adkar  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 165 of 239 )
The very basis of Pakistan's creation was ' anti-India'. This hatred for India has grown since its birth in Pakistan. No Govt. in Pakistan can survive without India-bashing and by forgetting that Kashmir was never, is not and will never be a part of Pakistan.General is no different.I feel there is no point in talking to Pakistan. All those who pull the goody-goody mask for talks should first talk to the families of soldiers who die for this country !!!

vivbh22  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 166 of 239 )
How can we even contemplate on talking to a General who, by his strong support to the US against the Taliban, has epitomised himself as an expert in double gaming, opportunism and back stabbing. In order to extract maximum amount of largesse from the US, the self styled CEO of Pakistan, aligned himself with the Americans and connived against the very Taliban who were his country's creation. He brushed aside all these charges by saying that policies of Pakistan change with the changing political climate of the world. We cannot rely upon such a man for indulging in meaningful dialogues to resolve the Kashmir issue. Moreover, as has been said before also, the issue of Kashmir is very central to the existence of Pakistan and to rein in the hardliners in that country. This means that Pakistan will always give a step motherly treatment to any initiative of peace.

vivbh22  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 167 of 239 )
How can we even contemplate on talking to a General who, by his strong support to the US against the Taliban, has epitomised himself as an expert in double gaming, opportunism and back stabbing. In order to extract maximum amount of largesse from the US, the self styled CEO of Pakistan, aligned himself with the Americans and connived against the very Taliban who were his country's creation. He brushed aside all these charges by saying that policies of Pakistan change with the changing political climate of the world. We cannot rely upon such a man for indulging in meaningful dialogues to resolve the Kashmir issue. Moreover, as has been said before also, the issue of Kashmir is very central to the existence of Pakistan and to rein in the hardliners in that country. This means that Pakistan will always give a step motherly treatment to any initiative of peace in the Kashmir valley.

samitsk  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 168 of 239 )
A couple of tips for those new to HTML. You can separate paragraphs by putting a <P> tag at the place where you want your new paragraph to start. Those familiar with HTML can go ahead and use other tags too. This would make our posts more readable, instead of it being in one continuous body of words.

Well, I had a look at the Defence Journal, the official website of Pakistan's defence forces. I must say it makes amusing reading.

Some action at last on the political front in Kashmir I guess, with the elections coming up at a rather opportune moment a few months later. I hope we seize this opportunity to heal a bleeding wound that has cost our country so many lives. If we assuage the feeling of hurt of our own people (viz. the Kashmiris), it would perhaps give our neighbor a lesser of a role in the Valley.

Rather than reacting to every provocative statement that comes from across the border, we should revel in the new found acceptance and respect India is being given on the world stage. All the world's developed nations seem to have suddenly discovered that they have been missing out on a stable, secular, multi-ethnic democracy that has been exisiting peacefully. And our being a source for the in demand IT professionals doesn't hurt too.

The signals coming from our Government are encouraging, the willingness to talk to the local militants and a commitment to holding free and fair elections in Kashmir. This will take the pressure off us to talk to murderers and fanatics masquerading to be statesmen-politicians after dislodging a democratically elected government in a military coup. Look who is advising us on "self-determination". Well, this forum seems to getting to be a dull place, with Mr. Vinod Mehta being in a minority of one. ;-) Anybody around who can keep the debate going ?


thetruth  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 169 of 239 )
VINODJI , these r for uhttp://www.kashmiri-pandit.org/elibrary/articles/plightofhindusinpakistan.html

thetruth  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 170 of 239 )
http://www.kashmiri-pandit.org/elibrary/articles/plightofhindusinpakistan.html

thetruth  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 171 of 239 )
http://www.kashmiri-pandit.org/elibrary/articles/plightofhindusinpakistan-prn.html

luvvmann  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 172 of 239 )
mr. pmishra2,

i stand by my statement that muslims in india are not dicriminated against. the problems brought upon them is their own making. infact, muslims blatantly discriminate against others, especially hindus. this is part of their upbringing. it has gotten worse in the past few decades due to many complex reasons. your urge to be secular is understandable. the muslims in india by and large are not secular and would not hesitate to impose an islamic regime if given the opportunity. the example of pakistan and bangladesh is prrof that indian muslims are communal to the core (they are indian muslims u know) calling themsleves with new names since 1947. the only reason for their existance as seperate countries is communalism and nothing else. can you give me one reason other than religion that bangladesh is a country today and not a part of bengal as a whole.


