Pseudo Sciencce Astrology ClapTrap In The University Curricula?!?

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Astrology As Science?
Free Speech Host 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM
Murli Manohar Joshi and other assorted ideologues of the Sangh Parivar seem pretty thrilled with the introduction of Astrology as science in Indian universities, oblivious to the criticism from those who know better. What is your take?

Messages

ssss 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 1 of 259 )
Astrology is a ancient science of not only hinduism but even practised in usa.To teach it not bad (for people to sell dreams are needed and funds generated),but can any astrloger predict events today accurately when even present isnot what it seems.Then why does government and business not take help in predicting economy, scams and understanding present.And no astrolger can read god,a unknown force who manipulates puppets humans destinies and a astrolger professes to read future to be created by god accurately(for only he creates future) .But good business today in a age of insecurities/flux for rich/poor.And can a astrologer tell present forces affecting India accurately and solutions for them.Maybe a science destroyed by invadors.

Admin 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 2 of 259 )
From Avinash Pandey

You continue to find authors whose writings are filled with lingual sophistry (but almost nil in subject matter) which appeal to the arm chair intellectuals of the Nehruvian mould. So what if your author is a Physics Professor at Princeton, I too am an IIT graduate and a Silicon Valley professional in the 2nd largest software company in the world.

Coming to the main point, whether Jyotish (I prefer the original Sanskrit term) is called a science (although, I think that it is) or not does not matter.

What matters is that "it works" and the process has started to give it formal reckoning and accountability. This will be great not only to produce formally qualified practitioners of Jyotish Shaastra but also free it from charlatans and fake pundits.

Educated people look down upon Jyotish because it has been mal-practiced by practitioners possessing half baked knowledge. We cannot blame the field just because its practitioners are dishonest or do not have full knowledge of it. But with formal education and (scientific and statistical) research it is bound to be accepted as a major science.

It does not matter whether there is a physical proof if the planets affect us, but undoubtedly the predictive techniques of Jyotish "work" (unless one has been fleeced by some charlatan to do Shaanti for Shani/Saturn or some other planet)! I myself have learnt Jyotish and found it to correlate very closely to my and my family's life. A qualified and honest Jyotishi can "easily" give upto 70% accurate analysis. An expert can even give predictions with even 95% confidence. Since it is a predictive technique, 100% accuracy may not be possible (even weather forecast is not 100% accurate).

The west is taking it up seriously, there are already formal institutes (providing training and doing research) of Vedic Astrology in the US, UK, Australia, Russia and European countries. Please visit some of the websites for yourself:

http://www.vedicastrology.org/ http://www.bava.org/ http://welcome.to/jyotish http://www.goravani.com/ http://www.vedanet.com/ http://www.sjvc.org/ http://www.ayurveda.com/

and many others. (You can do an internet search yourself).

Jyotish is helpful in predicting diseases and is closely connected to Ayurveda, another Indian system gaining acceptability in the West. Using Jyotish, Russians have even established correlations between planetary configurations and earthquakes! Some astrologers had predicted the Gujrat earthquake in January this year. But since Jyotish is not formally recognized, over 25,000 people lost their lives. This is exactly what the ancient Indian sages meant by Kali Yuga. We are unable to utilize the wisdom (which includes Jyotish) given to us by them.

I hope this writing gives you some pointers to the other side of the coin also.

ssss 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 3 of 259 )
Hi avinash.Seems like have good idea of astrology,ancient sciences.Do you have some idea of ancient "tantrik science" or "black magic" or "spirits".Can you suggest a good astrologer - tantrik with confidence to cure a needy person.

skaza 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 4 of 259 )
Hey Avinash,

Astrology might work, just as instinct and guessing might work (sometimes). But, it definitely is not a science. Science is not about results, it's about procedure. There have been many wrong or incomplete theories in science. It's not the efficacy of theories that qualifies them as science, but the procedure followed in deriving them. A scientific theory must have a set of assumptions (or axioms or postulates), typically based on observations. Then there needs to be rules of procedure to deduce further conclusions from the stated axioms. Astrology, of whichever variety, has neither.

Furthermore, the predictive power of astrology has never been established by a double blind experiment, the standard test of new theories or claims. Quite a few of the experiments have, in fact, failed.

And, when you say "confidence", it would be wise to qualify the sense in which you're using it. Do you use it in the statistical (quatitative) sense of a "confidence interval" or otherwise? A qualitative sense of "confidence" has absolutely no scientific meaning, for it cannot be verified independently.

So, while astrology might work, more often than not it is the gambler's principle which operates in these situations. The slot machine doesnot need to pay off frequently to make a gambler come back, it only needs to pay off occasionally. People convieniently tend to forget the times it's not paid off and remember only the times it has. Further, there might simply be another reason, people just might believe in a prediction so much as to make it a self-fulfilling prophecy. Either way, it doesnot qualify as science. And that is the only beef we (read liberals) have with Murli Manohar Joshi's proposal.

Tathagat 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 5 of 259 )
appa DeepO bhava
Astrology Fact Sheet
Astrology is almost certainly the oldest and most widespread of all pseudosciences. Its origins can be traced back to the first half of the Hammurabi dynasty in Babylonia about 3,500 years ago.

Astrology is best understood by learning how it began. Like most urban, agricultural peoples, the Babylonians had a pantheon of many gods. They also had a well- developed science of observational astronomy, which served the highly utilitarian purpose of providing a calendar, times to plant and to harvest, times of religious festivals, etc. In this observational scheme each planet was important, and the priests whose task it was to make the observations named the planets for the gods in their pantheon -- Marduk, Isthar, Nergal, etc. By about 1000 B.C. there was an extensive Babylonian literature of "planetary omens." Since Nergal (Mars) was the god of war, a summer in which Nergal shone down brightly from the sky was a good time to wage war (or a time in which risk of war was great). Since Ishtar (Venus) was the goddess of love, a spring night in which Ishtar shone high in the West after sunset was a good time to make love.

Your Astrology Defense Kit by Andrew Fraknoi

The details of its precise origins are lost in antiquity, but astrology is at least thousands of years old and appears in different forms in many cultures. It arose at a time when humankind's view of the world was dominated by magic and superstition, when the need to grasp the patterns of nature was often of life-and-death importance.

Celestial objects seemed in those days to be either gods, important spirits, or, at the very least, symbols or representatives of divine personages who spent their time tinkering with humans' daily lives. People eagerly searched for heavenly signs of what the gods would do next.

Prem 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 6 of 259 )
Prem Naam Hai Mera, Not Chopra.
by Professor Richard Dawkins

Astrology is neither harmless nor fun, and we should see it as an enemy of truth, says Richard Dawkins, author of 'The Selfish Gene'. Why, he asks, do so many of us indulge in these pre-Copernican dabblings which are nothing short of wicked fraud?

We should take astrology seriously. No, I don't mean we should believe in it. I am talking about fighting it seriously instead of humouring it as a piece of harmless fun. Frivolous tolerance, probably the dominant stance towards astrology among educated people who don't actually believe in it, ran right through a recent article in the Independent on Sunday by Justine Picardie, "Spinning after Patric's Star". As the headline writer put it, "Astrology has never been so popular, or such big business. But when the late, great (sic) Patric Walker (Libra) died, it wasn't just his billion readers - or his income - that attracted his aspirant successors; it was his reputation as the Henry James of horoscope writers, as the man who'd made the trade respectable."

Hardly respectable, but surely something must be going on when even the Independent on Sunday can devote two pages plus a double picture spread to the question of who would inherit the mantle of a dead charlatan. Picardie's attitude to these well-heeled quacks ranges from affection (the Queen Mother's favourite astrologer is "roly poly") to something perilously near respect (Patric Walker is described without irony as "eminent") Respect might indeed be prompted by the wealth of these glitzy con-artists, which is lovingly dwelt upon (Chauffeurs whisk them in white stretch limos to fashionable restaurants where head waiters fawn over them).

The popular scientist David Belamy, who ought to know better and probably does, contributed to Patric Walker's astrology page in Radio Times, writing that he has the "Capricorn caution" over certain things, but mostly he puts his head down and charges like a real goat. Such shallow light-heartedness sets a mood in which questioning astrology's validity is made to seem pedantic Gradgrindery. To ask whether the astrologers themselves believe in it also comes over as a bit long-faced, on the killjoy side. On Picardie's evidence, some are foolish enough to believe anything (One of them met Patric Walker "just before Mercury went retrograde" and immediately recognised him "from a past life"). The roly-poly one sounds a bit more fly and may understand exactly what he's doing, but it is hard to penetrate his high-camp posturing. Mystic Meg by all accounts could be the best of the bunch, an old fashioned crystal-ball toter, showing up the pretensions of the others, which is presumably why they try to disown her.

Prem 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 7 of 259 )
Prem Naam Hai Mera, Not Chopra.
The serious newspapers seem to be embarking on a self-conscious flirtation with astrology. Until recently they had nothing to do with such tabloid stuff. Then the Sunday Times succumbed and introduced its own astrology column, presumably with the excuse that it was just a bit of a giggle. The others haven't yet stooped so low, but some are acknowledging the pressure in more subtle ways. For the article by Justine Picardie the ostensible excuse was a story about financial success and succession. The same writer, incidentally, has followed it with an article on angels, again humorously open-minded ("There's this thing called going down in spirit"), teetering on the brink of outright respect for the lucrative profession of "angelologist" - one of them is an "eminent". Sorbonne professor of "philosophy" (which turns out to mean the usual "cultural studies" metatwaddle). There's this thing called being so open-minded your brains drop out.

This year-end the Guardian commissioned various individuals to look ahead to the future. Tucked away among some real scientists, historians and philosophers is none other than our roly-poly friend, the "First astrologer to play Nostradamus on TV". Here are his expert views: "On 12 January, Uranus moves into Aquarius and it's the dawning of a new age. It will be altruistic, humanitarian, brotherhood of man. I'm really looking forward to this. The energy (he obviously doesn't understand what this technical term means) will last until November 2008 because Uranus will be eight years in Aquarius and Pluto 13 years in Sagittarius. Thank God I'm Aquarius". And lots more in the same vein, which the Guardian considered fit to print. The Princess of Wales, herself an enthusiast for astrology as one might expect, has "got her Moon in Aquarius" and so has Tony Blair. "Could he do for the country what Di has done for the monarchy?" I have a better question. Why does a decent newspaper hand out free publicity to this phoney? Just a giggle, again? Or is the Guardian bending over backwards not to be elitist?

On a moonless night when the only clouds to be seen are the Magellanic Clouds of the Milky Way, go out to a place far from street light pollution, lie on the grass and gaze out at the stars.1 What are you seeing? Superficially you notice constellations, but a constellation is of no more significance than a patch of curiously shaped damp on the bathroom ceiling. Note, accordingly, how little it means to say something like "Uranus moves into Aquarius". Aquarius is a miscellaneous set of stars all at different distances from us, which have no connection with each other except that they constitute a (meaningless) pattern when seen from a certain (not particularly special) place in the galaxy (here). A constellation is not an entity at all, not the kind of thing that Uranus, or anything else, can sensibly be said to "move into".

The shape of a constellation, moreover, is ephemeral. A million years ago our Homo erectus ancestors gazed out nightly (no light pollution then, unless it came from that species' brilliant innovation, the camp fire) at a set of very different constellations. A million years hence, our descendants will see yet other shapes in the sky, and their astrologer (if our species has not grown up and sent them packing long since) will be fabricating their oracles on the basis of a different zodiac.

Prem 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 8 of 259 )
Prem Naam Hai Mera, Not Chopra.
A far more rapid astronomical shift is the precession of the equinoxes.2 My birthday (26 March) is listed in the papers as Aries but this is the sun sign which somebody with my birthday would have had when Ptolemy codified all that stuff. Because of the precessional shift of approximately one whole zodiacal sign over the AD era, my sun sign is in fact (if you can call it a fact) Pisces. If astrologers were doing something that had any connection with reality, this presumably ought to make a difference. Since they aren't, it doesn't. Scorpio could go retrograde up Uranus and it wouldn't make any difference.

Actually, of course, only planets can "go retrograde", and even then it is an illusion. As they, and we, orbit the sun, planets will on occasion appear to reverse their direction from our point of view. But these occasions have no significance. From a third planet they would be seen to "go retrograde" at different times. Planets do not really "wander", and certainly not remotely near any constellation, which are the distant backdrops of our viewpoint. Even if "going retrograde" or "moving into Aquarius" were real phenomena, some thing that planets actually do, what influence could they possibly have on human events? A planet is so far away that its gravitational pull on a new-born baby would be swamped by the pull of the doctor's paunch.3

No, we can forget planets going retrograde, and we can forget constellations except as a convenient way of finding our way around. What else are we seeing when we gaze up at the night sky? One thing we are seeing is history. When you look at the great galaxy in Andromeda you are seeing it as it was 2.3 million years ago and Australopithecus stalked the African savannah. You are looking back in time. Shift your gaze a few degrees to the nearest bright star in the constellation of Andromeda and you are seeing Mirach, but much more recently, as it was when Wall Street crashed. The sun, when you see it, is only eight minutes ago. But look through a large telescope at the sombrero Galaxy and you are seeing a trillion suns as they were when your tailed ancestors peered shyly through the canopy and India collided with Asia to raise the Himalayas. A collision on a larger scale, between two galaxies in Stephan's Quintet, is shown to us at a time when on Earth dinosaurs were dawning and the trilobites fresh dead.

Name any year in history and there will be a star up there whose light gives you a glimpse of something happening that very year. Whatever the year of your birth, somewhere up in the night sky you could find your birth star (or stars, for the number is proportional to the third power of your age). Its light enables you to look back and see a thermonuclear glow that heralds your birth. A pleasing conceit, but that is all. Your birth star will not deign to tell anything about your personality, your future or your sexual compatibilities. The stars have larger agendas, in which the preoccupation's of human pettiness do not figure.

Prem 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 9 of 259 )
Prem Naam Hai Mera, Not Chopra.
Your birth star, of course, is yours for only this year. Next year you must look to another shell of stars, one light year more distant. Think of this expanding bubble as a radius of good news, the news of you birth, broadcast steadily outwards. In the Einsteinian universe in which most physicists now think we live, nothing can in principle travel faster than light. So, if you are 50 years old, you have a personal news sphere of 50 light years radius. Within that sphere it is in principle possible (obviously not in practice) for news of your existence to have permeated. Outside that sphere you might as well not exist - in an Einsteinian sense you do not exist. Older people have larger existence spheres than younger people, but nobody's existence sphere extends to more than a tiny fraction of the universe. The birth of Jesus may seem an ancient and momentous event to us. But the news of it is actually so recent that, even in the most theoretically ideal circumstances, it could in principle have been proclaimed to less than one 200-million-millionth of the stars in the universe. Many, if not most, of the stars out there will be orbited by planets. The numbers are so vast that probably some of them have life forms, some have evolved intelligence and technology. Yet the distance and times that separate us are so great that thousands of life forms could independently evolve and go extinct without it being possible for any to know of the existence of any other. The real universe has mystery enough to need no help from obscurantist hucksters.

Scientific truth is too beautiful to be sacrificed for the sake of light entertainment or money. Astrology is an aesthetic affront. It cheapens astronomy, like using Beethoven for commercial jingles. By existing law neither Beethoven nor nature can sue, but perhaps existing law could be changed. If the methods of Astrologers were really shown to be valid it would be a fact of signal importance for science. Under such circumstances astrology should be taken seriously indeed. But if - as all indications agree - there is not a smidgen of validity in any of the things that astrologers so profitably do, this, too, should be taken seriously and not indulgently trivialised. We should learn to see the debauching of science for profit as a crime.

Prem 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 10 of 259 )
Prem Naam Hai Mera, Not Chopra.
I must make the usual defence against a charge of scientific arrogance. How do I know that there is no truth in astrology? Well, of course I don't know. I can't prove that there is nothing in horoscopes, any more than I can prove that there is nothing in the (rather more plausible) theory that chewing gum causes mad cow disease. There just isn't any evidence in favour (of either theory), and no reason why we should expect there to be evidence. It isn't as though it would be difficult to find evidence for astrology, if there were any to be had. It wouldn't take anything like that blissful cartoon in which a newsreader announces: "In a major breakthrough for the science of astrology, all people born under Scorpio were yesterday run over by egg lorries."4 A statistical tendency, however slight, for people's personalities to be predictable from their birthdays, over and above the expected difference between winter and summer babies, would be a promising start.

For us to take a hypothesis seriously, it should ideally be supported by at least a little bit of evidence. If this is too much to ask, there should be some suggestion of a reason why it might be worth bothering to look for evidence. Graphology, as a means of reading personalities, is not supported by evidence either, but here the possibility that it might work is not hopelessly implausible a priori. The brain is the seat of the personality and the brain controls handwriting, so it is not in principle unlikely that style of handwriting might betray personality. It seems almost a pity that no good evidence has been forthcoming. But astrology has nothing going for it at all, neither evidence nor any inkling of a rationale which might prompt us to look for evidence. Astrology not only demeans astronomy, shrivelling and cheapening the universe with its pre Copernican dabblings. It is also an insult to the science of psychology and the richness of human personality. I am talking about the facile and potentially damaging way in which astrologers divide humans into 12 categories. Scorpios are cheerful, outgoing types, Leos with their methodical personalities go well with Libra's (or whatever it is). My wife, Lalla Ward, recalls an occasion when a more than usually brainless hanger-on approached the director of the film they were working on with a "Gee, Mr Preminger, what sign are you?" and received the immortal rebuff, "I am a do-not-disturb sign." We love an opportunity to pigeonhole each other but we should resist the temptation. Are you an introvert or an extrovert? Does your body shape betray an endomorphic, a mesomorphic or an ectomorphic personality? "The ectomorph is much more of an introvert and more shrewd and calculating".

Prem 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 11 of 259 )
Prem Naam Hai Mera, Not Chopra.
Personality is a real phenomenon and psychologists (real, scientific psychologists, not Freudians or Jungians) have had some success in developing mathematical models to handle many dimensions of personality variation. The initially large number of dimensions can be mathematically collapsed into fewer dimensions with measurable, and for some purposes conscionable, loss in predictive power. These fewer derived dimensions sometimes correspond to the dimensions that we intuitively think we recognise - aggressiveness, obstinacy, affectionateness and so on. Summarising an individual's personality as a point in multidimensional space is a serviceable approximation whose limitations can be measured and are known. It is a far cry from any mutually exclusive categorisation, certainly far from the preposterous fiction of astrology's 12 dumpbins. It is based upon genuinely relevant data about people themselves, not their birthdays. The psychologist's multidimensional scaling can be useful in deciding whether a person is suited to a particular career, or a couple to each other. The astrologer's 12 pigeonholes are, if nothing worse, a costly and irrelevant distraction. Lonely hearts advertisers frequently insert astrological references alongside relevant information such as musical tastes or sporting interests, and may even insist that the partner they are looking for must be, for instance, Taurus. Think of what this means. The whole point of advertising in such columns is to increase the catchment area for meeting sexual partners (and indeed the circle provided by the workplace and by friends of friends is meagre and needs enriching). It is nothing short of ludicrous then to go out of your way to divide the available number of potential partners by twelve. Lonely people, whose life might be transformed by a longed for compatible friendship, are deliberately encouraged, by their reading of astrological quacks in the newspapers, wantonly and pointlessly to throw away 11/12ths of the available population. This is not just silly, it is damaging, and the quacks concerned deserve our censure as strongly as their deluded victims deserve our pity.

There are some stupid people out there, and they should be pitied not exploited. On a famous occasion a few years ago a newspaper hack, who had drawn the short straw and been told to make up the day's astrological advice, relieved his boredom by writing under one star sign the following portentous lines: "All the sorrows of yesteryear are as nothing compared to what will befall you today." He was fired after the switchboard was jammed with panic-stricken readers, pathetic testimony to the simple trust people can place in astrology.

Prem 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 12 of 259 )
Prem Naam Hai Mera, Not Chopra.
The American conjuror James Randi recounts in his book Flim Flam how as a young man he briefly got the astrology job on a Montreal newspaper, making up the horoscopes under the name Zo-ran. His method was to cut out the forecasts from old astrology magazines, shuffle them in a hat, distribute them at random among the 12 zodiacal signs and print the results. This was very successful of course (because all astrology works on the "Barnum principle" of saying things so vague and general that all readers think it applies to them.) He describes how he overheard in a cafe a pair of office workers eagerly scanning Zo-ran's column in the paper. "They squealed with delight on seeing their future so well laid out, and in response to my query said that Zo-ran had been 'right smack on' last week. I did not identify myself as Zo-ran... Reaction in the mail to the column had been quite interesting, too, and sufficient for me to decide that many people will accept and rationalise almost any pronouncement made by someone they believe to be an authority with mystic powers. At this point, Zo-ran hung up his scissors, put away the paste pot, and went out of business.""

My case is that Randi was morally right to hang up his scissors, that serious newspapers should never give named astrologers the oxygen of publicity, that astrology is neither harmless nor fun, and that we should fight it seriously as an enemy of truth. We have a Trade Descriptions Act which protects us from manufacturers making false claims for their products. The law has not so far been invoked in defence of simple, scientific truth. Why not? Astrologers provide as good a test case as could be desired. They make claims to forecast the future, and they take payment for this, as well as for professional advice to individuals on important decisions. A pharmaceuticals manufacturer who marketed a birth-control pill that had not the slightest demonstrable effect upon fertility would be prosecuted under the Trade Descriptions Act, and sued by trusting customers who found themselves pregnant. If astrologers cannot be sued by individuals misadvised, say, into taking disastrous business decisions, why at least are they not prosecuted for false representation under the Trade Descriptions Act and driven out of business? Why, actually, are professional astrologers not jailed for fraud?

Tathagat 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 13 of 259 )
appa DeepO bhava
HEAR RANDI SPEAKING ABOUT THE PARANORMAL TRENCHES

...tathagat was reading this James "The Amazing" Randi... while u posted it... n tathagat was born 27th March... love reading palms of beautiful babes... counting stars n sparkles in their eyes... talk about astrology a lot (u can't reason with most devies)... when they ask do i believe in Astrolgy... I say no and tell them a tale... how an Astrologer saw Buddha's footprint... pugmark... said him... this is a pugmark of a chakravarti samraaT... went to Buddha and told him so... Buddha said... bhagya pashuu ka hota hey... :). me favorite Randi quote...

"To make sure that my blasphemy is thoroughly expressed, I hereby state my opinion that the notion of a god is a basic superstition, that there is no evidence for the existence of any god(s), that devils, demons, angels and saints are myths, that there is no life after death, heaven nor hell, that the Pope is a dangerous, bigoted, medieval dinosaur, and that the Holy Ghost is a comic-book character worthy of laughter and derision." -- James Randi, "Challenge"

RANDI AT CALTECH: A REPORT FROM THE PARANORMAL TRENCHES

RANDI COMMENTARY ARCHIVE

thetruth 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 14 of 259 )
if u believe quran is divine , then u will belive astrology is science too .

Tathagat 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 15 of 259 )
appa DeepO bhava
...aaNhaaN... Rajdeep hasn't got it... his TRP would be less than a fourth of WTP... (he smells of Balls Thakrey... at times address him Baalaa Saaheb) his guests are rustic... reflects on his mentality... before these baboons discover the infamous Einstein quote... (next2this post) wrongly attributed to him...in support of their argument... tathagat pre-empting such eventuality

The classes in Jyotir Vigyan — astrological science, in Sanskrit — will begin this year. India's leading scientists have condemned the decree, arguing that the country's scientific credibility will be eroded. Professor Pushpa Bhargava, a leading Indian biologist, told Nature magazine that there is no justification for spending huge amounts of scarce research and education money on the psuedo science called Vedic astrology. But it appears that no one in authority is heeding these rational objections. Science Minister Joshi's decision is supported by the Indian University Grants Commission, which says that astrology qualifies as a science "because it needs probing investigation and research." No it doesn't. It's claptrap, always has been claptrap, and has been shown to be claptrap. Or will India now announce that Claptrap itself should be considered a science — because it "needs probing investigation and research"? Can you become a CD — a Doctor of Claptrap — at Indian universities, now?

Astrology in India — as all over the world — has been spectacularly wrong, though of course no amount of failure will ever damage a thoroughly entrenched mythology, as we've seen so often throughout history. I recall that after long contemplation of their ancient art, the astrologers of India agreed that on February 3rd, 1962, at exactly 5:35 p.m., life on Earth would end. Though there was no noticeable abandonment of personal property on the part of the soothsayers themselves, businesses nationwide were closed, sacrificial fires lit up the night across the continent, and panic set in among the general populace. The next day — surprise, surprise — the sun rose on a world that still maintained its belief in astrology, and minor mumblings about alibis, rationalizations, and excuses, were soon heard no more.

Hey, are we doing much better? Real PhDs here in the USA have declared the reality of ghosts, of alien abductions, of powers of dowsing, and of "free energy" systems. We're catching up on India, rapidly.
~ James Randi

Tathagat 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 16 of 259 )
appa DeepO bhava
Recently, an astrology group has been repeating on the Internet an old canard about Albert Einstein, who they claim wrote:

"Astrology is a science in itself and contains an illuminating body of knowledge. It taught me many things, and I am greatly indebted to it. Geophysical evidence reveals the power of the stars and planets in relation to the terrestrial. In turn, astrology reinforces this power to some extent. This is why astrology is like a life-giving elixir to mankind." Former astrologer Geoffrey Dean, writing to Ivan Kelly, renowned expert and critic of astrology, said:

"Re that Einstein quote. This is a good example of astrologers quoting each other nth hand, but with nobody ever checking the original quote. In a letter in ‘Correlation’ June 1991... I chased it back to a book (in French) by the late Swiss-Canadian astrologer Werner Hirsig, ‘Manuel d'astrologie,’ where the quote appears in French in the preface, but with no source given. From there it was quoted by Solange de Mailly Nesle (1981), from which it was quoted by Tad Mann (1987) and Percy Seymour (1988), and from there ever onwards seemingly without end.... Various people including Solange, Percy and myself have checked Einstein's writings and biographies but have been unable to verify it, so Solange and Percy have deleted it from later editions of their books. His biographies contain nothing to suggest that Einstein had any interest in astrology, and its style differs from that of authentic Einstein sayings." Dean ended by suggesting that the purported quotation should be disregarded until authenticated. Dr. Michael Shermer, head of the Skeptics Society, chimed in with:

According to Alice Calaprice, Senior Editor at Princeton University Press and an editor on the Einstein Papers project for the press for the past 20 years, this astrology quote, like so many others attributed to Einstein by people in order to gain credibility, is totally bogus. In fact, it is in her edited volume THE EXPANDED QUOTABLE EINSTEIN ... under "Attributed to Einstein," along with hundreds of others just like it, such as "If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts" and "preparing a tax return is more complicated than relativity theory." ... Under astrology, Einstein did say: "The reader should note [Kepler's] remarks on astrology. They show that the inner enemy, conquered and rendered innocuous, was not yet completely dead." To amplify the naive opinion of Einstein, expressing his conviction that astrology was not to be taken seriously and was now devalued, I will quote from an 1896 edition of the Encyclopædia Britannica (just donated to the JREF by James Harter) on the subject:

Astrology, the so-called science by which various nations, in various ways, have attempted to assign to the material heavens a moral influence over the earth and its inhabitants.... Even at the present day a few may be found who, from a superstitious reverence for the past, or the spirit of contradiction, pride themselves on their adherence to the belief of stellar influences. It is no longer necessary to protest against an error which is dead and buried ... Au contraire. Every celebration or assumption of the demise of any specific form of superstition or pseudoscience, whether framed by an Einstein or the editors of an encyclopedia, is followed by a groan of dismay when that notion proves itself a Hydra....

I quote these observations of Dean, Kelly, Calaprice, and Shermer here so that the reader may recognize that when properly looked into, such mysteries readily yield to research and reason. ~ James Randi

pedant 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 17 of 259 )
I do not understand why we are so apologetic about our religion.Probably these men and women who berate all matters however remotely they may be linked to Hinduism are not really the true India.They are just a product of westernised schools attainable by our largely pseudo-intellectual so called 'elite'. It was this self-effacing attitude that prevented the credit that naturally should have accrued to Indians for developing Africa.It was also because of this that our contributions in the wars was ignored.So also have sprouted up oppurtunists who now claim to have invented Chess and the Zero.They even lay claim to Basmati and Haldi. And all along this English Speaking elite castigates Mother India. Sons and Daughters of collaborators, blackmarketeers and at best abject cowards they know not the beauty and strength of their Mother

Prem 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 18 of 259 )
Prem Naam Hai Mera, Not Chopra.
Wow, Pedant, you make my eyes moist with your rhetoric, you miserable excuse of a patriot!

So far I had only heard that patriotism is the last resort of a scoundrel, but now I wonder. What does any of this have to do with acknowledging that astrology is nothing but a sham and a scam and indulged in by all sorts of charlatans and money making frauds...

rahulk 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 19 of 259 )
Prem.. Now that u have chosen to call another person names, I am taking up a right to call u one: Your are just one of the idiots who have prostitited your identity in search of an elusive label like "liberal". and you are probably in one of the last refuges of anti-nationals like you, who have no idea about a nationhood and patriotism. I am no fan of astrology. But what pisses me off is the very fact that anythign related with our past is ridiculed by the so-called liberals and secularists... YOu know that the temple of Somnath was looted and razed to ground by one of the most ruthless barbarians.... and it is history. Now our secularists and liberals want us to believe that Mohammed Gazni (or whatever that demon's name was) was indeed a saviour for India,in that he suppresed savage customs....

And read with that BBC's reporting on anythign in India.. Be it the Nuclear tests or the floods... After the first line, invariably follows the second: "India is one of the poorest and most backward countries in the world..."

It is this mindset shared by out pseudo secularists and pseudo-liberlas that is really leading India to doom. If these people dont correct themselves, the country should better be rid of them. A country cannot be held ransom to the whims of a few anti-nationals.

Prem 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 20 of 259 )
Prem Naam Hai Mera, Not Chopra.
RahulK,

What can I say to you, you miserable twit who concludes that those who oppose astrology as a Univ course are groupies in the Ghazni fanclub?

Why don't you read some history, bub, before you come and pontificate here?

Tathagat 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 21 of 259 )
appa DeepO bhava
The Story Of Mulla Nasrudin And Assumptions... A certain man asked the famous Mulla Nasrudin, "What is the meaning of fate, Mulla?"

Mulla replied, "Assumptions."

"In what way?" the man asked again.

Mulla looked at him and said, "You assume things are going to go well, and they don't - that you call bad luck. You assume things are going to go badly and they don't - that you call good luck. You assume that certain things are going to happen or not happen - and you so lack intuition that you don't know what is going to happen. You assume that the future is unknown. When you are caught out - you call that Fate."

Mulla Nasruddin#1, loadz of features... check what's new page

Mulla de gr8 #2

From the book - Mulla #3 "The Sufis" by Idries Shah

chinna 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 22 of 259 )
why should introduction of astrology in Indian universities should create such brouhaha? First of all astrology is not a mandatory subject but an optional one. Secondly,many of our scientist and others are making unnecessary coments without weighing the facts and figures. All those who are opposing the introduction will please answer me IS FORECASTING A SCIENCE OR SHAM? Friends,just like the wheather forecasting the astrology also first gather the information of the cosmos and evaluate its merits and demerits on the particular being.If the data collected is accurate the prediction turns out to be a correct one and if not then the information collected has a standard deviation i.e. it depends on the coefficient of variation . Many people who condemn the introdution of the astrology is because they might had a bitter experience ,they might had met a wrong JYOTISHJI ,who in order to make money might had given wrong prediction. IT IS SAID WHERE SCIENCE ENDS SPIRITUALITY BEGINS. Scientist say that 2parts of hydrogen and 1part of oxygen produces water,which is perfectly right .But can these same scientists please explain who created or from where hydrogen and oxygen came. One cannot say simply that astrology is sham.Astrology has been the very life breath of Indians since time immemorial and it has not just endured but prevailed despite gaint leaps forward in scientific technology.

vishag 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 23 of 259 )
1) Astrology is a SUBJECT. If somebody calls it a science ; people (?) get irritated.

2) There should be no irritation if an optional subject is started in a university.Those who are interested will study it. What is harm in it ?

3) Rationalists will be perhaps happy if `rational thinking` is started as a science . 4) Those who are interested will learn about any subject started in any university. 5) who are not interested need not be irritated about it. 6) Astrologers are not irritated by opinions of those who do not have interest in the subject.

Anybody (Rational OR should I say fighters against blind faith) should first study the subject and then only

a) Have opinions about it. b) Pass judgements about it being a science or not. c) Oppose OR support it being started as an optional subject.

ksramesh 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 24 of 259 )
Those who oppose astrology, have not experienced it.

Those who have experienced will not get into a debate on the matter with those who have not

ballur 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 25 of 259 )
I would like to post a poem. BURNING KASHMIR The state of kashmir is burning, Inspite of many a warning. The leaders have done nothing but have signed many an agrrements and dined. The rivers of blood still flow in the valleys, while the respective heads are busy with parleys. Hope is the only light left in the paradise, let the phantom leaders give them love not malice.

Manish 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 26 of 259 )
==== C H A L L A N G E ====

If Somebody Says Astrology is Not Scientific,...either he does not 'know' Astrology or he does not know what is 'Scientific'....I can prove it right here...but only with whom who has patience, Scientific inquiring attitude and understanding of Natural laws.

I have Studied Astrology, Mathematics, Astronomy and Computer Programming more than 15 years.

I can Predict Certain Life events with period/ Date of Perticular event EVERY time with from anybody's Horoscope ( Horoscope does not mean to be Horror_Scope :) )

I can quote first what type of events I can predict and which I can't.

say for an instance if somebody can give me a love married couples birth dates I can predict in Most of them ( actually i can predict 100% but for safty reason I say 85% ) When and who PROPOSED the other partner.

===Every time===. and I can give you formula if my theory becomes true for you to check by your self, that shows that I do not posses some 'Intution' but it is purely mathematical and Scientific.

What I can prove from this theory that I can predict from this formula in SOme of the Human Species that WHEN THEY AROUSED IN SUDDEN EMOTIONAL NEED OF OPPOSITE SEX OR TRUE LOVE OR LUST. I do have so many thing EXACT.

But please dont tell astrology is fake. atleast without knowledge of subject.

kan_k_v 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 27 of 259 )
when moon can lift water of huge volume(oceans)and produce an effect,dont u think our body is composed of more than 90% of water... any person who says he doesnt believe in astrolgy or not a science clearly shows that he doesnt know anything about astrolgy or science.

rkshukla 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 28 of 259 )
astrology is not a science it is widely based on assumptions and superstitions. it is intutional therefore it can not be called science. it is like a sky flower which does not exist. those who search this flower is a fool therefore all astrolgers are fools. murli manohar joshi is a literate fool who is propagating for astrology.

ssnkumar 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 29 of 259 )
We should welcome our government to do this. In the developed countries like Great Britain also has a university bench for studying astrology. And those who are apposing it are, those who oppose whatever it is Hindu! They are hell bent on saying that whatever hindu is un-scientific, by closing their eyes. They are burried deep in the slavery of british and repeating whatever their masters have taught them. We, don't have to worry about them. They are on a losing ground. The people have realized all this.

-Narendra

joy 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 30 of 259 )
Abhi to saare nakshatron ka naamkaran nahin hua hai. Jab Singhal , Vajpayee, Advani, Shourie, Joshi, YashwantSinha, Togadia, Giriraj namak nakshatra banenge, tab jaakar astrology will truly become an exact science.

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 31 of 259 )
Astrology is not science...anyone who know what science is all about will know that. Murli Mahohar Joshi needs a swift kick in his balls for recommending such horse manure to be part of the curriculum.

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 32 of 259 )
Manish,

Cut the crap. If you are so good, I suggest you accept James Randi's one million dollar challenge. All you have to do is to pass certain scientific tests/experiments to PROVE that you can predict the future, and the money is yours...all 1 million dollars.

http://www.randi.org/research/

mumbai02 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 33 of 259 )
I agree completely with Karapall. The question is what astrology claims it can predict. If you toss a coin, you can always predict the outcome with 50% certainity. And 5 out of 10 times you would have predicted 'the future'. Smae holds for elections (a favorite of big-shot astrologers who are busy predicting who is going to win and lose)

I believe astrology is very much like that. If you read the horoscope section in any newspaper you can figure that out. Most of it is written in such a way that you think it applies to you no matter what. Also, when some astrological 'predictions' turn out to be true once in a while people remember those instances and not all the times they didnt predict anything or the predictions were wrong.

Somebody said above that the moon moves huge volumes of water in the ocean (which is true) and that the body is 90 % water (which is also true). If things are so simple then why are we not lifted up into the sky when the moon comes overhead ?

joy 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 34 of 259 )
Abhi to saare nakshatron ka naamkaran nahin hua hai. Jab Singhal , Vajpayee, Advani, Shourie, Joshi, YashwantSinha, Togadia, Giriraj namak nakshatra banenge, tab jaakar astrology will truly become an exact science.

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 35 of 259 )
joy,

Your "joke" was not funny twenty posts ago, and it still is not. Try something new jokewise, numbnuts.

joy 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 36 of 259 )
Abhi to saare nakshatron ka naamkaran nahin hua hai. Jab Singhal , Vajpayee, Advani, Shourie, Joshi, YashwantSinha, Togadia, Giriraj namak nakshatra banenge, tab jaakar astrology will truly become an exact science.

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 37 of 259 )
tsk, tsk, such originality, joy. Brings a tear to one's eye. Please repost your joke a few more times. It might turn funny the 100th time around.

joy 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 38 of 259 )
Kara Bhai, aap ke liye mein kucchh bhi kar sakta hoon. So here goes.....

Abhi to saare nakshatron ka naamkaran nahin hua hai. Jab Singhal , Vajpayee, Advani, Shourie, Joshi, YashwantSinha, Togadia, Giriraj namak nakshatra banenge, tab jaakar astrology will truly become an exact science.

umashiv 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 39 of 259 )
The next generation will be astrologically educated. A bachelor's degree in astrology should be made mandatory for the future politicians so that they can predict earthquakes, communal riots, floods, droughts and such other 'natural calamities' and take preventive steps to minimise loss of lives and property. The on going riots in Gujarat will not be the last (if it ever gives way to peace now), so the mandirs, masjids and churches should also have some astrologically qualified preists to take care of things.

_cyanide 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 40 of 259 )
Astrology will help if we can look at the stars to determine when the next "religion war" will begin.. And maybe then, we all can run somewhere else for shelter

gandalf 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 41 of 259 )
Astrology is supposed to help us see the future. Why would we want to see the future?.. To make better decisions. The ability to make better decisions means better lives for all. Now, if astrology was in anyway plausible then India (the home of astrology, wrlds greates civilisation etc..etc..) would have not been the land of violence, squalor, hatred it is today. We would not be so completely dependent on western science as it is today. We dont have enough teachers for normal useful subjects but we have money for astrology. Pathetic. Let astrology prove itself.. belivers in the stars.. do some good based on astrology and everyone will flock to you. But no.. as facists everywhere , you have to slam it down peoples throats...

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 42 of 259 )
Morons who think that astrology has not yet been debunked via double-blinded tests should go read some of Martin Gardner's reports for citations/references to such scientific articles.

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 43 of 259 )
_cyanide:

"Astrology will help if we can look at the stars to determine when the next "religion war" will begin."

If you read the news, you would know that the saudis are planning for the second episode of the crusades. Just wait for their saudi madrassas to produce good, diligent students of the Quran by the hundreds of thousands per year all over the world; it is just a matter of a decade or two, if we go by the history of such schools in pakistan.

ulmo3 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 44 of 259 )
Now lets forget about whether Astrology is true or false. Whether its a science or not. The point I am trying to put is that even if its not science and just quackery, there are lot of people who believe in it and it gives them solace to some entertainment to others. I would say another example is religion, we have religious studies so why not astrology. It does serve as employment to people so why not get them certified. It doesnt have to be a science to be taught. We teach arts , crafts , drama. May this is another social skill. My point is (and I dont think I am putting properly) that it provides employment because there are enough people who believe in it, just like religion provides employment to priests because there are people who believe in it. Therefore I am all for making astrology as University Degree. And people who say that its superstitious nonsense well some people say the same about religion. Astrology has been part of culture our history and I dont think it should be neglected just any part of our culture or heritage should be neglected

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 45 of 259 )
ulmo3:

Astrology is harmful when it is considered more than entertainment. Astrology is downright quackery and used by con men to fool the gullible and the skeptically-challenged.

There are far better ways to provide employment than astrology. However, if it generates employment and keeps the economy going, then the government should let it survive, albeil under STRICT vigilance.

GAYATHRI 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 46 of 259 )
www.cry.org/you/youcando.htm

anwarsad 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 47 of 259 )
Astrology as science? Wow. Is it true?

If enough people want it then why not teach it but instead of science teach it as a mythology and/or art subject instead because obviosuly it is not a "science"?