luvvmann  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 173 of 239 )
pmishra2, if india is secular today it is not because of gandhi or nehru. it is because hindus are secular by nature. that does not mean there is no discrimination. there is language discrimination, caste discrimination, color discrimination and this exists in hindus , sikhs, muslims and all communities in india. but muslims have taken communalism to dangerous levels. there is no balance within the community. even so-called liberal leaders are communal to the core. communalism pervades every aspect of muslim life. a give and take philosophy does not exist that is so essential to harmonious living. hindus are not perfect huamn beings and why should they be. for example within the hindus you have liberals (scumbags), communists (taritors), congesswallas (cowards and opportunists), conservatives, patriots etc. within the musli community this spectrum is lacking giving it an inflexible fundamentalist edge.

luvvmann  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 174 of 239 )
pmishra2, look at facts. there are no hindus and sikhs in pakistan today especially ijn punjab. lahore was a hindu majority city even in 1947. what is the reason. muslims drove them out or killed them or made life impossible. in india exactly the opposite is the case. a few muslims did leave for pakistan but the overwhelming majority stayed in india. in 1947 muslim population in india was 9% today it is 15% and growing. in addition 10 million illegal muslims from bangladesh are in india. in addition the hindus of bangladesh and kashmir are being driven out of their homes. most hindu liberals are cowards , liars, and communists. they want to act intellectual and show off as being superior. infact they are idiots who are scumbags. look at the fcats and counter them if you may.

pmishra2  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 175 of 239 )
luwmann,

(1) There was a lot of killing and getting rid of muslims from India in 1947 as well. This is specially the case in north india (delhi, punjab, jammu). Jammu, for example, used to be a muslim majority area.

(2) The indian state is under attack from all kinds of extremists. It is under attack from Pakistan, from the Shiv Sena, VHP and Bajrang dal, from SIMI, from the ultra-left wing PWG. All of these extremist people want to destroy it.

(3) Definitely broad minded hindu culture is one reason for secularism and democracy in India. However, the bigger reason is that instead of creating a narrow-minded hindu state in 1947 we created a secular democracy which is open to all. We were lucky to have a broad-based and broad minded leadership at that time, especially Gandhi.

(4) Try to learn from history in and around History. Remember Sant Bhidranwale -- the sikh extremist cultivated by Indira Gandhi? How is what is happening with the VHP and babri masjid different than that? In both cases, a completely crazy movement is being tolerated and built up. I think you know what happened to Indira and Bhidranwale, and what a big price was paid by many indians for that.

(5) The great thing is that India has actually "won" --- its survival and recent rapid economic growth is a tremendous achievement. We should understand why it won and support it in an intelligent ways. But it is as though some Indians actually envy pakistan, they want to behave in a similar way.

This is the great paradox: pakistan is a failed state that may not even survive 10 or 20 years more. But many indians (Shiv Sena, VHP, others tolerated by our govt) seem to want us to become more like Pakistan!


samrao  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 176 of 239 )
India and Pakistan are on the opposite spectrum of political ideologies. India, based on secular democracy, one man one vote, separation of the state and religion…. Pakistan on the other hand is based on beliefs of 7th century religion, represented by Army Generals for most of its history. How there can be talks? Talk about what ?. Unless there is a change in Pakistani mind set, nothing will come out in one meeting or 100 such meetings.

luvvmann  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 177 of 239 )
pmishra2, I have to disagree with you on principle. i support a secular india and the freedoms we enjoy. you are bypassing the basic issue.

1. If india were to be 50-60% muslim what would be the hindus fate. will india be still secular. i can assure you that will not be the case. hindus will be massacred day in and day out.

2. i disagree with you about muslim killings in india. the killings in punjab and the vicinity were in retaliation to killings in pakistan. there was no large scale movement of muslims from india to pakistan (relative). kerala has the highest muslim population percent wise after kashmir. none of them left. muslims continue to pour into assam and bengal from bangladesh causing demographic desaster for india.


luvvmann  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 178 of 239 )
pmishra2,

the percentage of muslims in w. bengal and assam is a cause for great alarm. the bloody communist bastards in calcutta are out to destroy the country. they are more in love with china than their own mother country. 3. what is your interest in supporting the muslims. you seem to be a hindu. let the muslims put their view forward. have you ever seen a muslim supppot a hindu cause.


thetruth  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 179 of 239 )
NO TALK WITH THE PIGS OF PIGSTAN

mohinder  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 180 of 239 )
Pakistan is an evil terrorist state which has only allah, mulla, lulla and burka. It has an industry of AK47's and heroin smugglng. No democracy, no dancing, no music, no debate. Only hate allah, mulla, lulla and burka. Clearly it is an evil enterprise. And Vinod Mehta is the softest of Indian liberals. Maybe even soft in the head. He sits with Hamid Mir, a known defender of Osama and vinod blows kisses at him. Then Mr Mehta manages to eat a free kebab here or there. Once a while even in Pakistan. So if Indian soldiers end up dyeing trying to defend Indian democracy and freedom, it doesnt bother Vinod, who would rather have a free kebab. Mr Mehta even defended the guys who launced an attack on our Parliament, so may want to defend Pakistan at each juncture. But bullshit. India should have nothing to do with the evil enterprise called Paadistan, till it becomes democratic and ends narco terrorism......

luvvmann  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 181 of 239 )
mohinder, i agree with you. these bastards like vinod mehta and smelly cunts like anita pratap are an insult to intelligence. the free kababs and money thay get from pakistan is making them write bullshit lies. the corrupt print media in india is on the payroll of the pakis and the chinese. nothing better can be expected fom these bastards. i congratulate you for exposing these anti-national morons.

maky  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 182 of 239 )
dear Luvvmann, I really admire your never say die spirit in denouncing likes of Vinod Mehta.These so called liberal have caused greater harm than all the pakis put together.These people haven't yet realised horrors of a way of life called Islam.Let them face the music once, they will sing your tunes.Anyway keep it up.

Shashi71  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 183 of 239 )
Phir Bhi Dil Hai Hindustani
Dear Outlook Editor

How can u allow these kind of articles.. who the hell are Vishal Mehta and Anita Pratap. Are they your relatives, dear editor?

Hey Guys.. I have a doubt bout these pinkos.. Check their birth certificate.. I am sure they are Pakis.

Anita & Vishal -- Did your mother went to Paki or Paki came to your Mother ?

Waiting for your answer ?


luvvmann  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 184 of 239 )
maky, thank you. your support and more people like you are required. join the crusade against these traitors. they do more harm to us than the pakis themsleves.

luvvmann  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 185 of 239 )
maky thank you.

mohinder  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 186 of 239 )
Pakistan is an evil terrorist state which has only allah, mulla, lulla and burka. It has an industry of AK47's and heroin smugglng. No democracy, no dancing, no music, no debate. Only hate allah, mulla, lulla and burka. Clearly it is an evil enterprise. And Vinod Mehta is the softest of Indian liberals. Maybe even soft in the head. He sits with Hamid Mir, a known defender of Osama and vinod blows kisses at him. Then Mr Mehta manages to eat a free kebab here or there. Once a while even in Pakistan.THIS IS ONE WAY HE ENSURES HIS OWN SAFETY against evil MADARCHOD terrorists who are attacking our freedoms. So if Indian soldiers end up dyeing trying to defend Indian democracy and freedom, it doesnt bother Vinod, who would rather have a free kebab. Mr Mehta even defended the guys who launced an attack on our Parliament, so may want to defend Pakistan at each juncture. But bullshit. India should have nothing to do with the evil state of paadistan...

jscumm  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 187 of 239 )
don't talk to pakiland but disintegrate it

luvvmann  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 188 of 239 )
jscum for president.

mohinder  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 189 of 239 )
Pakistan is an evil terrorist state which has only allah, mulla, lulla and burqa. It has an industry of AK47's and heroin smugglng. No democracy, no dancing, no music, no debate. And Vinod Mehta is the softest of Indian liberals. Maybe even soft in the head. He sits with Hamid Mir, a known defender of Osama and vinod blows kisses at him. Then Mr Mehta manages to eat a free kebab here or there. Once a while even in Pakistan.THIS IS ONE WAY HE ENSURES HIS OWN SAFETY against evil MADARCHOD terrorists who are attacking our freedoms. So if Indian soldiers end up dyeing trying to defend Indian democracy and freedom, it doesnt bother Vinod, who would rather have a free kebab. Mr Mehta even defended the guys who launched an attack on the Parliament. He even donated Kashmir to the arsehole genereal bcos mehtaji thought that the eviol creature is our guest and mehmannawaazi is our culture. I suspect this is one way Mr Mehta ensures his own safety from the madarchod terrorists.....