I echo Karpall's sentiments on this issue. Sure religion is taught in unversities but it is taught not as a science but instead as theology and usually it is a separate department. Perhaps astrology belongs in that category.

And why should anybody be surprised that a fool like Mr. Joshi all ecstatic about it when even more learned people like T N Seshan are easily taken in by all the mumbo-jumbo.

Shantanu 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 48 of 259 )
If people would like to believe in weather forecasting and associated blah blah, same should be applied to astrology

sanjayin 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 49 of 259 )
it is all bullshit. only a game of the Brahmins. They must know that people in advanced countries never follow such utterly stupid practices. President George Bush wears no rings; he is a Christian. The Hindus must stop following like Muslim fanatics. They must imitate rationale Christians.only then we can transform our nation from developing to developed.

mumbai02 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 50 of 259 )
sanjayin, (#49)

You mean the rational Christians who believe that Jesus was the Son of God ? Or the rational ones that believe 'virgin' Mary gave birth to Jesus Christ ? Or the rational Christians in America who still oppose birth control based on the Bible ?

All religions involve 'faith'. You cannot be a 'true Christian' and 'rational' at the same time.

sanjayin 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 51 of 259 )
mr moumbai02, talk more about religious practices. no one has seen god. so concentrate more on where it pushes you. hinduism has utterly failed in its mission to give a civilized society. jesus christ is better taking care of his children.

mumbai02 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 52 of 259 )
reply to #51

I'm not sure that Hinduism had as one of its aims the formation of a 'civlized society'. But in any case I dont agree with you that Hinduism utterly failed.

And about Jesus Christ better taking care of his children the present affluence of the west has to do with science, technology, industrial revolution and capitalism. It has nothing to do with religion. Actually the Church insisted that the Earth is the center of the universe and imprisoned Galileo, even after there was siginificant evidence that Copernicus' helio-centric theory of solar system was the right theory. Same holds for Darwin and the theory of evolution. So, if anything the advance of the west is due to their rejecting the strict dogmas of Christianity.

And about 'civilized society' dont forget that slavery of blacks and the mass-murder of Jews were carried out and condoned by Jesus Christ's children. Apparently Jesus forgot to tell his children that these were wrong, or they didn't care too much about their father said.

sanjayin 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 53 of 259 )
reply to #53 most of social,religious and territorial issues have been settled in the West long back. We are still fighing over mandal, babri masjid and kashmir. don't you think they are deterrant for any progress. a Brahminical party like BJP in place of solving the issues or nullifying them, they actually want to make big gains out of them. Astrology is brain-child of one such idiots Pundit MM Joshi, Minister of HRD. No society can move forward with such people at the helm of affairs.

gandalf 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 54 of 259 )
Mumbai01 Post 52

There is a difference between the Church (Roman Catholic sect during Galilio's time) and Christianity. you are right the church opposed galelio but the point is Christianity is actually based on a few chapters in the New Testament. Jesus (to my knowledge) never even said the Bible was to be the word of God. His teachings are simple and straingformward. Thus what ever the church does, Individuals own Christianity. Thus like in democracy, there is always a system of checks and balences. I was astounded that the basic rules of genetics was discovered by a Monk. So I firmly belive that the openness of basic Christianity can result in societal advantages. It is not a magic bullet though

gandalf 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 55 of 259 )
Cont.. Regarding your points on slavery and Nazism: slavery.. yes Christian traders were in the forefront but dont forget that the people who have been looting Africans have been Muslim Arabs. I lived in Africa for many years and even today, villages tell stories of Arab marauders. Islam says that non-believers are not equal to Muslims so it was justified. At the same time Hindhuism was running its own form of slavery (casteism) which was more cruel that normal slavery. On the other hand the people in UK and US who started the movement against slavery were staunch relegious christians. Harriet Becher Stowe(Uncle Toms Cabin)etc, worked against slavery because strong religious drives. These movements started happening in India only after exposure to the west and sadly has not started in the Muslim world. Nazis.. well the Reich was not remotely religious. and remember they were opposed by Christians too so what is the point?

gandalf 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 56 of 259 )
In India, in my view, we have a blind hatred and fear of Christianity. I belive we would go a long way if we can examin Chistianity and Buddhism (I have not compared Buddhism). This does not compromise our nationalism and honour. The present form of nationalism is isidously linked to Bhraminism, conscept of the Land India as be all and end all and the focus is not onthe welface of people but on the hierarchy of a few section of society

gandalf 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 57 of 259 )
Sanjayin: " No society can move forward with such people at the helm of affairs.

correct.. though our society in reality can move forward in spite of them.

mumbai02 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 58 of 259 )
sanjayin post #53,

I think that teaching astrology as a science is a stupid idea. I made that clear in a post on this board a couple of months back.

I dont want to turn this into a debate about about which is the better religion - Hinduism or Christianity or Islam or whatever. You are the one who started in this direction with your comment about irrational Hindus and rational Christians.

BTW, astrology is not the brain child of MM Joshi. It is a set of beliefs and systems that has been around for a couple of thousand years. Horoscopes are read and followed not just in India but by many people in the (Christian)west also. But that doesnt make it any more correct. It just shows that Indians and Hindus dont have a monopoly on stupidity.

Having said all this, I dont know what difference Joshi's move is going to make. A large section of Indian population believes in rituals/astrology/horoscopes etc anyway. Even 'educated' people.

Again, I oppose Joshi's move and I dont think a Hinduism vs Christianity debate is going to lead anywhere.

mumbai02 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 59 of 259 )
Gandalf posts 54 to 56,

You are right about the teachings of Jesus. He probably never claimed that he was the 'Son of God' or that Bible was God's word. I have no problem accepting that Jesus was a great man and a good man. But the unfortunate reality of the world is that you dont get far if you try to go around telling people to love their neighbours as they love themselves. That is not a problem with Jesus, that has got to do with human nature. You have a better chance if you tell people they will burn in hell if they dont obey God's word. No wonder most religions have various versions of the above idea. And you need 'miracles' and 'prophets' and 'revelations'. Also there begins the slide to irrationality.

"whatever the church does, individuals own christianity"

Your argument about church and Christianity being separate doesnt make much sense. Do I become a christian if I follow most of Christ's teachings (Even though I'm a Hindu)? Will the christians consider me a chrisitan ? I'm sure the answer is NO. Actually I dont believe in Hindu gods or reincarnation or any of the various Hindu beliefs. But I am a Hindu because I am born a Hindu. And I will remain so until I formally convert to Islam or Christianity. And that will happen not if I follow Jesus's teachings about love and kindness, but when a Chrisitian priest does whatever rites are required (baptism?), and I go to churches on a Sunday and when other Christians think I am a Christian.

What I am trying to say is that you cannot disown the Church. I think they are an essential part of Christianity; God may think I am a Christian if I follow Jesus's teachings, but the society wont and the latter is what matters.

mumbai02 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 60 of 259 )
About slavery, yes blacks were held as slaves by Muslim Arabs and also by Christians/Europeans. Were you trying to say that Christian treatment of blacks was less harsh than what Arabs did ?

OK, Harriet Stowe may have been a staunch opponent of slavery and many other Christians opposed it. But finally the question is, did they oppose it because they were good people or did they oppose it because they were christians ? I'd say it has got to do more with the former. And a good Hindu or a good Muslim would have also opposed such practices.

You said caste system was more cruel than 'normal slavery'. I dont agree with this. Could you elaborate ?

And you mentioned African villagers talking about Arab marauders. What is their view on slavery ? Did they consider the Arabs to be worse than the Europeans ? Which country were you in ? Sudan ?

You are right that many of the reform movements of India started after contacts with the west.

mumbai02 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 61 of 259 )
About the Holocaust, Nazis may not have been religious. But does anyone care if Narendra Modi or Bal Thackeray are religious Hindus ?

I think Pope John Paul II has expressed regret about anti-semitism, Holocaust etc.

Yes, there is no problem in examining Christianity and Buddhism. But what specific ideas of Christianity do you think Hindus should try to borrow?

gandalf 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 62 of 259 )
Thanks Mumbai for your replies:

Regarding the separation of Church and society. Yes and no. I know many staunch protestant Chistians who dont give a damn about the church. I know alot of Christians (catholics.. mangaloreans) who also dont bother about the church. What is it that makes a Christian.. I really can answer that. will find out though.

Africa. Was born in Ghana and lived 17 years there, Nigeria and other west affrican countries. Trust me, western slave ships are just a blimp on their radar.

I think the Christian concience really help in abolition of a lot of these things.

nazi were christians as much as Modi is a Hindu. Right. But the Nazis focus was racial superiority, and not religion unlike Modi.

Regarding specific points. I think Hinduism should learn from idalised Christianity in aspiring to treat every human being as a human

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 63 of 259 )
Santanu:

"If people would like to believe in weather forecasting and associated blah blah, same should be applied to astrology"

There is a very fundamental difference between weather forecasting and astrology. Weather forecasting consists of matching current weather patterns with past weather patterns ON THE SAME PLANET and drawing inferences.

Astrolgy seems to have gotten the calculation of positions of the stars in the sky approximately correct given the level of techniques used. The biggest problem with astrology is: how do you claim that XYZ is going to experience some situation because of his birthdate?? The only way such "forecasting" is done is by pulling arbitrary conclusions out of various bodily orifices of the astrologer.

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 64 of 259 )
Santanu:

"If people would like to believe in weather forecasting and associated blah blah, same should be applied to astrology"

There is a very fundamental difference between weather forecasting and astrology. Weather forecasting consists of matching current weather patterns with past weather patterns ON THE SAME PLANET and drawing inferences.

Astrolgy seems to have gotten the calculation of positions of the stars in the sky approximately correct given the level of techniques used. The biggest problem with astrology is: how do you claim that XYZ is going to experience some situation because of his birthdate?? The only way such "forecasting" is done is by pulling arbitrary conclusions out of various bodily orifices of the astrologer.

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 65 of 259 )
Gandalf:

"In India, in my view, we have a blind hatred and fear of Christianity."

Given your blind hatred and fear of hinduism, I fail to see why you consider this a problem. Ever heard of the christian quote on "Do unto others"??

" I belive we would go a long way if we can examin Chistianity and Buddhism (I have not compared Buddhism). "

Bullshit. Christianity and Islam used to share the same religious text (The Old testament and the Quran have a remarkable number of similarities), and there could not be a religion more further than buddhism than christianity. Buddhism requires you to find god with in yourself. Christianity requires you to ACCEPT jesus as the son of god as a FIRST STEP, and you have to perform the ceremony of drinking christ's blood (symbolically) before you can even claim to be a christian.

So quit lying, you ignorant turd.

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 66 of 259 )
Gandalf:

"I think the Christian concience really help in abolition of a lot of these things."

Since when did "conscience" become a christian concept?

I suppose it is the same "christian conscience" that stops the funding of population planning across the globe and causes the deaths of pregnant women all across the globe by denying them proper birth control/abortion procedures.

Bigoted christian assholes like you should first think a little before you start claiming superiority of christianity over hinduism (you wont admit this, but this is exactly where you are going with your posts).

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 67 of 259 )
Gandalf:

"nazi were christians as much as Modi is a Hindu. Right. But the Nazis focus was racial superiority, and not religion unlike Modi."

Wrong again, asshole. Go buy a copy of "Mein Kampf" by Hitler and find out that he justifies his homicide based on christian teachings, among other things.

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 68 of 259 )
Gandalf:

"I think Hinduism should learn from idalised Christianity in aspiring to treat every human being as a human "

Bullshit. This is just another data point that reinforces the view that you are an anti-hindu christian bigot, especially given your more recent diatribes against hindus and hinduism. Nothing wrong with that, surely. Just dont come around spewing crap about how secular and tolerant you are. that is all.

Christianity's biggest strength is that it offers a support system for people in the form of a social church group that meets and interacts every week. If hindus duplicate this feat (highly unlikely), the christians would suddenly find that their unified anti-hindu propaganda in India suddenly does not work anymore.

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 69 of 259 )
Gandalf:

I suggest you go read King James' version of the bible, which explicitly justifies slavery of non whites based on the bible.

All the PR crap about christianity being the best of all religions is a result of your bible-based brainwashing. While the bible does have some good moral teachings that are woerthy of emulation, your claim that the bible is the pinnacle of human morality and ethics, as you seem to do is quite laughable.

ramnix 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 70 of 259 )
independant thought is essential to common sense!!
Hey all!! Here was a topic that was worthy of disscussion and sadly it ended in a religious clash of insecurity. As far as astrlogy(jyothir vigyan as some of them would put it) should not have been placed in the category of science, as there are no visible scientific studies into it. It could have been put in arts or theological section. Here I would also like to make another point, that is scientists claim themselves to be liberals and say that everyone should cultivate a habit of questioning. Thats excellent, but arent the scientists going against their own preachings arent they being unscientific by giving no room for research into such controvesial subjects. For example Dalton proposed the atomic theory but his theory was later proved wrong with the discovery of radiation. What I am trying to say is that preliminary scientific testing might exclude these subjects as myths and tom-foolery, but constant and systematic research might provide positive results. This is just like the search for extra terrestrial beings, just because we have not seen any ETs does not mean that there might not be another planet capable of sustaing life. Nobody in this discussion has talked about behaviorial patterns which are used to study astrolgy.Human behavior has scientific background.

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 71 of 259 )
ramnix:

" Thats excellent, but arent the scientists going against their own preachings arent they being unscientific by giving no room for research into such controvesial subjects."

It has all been done before; you seem to be unaware of it. There is an excellent book on pseudo-science (which is what astrology is) by the inimitable Martin Gardner.

It will give you a perspective on how pseudoscience refuses to die even when scientists conduct study after study in a double-blinded manner, only to come up with the conclusion that astrology performs no better than arbitrary guessing (also known as random chance), which means that THERE IS NO CORRELATION BETWEEN ASTROLOGICAL TECHNIQUES AND THE RESULTS OF USING THESE TECHNIQUES.

indtruth 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 72 of 259 )
People who follow or read so called astrology on newspaper are right about astrology being nonsense and stupid. These astrology are based on western brains of past. But Vedic astrology is nothing of this mumbo jumbo. You need to pretty much aware of position of planets, moon, place on earth and time before you make some chart. I bet pinkos don't have brain to even comprehend such stuff. They probably must not be knowing about constellation movement in the sky. catch any pundit in village he will give a clear and detailed lecture on astronomy. Same knowledge is used to predict events around you. If pinkos have read "probablity" a math subject in their school times then they must know its all about chances baby. But astrology has more accuracy then above probabilty. You need to read this shastra before making any judgement. I read it myself to proof its authenticity. I did it because of my tech background. I am not sure of brain dead pinkos who take their lead from militant organisations.

indtruth 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 73 of 259 )
There are lots of western colleges where they teach vedic astrology. There are programs shown in TLC(The learning channel in US)proving authenticity of vedic astrology.(contact them) Many Wall Street big wigs use astrologies to time their investments. Be skeptic but don't discard things without testing it. That's very unscientific. These so called westerner didn't even understand the concept of ZEROS or nothingness. That's why years starts with 1 AD instead or zero. that's why we are in 21st century when year running is 2002. :) Anyway, pinkos wont even accept that AD means In the time of Lord Jesus. BC is for Before Christ. Thats not communal but Rajput NCERT books are criminal. Pinkos you all will go to hell where all this miltant religionist go. World domination my foot.

indtruth 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 74 of 259 )
Hinduism a Science or a religion --------------------------------- We (living & non living i.e. matters) have all come from universal soul and will go back to him. As we are created from one source thats why we are part of it and that's why he is omnipresent. Ultimately we will end with Him.

Hindu/Bhuddist views on creation: 1)In the begining there was a golden egg. it bursted and thus ever expanding universe was created. Ultimatly it will collapse after a period of Visnu yuga. 2) some didn't agree, they believed there must be something extra than golden egg from which matter and life originated. This extra something they named Swayambhu (self existing). some call it SHIVA.

SCIENTIFIC VIEW. There was infinitisimal dense single point bursted with a Big bang. matter and anti matter were produced and from it universe got created. Some say it will collapse after billions of years. Vedic knowledge agrees with collapsing of universe but view # 2 doesn't entirely agrees with matter and anti matter theory as views # 2 talks about Swayambhu i.e. Shiva. Matter and anti matter annihilate each other. If big bang produced it then they would have annihilated each other long back. But universe is there. its a reality. Which proves There was something Extra which led to creation of universe despite matter and anti matter anhihilating each other. Pinkos this is too much for your Stupid IQ.

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 75 of 259 )
indtruth,

you are so hopelessly wrong about everything that I dont know where to start correcting you.

And here is a little bit of advice: dont speak about physics unless you can demonstrate that you understand the math behind these theories.

Go back to the original first few verses in the Rig Veda. Modern physics is much closer to the real answer than any other explanation by various religions (which are completely wrong even at a most cursory examination), including hinduism.

All religion had SOME scientific contribution, for sure, but that does not make their explanations better than the ones we have today, by virtue of modern science and peer-reviewed publishing.

gandalf 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 76 of 259 )
I really would like a true Buddhist to comment on all this Buddhism is a subsect of Hinduism crap.

Yes it cam from the same country, but no disrespect to Hinduism ment but the argument is like saying that Diamonds and carbon are the same.

indtruth 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 77 of 259 )
Gandalf, It is difficult to explain things to people when they are so Rammed up. Do you know why scientists are using children in Mars exploration. Reason is our midn has become so much programmed that we skip lots of things that is lying just next to us. It takes someone else to show it to you. Sometime people loose control of their life and they go to pshychiatrist to get help. But solution is with them, he only guides them to those solutions. Anyway, back to Astrology. I bet none of you has any idea about astrology other than what you see in Magazines based on stupid methods. But Vedic astrology is not easy that any guy on the street can understand it and predict future and past. I gave that creation of universe details to show that we have answer but we did not keep improtance to it as very few people in India actually have read it. Remember in science class you read about "Rain cycle" how water turns to vapors and then to cloud and then it rains and then it goes to pond. and blah blah. This simple explanation is their in Rig Veda also. Karapall sure might have read that part atleast. Anyway, Rig Veda is not something people can understand so easily. First problem, Sanskrit. Under commis control, we hardly learn any sanskrit. Then, most of the translated books are written by westerner who have their own agenda. Just like Nazi's used ARYAN word out of veda and mainpulated it represent White Colorless melanin deficient supremacy. But a true son of India who understand its true culture can bring out the true meaning in Veda which has hidden meaning in it. If somebody get fascinated with Jews movies "OMEGA CODE". You will realize how much shit can be sold by making movie on it. Anyway, For vedic astrology, you must know about constellations, its movement. Planets and its rotations and retrogression etc etc. Time and place of birth. What was the position of the planet and constellation. Those who have really tested it will understand that it has more than 75% accuracy. I can refer you to some place (Software) where you can test astrology by comparing your own life prediction but then you guys will say that i may be soliciting. Anyway, i can refer you a book called "Parasara Hora Sastra"

indtruth 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 78 of 259 )
Karapall:

Why don't you give me date and place (in India) of birth of someone you know properly. Let me try to predict things. I am no astrologers but i have tried to learn it on my own. I am not sure how good i am but i will give it a try. But easy and authentic way would be to buy prediction or software from good source.

vikram99 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 79 of 259 )
Indtruth,

"Do you know why scientists are using children in Mars exploration. Reason is our midn has become so much programmed that we skip lots of things that is lying just next to us"

Well said!

People's heads are filled with lies and untruths, that have to be shed to grasp 'the truth'.

The lies, untruths and degraded theories of the christian missionaries, jihadis and the communists for the sake of achieving their depraved imperialistic objectives, have to be wiped out if mankind is to achieve some level of progress and if mankind is to continue with its civilisation that was eroded by these 3 imperialistic industries. These devils have come to a stage where they will disown even Jesus, Mohammad and Karl Marx if these were to physically appear in front of them and tell them to change their ways.

gandalf 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 80 of 259 )
Good post Kappy 75

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 81 of 259 )
Gandalf:

"Yes it cam from the same country, but no disrespect to Hinduism ment but the argument is like saying that Diamonds and carbon are the same."

Oh my god, you are about the most incredible stupid person I have come across in my life. DIAMOND is a polymorph of carbon, as is graphite, ie., both diamond and graphite are made up of carbon but have different structural properties. Cretins like you should at least make sure you understand your own analogies before you proceed to tickle your tonsils with your toenails.

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 82 of 259 )
indtruth:

"Why don't you give me date and place (in India) of birth of someone you know properly. Let me try to predict things. I am no astrologers but i have tried to learn it on my own."