Karapall  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 190 of 239 )
Mohinder,

You got the motivation of cowardly arsehole traitors like Vinod Mehta and the whore Anita Pratap right on the money. Good job!


maky  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 191 of 239 )
It is great misfortune of Hindus that imbalanced people like Vinod Mehta,Anita Partap,Rajdeep Sardesai,Burkha Dutt et al are torchbearers of Secularism.These people think secularism and tolerance are one way traffic.How sadly misguided are these people.First and foremost we cn do is ignore these bastards as if they don't exist.This is my last post in retortion to these so called secular assholes.

safize  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 192 of 239 )
hi guys this space was for discussion concerning the talks with pakistan:to talk or not to talk?.swearing at homebred 'maderchods' ,'whores','chinaals','cretins'(whatever that means) can be done in other spaces.look out for those.free speech devotes a lot of space for those who have a good vocabulary.'maderchod' vinod mehta can be appreciated for that atleast.

Karapall  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 193 of 239 )
safize,

Fine talk for terrorist-loving vermin like you. After all Vinod Mehta and his ilk are more pro-pakistan than they are pro-India, and you as an Indian muslim find that an admirable quality in the man, I am sure. Here is a gist of your "tolerant" islamic background.

People who would like to check out islam's tolerance can go to

www.orst.edu/groups/msa/quran

Thi s is a muslim site maintained by a muslim. Now check out the following Quranic verses for their "tolerance": (sura:verse)

5:51 -- ....not to make friendship with jews and christians...

2:19 -- "kill the disbelievers wherever we find them"

9:5 -- "fight and slay the pagans, seize them, beleaguer them and wait for them in every stratagem"

9:123 -- "fight them on until there is no more persecution, and religion becomes allah's in its entirety"

So much for islamic "peace and tolerance", as liars like you have repeated so often on this board.

Why dont you find similar verses in the new testament for me, pal.


Karapall  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 194 of 239 )
safize,

If you want to know what a "cretin" is, you have to look no farther. Just step in front of a mirror and you will realize the meaning of that word.


Karapall  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 195 of 239 )
safize,

Since you seem to be a true pakistani patriot, maybe you could explain why India should talk to pakistan at this time, when muslim terrorists from Pakistan are creating havoc all across India. I know your sympathies lie with these terrorists, but still us outsiders need to know what runs in your little jihadi heads.


Karapall  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 196 of 239 )
What India needs is a vigilante group that will line up vermin like Teesta Setalvad, Vinod Mehta and the whore Anita Pratap, and present each of them with a bullet in the head. Given the way things are going, I am sure some bright youngster will come up with this idea all on their own.

Karapall  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 197 of 239 )
Here is another gem from the Quran: Sura 4, verse 78:

"Wherever ye are, death will find you [Kafirs] out, even if ye are in towers built up strong and high"

Islamic powers of persuasion at their finest....almost brings a tear to one's eye when one reads about such tolerance reeking from the Quran and its followers.


Karapall  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 198 of 239 )
Now, maybe the pseudo-secular imbeciles on this forum could explain why the RSS's resistance to such murderous ideology is "communal", when it is abundantly clear that Islam is a murderously communal religion to the core.

Karapall  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 199 of 239 )
Look at the cretin Vinod Mehta talking about pakistan's "historic journey" when it was just announced yesterday that Masood azhar and 900 other terrorists are going to be released from pakistani prison. In face, the paki newspaper Dawn (www.dawn.com) states that Masood Azhar, head honcho of the Lashkar-e-Toiba is given a 10,000 Rupees a months as "sustenance allowance". Hurrah for our paki brothers and their friends who run Outlook India

You are such a visionary, Vinod Mehta. Maybe you should move on to astrology and make a fortune. At least there will be fewer journo-traitors like you doing good PR work for the pakis and we can have some "communal" journalists who actually put India's interests first.


luvvmann  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 200 of 239 )
karapall, we cannot blame the ass vinod mehta and the pig safize for siggesting that we talk to pakistan. after all these idiots are anti-national to the core. but look at what vajpayee is doing. he was elected to solve the kashmir problem and be strong against pakistan. what has he done. he goes to lahore and makes a fool of himself. in kargil when india should have crossed the LOC he sacrificed a 1000 indian troops to kick the fucking pakistanis out. to top that he invites musharraf the architect of kargil and treats him like a rock star. i have to say here that i am completely disgusted with vajpayee's total paralysis. he is writing poetry when terrorists are attacking temples and our security forces. something has to change. there is a dangerous drift with vajpayee, the BJP cadre is in disarray. india is loosing all the gains from this fight against terrorism. india should have attacked pakistan in january itself. pakistan would dare not use nuclear weapons with the US around. even otherwise things have gone too far and we cannot let pakistan go scot free. the americans are playing a game against indian interests and india has to call the bluff. i am afraid vajpayee has gone senile.

joy  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 201 of 239 )
I vote for sending Kara bhai and Luv bhai as our vaseline-deficient phallic army to Pakistan. Two purposes will be served- the Pakis will receive pain, and in the process two precious Indian lingams will be dented for good. Whether the denting of the lingams will lead to a denting of verbal bellicosity is another matter. Kara bhai, Luv bhai, get ready for some vaseline-less drilling- you are our new ambassadors.

Karapall  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 202 of 239 )
http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/today/editor/opi2.h tm

Funny op-ed on pakistan's Dictator and his shenanigans.


ravis  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 203 of 239 )
never never never . f*** them to the core . they are troubling us for so long now its time for us to f*** THEM BACK

Karapall  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 204 of 239 )
joy,

Clearly, you are a bit confused about the use of phalluses, and the applicability of vaseline in phallus-based activities.

firstly, not applying vaseline will not result in "dents" in the phallus, unless, maybe, if you smash a turgid phallus against some rigid foreign object with considerable force.

Secondly, the pakis will not be feeling the pain in such an event, the owners of aforementioned phalluses WILL feel pain. So your "idea" is an arbitrary concatenation of words in your limited vocabulary, or so it seems.

If your intent is to cause the pakistanis a lot of pain and suffering, I suggest you just go over and expose your self-proclaimed wit and sarcasm to the pakistani public. The pakis will be smashing their heads against hard objects in no time at all, I can assure you.


joy  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 205 of 239 )
Kara bhai, I am seared to the core of my flesh by your masterfully veiled sarcasm. Thanks for removing my misconceptions about vaseline-less-drilling. Your knowledge of technical issues is as profound as your grasp of the socio-economics of our time. I am in no way prejudiced against your or Luv bhai's lingams.

Karapall  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 206 of 239 )
Musharraf makes a threat to nuke India and what do the cocksuckers in the Indian media do?? They keep quiet.

Now compare this to the hullaballoo created by these very same cocksuckers in the Indian media when Padmanabhan mentioned nukes in his press conference a few months. With patriots like these turds vinod mehta and his ilk, we dont need external enemies to screw us.


Karapall  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 207 of 239 )
In fact, outlook and the hindu are both carrying "Exclusive interviews" that provide PR for the pakistani dictator. I am sure Musharraf loves Indian editors Vinod Mehta, N. Ram, and Shekar Gupta; he sure has found lifelong friends in them. Bravo, Indian journos. You have done your country proud. Now, please ask musharraf to reciprocate by allowing you turds into pakistan.

luvvmann  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 208 of 239 )
karapall, you are correct. when padmanabhan very clearly and brilliantly sent a message to Musharraf bastard, he was close to reprimanded by his own minister. the reason is this. the stupid vajpayee and the idiots heading the govt. today have abdicated their responsibility. jaswant singh and the vajpayee camp have completely mishandled the situation. why should we worry about turds like vinod mehta, N.Ram, Shekhar Gupta etc. these are known corrupt asshole journalists on the dole of pakistan and china. they are communists anti-nationals. but, is vajpayee behaving any better. he fired a brilliant army general for wanting tactical advantage. padmanabhan was told not to make "nuclear threats" when he did not make any threat. he said, if mushy bastard uses nukes he will be wiped out. a perfectly sensible and sane statement. but vajpayee and fernandes would have none of that truthful talk. padmanabhan made them look like idiots in those brief 5 minutes with his professional demeanor.it is time the BJP cadre revolted against the vajpayee camp, if not the end is near for the party.

sunila  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 209 of 239 )
I think Vinod Mehta is trying to save his own arse from stupid terrorists when he rushes to defend them. Remember mehtaji is that same chootiya who got so scared of general and dictator Parvez mastrubator that in agra, mehtji even donated kashmir of. The solution to Kashmir lies in taking an agrressive posture and even claiming POK. This will push Pakis to the defensive. We should also encourage seccesionist movements in baluchistan, Sindh, Pakhtoonistan, Balwaristan and MQM. After all Pakistan is an evil state. Once it is fragmented it can become secular and democratic. Pakis have anyway armed all terrorists in India. it is time to play the game like men. Not the way arseholes like vinod mehta or Anita Pratap suggest....