I suggest you visit a famous challenge by a legendary skeptic and rationalist called James Randi. Submit your incredible skills to his double blinded tests, and if you can prove that you are the genuine article, YOU GET A MILLION DOLLARS!!!! (as simple as that) I am not kidding. Go visit www.randi.org and accept the 1 Million $ paranormal challenge, if you are really so confident of your abilities.

gandalf 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 83 of 259 )
Krapps, Oh, I do understand my analogies... maybee you were too dense to understand what I was really saying :-)

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 84 of 259 )
Gandalf:

"Yes it cam from the same country, but no disrespect to Hinduism ment but the argument is like saying that Diamonds and carbon are the same."

Buddha is considered one of the avatars of vishnu. While I am sure that this was just a way for hinduism to accept buddhist values, which is quite commendable, buddhism has gotten corrupt to a similar extent as hinduism. Both of them are fatalistic and of little practical use if you want to dominate the world. Christianity and islam on the other hand are made for domination and subjugation of other cultures.

Did you read baout archbishops in England banning YOGA from the churches, because they contain pagan beliefs. What do you think about thaT?

gandalf 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 85 of 259 )
Buddha is considered one of the avatars of vishnu..

I have made my views on this clear.

Really, regarding the archbishops?.. Idiots. But then do you see the advantages of bringing in new ideas. Christianity in UK has to evolve.. if it doesnt a better religion (maybe Hinduism/Budhism/Islam) will take over. What does it matter as long as the people perceive they benefit. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the West. Unfortunate .. maybe. But stifiling competiion would anyway bastardize incumbent religion so I think its the way to go.

Getting back to yoga, remember Karate was also a path to devotion in China, the thing is they managed to remove all religious trappings from it. Yogo will also do that as I am sure a UK cristian will be hesitant to say OM, as much as a Indian Hindu would be hesitant to say Allh O Akbar.. whatever the context.

gandalf 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 86 of 259 )
Buddha is considered one of the avatars of vishnu..

I have made my views on this clear.

Really, regarding the archbishops?.. Idiots. But then do you see the advantages of bringing in new ideas. Christianity in UK has to evolve.. if it doesnt a better religion (maybe Hinduism/Budhism/Islam) will take over. What does it matter as long as the people perceive they benefit. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the West. Unfortunate .. maybe. But stifiling competiion would anyway bastardize incumbent religion so I think its the way to go.

Getting back to yoga, remember Karate was also a path to devotion in China, the thing is they managed to remove all religious trappings from it. Yoga will also do that as I am sure a UK cristian will be hesitant to say OM, as much as a Indian Hindu would be hesitant to say Allh O Akbar.. whatever the context.

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 87 of 259 )
Gandalf:

"Christianity in UK has to evolve.. if it doesnt a better religion (maybe Hinduism/Budhism/Islam) will take over."

Given the history of England, you are the naivest person I have come across if you sincerely believe this. THERE IS NOT FREE MARKETS when it comes to religion, as is evident in the way countries are chauvinistic about their majority religion (all secular countries, except India, which seems to have a suicidal death wish on its own existence with its bastardized marxist version of "secularism", aka pseudo-secularism or anti-hinduism.

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 88 of 259 )
Gandalf:

"What does it matter as long as the people perceive they benefit."

What are you, a bloody cretin?

The only purpose of religion from the macro standpoint is cohesive crowd control. Muslims and christians understand that perfectly well; only the hindu shitheads, especially the pseudo-secular, nehruvian, hindu shitheads, have a completely opposite, suicidal notion of secularism, where they want to cede more and more political power to minority bigots at the expense of everyone's safety and the long-term well-being of the country.

indtruth 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 89 of 259 )
Yes, Pseudo Secular belief if they can sacrifice then God will give them long life and Heaven. I agree about Heaven for sure as if god forgets then Islamist and christian crusader US with its bombs. Its like sacrifice a lamb to the demon and rest would be safe for that day. India has lots of such legendary stories. That's why perhaps Nehru excluded population control from his Policies. Anyway, christian and other fundamentalist are destroying Indian nation under the guide of god less communist parties.

indtruth 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 90 of 259 )
Karapall: Astrology has nothing to do with paranormal activity or phenomenon. Its all constant. Any person on this earth who has learnt vedic astrology will come to same prediction no matter where he is. It is no para-normal skills or anything. Its just a predictive science which needs knowledge of both mathematics and astronomy. Of course, then you need to have analytical power too. Thats why not everybody can learn it with flying colors.

indtruth 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 91 of 259 )
In western world, Islam and Christian are like two party system. If a christian get fucked by one of his friend or church going wife then he changes his party to Islam. Latest e.g. is Sniper urf Muhamed and his nephew. Cassius Clay conversion to Muhamed Ali, Boxer and Tyson are some of the high profile cases. Most of the disgruntled people find Islam as only other alternative in two party system. Further, Bible is so full of contradiction that most of the people get disillusioned whereas Koran just don't allow any questioning. Bible talks about convering female head. Thats why catholic nuns are covered head to toes. Even circumcision was very much prevelant in Catholic churches. But of course Muslims are made fun by same bigots for the same practices. Further she should have long hairs. if she doesn't then she should be shaved Bald. Bible also talks about chopping a mans hand if he steals. Matches with koran but muslims are made fun of. Abraham was cutting his son's head as a sacrifice to God as per the Bible, Koran and Jew's Torah. But Christian make fun of human sacrifice and blame others for the practice (Mexican, Egypt, Roman etc etc). Christian also talk about Jesus sacrificed his life. Thats also smells of Human sacrifice even if he didn't volunteer for it. Further, it was Judas his hangout partner who helped Roman catch absconding problem creator. Roman or so called westerner would not have dreamed in their wildest dream that one day they would be praying his as their god and savior. Further they never thought they would be slaughtering the same people who gave them religion and god.

sinbad 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 92 of 259 )
Karapallji,

whereas I see your point in #87, Hinduism has already made enormous strides in the West without people even realizing it.

Majority of people in Britain and America now believe in rebirth and possibly universalism. Agnosticism is now growing and it seems to be accepted that it is good conduct that leads to betterment. Trouble is we have not taught essential Vedantic beliefs to ourselves, how can we educate others.

sinbad 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 93 of 259 )
Indian secularism as preached and practised by Chachu Nehru has come to mean that we elevate barbaric philosophies to the level of holy religion and contribute to negating and demeaning our glorious heritage.

Many American school textbooks blithely say that Judaism, Christianity and Islam are three main religions of the world, what about Hinduism and Buddhism. How many Indian parents protest. They want to assimilate at all costs, exactly the opposite of local and Paapiland based Paapis.

vikram99 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 94 of 259 )
sinbad,

Christianity is sliding, and sliding fast in the West. Even in Rome, the birthplace of catholicism, church attendance is recorded (and these guys record every activity of catholics across the globe) to be 3% !!! West people are now less willing to take up priestly posts.

So, the Vatican has to now depend on the relatively uneducated (about their sinister cult that is) mass in third world countries in Asia to make up for the deficit (both followers and the proselytising priestly positions).

People across the globe are more interested in going back to their roots, their pagan practices, since they have now realized that the Church is nothing but a transnational corporation that bases its 'spiritual' success based on head counts, growth projections on head counts, market share, investment per head, cost of conversion activities, relative cost of conversion at diff. places......

sinbad 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 95 of 259 )
PAUL BRUNTON:

THE SALVATION OF THE WEST LIES IN ACCEPTING THE DOCTRINE OF KARMA.

What a true statement.

Sita Maaiki Jai HO.

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 96 of 259 )
sinbad:

"Majority of people in Britain and America now believe in rebirth and possibly universalism. "

That does not make it right, my friend.

sinbad 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 97 of 259 )
Karapallji,

I am now confused. What is not right.

The concepts of Punrjanma and Universalism or the Western way of thinking.

vikram99 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 98 of 259 )
Karapall,

The concept of re-incarnation is more a matter of faith and belief since you cannot prove your previous birth, though there are several cases of people remembering their previous life/lives.

But rejecting it outright as a superstition is as condemnable as accepting it blindly without looking up sources like the Upanishads, Bhagavad Gita etc., for understanding more about it.

One must also remember that the sages who were 'seers' of the Vedas and composers of the Upanishads and Sri Krishna the narrator of Bhagavad Gita were no fools and their thoughts need serious and detailed consideration to get an insight into the truth.

vikram99 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 99 of 259 )
Sinbad,

"Majority of people in Britain and America now believe in rebirth and possibly universalism. "

The truth is that the Church itself had all the eastern religious concepts (duly plagiarized as everything else of course) like rebirth, reincarnation, atma etc., before a surgical operation was done on it to make it look more 'scientific' and 'believer friendly'.

The historian H.G. Rawlinson suggested a borrowing from Buddhism by Christianity of the ideas of miraculous conception and birth, the star over the birthplace, the prophecy of the aged Asita (the Buddhist Simeon), the temptation by Mara, the twelve disciples, and the miracles. He thinks that the rosary, the veneration of relics, and the exaggerated forms of asceticism in Christianity are from Indian sources.

Early Christianity accepted reincarnation. Orthodox Christianity took many centuries to form and as the discovery in 1945 of the gnostic gospels at Nag Hammadi demonstrates, the later Church suppressed many original beliefs of the community.

sinbad 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 100 of 259 )
Vikramji,

There is more food for thought.

Gospel of Matthew(19:4-5) Jesus says: "Have you not read, that which made them at the beginning made them male and female....For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife and they twain shall be one flesh"

And if jesus did not preach celibacy there is no reason to believe that he practised it.According to Judaic custom at that time it was not unusual but almost mandatory that a man be married.

sinbad 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 101 of 259 )
(cont)

If jesus was not married , this fact would have been glaringly conspicuous . IT WOULD HAVE SET HIM APART FROM ALLHIS CONTEMPORARIES.

Celibacy was a an invention of that sick mind Paul. But in a way that was lucky, since the brightest Catholics became priests they did not procreate, at least officially.Otherwise the Vatican would be a far more deadly force.

Satnam 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 102 of 259 )
I personally believe that the concept of trans-migration of souls(Punrjanma) not only makes sense intuitively but is very close to being proven empirically.

Further, how often do we have that feeling, I HAVE BEEN HERE BEFORE.Guru Gobind Singh recalled Hem Kund from Mahabharat times and his Tapasya there.

What is sixth sense?Do our minds travel great distances in sleep? With what eyes do we see in sleep.Meditation done by average people like me illumines the mind a little, what the Rishis, Gurus and Bhagats must have achieved.

What we fail to see often exists, that is reality.

mumbai02 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 103 of 259 )
For indtruth:

In an earlier post you asked Karapall to give you the place and date of his birth. I'll accept that challenge; let me see if you can predict anything meaningful about my past, present or future.

Sex: M

Date of Birth: May 11, 1977

Place of birth: Trichur, Kerala, India

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 104 of 259 )
sinbad:

"The concepts of Punrjanma and Universalism or the Western way of thinking."

There is no "western" way of thinking. There are as many bogus philosphies and rationalizations in the west as there are in India. Believing in the afterlife jsut seems to be a convenient way to shirk responsibility and pro-active behavior in this life. This is a major bane of the worthless, fatalistic, Indian philosophy crap that is now engrained into most hindus, as can be seen by the stupid, self-defeating behavior of the assholes who are supposed to be "true" hindus according to pseudo-secular shitheads. The only reason they want this self-defeating, self-loathing bunch to represent hindus is because it makes it easier to destroy hinduism from the inside with the help of other pseudo-secular shithead hindus. It is these pseudo-secular shithead hindus that will destroy hinduism. The muslims and pseudo-secular shitheads and marxist assholes will just use these people to further their own brainless, worthless agenda.

All in all, if you have the ability and the brains to leave India, do so. You will probably leave a more fulfilling life than living in this septic tank of a country infested with cockroaches like Vinod Mehta.

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 105 of 259 )
thank you, mumbai02. I was not about to divulge my personal information on the web.

But, unfortunately, I dont think you will make any breakthroughs with a "believer" like indtruth. But kudos to you for ttrying.

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 106 of 259 )
satnam:

"I personally believe that the concept of trans-migration of souls(Punrjanma) not only makes sense intuitively but is very close to being proven empirically."

Empirical observations do not preclude coincidences. Double-blinded tests do.

The only problem with believing in such nonsense is that it distorts your view of reality. After all, if you dont understand reality as it really is (which is not easy, mind you), then it is unlikely that you will be able to understand and modify reality for your benefit. Mirages never sated a thirsty man.

indtruth 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 107 of 259 )
MUMBAI02, First things you must know that it was not a challenge. For satisfying your stupidity, you can buy one of the prediction from TimesofIndia or vedic astrology sites. Regarding the info you gave. You forgot your Time of Birth. I don't blame you. India is full of your kind who rush into conclusion and suffer from inferiority complex aided by UNHOLY TRINITY. Read Bible Mathew Chap 10 ver 12-15. There is a message for your kind of people.

indtruth 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 108 of 259 )
KARAPALL: For you there is only one thing. EYES THAT SEES ALL, SEE NOT ITSELF. So, if you think that you are the guy who is seeing reality and others like Guru Nanak, Gautam Bhudha and other Saints were hallucinating. Just because your low IQ cann't see beyond certain point doesn't mean that Eienstein was an lunatic and Earth is the center of universe and Sun and moon revolves around it.

indtruth 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 109 of 259 )
KARAPALL: People like you believe what they can see. Even flow of electrons in copper wire may be imaginary for you. Those wire must be pipes and light must be flowing from dams to your house. There is soul and only those who want to know will experience its experience. You may be in pretty good shape right now but Kal Chakra is turning. You will get enlightened when your time will come. I wish you luck. May ParamAtma bless you more knowledge and take you to library.

vikram99 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 110 of 259 )
mumbai

"I'll accept that challenge".

I don't think indtruth 'challenged' anybody around here.

Going offensive on something that you are not knowledgeable about is a sure sign of leftist leaning.

You don't believe something, just ignore it - don't go around bad mouthing it and defiling it as if it is your birthright or duty to do so.

There are lot of things that humans are not even aware of - bad mouthing it is not a sign of balanced or even scientific thinking.

vikram99 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 111 of 259 )
indtruth,

i sure can't fathom much of what you say. Maybe it requires much more reading and analysis to prove or disprove you.

But like Voltaire said -

"I may disagree with what you say, but I shall fight unto death your right to say so."

sinbad 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 112 of 259 )
indtruth,

I think I am getting a sense of what you are saying.Look, Bk and Satnam are doing an excellent job of presenting Vedantic/Sikh/Hindu philosophy quite cogently.

Karapall is a bright feller, he will read and absorb, I am quite sure.

gandalf 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 113 of 259 )
Indtruth, thanks for existing and participating. Would appreciate it if you could post more of your thought daily.

mumbai02 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 114 of 259 )
vikram99 post # 110 : "I don't think indtruth 'challenged' anybody around here. Going offensive on something that you are not knowledgeable about is a sure sign of leftist leaning. You don't believe something, just ignore it - don't go around bad mouthing it and defiling it as if it is your birthright or duty to do so. There are lot of things that humans are not even aware of - bad mouthing it is not a sign of balanced or even scientific thinking."

OK, my mistake. Indtruth didnt challenge anyone. I am challenging him. The following was indtruth's post (#78)

"Karapall: Why don't you give me date and place (in India) of birth of someone you know properly. Let me try to predict things. I am no astrologers but i have tried to learn it on my own. I am not sure how good i am but i will give it a try."

Karapall didnt respond to this. But I am very interested in knowing what astrology can predict and what it cannot. I dont believe that it can predict anything meaningful. But I would certainly like to know for sure. That is why I gave him my info to see if he could predict anything.

I dont agree with your statement that 'if you dont believe something, just ignore it'. I think it is stupid and even dangerous to believe in things that are so untrue. (assuming that astrology is a lot of nonsense). So instead of ignoring it one should try to change it.

Can you point to me where I 'badmouthed' or 'defiled' anything in my post ?

Indtruth was the one who claimed astrology makes sense. And I'm challenging him to prove that he means it.

mumbai02 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 115 of 259 )
indtruth (post #78)- "Karapall: Why don't you give me date and place (in India) of birth of someone you know properly. Let me try to predict things. I am no astrologers but i have tried to learn it on my own. I am not sure how good i am but i will give it a try. But easy and authentic way would be to buy prediction or software from good source."

Indtruth: In the above post you asked Karapall for the place and DOB of someone he knew. You didnt ask for time of birth. That is why I gave you my place and date of birth. (although I know astrologers typically ask for that info also). I dont know my time of birth. I'll get back to you with that info. Now I dont know any website which does the predictions. Which ones do you recommend ?

mumbai02 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 116 of 259 )
Folks have been quoting Voltaire here. So let me quote Shakespeare!

"The fault dear Brutus lies not in the stars, but in ourselves that we are underlings"

mumbai02 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 117 of 259 )
Folks have been quoting Voltaire here. So let me quote Shakespeare!

"The fault dear Brutus lies not in the stars, but in ourselves that we are underlings"

mumbai02 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 118 of 259 )
indtruth (post # 90)- "Karapall: Astrology has nothing to do with paranormal activity or phenomenon. Its all constant. Any person on this earth who has learnt vedic astrology will come to same prediction no matter where he is. It is no para-normal skills or anything. Its just a predictive science which needs knowledge of both mathematics and astronomy. Of course, then you need to have analytical power too. Thats why not everybody can learn it with flying colors."

I find it suprising that a 'science' that is supposed to predict human affairs doesnt need biology or psychology. And why would stars have anything to do with human affairs. What is the mechanism ?

Let me try to explain the approach of science. You formulate a law or theory. You make calculations with it (usually using mathematics) and predict what the law implies ie what you are supposed to observe. Then you compare the prediction with experiments or what you actually find in nature. If the predictions are true we say 'the law seems good'. Now that is what is usually called the scientific approach. An example is Newtons theory of gravitatation which says two masses attract each other with a force F = GMm/r*r. You can make predictions from this theory using mathematical calculations which explains the motion of planets around the sun, the moon around the earth, the rate at which stones all on the earth etc. You can also use the theory to predict the motion of artificial satellites and planet probes that we send. And it works! Things turn out OK. And when things dont turn out OK, we modify the theory. I'm sure you have heard about relativity, quantum mechanics etc. At the atomic scale or for objects traveling near the speed of light predictions using Newtons laws dont work. But predictions using QM and relativity do work.

What I'm trying to say here is that we know the mechanism for these laws, and how we approach the laws and how we use them. We are making definite predictions using the laws which makes it easy to verify or disprove them. Can you give me an analog is astrology ? What kind of predictions do astrologers make ? - Your business will be good ? Your marriage will be happy ? Are there easy ways to verify these predictions or how long do you wait? Or something like - Your child will be male ? You will get the job ? What explanation is going to be there if the predictions dont turn out to be true ?

I would like to hear your thoughts on this; or pointers to any websites which have a reasonable explanation ?

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 119 of 259 )
indtruth:

"For you there is only one thing. EYES THAT SEES ALL, SEE NOT ITSELF. So, if you think that you are the guy who is seeing reality and others like Guru Nanak, Gautam Bhudha and other Saints were hallucinati"

The central point, you idiot, is that NO ONE, not me, not Buddha or any other human like jesus or mohammed who has walked on this planet can claim to have understood reality IN ITS ENTIRETY. I, for one, have never claimed that.

However, just because we cannot understand reality it does not mean we should not try. And if we are going to make an effort to understand reality, it behooves us to ignore pseudo-science and other fake nonsense. Also, we should make our choices on what to believe and what not to believe based on good evidence, mind you; we dont want to have a closed mind on any subject.

Again, if you believe that you are god's gift to astrologu, go prove it to the world at www.randi.org and make yourself a million dollars. If you are going to fart around here claiming that you don want to do that, but you want to try your quackery on me to prove your credentials, then fuck off.

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 120 of 259 )
There was a really neat experiment conducted by the inimitable James Randi on astrology.