Karapall  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 210 of 239 )
sunila,

You are absolutely right. I recall having a conversation with an editor of a magazine about three years ago. I pointedly asked him why the Indian media reffered to pakistani terrorists as militants, doing a great disservice to the Indian public by openly playing the game according to the rules of the terrorists. His answer, and this guy was not even apologetic about it, was that he feared for his life. I realized back then that the only way to get these cocksuckers in the Indian media to behave was to make them fear for their life. The only thing that will make them stop kissing musharraf's shoes and support the Indian interests and strategies is to make them more afraid of the Indian public than they are of the terrorists.


Karapall  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 211 of 239 )
In fact, only after september 11th, these morons in the Indian media got the courage to call the paki terrorists as terrorists. So much for the Indian press spreading "information and dissent". If ever there are a bunch of self-serving, cowardly lowlifes, it is the scumbags in the Indian media such as Vinod Mehta, Shekar Gupta, and N. Ram. They need to fear for their lives before they empathize with the majority of Kashmiri pundits who live in fear for their lives.

vishag  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 212 of 239 )
No. Not at all. We should talk with at LEAST an ELECTED leader.Nothing less than that. Otherwise I will be ashamed to call myself an INDIAN (Again)

vishag  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 213 of 239 )
No. Not at this stage. We can talk , when the conditions for stand off , of the armies change. If I were a FAUJI ,I would have loved the war in the month of January 2002 itself.

rahulk  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 214 of 239 )
Karapall, Luvmannm, and Joy..(Did I miss out any?)

Well, what do u get out of this? Guj has shown the way: Economic boycott. I started doing that, with Outlook, and The Hindu(Shouldnt it be The Muslim!) Dont buy both. I think many people think the same way.

I check into this site, only to read u. Hey, Karapall: Mind mailing me? Cheers!


luvvmann  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 215 of 239 )
I strongly support rahulk. boycott anti-national muslim stores and businesses. boycott outlook, hindu, times of india,and all dailies that are anti-india and anti-hindu. this will taech these bastards a lesson. stinking matherchots.

luvvmann  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 216 of 239 )
NO TALK WITH PAKISATN. DESTROY THE COUNTRY OF PAKISTAN AND SACK IT"S CAPITAL ISLAMABAD. ERASE THAT CITY FROM THE SOIL OF PUNJAB, INDIA. RENAME IT RAWALPINDI.

jwalker  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 217 of 239 )
Since words have failed, I would say give mimes a chance. Here is a solution: Let India and Pakistan invite two mimes to the peas conference. (It would have to be two - 'cos two mimes are better than one). Whoever whorls the most peas wins. The loser will have to give up Kashmir peasfully and would have firmly supported whorled peas. That way the common man has a mime in every say. And a mime is such a terrible thing to waste.

Of course, broadcasts on the internet may be a pain if the mime-type is not recognized.


luvvmann  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 218 of 239 )
jwalker, chutiya suwar ka land gadhe ke bache. matherchot, there will no "peas" and no talks with pakistan. the motherfuckers will be thrashed and their capital sacked. no more islamambad on the map, you cock sucking moron.

Karapall  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 219 of 239 )
Heh heh, that was funny, jwalker.

somnath4  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 220 of 239 )
I have some times wondered why is the Kashmir issue a bilateral one, is it because we have an old colonial hangover of partition or we love to sweep all our problems under the carpet and dig our head in the sand. May be it¿s the both, cos we sure cant trust our neighbors to mediate in some thing as `sensitive¿ as Kashmir. So what we do, we let in Uncle Sam through the back door, who tell us in just as many words ¿¿ start the dialogues NOW, choose you want to go to the negotiating table smiling or we drag you kicking and screaming.¿¿ And guess why is Uncle Sam so eager to broker peace in the subcontinent? You think they are here to save the world and don¿t want us third world natives to play with nukes and want to see our children get education and our women get healthcare; then I must say that you are suffering from a illusion of a delusion. All uncle Sam is aiming is the oil in the Caspian sea and its access from any where not just to quench its ever increasing energy needs, but also any other industry that its going to set up in the Indian western coast, in which America has controlling interests. That¿s why they have set out to see we don¿t play with nukes and practice war rhetoric by keeping mum from mussruff referendum to any excesses committed by the Indian military in the valley. All they are looking for is the oil and gas pipeline to flow and the whole region falls under there dictate. The beginning has been pretty good the axis of evil has included Iran, permanent presence in Afghanistan and Pakistan and all energy using factories in the western coast of India. It¿s an amazing enterprise that they want to run, and we are just a clog in the whole machine, of this amazing WORLD ENTERPRISE. This is unfortunately the package that we are sold to and is moving towards at break neck speed . This not only gives uncle Sam a permanent toehold in the region it also negates our options of dealing with some one else cos if we ever try to be naughty to our beloved uncle the taps will be turned off and our business will undergoe energy starved death. But I still think there is time for the sanity to return, we not only need a third party meditation in the Kashmir issue but we need some one from Asia to do it who is preferably a party to it too. Some one like china, some one Pakistanis trusts and some one who has akshichien under its control. As we slide towards a inevitable war with Pakistan and uncle Sam¿s back door diplomacy in this matter will be as disastrous as there middle east one. Think we should ask the dragon to take a look at our problem, who knows we three might just get married and live happily ever after amen.