He went to the university of florida and rounded up a bunch of believers in astrology. Before these people entered the lecture hall, his people collected the names/date of birth, etc. to make "specialized astrological readings" of each person by a "world-famous astrologer". At the end of the lecture, he handed a sealed envelope to each person with the name of the person on it. ALL the people read their astrological reading, and EVERYONE, I repeat EVERYONE, asserted that the reading was 80-100% accurate. Then, James Randi turns right around and ask each person to pass his/her reading to the person next to him, and accept the reading of another person. THEY FIND OUT THAT ALL OF THEM HAD THE SAME READING!!!! this, indtruth, is how astrology works. You make general predictions that could be true for everyone, and you let the person's mind create the context for the prediction -- an answer searching for a question.

indtruth 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 121 of 259 )
KARAPALL; James Randi, "Dongy Babas", Magician etc can imitate things but can they be genuine and real? Never. What you are talking about is correct. There are lots of trickery around us. There is another e.g. about a famous christian faith healer called POPUP healer. He also fooled the mass. I am quite aware of such con artists. James Randi/Your example don't stand the test when we see our view colliding with each other. We are not Borgs that our astrological info will match. Further, Every one is not rich and every one is not intelligent. Here, I am talking about Vedic Astrology not just any astrology. You need brain for it. Timesofindia.com has some links which will satisfy your curiousity. Regarding giving your DOB and other details, I hardly know you and Karapall is just another fake name. We are just faceless and presenting our views on a topic.

indtruth 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 122 of 259 )
Mumbai: I do feel you are rational and you want to find truth by questioning. I like that approach. But i disagree about your scientific approach mentioned earlier. First, We make hypothesis /postulates based on observations (falling of apple) and experiments for reasonable amount on time. We try to prove that hypothesis in a controlled environment. We identify forces involved in the phenomenon. we try to consider action of all these external agents on the given subject to come out with relationship. But still we don't get the law yet. We calculate the constant or balancing value to balance the law. Newtons' Gravitational Law needed constant because despite the forces identified there was something missing to balance/stablise the law. He came out with the Gravitation constant based on the observation/experiments. But All the laws are not law yet because they are not considering TIME dimensions. As every planet including earth is moving away at faster rate. Forces acting upon them is also changing (F=G*M1*M1/R2). visible changes will be felt in couple of million years when laws will fail.

sinbad 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 123 of 259 )
Here is my birthdate and other details.

February 1st 1972

Mumbai near Chowpaty

1AM in the morning.

indtruth 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 124 of 259 )
Here is my birthdate and other details.

February 1st 1972

Mumbai near Chowpaty

1AM in the morning.

indtruth 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 125 of 259 )
Sinbad, I don't know how you got my id showing your info. If you are the one who want to work with me to test horoscope then i will try my best but i have to tell you I am not a professional. Astrology is too big and i have learnt very little till now because of my other occupation but i would like to test astrology and myself. But don't attack astrology for my mediocrity. Anyway, person born on feb 1, 1972 time 1am would be very immature/childish, materialistic and with stubborn mentaly but flashy and attractive in appearance.Despite being stubborn, person would be compromise when other is influential or lover. He will not be able to keep much or any money. person will have very good & supportive family member. He might loose his mother. he will have more chance of female offsprings all the time. There is lots of not good thing in this persons life. His girl child may expire. he may inherit fortune from his mother. His desire for a good jobs will be foremost and important among all his desires. Desires will be fulfilled by his mother or vehicle or land related field. You wont be able to keep mother or vehicle or land for long or enjoy is for long time. I am sorry if my prediction is wrong. I pray Lord to forgive me to predict things that turn out to be very sad. May god bless long life to his Mother.

sinbad 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 126 of 259 )
indtruthji,

Above overlap happens if two mailings are made at the same time.

Supposing we replace childish with childlike and stubborn with determined.

There are some striking similarities.

Thanks.

dinipc 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 127 of 259 )
Sinbad-ji, so does that mean indtruth did predict at least sumthing that u think is correct?

In any case, I m sure the astrology as documented in the scriptures or the vedas has far more basis to it than we are aware of. And just as Karapall-ji shrugs it off, I wud definitely give it a benefit of doubt, also in view of indtruth-ji's line of argument.

sinbad 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 128 of 259 )
dinipcji,

Answer is yes, but I am hoping,just as intruthji would be hoping that certain predictions turn out to be wrong.

sinbad 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 129 of 259 )
To All,

Think of how much knowledge must have been consumed by flames of bigotry, hatred and blind frenzy between 1050 and 1650, the six hundred years of darkness and unmitigated terror before Shivaji rose like the phoenix to save our souls.

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 130 of 259 )
indtruth:

"James Randi/Your example don't stand the test when we see our view colliding with each other."

Jeez, you are daft. Go read the James Randi example again. The moral of the story there is that astrology is all about making very generic statements that will have a context in any average person's mind. The testament to this is the fact that greater than 80% of the people thought that the reading was EXTREMELY PERSONAL!!! the reality was all of them GOT THE SAME READING!!!

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 131 of 259 )
indtruth/sinbad/dinipic,

There is more than enough evidence to clinch the fact that astrology is a bogus profession. Note that I am not claiming that it ought to be banned or otherwise restricted --- caveat emptor, as they say.

If indtruth thinks that he is not the "best" atrologer there is, I would urge him to point the best astrologer he knows to the James Randi Challenge. I am sure his astrologer friends wont have a problem with earning a million dollars by just doing what comes to them naturally.

mumbai02 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 132 of 259 )
indtruth:

regarding your post #122 I dont really want to get into a discussion of gravitation and/or mechanics. But I'll be glad if you are interested. But I want to make the following points.

1. Newton's law of gravitation gives the equation for the force between objects. Yes, that doesnt include time. But the effect of force from the point of view of time is given by the equation F = ma (also due to Newton). It says that an object changes velocity when subject to a force. A heavier body changes its velocity less, and a lighter body more for the same force. This applies to earth going around the sun or a stone that you drop on the surface of the earth.

2. Regarding the constant of gravitation, you need that because our units of mass and length (kilograms and meters) were defined so that they are convenient for everyday use and were probably defined before the law for gravitational force was formulaed. It is not a unique or 'ideal' unit in any way. It is perfectly possible to have units of mass and distance so that the gravitational constant G in the equation F = GMm/r*r is equal to 1. The only problem is then instead of buying 5 kilos of sugar every month you will buy (lets say) 5 x 10^(-15) 'units' of sugar. Not very convenient!

3. About the distance of the earth changing - i dont believe that. To the best of my knowledge the earth has been going around the sun for a few million years at least. And even if it is true that doesnt mean the law is wrong. You just have to put a different value of r in the formula and you can calculate the force using the SAME equation. If the distance increases (assuming you are right) the time it takes for the earth to go around the sun will increase ( to say 400 days). So our years will be longer. But it takes more than that to prove physical laws wrong.

But that is not the issue here. My main point is scientific laws make definite predictions which can be tested. And you can tell whether the law is true or not by comparing with experiments / nature. I dont see a similar system for astrological predictions.

I agree with Karapall that the method in astrology is to make general predictions that will be true for many people and let them create a context in their mind.

whitecap 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 133 of 259 )
Karapall,

Your agenda seems to be increasingly unclear. On one hand you support right wing religious extremists, on the other hand you seem to suggest you believe in religious freedom...

Please clarify your position. Thanks.

vikram99 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 134 of 259 )
It is the wretched policy of the 3M (mullah, marxist, missionary) mafia that one has to take everything or leave everything. After all that is what marxism, islam and christianity is all about. Believe fully or believe not at all - all or nothing - fanatic or heretic - momin or kafir - them or us. No question of individual freedom or enquiry at all in these exclusivist paths.

Hinduism is not an exclusivist doctrine like that. Freedom of thought, speech and action is not prohibited and no sadhu or sant issues a fatwa or burns a hindu on stake for disagreeing with its concepts.

And if you think astrology is only part of hinduism, check out US and European universities - as a university course it is taught in more christian countries than in india. Educate yourself before you come and shoot your mouth off here.

whitecap 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 135 of 259 )
Vikram,

My enquiry was address for Karapall. I would like him to enlighten us about his philosophy. What seems contradictory is that he is strong in his defence for extremist religious groups but actually seems quite opposed to one of their very basic and root philosophies. That is of conversion... i.e. what he said was the freedom to follow a religion of one's choice.

Actually I found his posts quite rational... yeas he seems more or less rational in his arguments... but I totally fail to understand why he supports the people whose philosophy he opposes.

This is to Karapall only, thanks.

vikram99 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 136 of 259 )
whitecap,

I take the liberty of replying you on a topic where even I am in a similar position as karapall that I do not subscribe to certain vedic things not scientifically proved/provable (as yet).

Supporting a hindu cause for equal treatment, exposing the pseudo-secularism of the india media, the hypocrisy of the missionaries and the jihadi machinery does not mean that he should blindly follows or for that matter any person who supports the above causes, anything and everything supposed to be 'hindu' or 'vedic'. You do not need to know hinduism or islam, leave alone understand and follow it, if you talk about equality of rights etc., from a human perspective.

One has every right to disregard anything in 'hindu/vedic' that he feels incompatible with his rational belief system. That he voices support for hindu causes does not snatch away his right to protest any thing that he feels is irrational or unscientific in hinduism.

But again, the approach that believe all or believe nothing etc. are exclusivist methods employed by 'peaceful' missionaries and jihadis that 'hindu extremist religious groups' do not subscribe to, leave alone follow.

whitecap 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 137 of 259 )
Ok Vikram or Karapall,

First question: What is the "Hindu Cause"? Please reply in some detail.

Second question: If you do not believe in the philosophy of Hinduism, then why support the "Hindu Cause"? Why not let those who believe in Hindu philosophy (or rather the "Hindu Cause" as you say) speak for themselves?

Third question: Is it really Hinduism you want to defend, or Hindu people that you want to defend? Why?

Even though you don't seem to believe in religion you seem to be very considerate for those who believe in it. I totally appreciate this attitude... but then why not this attitude for people of other religions? Any special reasons? From what I can understand from your posts you are not quite a Hindu by beliefs.... What exactly is your philosophy? Can you please put it in clearer words? Thank you for your patience.

whitecap 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 138 of 259 )
Ok Vikram or Karapall,

First question: What is the "Hindu Cause"? Please reply in some detail.

Second question: If you do not believe in the philosophy of Hinduism, then why support the "Hindu Cause"? Why not let those who believe in Hindu philosophy (or rather the "Hindu Cause" as you say) speak for themselves?

Third question: Is it really Hinduism you want to defend, or Hindu people that you want to defend? Why?

Even though you don't seem to believe in religion you seem to be very considerate for those who believe in it. I totally appreciate this attitude... but then why not this attitude for people of other religions? Any special reasons? From what I can understand from your posts you are not quite a Hindu by beliefs.... What exactly is your philosophy? Can you please put it in clearer words? Thank you for your patience.

vikram99 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 139 of 259 )
"If you do not believe in the philosophy of Hinduism"

who says so? there you go with your excusivist cap again. Hinduism has not one, but several philosophies and branches of studies and theories. And it also gives the freedom of enquiry in that I can accept some and not accept some, depending on my liberty. And I do accept many philosophies of hinduism and do not accept many more, some due to lack of understanding on my part and some due to lack of logical answers that I am unable to elicit for accepting the same.

This liberty is what is not provided by exclusivist faiths like islam and christianity that says - Us and them - land of believers and land of non believers - follower or heretic.

vikram99 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 140 of 259 )
"What is the "Hindu Cause"?"

With reference to the discussions here, it is nothing related to the spiritual or religiousness of hinduism.

It is related to the unjustified and biased treatment meted out to the parties or organisations that profess to protect hindu interests (whether they do it or not is a matter of separate debate though!) -

1.Secularism is a stick that is used to beat only the hindus and never used on muslims. Lack of UCC, Haj subsidies, protection to govt. funded minority institutions (till recently upto the judgement given by the SC) are a few such examples, money from temples goes into govt. coffers and a miniscule portion is spent on the maintenance of temples whereas govt. pumps in millions for maintaining mosques and madrassas.

2.Mulayam singh yadav can canvas and openly proclaim all the muslims to vote for him and it is not 'communalism', but when a BJP MP tells hindus to vote for him, it become 'communalism'.

3.Media never condemns killing of hindus by muslims. On the other hand it goes out of the way to justify those deeds. And it tides those unavoidable info' under '5 people from a particular community kill 2 people from another' and when it comes to the killing of muslims, the headlines blare - 'A group of hindus violently slaughter 5 muslims'. And immediately 3 interviews who go gaga about rising hindu fundamentalism, talibanization of hinduism blah blah.... And any atrocity by muslims and christians is only 'alleged' (if at all it is published) and when it comes to hindus, it is punish VHP/RSS first - then investigate. And upon investigation, if it arises that they are not responsible, forget it, no need to clarify!! Jauba nuns rape case, church blast case etc. are examples. Blatant lies are spread when a person belongs to BJP/VHP/RSS.

4.Total distortion of history and spreading canards, for the alledged sake of maintaining communal harmony. Suppress Aurangzeb's atrocities and project Islam and christianity as the only two religions that provide emancipation to human beings. Check out the bengal text books for this. There are several chapters on Mohammad and Lenin and only one chapter on Vivekananda.

Recently Romila Thapar, the marxist historian, while accepting that the aryan invasion theory was false, insisted that it could not be brought into text books for the sake of maintaining amity in the society!! How is this going to disturb the communal atmosphere between hindus and muslims in anyway, if muslims come to know that hindus have live from a time before even 4004 bce, the alleged date of creation of universe as per bible?

vikram99 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 141 of 259 )
"Is it really Hinduism you want to defend, or Hindu people that you want to defend? Why?"

Neither. I am too small to protect any group of people or to propogate their cause. As I said - nothing religious or spiritual about it.

What we are engaging in is bring out hypocrisy and the bias in the treatment meted out to a certain section of society solely for the reason that they are 'hindus' on organisations solely for the reason that they profess protection of hindu interests.

Spreading information about the disinformation spread by the totally biased, hypocritical and bigoted media, marxists and the nehruvian intellectual terrorists is the activity that is being undertaken.

vikram99 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 142 of 259 )
"why not this attitude for people of other religions?"

Where is the inequality meted out to muslims and Christians in India that requires our defence? And please note that such inequality must be for the sole reason of their path being islam / Christianity and not any due to any economical reason. Care to give examples? From what I can fathom, muslims are more equal than hindus in India.

Do you want me to lend my voice to the muslims when I find that not a single muslim protests when thousands of hindus are killed in Kashmir but goes on a rampage when a Jerry Falwell, thousands of miles away, says Mohammad is a terrorist?

Do you want me to speak for a Christian missionary who wants to continue indulging in converting hapless and uneducated people into Christianity by paying money or by denigrating hindu religion and calling it a satanic cult and by peeing on hindu idols?

Give me an instance where a hindu kicks a muslim or christian due to religious intolerance, I will find pleasure in kicking that hindu bigot.

Right or wrong is the issue. It is called ‘dharma’ which is not the same as ‘religion’ as most people confuse.

And if you are talking about the Gujarat riots, it has been condemned by more hindus than muslims. That includes people like Karapall and me. But problem is when you start isolating it from the engine that caused it – Godhra. People start hammering only the hindus and never look back to what caused it. In fact, the Indian media started inventing reasons for the sadhus, women and children being killed in godhra – they were shouting provocative slogans (Jai Sri Ram is a provocative slogan I was told), they dragged a muslim girl and gang raped her in the train (in front of their wives and children !!!). These have the effect of dangerously accentuating a feeling of victimization in the already victimized hindu mind. And what followed, though not good, was natural and I daresay, understandable, though not justifiable.

If number of casualties is the criteria for condemnation then the Kashmir genocide dwarfs the gujarat riots several times over. Over 30,000 hindus have been killed in Kashmir and over 4 million hindu kashmiris are driven out mercilessly and are rotting in refugee camps. How come media has never focused on their plight? How come the media never highlights that hindus NEVER retaliated this? And why should a hindu not believe that media is biased against hindus? Any media person or NGO or social worker or international citizen ever took up the cause of these hapless people like they did in the case of Gujarat refugee victims? Did these 'conscience keepers' ever file a suit with the International court of Justice against any J&K CM like they are doing it against Modi? Did any of these bigoted turds ever testify before the US commission for the sake of kashmiri hindus, like they are doing it now for the gujarati muslims? Did the media take out peace marches for the sake of kashmiri hindus?

dinipc 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 143 of 259 )
Vikram-ji, that was excellent. I think u have more or less shut up whitecap.

To make another point clear - of y Bal Thackeray accuses Muslims of being anti-nationals, and anti-Hindu, here is some hard-proof.

***********

http: //story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/021029/1 70/2jxc6.html

Indian Muslims pray as they prepare to bury unclaimed bodies of two Muslim militants in Ahmedabad, the main city of the western State of Gujarat, October 29, 2002. The two militants massacred at least 31 people in a Hindu temple in the state in September before being shot dead by commandos.

Can you believe this? These people are actually giving these terrorists, who massacred many innocent Hindus, a proper and peaceful burial. Just more evidence that they have brotherly love for Pakistanis. They are probably saying something along these lines "Allah, please give these jihadis 70 virgins, making sure they are all under 9 years old like prophet Muhammed's wife Ayesha."

**********

This information was lifted from a newsgroup on Google.

vikram99 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 144 of 259 )
dinipc,

Also if you remember a local muslim terrorist called Imam Ali (who is from TN) was killed recently in a police encounter in Bangalore. He was trained in POK by the pakistani terrorist groups. Look at the link between TN and POK !!! Hundreds of muslims turned up for his funeral in TN !!! Knowing fully well that he was a terrorist and has killed so many hindus purposefully.

Imam Ali was a prominent member of Al Umma, the islamic group that was behind the coimbatore blasts (aimed at assasinating Advani) that left tens of people massacred, blast of Chennai RSS headquarters that killed 15 RSS members, blast in the famous Madurai Meenakshi temple etc., The chief of this Al-Umma Abdul Nasser Madani is jailed in TN. And marxists are fighting and protesting for his release !!!

anwarsad 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 145 of 259 )
vikram99:

1 short of 100 IQ you continue to be a fruticake. Take the case of this terrorist in TN Imam Ali. You give the attendance of 100s at his funeral as an example of the lack of patriotism of all Muslims. There are 150 Million Muslims in India by some counts. 100s of nut cases should not besmirch the good name of the 149,999,900 other Muslims.

After all at the funeral anniversaries of people like the people who murdered Indira Gandhi, the PM of India, 1000s of people attend but we don't accuse every Sikh of being unpatriotic?

I don't know why but for some reason the Indian state and for that matter pakistan pays a lot of attention to dead bodies and these are handled with care by all. Personally I think Jihadi terrorists and other fruitcakes of the saffron variet if killed in the act of commiting their crime or as an order of the legal system should be asked to pay one further price and that is their remains should be mixed with fertilizer and used to improve the grain production in some place in India. There should be no marker to their existence. But that is just me. So I don't know why anyone ever handed over Imam Ali's body to his relatives or the the bodies of the terrorists in Gjuarat to the Waqf Board. And if it was handed to the Waqf board their are duty bound to give a decent burial. It would have been better to have handed over the bodies to ICL to be turned into fertilizer instead.

anwarsad 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 146 of 259 )
Vikram99 1 short of 100:

"Do you want me to lend my voice to the muslims when I find that not a single muslim protests when thousands of hindus are killed in Kashmir but goes on a rampage when a Jerry Falwell, thousands of miles away, says Mohammad is a terrorist?"

I protest vociferously the death of all innocent Hindus in Kashmir. It is an absolute crime to kill these people in the name of Islam or any other religious or non-religious "cause". How much more clearly can the one Muslim you are looking for to speak up for the killings of Hindus condemn the killings?

I condemn the buring of the train where those Hindus were burnt alive in Godhra. I hope the state finds the culprits, tries them and punishes them according to the laws of the land.

I condemn the bombings done by Muslim terrorists in Bombay. My father lost a Hindu friend of his in these bombings. No matter what the motivations this kind of behavior is absolutely despicable and I hope Dawwod Ibrahim and others pay for these and their other crimes.

I condemn the killings of those innocent tourists in Kashmir, those Sikhs in Kashmir, those other Hindus killed recently in Kashmir by Muslims. It is terrorism. All those doing such things should be apprehended, tried and punished and if they resist arrest killed outright.

I condemn Pakistan for waging this 50 year long Jihad against India for the land of Kashmir.

Now tell me if you have found "one" Muslim who has voiced his opinion against the killings of Hindus? Or are you blind enough to ignore this post somehow?

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 147 of 259 )
whitecap:

"Your agenda seems to be increasingly unclear. "

Golly be, we cant have that now, can we?

"On one hand you support right wing religious extremists, on the other hand you seem to suggest you believe in religious freedom"

Firstly, the above are your opinions. I dont view myself that way. Therefore, you dont have to be confused. Go about reading the little red book they gave you on how grand the Nehru/Gandhi clan is, and stop worrying about my agenda.

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 148 of 259 )
anwarsad::

"I protest vociferously the death of all innocent Hindus in Kashmir. "

Wow, he doth protest too much. You support the terrorist vermin pieces of shit in the Hurriyat, and they have no intention of letting pundits back into kashmir. So, basically, all your protests are meaningless...as always, if people watch the actions of Indian muslims rather than their words, they will easily discern a proclivity to deliberately lie about muslim issues to the hindu citizens. You pro-jihadi motherfuckers need to have this duplicitous mask ripped off your faces.