Karapall  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 221 of 239 )
somnath4,

Tell me one thing. WHY are Indians refusing to talk about or discuss the partition. Most of the so-called Indian intellectuals (who have a socialist/communist) like to pretend that the partition never happened, just like the idiot bastard Jawaharlal Nehru did.

If we actually discussed such issues in the public, we might have a lot less animosity between hindus and muslims. As it stands, the hatred is just seething below the surface, which is no good.


goyal  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 222 of 239 )
luwmann

You have the right idea...take Pakistan off the map, rename Islamabad as Rawalpindi.... Last discussion was over years back when Pak invaded Kashmir..... History is on your side also....there was no country between India and Afghanistan for over 5000 years (except for the British creation and appeasement 50 years ago)

You have a great position and some very patriotic ideas...but slow down on profanity...for people like me who are "over the hill" it is embarrasing and disgusting....I hope you will consider this......


luvvmann  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 223 of 239 )
goyal, thanks for your support. my profanity is for certain people only and really it is against ideas and not individuals. you will see different kinds of postings for me. one for the josh, pmishra2, ramesh12 kind (fucking assholes). the other for sane people like yourself.

Karapall  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 224 of 239 )
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Articleshow.asp ?art_id=7548296

India is most vulnerable to external threats, all the communists and whisky drinking sods should pay some attention.


saurabhs  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 225 of 239 )
All,

Along comes another article by people like Ajit Bhattacharjee who insist on sitting on moral highgrounds! First Jinnah was justified, the Bukhari now Musharraf!! Kudos to us Indians!!!

The author pleads that Musharraf is facing problems from hardliners. It doesnt really matter to him who propped the hardliners in first place! Who was the person who started Kargil. If he had done his homework correctly he would remember that this is the same guy who had refused to follow the protocol when India's PM had gone to Pakistan.

But then we are always interested in what world says about us! Just watch out what happens when even a country like England comes to India. Everybody from Naseer Hussain to Ashley Giles writes columns in Indian papers. Who cares if foreigners never want to read what Tendulkar or Dravid has to say leave alone a Sanjay Bangar!

Mr. Ajit if you have a single aorta of decency you would not have stooped to such levels! Peoples like you have defamed this country's honest citizens and journalists!

Saurabh


luvvmann  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 226 of 239 )
saurabhs, why do you think i repeatedly condemn the bengali communists. these rotten motherfuckers will sell their mother and sister to be fucked for money. ajit bhattacharjee is a bengali communist rotten fish. it does not take much to see the author's name and instantly conclude as to what the article could say. see a bengali name and you will be 99% correct that it will be pro pakistan, pro china, pro muslim, pro everything, but without a doubt anti-hindu and anti-india to the core. these prostitutes can only exist because we let them exist. they should be shot on sight.

Karapall  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 227 of 239 )
well said, saurabhs!! It amazzes me how these antiu-national motherfukkers in the Indian media are so openly for Musharraf, the butcher of Kargil. Bastards like A. Bhattacharjee must be dragged out and shot for writing fluff PR pieces for the enemy. The religious jihadi terrorists have ALWAYS BEEN a tool of the paki army and that has not changed even after sep. 11.

Now, these jihadis are directed by the paki army and ISI to direct all their violence against India and Indians. And here we have this asshole and the asshole editor Vinod mehta trying to sell the pakistani army's line to Indians. With Indians like Vinod Mehta and this bastard A. Bhattarcharjee, not to mention the bitch Anita "look, I actually a white person" Pratap, we dont need any external enemies.


saurabhs  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 228 of 239 )
Karapall,

I am surprised how short memory we have! Middle East can burn with a crisis that is centuries old however in India a national issue is stale after 4-5 years!! I can understand putting other countries perspective but giving incomplete and wrong picture to the the citizens! This is blasphemous. A normal Indian citizen who doesnt have all facts on his head can really be brainwashed by these idiots!