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 149 of 259 )
Excellent repartees, vikram. Good job beating these pseudo-secular shitheads.

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 150 of 259 )
anwarsad:

"I condemn the buring of the train where those Hindus were burnt alive in Godhra. I hope the state finds the culprits, tries them and punishes them according to the laws of the land."

Let us remind all readers that this is the same jihadi shit who claimed that the VHP burnt the kar sevaks to give muslims a bad name. This is the same jihadi shit who claimed that the kar sevaks bought it on themselves by singing Ram naam in a muslim locality (apparently, religious freedom does not apply to hindus -- it applies only to muslims).

whitecap 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 151 of 259 )
Karapall:"I dont view myself that way."

Then please tell us how you view yourself, I want to know if you don't really mind. The view I posted was what I could deduce from your posts. If I am wrong then tell me what is right.

indtruth 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 152 of 259 )
mumbai02: I don't mind discussing science with you. F=ma or mg is Newton's first law of motion also called law of inertia.V=U+AT OR U+GT (G=acceleration due to gravity, V=final velocity, U = Initial)are other laws. I learnt this when i was in school. In my previous post, i wanted to stress on the scientific approach from Observation to hypothesis to simulating it in control environment. Anyway, Regarding planets including earth moving away from each other. Research a little on Big Bang Theory and String Theory. You will find your answer. I being from tech side usually like to learn and observe things without prejuides. I was very skepticle but i met some Baba during rare visit to village. He was telling things about my family member. I didn't like falling in his feat as he seems to be of my age and uneducated. My assumtion of his being uneducated was my first mistake. It is this assumption usually makes people get fooled. This guys was one of the best mathematician in his school times but went into spiritual quest after loosing both his parent. Because of my insistance he shared some knowledge in my 4hrs of interaction. His lack of english knowledge was a stumbling block for me. But he managed to teach me the basics. I am still working on it. Mr. Karapall one day i will challenge that asshole Randy and would rejoice his loss of millions. I hope, that money could be used to alleviate poverty in India and bring respect and prestige to dalits who are misled by 3M and Unholy Trinity cults.

indtruth 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 153 of 259 )
White Cap: There is no dearth of 3M stooges in our country. I am glad to find another one. You want to know why educated, both in religion and science, are supporting Hindus and their faith. Because, It is only a Hindu who can beat his son/daughter for torturing a muslim or christian or hindu. If one Hindu protest the action of muslim/christian. Then another Hindu will stand by these muslim/christian even if he might have murdered Hindu community in the most heinous way.Both Hindus are right. One wants to punish a person for murder. Another wants to protect a life. It is this concept of Hinduism that has let most of faith to survive even if some are militant/ghetto religions like christianity and Sunni.

whitecap 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 154 of 259 )
Indtruth,

From your posts and posts of Karapall, Vikram, etc I can see that there is a lot of misunderstanding. This is a major problem with Muslims and Hindus of India. This is what creates bad feelings... misunderstandings. And once the bad thought is well in place in the psyche it becomes easier for the bad action.

The reason for this could be the separation of the two communities and not enough interaction. After hearing peoples opinions from accross India and also from people in other parts of the world, this is the conclusion I have come to.

whitecap 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 155 of 259 )
See here people, misunderstanding in themselves can be a cause of great problems, but in India it is not just plain misunderstandings. There is also that very evil political manipulation, where people for political gains exploit the differences and misunderstandings.

This is perhaps a major problem with a democracy.

whitecap 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 156 of 259 )
In a democracy the people wanting power will always want to misuse their demographic base and most often than not it will be the smarter amongst the people who will win and be in power.

This will render the populace even more at the mercy of these psychological freaks. Indeed the ruling parties and politicians will find it easier to play with the emotions of the common people. In a way perhaps it is a natural course for a democratic system........... like that of India.....

whitecap 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 157 of 259 )
I'll wait for responses and then post more if I feel like it.

vikram99 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 158 of 259 )
whitecap,

I agree with your message 154, 155 and 156.

Misunderstanding, lack of trust etc., springs from the basic reason that people have been fed lies and frauds and are prevented from seeing the truth. Provide the facts, the truth, the rest will follow. The organisation that suppresses the facts to further its political interests has to be mowed down if misunderstandings are to be cleared. Eg., Commies and pinkos who have awarded themselves the post of 'guardian of the kingdom of India' and would like to run this country accordingly. Muzzling, distorting, supressing facts to continue sitting on that fiefdom has given birth to most evils in the society today.

What is the solution?

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 159 of 259 )
whitecap:

"If I am wrong then tell me what is right."

My view is similar to that of vikram's. I personally dont follow or endorse any religion. However, I do see that the marxist/congress/pseudo-secular cabal is encouraging islamic fundamentalism tacitly because they want to protect their vote banks, and spit on hindu interests because there is no such thing as a hindu vote bank...so far. As far as I can tell, any attempt to unite hindus to speak out for their interests is immediately branded "hindu nationalist fascism". I dont buy that bullshit from these pseudo-secular MFs. In my mind, these pseudo-secular wankers seem to have a need to feel intellectually- and morally superior to the "unwashed hindu masses"...although their arguments on this front are not only weak in their logic, they drip of anti-hindu bigotry. I am all for deriding fundamentalism of any sort, but I WILL DEFINITELY NOT GIVE THE EASY OVER ON ISLAMIC WAHABBI JIHADISM AND FUNDAMENTALISM, which is spreading like cancer in wahabbi madrassas all over the country. Did that make sense?

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 160 of 259 )
whitecap:

"In a democracy the people wanting power will always want to misuse their demographic base and most often than not it will be the smarter amongst the people who will win and be in power."

I think reality would indicate that you are wrong. The congress has been coming to power in many states with a purely communal agenda and a lot of talk on the "non performance of the ruling party". These same congress shitheads cant seem to take a peek their own TERRIBLE performance in many states that are almost breaking down.

In India, the congress wallahs have a huge number of supporters and well-wishers that own papers like Indian Express, Outlook India, The Hindu, and other pseudo-secular/marxist rags; these people have no interest in the public interest, as can be seen from the way they protrayed Ansal Bhavan shootout. The 3M cabal and its arselickers in the english media's sole purpose is to ensure a congress victory in the next election, by slandering and lying about the ruling party and its performance. This is certainly not the way the press is supposed to behave. When the press becomes corrupted by dreams of having access to corridors of power when the congress win, as it has today, then there is no reason to believe them.

indtruth 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 161 of 259 )
WhiteCap: "There is also that very evil political manipulation, where people for political gains exploit the differences and misunderstandings."

You are right about that. Hindus are 80% or so in India. If you use this force in progress of India by motivating them, India can achieve its glory But if you think, you can convert Hindus to Christianity then you will only take India to drain and destruction. Think about. Separation of church and state and creation of Vatican will give you an idea of these religion real intention.

indtruth 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 162 of 259 )
WHITE CAP: KARAPALL is an aethist. Being Hindu, I am ok with that but Islam and Jesuits are not ok with that. I am telling this from their scripture. I don't need to go to politician or commis dictators to prove these militant religion. Read news, what christian have done in South America? What they are doing in USA foreign policies? What Muslims are doing in Islamic states? Then you talk about India. Hindus are minorities in Global village which need protection from these religions. But In India, everybody is attacking Hindus because POPE gave a call to convert Hindus.

dinipc 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 163 of 259 )
anwarsad:

"Now tell me if you have found "one" Muslim who has voiced his opinion against the killings of Hindus? Or are you blind enough to ignore this post somehow?"

R u thinking that we are against the Muslims, per se?? Perhaps u r! But u have to realize one thing, my friend, that the violent activities of the VHP and the other Hindu organizations that people here so volubly condemn are the result of "Protest against one, in the form of another".

While u have been very generous to condemn the violence by the followers of Islam, u are in a territory where there are hardly a handful to join u. The vigour and the passion with which our English media has taken up Gujarat, it hasnt taken the Bombay blasts, the Coimbatore blasts, the cause of the kashmiri Pandits with even 1% of that. Tell me how many articles do u find sympathesizing with the Kashmiri Pandits in today's newspapers? And now many references do u find to the demolition of the Babri Masjid even today!

Fact is, that the English media is completely controlled by the COngress and the Communists who are pitted against the BJP, and they will go out of their way to portray the BJP and its sister organizations in the eyes of the public.

Fact is, while they underplay the Islamic violence in the country, they totally overplay the Hindutva violence. It is this imbalance that is creating even more violence - when Amarnath Pilgrims are charged a phenomenal pilgrim security tax (while travelling in their own country) and the Haj Pilgrims are alloted massive discounts and subsidies in airfare and travel (outside the country).

The Hindutva organizations r *simply not given a voice* in the English media. THeir concerns and issues are downplayed and on the contrary they r always portrayed as the ultimate evil of soceity.

So, instead of just naively condemning ISlamic violence on these message boards and elsewhere, unless u will not work towards removing this imbalance, u will have done nothing to solve the problem.

dinipc 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 164 of 259 )
anwarsad:

"Now tell me if you have found "one" Muslim who has voiced his opinion against the killings of Hindus? Or are you blind enough to ignore this post somehow?"

R u thinking that we are against the Muslims, per se?? Perhaps u r! But u have to realize one thing, my friend, that the violent activities of the VHP and the other Hindu organizations that people here so volubly condemn are the result of "Protest against one, in the form of another".

While u have been very generous to condemn the violence by the followers of Islam, u are in a territory where there are hardly a handful to join u. The vigour and the passion with which our English media has taken up Gujarat, it hasnt taken the Bombay blasts, the Coimbatore blasts, the cause of the kashmiri Pandits with even 1% of that. Tell me how many articles do u find sympathesizing with the Kashmiri Pandits in today's newspapers? And now many references do u find to the demolition of the Babri Masjid even today!

Fact is, that the English media is completely controlled by the COngress and the Communists who are pitted against the BJP, and they will go out of their way to portray the BJP and its sister organizations as evil and fascist in the eyes of the public.

Fact is, while they underplay the Islamic violence in the country and totally overplay the Hindutva violence. It is this imbalance that is creating even more violence - when Amarnath Pilgrims are charged a phenomenal pilgrim security tax (while travelling in their own country) and the Haj Pilgrims are alloted massive discounts and subsidies in airfare and travel (outside the country).

The Hindutva organizations r *simply not given a voice* in the English media. THey concerns and issues are downplayed and on the contrary they r always portrayed as the ultimate evil of soceity.

So, instead of just naively condemnly ISlamic violence on these message boards and elsewhere, unless u will not work towards removing this imbalance, u will have done nothing to solve the problem.

dinipc 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 165 of 259 )
Vikram-ji,

There is one more important point that has to be noted, with respect to Islamic Violence vis-a-vis Hindutva violence.

If u look into all the cases of Islamic violence, u will see that a large number of acts of violence (except Godhra) have been very meticulously planned and involve the use of extremely modern technology in terms of ammunitions (RDX for Bombay, coimbatore Bomb blasts), guns(AK-47s, AK-56s in the ethnic cleansing of Kashmir, Akshardham), remote-controlled equipment (Bombay bomb blasts), etc.

On the other hand, all Hindutva violence has been random and haphazard with the use of weaponry which is very commonly available, like trishuls, swords, knives (and stones to demolish the Babri Masjid), fire (to burn the Australian missionary, Graeme Staines, etc) and rioting incidents. These incidents could have in no possible way been planned - simply because they have been classified as acts of rioting.

This itself proves that Hindutva violence is an act of rebellion against a pro-longed suppression of rights, interests and points of view of a certain section of people of society. Incidentally, that group is the majority Hindu community.

There is no other word other than "terrorism" that would describe Islamic violence.

dinipc 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 166 of 259 )
Vikram-ji,

"Hundreds of muslims turned up for his funeral in TN !!!"

I did read sumwhere that the Israelis used to bury the bodies/remains of the bodies, of the Palestine suicide bombers wrapped in Pig-skin and with pieces of pig/pork. That discouraged a lot of suicide bombers, because the morons believed they wont get the promised 72 houries, this way.

The recently killed Chechen terrorists in Russia, I think, were also buried with pig skin, etc, but i m not sure.

Considering that these Islamic jehadi terrorists are narrow-mindedly stuck with the word of the Koran, dont u think the Indian Government shud give such burials to killed terrorists' unclaimed bodies (like in the case of Delhi Ansal Plaza shootout, terrorists)???

It would be interesting to see how the Muslim community in India respond to this proposal? I m sure of being the target of some bad-mouthing by people like gandalf, et al.

vikram99 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 167 of 259 )
"....the Israelis used to bury the bodies/remains of the bodies, of the Palestine suicide bombers wrapped in Pig-skin and with pieces of pig/pork. That discouraged a lot of suicide bombers, because the morons believed they wont get the promised 72 houries, this way."

That's a good one. Trust the jews to come up with a novel idea. Think India should follow the same example.

But then Russia, Israel and USA does not have a traitorous opposition like congress and marxists. Or for that matter any country in the world, including pakistan !!! So, these traitors will ensure a communal rampage if the govt. even contemplates such a thing. The prob. with the kaangress, media and marxists is that they do no differentiate between ordinary muslims and jihadis. All for politics of course.

vikram99 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 168 of 259 )
In fact, the next thing that the congress, marxists and the media (also NGOs, NHRC, 'eminent' journos like Kuldip Nayar, Praful Bidwai etc.) may ask for is a state funeral for the slain terrorists.

After all there is no enemity after death, they will reason out. And we have to accept it. Otherwise we will be branded anti-secular, communalist, fascist, revanchist, saffronist, rightist......

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 169 of 259 )
http://www.ndtv.com/topstories/showtopstory.asp?sl ug=Report+questions+VHP+funding&id=10661

Lo oks like the marxist/communist/muslim cabal is active in California trying to get VHP and RSS marked as terrorist groups. Note how the pseudo-secular shitheads have not mentioned who started these groups because I can guarantee you that it was some Indian muslim jihadi motherfucker.

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 170 of 259 )

"That's a good one. Trust the jews to come up with a novel idea. "

This idea was first thought out by a British Army officer in the phillipines in the 1930s. The islamic terrorist group that was killing civilians at that time completely stopped its activities after this was conducted. Unfortunately, we in India dont have the will to crush terrorism to psychologically crushing them using above techniques. If they are not guaranteed to get 72 houris because they will be buried with pig's entrails, I am sure fewer muslim men will join the hands of jihadi terrorists.

indtruth 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 171 of 259 )
I think, we are making mistake by attacking Muslims in India. If Hindu think muslims are their enemy then they are in deep water. I think, real threat to Tolerant Hindu way of living comes from Christian who are passionately involved in making Hindus poor and with the help of christian media project Hindus group as fundamentalist. Hindus who believe in Chanakya must not forget the lessons he wrote for the Hindus. Muslim are not real Ksyhtirya who fight openly unlike Christian who stab you from behind. So, Be careful of this Christian variety.

indtruth 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 172 of 259 )
Muslim are behaving Jihadi way because they have been mislead by Muslim clerics who use them as pawn and these innocent people die for nothing. But we must be careful of these western funded Christian who initiated "WESTEND OPERATION" tehelka. Guy was SAMUEL, A bastard christian who wanted to destabilise the Govt and destroy the country. Then Biju Mathew and coterie who want to stop the funding to reduce Poverty in India by campaigning against Hindu organistion in Western country to stop funding to help poor Hindus. Time have come to talk nice and screw these Indian christian with smiling face. Because they will not stop at anything to bring bad name to India.

indtruth 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 173 of 259 )
Muslim knows How Christian have played with Islamic country and forces them to live in ghetto. Iran democracy was toppled by christian USA by supoorting dictator Iranian King. Today, Iran became a Islamic country just because Christian lobby in USA wanted muslim to live in ghetto and under evil empire Muslim must support their Hindu brother who just want to live in peace. Muslim shouldn;t fear anything because Hindu don't convert. It is the christian who want to wipe out muslim from this earth. Iraq is the begining. So muslim brother join hands with Hindu brother and expose these Indian Christian.

vikram99 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 174 of 259 )
indtruth,

"Muslim are behaving Jihadi way because they have been mislead by Muslim clerics who use them as pawn and these innocent people die for nothing"

And they will continue to be misled by the mullahs till Islam lasts. No way out for the muslims, unfortunately. Those who do not accept the mullah are sidelined completely.

No solution in sight unless the muslims totally revamp their way of life, their quran and everything that goes with it. This seems an impossibility given the mind set of an average muslim who will never think that anything is wrong with his religion or quran. So come out of you dreams and focus on what is facing us in real life.

sinbad 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 175 of 259 )
There is no profit in stopping those bent on committing suicide, just ensure that they do not become suicide bombers.

Do you know of any Muslim who has openly and publicly proclaimed that he disagrees with anything in the Koran? NO. Then the same person will tell you to be a secular Indian because the constitution so demands.In the US he is secular, in Pakistan he has murdered all the minorities!!!! Great just great!!!

He has the religious right to be a Jehadi, you have the constitutional responsibility to feed the snakes!!

The number of Catholics in India is small and hardly growing. The number of Muslims high, say about 12.5%, and growing.

sinbad 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 176 of 259 )
And it is in spirit of secularism that ignorance, blindness and hatred are fought.

If your creed tells you to hate and despise rest of the humanity, then it has no place in a secular society.

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 177 of 259 )
indtruth:

what the fuck are you blabbering about?? Indian christians are not a threat to India; their numbers are miniscule. Indian muslims on the other hand, especially the wahabbi/deobandi jihadis, are hand in glove with every known terrorist/seccessionist movement in the country.

Dont let your prejudice against christianity cloud your judgement.

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 178 of 259 )
http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/nov/21shahid.htm
This italian bitch antonia Maino is going to England to speak about "communal harmony". Hindus must make a note of the kind of anti-hindu and anti-BJP rhetoric she uses in the presence of foreigners. This bitch is upto no good, and she will raise the old "hindus are fascist nazis" routine that the congress has been trying to perfect since the BJP came to power. This italian imbecile will piss in all things hindu. Just make sure that you spread the word about this bitch's anti-hindu attitudes.

indtruth 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 179 of 259 )
Don't forget it was christian Italy that gave birth to Fascism that most of Unholy trinity use to name RSS & VHP. Sonia Maino comes from such a family who has its root in fascist movement. But I still disagree that muslim are the problem. They are brainless as the brain that guides them are foolish. Despite the fact that Islam is the fastest growing religion on this earth and With some patience they could one day be the major religion in US but Osama type are turing into enemy of their own religion. But Muslim are stupid and it is very easy to deal with them as they don;t enjoy a good image neither they have any Power to push their agenda. But main problem for Hindu is coming from Christian because of their strong network. Christian nations who have strong militry and who have ability to dictate their term. It is difficult to do anything without conforming to their dictate. A christian US is as much threat as a Muslim US. Jews know it and they deal with it with their mind open. Hindus must pay more attention to christian movement then muslim Jihadis as these Jihadi breed will die anyway by the forces but we have to catch Christian who more or less work like foriegn spy. They strike are vital point. So, Beware of them because they not only have media support but also the money power.

indtruth 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 180 of 259 )
It is not difficult to defeat a mad man than a man who thinks and has connection in mighty powers sources. Muslim can easily be defeated with brain if VHP and RSS type use their brain instead of behaving like hooligan and brain dead people. A higher civilization keep people with lesser IQ away with the help of their brain. That keep muslim happy and Hindus in good standing before these communities. Anyway, we are the elder brothers of these minorities religion. We can make them happy and at the same time make other life easier.

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 181 of 259 )
indtruth:

"But Muslim are stupid and it is very easy to deal with them as they don;t enjoy a good image neither they have any Power to push their agenda."

Muslims are defintely a lot smarter than you hindu boneheads give then credit. This is evident from the fact that you hindu cretins cannot even persuade these muslim shits (by force if necessary) to voluntarily help the hindus bring back Rama's temple in Ayodhya. Muslims have been very clever in playing the victim, when it is very clear that they are the confrontational aggressors in this case. The hindu shits have just ended up portraying themselves as "evil fascists" with a lot of help from the pro-muslim anti-hindu motherfuckers in the Indian english media.

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 182 of 259 )
indtruth:

"Muslim can easily be defeated with brain if VHP and RSS type use their brain instead of behaving like hooligan and brain dead people."