India has minus points, lots of it! However we are any given day better than most countries in the world! I am surprised how these journalist are selected in the first place. I am sure we can write a more fair article than these gooseheads!

Saurabh


arvraj  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 229 of 239 )
I am really surprised by the idea of some leaders that India should talk to Pakistan. How could one talk peace with someone who understand peace. Pakistan the exporter of terror worldwide is a rogue state and it makes no sense talking to them on any issue. A state which is responsible for turmoil in India, which shells our borders everyday, which exports terrorists into our country, kidnaps our embassy staff and torture's them again and again has to be taught a lesson. We should talk to Pakistan only with a gun. Infact India should cut off all kinds of relations with Pakistan, close our embassy there. Unless we do this immediately there's a greater chance of these Paki's creating J&K's all over India for we have so many sympathisers of Pakistan inside India.

luvvmann  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 230 of 239 )
avraj, my man for president. i fully agree.

Free Speech Host  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 231 of 239 )
Message Deleted by Free Speech Host

coolvick  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 232 of 239 )
Ajit Bhattacharjee is like many cockle brained Indian politicians,who speak for the sake of it.Pakistans military regime is itself based upon religious fundamentalism.Whatever the Pakistan Govt tries to portray in front of International Community,they cannot baffle the indians.So the question of talks doesnt arise.And Mr Ajit,the Govt has takenthe resolve not to talk tothem till they handover the wanted militia. Pls dont speak otherwise,we dont want another vibhishan!!

Vikram Mahaldar


gandalf  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 233 of 239 )
Avraj/lowman.. so whats your point.. cld you think through and give us your soln to the Pakistan Problem. You cld first identify the problem and then the points on how to solve it. I really want to know

vaas  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 234 of 239 )
chorki saath chor sipoy? Take the cue from Americans.Pakistan understands only one language correctly.MIGHT.Three "A"s govern PAkistan,whether its people like it or not.Army,Allah&America.The third A may well become C(china),we may not know.As a guy who is working with Pakistanis(they dont want to be called pakis)who say TAx evasion is their national pastime,(and will you believe,almost everybody send money thru havala market and not thru banks.)I tell this to throw more light on what Pakistanis think of their own country.,outside of it.The world knows nawaz sharief went with both hands folded to Clinton when KArgil was being won by India,to save his face.Lesson?? They undersatnd Force and Might.If their Dil mange more,give them na?Talk?? You talk to gentlemen,not to rogues.

gandalf  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 235 of 239 )
So what do you think indian pastimes are you sad little thing?. 1.2% of people pay taxes in India. Your aobjective is noble.. your points are self defeating

bangy  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 236 of 239 )
Hey Vaas,iam sorry to say you are throwing stones on your enemy's home through a glass window in your home . If Pakistan is ruled by AAA then India is ruled by CCCs(Criminals,corruptionists,Cowards).None of the Indian leader has the guts to reform the proliferating madrassas in India which will overtake Pakistani madrassas soon in terrorists production.We don't have the guts to speak against any muslim.So better leave the idea of having Kashmir and let india be ruled CCA( Criminals,Corruptionists and Americans).Atleast we won't be called cowards.

crusader  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 237 of 239 )
Talks with Musharaf is equivalent to Casting Pearls before Swines.Why repeat another Agras?

luvvmann  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 238 of 239 )
gandalf, i have already given my solution for pakistan. have you missed it, surely not. pakistan cannot be allowed to exist in it's present form. it has to be broken into pieces if peace is the "requirement". simply put, you cannot ignore a mad dog or a poisonous snake in your backyard. with pakistan, there will never be peace in the subcontinent. no progress either. without pakistan there will be "manageable" peace. problems will exist, but will be manageable. peace will prevail and all people will progress economically, including your favorite nationals "pakistanis". war is inevitable. either we have it today and kill a million (maybe), or, we can have it tomorrow and kill ten million, or the day after, killing a hundred million. it is our choice. i prefer to take care of them now. i do not believe it will be a nuclear war, and if it is we should be prepared for it. a stitch in time saves nine. we should have finished them off a long time ago. but that is spilt milk. no use talking about it now. china and america and britain are behind pakistan's belligerance. we better take care of the problem before the problem takes care of us.

luvvmann  4/26/2002 3:11:52 PM  ( 239 of 239 )
crusader is correct. i agree.

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