I agree with you 100%. The muslims can be decimated if the hindu groups get a lot more suave. Also, hindu groups need to eliminate the pseudo-secular, anti-hindu, pro-muslim motherfuckers in the Indian english media who are working very hard at the international level to get hindu groups declared as terrorists. The lying shitheads in the english media need to be exterminated. One cannot reason with these politically motivated pseudo-secular motherfuckers.

dinipc 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 183 of 259 )
I agree with Karapall-ji and indtruth-ji. The BJP/VHP/RSS need some image-building and some suave PR techniques. And my mission is to do just that, essentially.

Karapall-ji Muslims themselves aint smarter; as u point u, the pseudo-secular dickheads have been instrumental in making them perceive as smarter.

I agree with indtruth, Christian organizations/individuals have been killing the body from the inside, and the I also agree with the rest, Muslims have been killing it from the outside. Lets just settle for, both the groups being equally *dangerous* to the well-being of our country!

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 184 of 259 )
one thing hindu groups should do is use the word anti-hindu whenever they refer to the congress party. The anti-hindu congress motherfuckers have been depending on not being identified as anti-hindu assholes to openly suck up to the muslim vote bank, while at the same time garnering votes from hindus who are ignorant about the anti-hindu policies of the congress.

indtruth 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 185 of 259 )
I think, we all agree that we have vented our anguishes in this forum. We all agree that Muslim and Christian number can only increase by their parasitic behavior of feeding on the Hindu community. By diving Hindus and ruling them by proxy was British policy which Congress just followed blindly as Nehru was too busy with Mountbatten beautiful Wife and other congressmen were busy looting the leftover of British Raj. After British left, Congressmen wanted to behave like British and by doing that they were feeling like Royals. But Royal asses have beeb kicked all over this world. British Congress royalty has to go and party who listen to People's opinion will only survive. Congress Simon, SOnia Go Back. DOWN WITH SONIA SIMON !! BRITISH CONGRESS GO BACK!!

indtruth 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 186 of 259 )
Recently, there was a Victoria secret competition in USA and Christian group wanted it to be evil work. So they didn;t go shout religious scriptures. They reached in plain cloths as animals rights groups and disrupted the show. In Italy, another Designer was having fashion show on the theme where models were wearing bullet neclace, cross painted on their backs and gallow hood on their head. Idea was cross and hood and bullet are criminal thing but sexy. Christian wanted to stop this how because of cross. They didn't shout slongan. They made it a women issue by talking about Women in hood represent slavery. So, get result by drawing attentin to non religious, animal, human, women, minorities issues.

indtruth 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 187 of 259 )
Recently, A australian MP who is Christian Pastor/preacher tried another clever tactics. He said women who are covered in veil are fundamental muslim and are danger to the security of the society. This will make people around such veiled women to be suspicious and eventually lead to social ostracization. Some will convert out of society pressure and some will unveil themselve to show they are free and thus divide muslim community. Never forget that Christian network not only give access to media but also to think tank who do nothing but think about ways to convert.

indtruth 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 188 of 259 )
Another interesting method, In Sri Lanka, religious conversion is banned. So christian sent their South Korean agent to setup a company who sell christianity as product. As a company they are ok by law to sell product. They are doing the same thing of conversion but not as a religious group but as a Company bound under company acts not religious acts.

indtruth 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 189 of 259 )
ARE WE HINDUS PUNISHED FOR SIDING WITH GANDHI'S SECULAR VISION? IS IT A PUNISHMENT HINDUS HAVE TO UNDERGO TO ACCEPT MUSLIM AND CHRISTIAN AFTER INDIA WAS PARTITIONED BY CONGRESS ON THE RELIGIOUS LINE? IS CONGRESS PUNISHING HINDUS FOR ALLOWING MUSLIM AND CHRISTIAN TO STAY IN INDIA INSTEAD OF PAKISTAN AND BANGLADESH.

sinbad 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 190 of 259 )
No matter how secular one is, one cannot deny the fact

THAT MUSLIMS LOST THE MORAL RIGHT TO LIVE IN INDIA AFTER THE MUSLIM LEAGUE, WHICH THEY SUPPORTED,CREATED PAAPILAND WITH THE CONNIVANCE OF THE BRITISH WHOM THEY SERVED SHAMELESSLY, NO MATTER WHAT THE LEGALITIES AND CONSTITUTIONALITIES ARE.Paapiland's continuous war of terror against India and minorities there along with the seperatist insurgency in Kashmir only supports above.

sinbad 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 191 of 259 )
No secular person can deny that people whose ancestors were converted by employing terror and bribery, cannot be persuaded to go back to Hinduism.

Now say this in public and see how the Muslim, Christian organizations and the pseudo secularists will scream to the heavens.

The original act of vio;ence or series of acts of violence and terror is no problem, but retaliation or reaction is the worst possible crime. In legal parlance, the robber is to be excused but the victim must be hanged for daring to fight in self defence.

sinbad 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 192 of 259 )
In para one should read:

No secular person can deny that whose ancestors were converted by employing terror and bribery , should be persuaded gently, of course, to go back to Hinduism without fear . Such illicit and immoral conversions insult the soul of India.

Sorry about that.

sinbad 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 193 of 259 )
Some 40,000 Hindu temples were destroyed by the frenzy of the barbarians and other structures imposed there.

Sadly, one must conclude that everyone of these structures, religious or otherwise, is AN ILLICIT AMD IMMORAL STRUCTURE.

Has anyone one of our secular Muslims including the richest man in India have come forward with a meaningful offer to rebuild the heritage of India. If not, and which is the case, these hypocrites are yelling for secularism only to protect their real ends, there is no conviction there, none whatever.

If Indian Muslims were secular, Pakistan would be a secular country and not a haven for terrorism, And minorities would be living honorably there indtead of being butchered and driven out.

sinbad 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 194 of 259 )
Has any one of our pseudo secular pimps and whores visiting Paapiland , ever bother to ask the rulers there:

WHERE ARE THE HINDUS AND SIKHS, WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM.

These bastards ,who cry profusely over the partial desruction of one iilegal structure,have they ever asked :

HOW MANY TEMPLES AND GURUDWARAS HAVE BEEN DESTROYED IN PAAPILAND SINCE AUGUST 14,1947.

Bindraji, have you ever asked yourself these questions, Anwarsadji, what about you. These are poignant questions, questions relating to most basic human rights.The answers are wrapped in tears and blood,Those who get angry about this ongoing outrage are SANGHIS!

indtruth 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 195 of 259 )
A curious mind is always open to every intriguing possiblities. There are many form of astrology that is prevalent in the world. Most of them are just bogus. But it is Vedic Astrology that has real substance. There are many things our mind is not capable of grasping today but with the passage of time we will be able to understand the effect of planets and stars on our lifes. Despite there is no visible relationship between our life and planets, Sun, stars, Prediction done based on Vedic astrology has given very consistent results. What is needed today is research to validate it. We give a subject a tag of science only after we validate it to be qualifying as one. But Karapall types don't even what to experiment. They want everybody to go to Randi evil sites. Matter of the fact is A shastra or science is not existing in this world bcuz of whimsical people. A curious mind is always open to every intriguing possiblities.

vikram99 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 196 of 259 )
indtruth,

BOSS! Pleeese. The 3M combine is wiping the arses of all hindu organisations overseas and in India. Come to the present and think of strategies to hit their balls back.

We will surely discuss other matters later. We can discuss those only if hinduism survives this onslaught of these depraved worms.

So, FOCUS, FOCUS AND FOCUS on what should be done to counter the onslaught of the 3M cabal.

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 197 of 259 )
indtruth:

You are a brainless shithead who cannot even comprehend what your current battles are and who your current enemies are, and what they are doing to screw the interests of you and your ilk. Go ahead and masturbate a little more about astrology, you moron, I am sure that will protect your interests as a hindu and a citizen of India against the conversion vultures and the jihadis. With shitheads like you, it is no wonder that hindus cannot even counter the assholes and imbeciles who constitute the pseudo-secular, marxist cabal.

anwarsad 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 198 of 259 )
Karpallu and Indtruth:

Karpallu is it not fun to come across Indtruth and realize where excessive reliance on religion can bring us all.

According to this braniac Indtruth Vedic Astrology has given consistent and good results. But this Buddhiman then goes on to say what is needed next is research to validate it! So my fellow idiotic countryman how did you figure out the results from this "science" i.e. Vedic Astrology are consistent and good if you have no research to back up your claims. Should you not instead say that anecdotal evidence suggests that vedic Astrology works and now more rigorous statistical measurements need to be taken to validate the hypothesis instead? You guys are all morons. Once you assume that your conjecture is true and then go looking for incidents to back up your claim whether it be astrology and or your opinions about Muslims etc. Monkeys all.

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 199 of 259 )
anwarsad:

"Karpallu is it not fun to come across Indtruth and realize where excessive reliance on religion can bring us all."

Indtruth's idiocy is similar to muslims claiming that Mohammed was not a pedophile by today's standards, even when the Quran states that he fucked a 10-year old. However, indtruth seems to be genuinely secular in his rhetoric and has been calling for hindu-muslim unity, going by his posts.

The question really is: why is it that you are suddenly equating his stance that hinduism is great with islamic jihadi terrorism indulged in by Indian muslims?? Indtruth is certainly not communal, even though he seems to have swallowed a lot of religious, hindu bullshit that is not supported by scientific methods. He is well within his rights to do so, not just in India, but anywhere in the world. If he had been tacitly supporting jihadism (under the cloak of pseudo-secularism...well, that would be a different matter altogether).

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 200 of 259 )
anwarsad:

"Should you not instead say that anecdotal evidence suggests that vedic Astrology works and now more rigorous statistical measurements need to be taken to validate the hypothesis instead? You guys are all morons. "

I have already pointed indtruth to various double-blinded studies that have negated all this crap. So, pay attention, you stupid turd, and stop fighting strawmen.

Go to www.randi.org if you want to read about scientific studies debunking astrology of all shades and varieties.

anwarsad 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 201 of 259 )
Sinbad:

Well, well, well. Let me see your logic. Every temple that was destroyed, no matter when, even if it was before the stablishment of the country itself in 1947 is an immoral structure! I guess by extension of this logic some form of redress is needed?

Why keep this logical reasoning confined to just places of worship apply this to all other inanimate and animate entities of one faith or the other. By this reasoning of course you would have a right to throw out all Muslims because their presence itself would be immoral because their forfathers came tot his country as conquerors or what have you!

Nice try but alas no sane person buys this "logic". As usual this reasoning shows that the Hindu brigades are not interested in agreements, rappproachments etc. It is all a code word for the destruction of Muslims in India. One of your more reasonable proponents queried why not agree to the 3 major places in question as a sign of "Reasonableness" on part of Muslims. Might have been you. Why should the Muslims because in reality your designs are not on just 3 of those places but on each and every Mossque in India, nay in fact on all the Muslims in India. Of course there can be no agreement in this situation. Let the courts decide.

It is funny to hear that our country that has failed to record its history accurately in a written form for ages can actually point to places where temples were destroyed aeons ago. Since this post has been made under astrology I can only guess to the source of this evidence that permits you to make such a claim. Let me guess, Vedic Astrology? :) Good try.

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 202 of 259 )
Another priceless quote from this braindead, senile, pseudo-secular shithead of an MP, Kuldip Nayyar. Note how he says that he is "certain" that these terrorists were pakistanis, but that wont stop him from slandering the denigrating the work of the Indian police. This clueless shithead is supposed to be a law maker, when it is clear that he is yet to understand the different between the state (and its absolute power as an entity in all matters Indian) and the people who comprise the state, such as the police, and the various checks and balances in the system that makes it all work magically somehow. This piece of shit seems to think that democracy means anyone can call the "state" a terrorist and get away with such slander. According to this shithead Kuldip Nayyar, only a concerned Indian would call India a terrorist state, like he does. What do you say to such senile pieces of shit??

The problem with most of us is that we do not hold any discourses dispassionately. Those who constitute the establishment do not use arguments to defend themselves, but resort to abuse to cover up their deficiencies. The BJP spokesman's spat made the foreign office in Islamabad say that the Indian media had suggested that the evidence of the terrorists' nationality was "fabricated". There has been no such discussion in the media. There is enough evidence that they were terrorists. They may well have been from Pakistan because it has not stopped cross-border terrorism. The Lashkar-e-Tayiba still has its headquarters in Pakistan.

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 203 of 259 )
anwarsad:

"I guess by extension of this logic some form of redress is needed?"

Since you are such a "sensitive and secular" asshole who has nothing but love for hindus, I am sure you understand that a Ram Temple in Ayodhya has the same standing to a hindu, as the Kabah does to a muslim. Recall how the Ramayan was a huge hit across the board, all over the country when it was aired. Clearly, somehow your sensitivity towards hindus seems to be nonexistent and a complete fake in the first place. I am open to any other theories on why shits like you cannot see the equivalence between this and the urge muslims might have to reconstruct the Kabah if a temple had been constructed over it.

vikram99 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 204 of 259 )
anwarsad,

"As usual this reasoning shows that the Hindu brigades are not interested in agreements, rappproachments etc."

you fucking moron. Have you gone thru' the proceedings of the VHP-AIBMC meetings? Go thru' it in detail and you will know who is avoiding what.

Go thru' it in detail before you barge in and puke out worthless platitudes.

And your ignorance is crossing certain acceptable limits. Hope you will not cross it.

sinbad 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 205 of 259 )
Anwarsad,

What is the significance of a cutoff point like 1947,why not 1060 when Mahmood Ghoury stabbed Prithviraj Chavan in the back?

As my own personal opinion, from what I know of Sufism, and I do not knoe enough,I will be happy to buy you a thousand fish curries and Fenys if 90% Indian Muslims created a strong SUFI identity of their own ,apart from Pakis and Bangla Deshis, assuming you become one as well.I will sleep peacefully thereafter.I doubt if such is ever possible.

sinbad 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 206 of 259 )
Anwarsad, One of the most pointed and powerful question ever to be raised on this MB was raised by the illustrious Vikramji.He asked:

What would have happened if 58 Haj Yatris were burnt alive by Hindus? The immediate reference point must have been the Nigeria frenzy and call for for snuffing out the writer.

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 207 of 259 )
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/editorial/16 79099

Thomas Friedman writes a letter urging all muslims to wage war on themselves first. Pseudo-secular shits like anwarsad must pay attention to the despicable behavior of islamic jihadi terrorists across the globe. All you "moderate" muslim assholes better rise up to the challenge or face the wrath of all the communities and religions you have a problem with...that is, you jihadi assholes have a problem with all relgions that are not ISlam. Your violent antics combined with your "global victim" complex will earn all you jihadi shits a bullet in the head. There are plenty of non muslims who go through similar or much more hardships and suffering and humiliation than you islamic shits. So quit whining and pull yourself up --- here is a hint, memorizing all the vicious, violent shit in the Quran is not going to help you.

gandalf 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 208 of 259 )
What a bunch of Jokers!, one fool who aspires to be a fortune teller, the other fool who lionized the hashsish smoking freakshow Blatavski, and a confused idiot who has a scientific bent of mind but is screwed by his loyality to the Sangh.

Jokers!

vikram99 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 209 of 259 )
We love to keep your esteemed self in good humor gandalf khan saheb! And it does'nt take much effort to make a fool (read YOU) laugh.

Now go fast and don't keep that kid galaxy waiting.

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 210 of 259 )
Gandalf:

"and a confused idiot who has a scientific bent of mind but is screwed by his loyality to the Sangh."

Says the pro-LTTE puke who wants to break India into ten different countries. Do you think I really give a shit about your brainless worthless opinions?

gandalf 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 211 of 259 )
Not 10 different countries .. India minus cowbelt = India

Cowbelt= nature reserve to showcase the ancestors of the Neanderthals

sinbad 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 212 of 259 )
Gandu,

What great respect for 70% of your countrymen, you secular humanist.There are no cows in South India?Do Hindus in South India eat beef like you do?South Indians do not pray to idols?

You really should be vaporized.

Satnam 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 213 of 259 )
Andu Sandu Pork Chops Gandu,You 8 inch midget pimp,

I just saw your post#145, anyone with a half a mind will find presence of hndreds of you bastards at that terrorist swine Imam Ali's funeral revolting. You fucking pimp, you are arguing that other 149 million plus haramkhors were not present thus they are clean.

Tell me you bhadwe, did you expect all local maderchods to be present there before a point could be proven, How many of you lying child molesters protested this act of defiance and crass exhibition in support of terrorism.

You are a contemptible hypocrite and liar.

I urge everybody to read this hideous bastards post #145, as an example in ugly but stupid cunning.

You are 8 inches tall with an IQ of 8.You contemptible hypocrite.. I seriously plan to get a large ferocious dog so that he can defecate in your lying mouth.Gandu Shitwit is welcome to be second in the line.Dogshit would be a treat to you habitual pigshit eaters.

Slimy reptile.

Satnam 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 214 of 259 )
Gandu Shitwit, the Bhadwe,

You are exibiting more and more of your bigotry and hatred through every post.

I really want to bury you in a mound of cowdung for a week to purify you.

Tathagat 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 215 of 259 )
appa DeepO bhava
Mulla Nasruddin was cutting a branch off a tree in his garden one day. While he was sawing, MMJ passed by in the street and said, "Excuse me, but if continue to saw that branch like that, you will fall down with it." He said this because Nasruddin was sitting on the shaakha... Nasruddin said nothing. He thought, "This is some foolish person who has no work to do but go around telling other people what to do and what not to do."

The man continued on his way.

Of course, after a few minutes, the branch fell and Nasruddin fell with it.

"My God!" he cried. "That man knows the future!" He ran after MMJ to ask how long he was going to live. But the man had already gone inside the JhandewaalaN chaddii/kachcha HQ... lol...

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 216 of 259 )
tathagat:

"But the man had already gone inside the JhandewaalaN chaddii/kachcha HQ... lol..."

Just stay off the drugs, you stupid marxist cretin. You are liable to make sense then.

anwarsad 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 217 of 259 )
Satnam:

Sardarji you have gone beserk again. Post number 145 points to the fact that yes that nutcase Ali's funeral was attended by some Muslims. But to use this incident to cast aspersions on all 150 million Mulims is a sign of growing dementia. If anything those 100s or 1000 people were in the wrong and no more. On top of that in our part of the world there is a great emphasis given to last rites being done accroding to one's religion no matter what you rpast behavior. Notice the ceremony in handing over the bodies of the dead infiltrators in 1999 in Kargil? But then Gadheji you are too stupid to figure that out.

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 218 of 259 )
anwarsad:

"But to use this incident to cast aspersions on all 150 million Mulims is a sign of growing dementia."

You seem to have no problem casting similar aspersions on hindus without proof, you pro-congress, pseudo-secular piece of shit. How about the fact that none of the Indian muslims have had a word to say about people in their fold indulging in anti-India activities. In fact, jihadi motherfuckers like Syed Shahabuddin are calmly blaming the hindus for the terrorism of the muslims.

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 219 of 259 )
anwarsad:

"If anything those 100s or 1000 people were in the wrong and no more."

Hindus note how this jihadi motherfucker calmy proclaims that Indian muslims sympathizing with jihadi terrorists like Imam Ali is just a "minor mistake". Also, note how this motherfucker reacts to hindu groups when they just open their mouth to express their interests. This is the deviousness of the jihadi, congresswallah motherfuckers like anwarsad and Syed Shahbuddin. DONT BELIEVE A WORD THESE MOTHERFUCKERS SPEAK. Their agenda is firmly pro-jihad, but they know all the right "secular" noises they need to make to appear reasonable to third parties. Pay back the anti-hindu hatred of these motherfuckers in the same coin.

anwarsad 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 220 of 259 )
Karpall:

You are obviously Satnam as well now.

"You seem to have no problem casting similar aspersions on hindus without proof, you pro-congress, pseudo-secular piece of shit. " When? How did I do so? Lying again asshole?

"How about the fact that none of the Indian muslims have had a word to say about people in their fold indulging in anti-India activities. In fact, jihadi motherfuckers like Syed Shahabuddin are calmly blaming the hindus for the terrorism of the muslims." There you go fruitcake once again lying through your clenched teeth. This is another claim which is so easy to prove wrong that it is laughable. The Shabana Azmi whom you all constantlyu demean and consider to be a Jihadi/"Pseudo Secular" criticized the likes of Bukahri consequently he called her a all kinds of name, just as you do. Does that prove you wrong when you say that "none of the Indian muslims have had a word to say about people in their fold indulging in anti-India activities"? You saffron clad monkeys are nothing but gutless liars. Not one of you monkeys has ever questioned another monkey on this MB about factual mistakes which suggests collusion or intellectual corruption. You all are blind assholes who are bent on fanning the flames of communal passion so hot that nothing is left unsinged in the end.

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 221 of 259 )
anwarsad:

"The Shabana Azmi whom you all constantlyu demean and consider to be a Jihadi/"Pseudo Secular" criticized the likes of Bukahri "

Praise the Lord!!! Two muslims out of 300 million spoke out against Imam Bukhari. Clearly, Bukhari's jihadi support is two less than it used to be. Praise the lord for such small mercies.

vikram99 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 222 of 259 )
Imam Bukhari: "Islamic countries have to acquire nuclear weapons" http://www.idf.il/newsite/english/1202-4.stm
The Iranian news agency, IRNA, reported that the Shahi Imam Syed Abdullah Bukhari had addressed Muslims in Delhi's (India) congregational mosque on Friday November 29, 2002, the last Friday of the Muslims holy month of Ramadan, known as international Quds day. In his sermon, Imam Bukhari said "The US, the Zionist regime [Israel], and the United Kingdom will be defeated and expelled to hell and the liberation of Palestine is as certain as the shining of the sun in the sky at midday".

Bukhari called on all Muslim countries to "be united to challenge the unholy alliance of the US and certain other Western powers against Islam". He also urged Islamic countries to acquire nuclear weapons to "become equal in power with their sworn enemies [US, UK, and Israel]", adding "We will face US and Zionist aggression and will pave the way for the liberation of first Qibla [first direction of Muslim prayer]. Believers will never be defeated or scared".

Commenting on the September 11th terrorist attacks in New York, Bukhari said that the US and other Western countries had "themselves launched terrorist movements throughout the Islamic world". He emphasized that Islam was in danger of "the satanic aspirations of the US and those Western countries that act the same as the US".

Bukhari is known to have, in the past, made pro-Taliban and pro-Osama Bin Laden statements. In his sermon, Bukhari also commented that "Indian Muslims have the same faith as the Palestinians in facing the enemies of Islam [ie. Hindus]".

vikram99 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 223 of 259 )
And this motherpucker Bukhari is still retained (and even respected) as the Imam of the no. 1 mosque in India !!!

Imagine a hindu priest or sant making such terrorist statements and being allowed by the pseudo-human media (who only lick up to islamic diaphers) to continue as head of even a Swami Narayan Temple !!!

And what is the most 'secular' act of a 'normal' muslim in India? SILENCE. And this silence is flaunted around as something qualifying for a badge of honor on secularism.

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 224 of 259 )
vikram99: Also note how the pseudo-secular motherfuckers in the media, starting with the despicable marxist shit Vinod Mehta, have studiously avoided printing this bit of news. We all know how many news inches would be allotted if some hindu made a statement supporting some international terrorist group. Even after all this, jihadi shits like anwarsad and irfan_b would like to pretend that the Shahabuddins in India are not only not popular with Indian jihadis, but that these Indian jihadis are only a small fraction of Indian muslims.

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 225 of 259 )
vikram:

"And what is the most 'secular' act of a 'normal' muslim in India? "

Silence and speaking out against "fundamentalist hindu fascism", which as we all know, is the prime evil that haunts all nations of the good earth. All those muslim jihadi shits killing innocent people all over the world --- they are not real muslims, see. Therefore, "moderate" muslims dont need to speak out against them, but they might speak out for them if they can appear moral and righteous and use the same vocabulary that marxist whore Arundhati Roy uses.

sinbad 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 226 of 259 )
Did we see our resident secular slime Anwarsad protest against this.NOOOOO!

The above speech is an open call foe sedition as India is informally allied with the UK,US and others in combating global terrorism.

Brothers notice what this pigfucked Mullah says:

He effectively told the local maderchots to be united against the alliance against Islam,the US UK alliance is avowedly against terrorists of the Taliban and Al Qaeda variety. So what this pigfucked Mullah is saying is:

"INDIAN MUSLIMS IT IS YOUR DUTY TO STAND UNITED AGAINST THE ALLIANCE BY CONTINUING TERRORIST ACTS AND SUPPORTING YOUR TERRORIST PIGS ABROAD."

India's National Interests figure here in a negative fashion in that this pigfucked Mullah is ordering the local Paapis to be united against India and Hindus as well. No pseudo secular whore or pimp has as much as reported this extraordinary outrage.

sinbad 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 227 of 259 )
Do we need more evidence of local Muslims' secularism or extra-territorial loyalties.The loyalties are to the Koran and Koran only.

CRY THE BELOVED COUNTRY!

sinbad 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 228 of 259 )
Brothers notice, how the simple act of forcible conversions has made these gutter class converts into poisonous,slimy reptiles.

It is not too late to start a Shuddhikaran movement enough now!

mumbai02 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 229 of 259 )
All the forums now discuss Hindu/Muslim and communal issues.

I thought this discussion was supposed to discuss astrology.

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 230 of 259 )
Note the absolute silence on Bukhari's traitorous statements from the pseudo-secular, pro-jihadi-muslim, anti-hindu motherfuckers in the english media.

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 231 of 259 )
mumbai02:

Dont we all agree that astrology is shit? :)

Tathagat 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 232 of 259 )
appa DeepO bhava
...yes indeed chirkin bhai...

sinbad 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 233 of 259 )
Who is this pig's asskisser Tataghat.You want to meet one of my dogs,pigsucker?

anwarsad 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 234 of 259 )
Vikram 25 short of a 100 IQ:

re:222

While Imam Bukharis is definitely a fruitcake your attempt at inciting hate is blatantly putrid as well. The Shahi Imam's post at Jama Masjid I don't believe is an elected office. It has remained in the brain-dead family for agaes. If it were an elected office then this monkey would not have been in that position this long. Guess why? For that you will have to read the next bit that has been said by one of the "Pseudo Secularists" that you hate so much and claim are always silent. See if this rings true and i will give you the reference if you want it. I did not make it up.

"A recent discussion on Indian television on the subject of ‘Muslim Identity’, invited well known Muslims, and among them, Imam Bukhari (the Head of all Sunni Muslims in India), and Shabana Azmi, a well-known screen actress and also a social activist and a member of the Rajya Sabha (the Upper House of the Indian Parliament) to participate in the debate. In the course of the discussion, Shabana Azmi asked the Imam a question to which he retorted "- "Main naachne-gaane wali tawaif ko jawaab nahin deta." (literally translated, he said "I don’t reply to singing and dancing prostitutes"). Arnab Pratim Dutta later asked Shabana how she reacted to the Imam’s comments. Shabana replied, "it does not bother me a wee bit. In fact, I feel sorry for the poor fellow. It shows him up for what he is and the kind of respect he has for women, for artistes and for those who dare to challenge him… This one statement will do him great damage, because he speaks in the name of Islam, and Islam accords the greatest respect to women. Muslims can now see through him…. men like Bukhari are the self-appointed leaders, who speak on behalf of Muslims of their own accord…. who among Muslims listens to Bukhari? I will give you an example to convince you. You see, a couple of years ago, Imam Bukhari had issued a fatwa that all Muslims must vote for a particular candidate in his own Muslim-dominated Jama Masjid area. That candidate even lost his election deposit. So much for the following he has…..- the media reported that Bukhari called for jihad. Did the media report that not a single Muslim has taken up his call? Did anyone from Delhi go on jihad? You see, the self appointed fundamentalist leaders re-enforce only the "communal" aspects of Muslim identity, using rhetoric to whip up communal frenzy…. Muslims have no moderate leadership. The moderate, on the other hand, speaks about education, employment and health. Muslims have now learnt the pitfalls of falling into the fundamentalist trap. Therefore, they do not listen to the call of the fanatics."

Bukhari's words do not play much of a role in India amongst Indian Muslims. He can declare when Id is going to be celeberated and then that is about it.

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 235 of 259 )
anwarsad:

"For that you will have to read the next bit that has been said by one of the "Pseudo Secularists" that you hate so much and claim are always silent."

Oh my god!! one moderate muslim among 300 million of them; this is definitely wonderful news. Clearly, if this is the silent majority, then we need to redefine the word "majority" (just like word "secularism" has been altered in meaning) to accomadate the fact that one muslim out of 300 million constitutes the "silent" muslim majority.

anwarsad 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 236 of 259 )
All:

I don't know which Imam Bukhar is doing what. Here is another link which contradicts this green clads latest sermons quoted by the IDF website.

http://www.hvk.org/articles/0701/1 26.html

I don't know what to believe now. I have heard of his seditious speeches in the past but I am not sure if he is trying to turn around in his ways or is he the same old same old based upon the link mentioned by Vikram 25 short of a 100 IQ above.

To be honest I am confused. It is not that difficult to believe that this green clad monkey is likely to say the things he is supposed to have said. But then it is hard to explain this other link from a Hindu website.

anwarsad 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 237 of 259 )
Karpallu:

If you look at the article the person quoted in that article is Shabana Azmi the "pseudo secularist" who you all claimed "never" speaks up against Jihadi Muslims or as Mr 25 short of a 100 IQ claims does not protest againmst Bukahri's statements. Now that you find that she does, or did, you want to change your game plan and ask me to show more such examples! Your statement, actually Vikram's were to the tune of "no pseudo secularists" speaks up against such divisive statements of Islamic religious leaders. I showed you one.

You say that it is one out of 300 Million and a minisule number. I will improve the percentage right away. It is at least 1 out of 150 million Indian Muslims. Shabana is an Indian citizen and not a Paskistani.

You still say you want more. I say I condemn Imam Bukahri's anti-India remarks. Now you have two "pseudo secularists" who are moderate in your lucid moments but usually you consider them to be Jihadi fucks who are plainly condemning the statements of Bukhari! :)

Shabana's husband Jawed is another moderate for instance but he is not a political figure so is seldom heard on such issues in our press. Our own President is another mdoerate. There are umpteen such individuals. Since they are moderate and secular they are not in charge of the place of religion where the transfer of power is from father to son and not via an election.

So when you are proven wrong, again as you often are, there you go doing your song and dance and changing the milestones that you had set initially. :) Like I said very juvenile trick and easy to see through.

anon 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 238 of 259 )
ASTROLOGY AIN'T SCIENCE Well, astrology can be called a pseudo-science. But then another pseudo science ayurveda is taught in universities so why not astrology? But please do me the favour of callng it B.V.A (Bachelor of Vedic Astrology) rather than BSc!

vikram99 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 239 of 259 )
mumbai02:

we are discussing anything that is 'useful' and that 'matters'. Like the following one (which will be vehemently denied by our marxist historians and their arse lickers who still persist with the missionary puked aryan invasion theory)

"New light on south Indian civilisation "

http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/200212 0505500100.htm

Bangalore Dec. 2. The discovery of long-forgotten underwater settlements off the coast of Mahabalipuram in Tamil Nadu by American marine archaeologists has pushed the antiquity of civilisation in South India by a few millennia and showed a link with Vedic civilisation.

This was stated here on Monday by the noted American scholar in the Vedas and Hinduism, David Frawley, while presenting a video demonstration on the underwater archaeological discoveries in the Gulf of Cambay in Gujarat and off the Mahabalipuram coast.

vikram99 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 240 of 259 )
(Post 239 continued.....)

Dr. Frawley said fishermen along the Mahabalipuram coast had been mentioning the existence of temples and other structures beneath the Bay of Bengal. It had now been corroborated by underwater videography.

He stressed the southern links of the civilisation of ancient India, and said that the Vedic civilisation was older than those of Mesopotamia and other regions held to be the most ancient by Western scholars by at least 4,000 years.

The finding of a submerged city in the Gulf of Cambay near Broach, which was perhaps as old as 7,500 BC, had pushed the seats of ancient Indian civilisation deeper into the southern peninsula.

It would be no surprise if more such sites were discovered in South India, especially in the coastal regions for the South had always played a significant if neglected role in ancient India from the Vedic times.

vikram99 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 241 of 259 )
(continuation to post 239, 240...)

The Gulf of Cambay find was only the latest in a series that included Lothal (discovered by S.R. Rao) and Dholavira (R.S. Bisht). Dr. Frawley argued that the Vedic civilisation had maritime connections like most other civilisations.

Rejecting the Aryan-Dravidian divide theory still adhered to by a section of historians, he quoted from the Rig Veda to point out that its most prominent sage, Vasistha, was the younger brother of Agasthya, the most prominent sage of South India.

The Aryans and the Dravidians were the same people. The linguistic diversity of India was not surprising as it was a country of continental proportions. There were similar diversities in Europe. Ancient India's ties with East Asia and Southeast Asia were much closer than those with Central Asia and Europe.

vikram99 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 242 of 259 )
(241 continued....)

Dr. Frawley reminded those stating that there was no evidence of the existence of horse in the Harappan civilisation, that no such evidence was available even in the land of the horse: Iran and Afghanistan.

About this, Dr. Rajaram said John Marshall, who did the pioneering excavations at Mohenjadaro and Harappa, had even provided the measurements of the Harappan horse.

In a joint statement, the two scholars said that though the people of India were living at a time of exciting discoveries, they were concerned that there appeared to be some political pressure to deny students the benefit of those findings.

vikram99 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 243 of 259 )
(242 continued.....)

An example was the discovery of the Vedic river, Saraswathi, which was one of the major triumphs of 20th century archaeology. It was an exciting story of satellite photography and archaeology working together to shed light on the Vedic tradition.

``Our children should take pride in such discoveries.

Yet we are told that vested interests in some States are directing teachers and textbook writers not to mention the Sarawathi river.''

It was a throwback to the 16th century when Galileo was told by the Church not to teach the solar system. Such anti-intellectual attitudes should have no place in education, they said.

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 244 of 259 )
vikram:

"Such anti-intellectual attitudes should have no place in education, they said."

It should be noted that the communist "intellectuals" are the ones propagating lies and spreading anti-intellectual attitudes. These communist cocksuckers live to spread lies in the name of history. Anything that goes against their much-loved Aryan Invasion theory will be ignored studiously by communist whores like Romila Thapar or communist cocksuckers like Satish Chandra and KN PAnikkar.

sinbad 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 245 of 259 )
Above messages corroborate Helena Petrowna's assertion that the Rigved is 8000 years old. She arrived at this conclusion by exhaustive analysis of Buddhist documents in Ladakh and Tibet. Note the maderchods did not get an opportunity to burn and plunder temples there so the libraries remained safe. Outstanding posts #242 -#244! Well done!!

anwarsad 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 246 of 259 )
All:

There go the monkeys again.

Let us look at who is Dr. Frawley. He is the founder of "American Institute of Vedic Studies". This by itself does not make his investigations into the origins of Hinduism in India false or incorrect but should make us demand greater evidence from him before we buy his theories wholesale.

Let us look at his supporting evidence. The discovery in the Gulf of Cambay that monkeys here posted is definitely a very interesting find but notice that Frawley says its "tentative" dating is 7500 BC. Well should not one wait till carbon dating takes place, should not one wait till archaeologist and scientists have had a chance to investigate the evidence and have given their final opinions before we revise the existing thinking about the issue? But that would make far too much sense for you saffron clad monkeys would it not?

Yeah it is easy to jump down the throats of people who support astrology and none of you monkeys seem to desist from doing it but when it comes to support of Vedantic history the gloves are off and all claims to "scientific thought process" is set aside! :) Heel monkeys, heel.

This fellow Frawley is a Doctor of what? Vedas? Medicine? How does that make him an expert in archeology? It does not.

Evidence that extends our history scientifically into antiquity is indeed a matter of great pride. But we should at least wait till the evidence has met the test of science before we proclaim it as true otherwise we will look just as foolish as the supporters of say the Shroud of Turin where carbon dating has shown that the shroud could not have been around at the time of Christ!

Might be too logical a post for you monkeys, eh?

anwarsad 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 247 of 259 )
Monkeys:

The great doctor you are quoting namely Doctor Frawley who is such an expert on archeology is just as smart as you monkeys when it comes to archaeology and history. He has a doctorate in Oriental Medicine and is the founder of Vedic Institute in America. I am dying of laughter. You monkeys are so gullible and looking so deparately for affirmation that our history is the oldest and does not involve any invasion by the Hindus that it is pitiable. By the way his background makes him as capable of finding and dating and doing unbiased analysis of his finds as it does Maulana Bukhari for instance? Not. :)

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 248 of 259 )
anwarsad:

A lot of myths are created for specific reasons, and I am glad hindus are figuring this out too. One example of such a myth is the "benevolence" of muslim invaders in India. I dont believe anyone can seriously defend archeological theories not based on scientifically rigorous carbon-14 dating. But then, this is less an issue of what is true as to what PR value such a myth can have aong hindus.

The shroud of turin might be a joke to you and me, but the christians still swear by it, and their dogma on this front is another factor that keeps them cohesive.

sinbad 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 249 of 259 )
AS, Let us do the carbon dating of the Tejo Mahalaya(popularly miscalled Taj Mahal) and Kutub Minar.You may be shocked.

Both are extraordinary feats of architecture, engineering and very advanced chemistry(rustless iron). Don't tell me mongol murderers and rapists were capable of these wonders.Their specialty was to destroy, loot, rape and plunder.

sinbad 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 250 of 259 )
AS, Let us do the carbon dating of the Tejo Mahalaya(popularly miscalled Taj Mahal) and Kutub Minar.You may be shocked.

Both are extraordinary feats of architecture, engineering and very advanced chemistry(rustless iron). Don't tell me mongol murderers and rapists were capable of these wonders.Their specialty was to destroy, loot, rape and plunder.

mumbai02 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 251 of 259 )
Sinbad #250:

"Let us do the carbon dating of the Tejo Mahalaya(popularly miscalled Taj Mahal) and Kutub Minar.You may be shocked.

Both are extraordinary feats of architecture, engineering and very advanced chemistry(rustless iron). Don't tell me mongol murderers and rapists were capable of these wonders.Their specialty was to destroy, loot, rape and plunder."

Do you have any explanations for the arabic inlays and carvings on the Taj Mahal ? Which previous king might have built these monuments if as you claim these are now attributed to the wrong people ? When did the 'real' builder live and what are some of his other buildings ? What about other bldgs like Fatehpur Sikri, or Red Fort or Humayun's tomb ? What about some of the magnificent mosques in Istanbul; were these also really built by Hindu kings since "Mongol murderers and rapists were incapable of these wonders" ?

sinbad 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 252 of 259 )
The Arabic carvings and inlays are among the easiest things to do, they were in all likelihood superimposed on the existing structure.

Fatehpur Sikri is built in traditional Rajput style,have you seen it? Maharani Jodhabai was and remained a Rajput throuhout and was one of the important influences on Akbar and her son ,bewda Salim ,in their being secular.

There is nothing about Red Fort that makes it an architectural wonder. It was probably built by Hindu engineers anyway.

Karapall 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 253 of 259 )
It is nice to see how the muslim cocksuckers react when their history is denied and Tejo Mahalaya (that is a good one :-)) is made into a hindu monument, just like the muslim motherfuckers have done in Ayodhya, Mathura and elsewhere and would like those monuments as reminder to these jihadi cocksuckers as to why islam is great and why hinduism is weak.

vikram99 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 254 of 259 )
mumbai02,

For a BBC background link on the Taj controversy: http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A5220

For analysis by Marvin Mills: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/3440/tajm.h tml

For a link to the Bhat/Athawale paper (in which you will find the relevant Fergusson quotes): http://www.ece.lsu.edu/kak/taj.pdf

These are some links/research to debunk that Taj Mahal is an islamic construction. And please bear in mind that none of these characters have anything to do with RSS/VHP etc., In fact, Advani (the saffron king to the secularists) still goes around proclaiming that Taj Mahal is built by Shah Jahan.

vikram99 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 255 of 259 )
The most thorough history of the controversy is by the historians P.S. Bhat and A.L. Athawale in their paper "The question of the Taj Mahal," a link to which is provided at the end of the column. Here are three views:

1. Shah Jahan built the monument from scratch (the Standard View).

2. Shahjahan only modified an earlier palace owned by Jai Singh to serve as the mausoleum for his queen, Mumtaz (Lahori-Fergusson-Latif [LFL] View).

3. The monument was originally a temple (P.N. Oak View).

The Standard View is widely described in textbooks.

The Second View has a very old history, going back to Shahjahan himself. In his Shahjahannama, it is mentioned that he acquired the property of Raja Jai Singh for the burial, compensating him with another piece of property with a building on it. A similar account is to be found in the Badshahnama of Mulla Abdul Hamil Lahori, an important court document of the reign of Shahjahan. The LFL view may be further subdivided into special cases depending on the extent to which the original building was modified. Bhat and Athawale suggest that the marble superstructure upon the red-stone terrace was erected by Shahjahan.

In addition to the LHL mention, several technical points are made to argue for a prior origin. For example, the arrangement of the domes, the lotus canopy, the trident pinnacle, the 22 rooms in the building, the wrong direction of the mosque (about 15 degrees off Mecca) and its triple domes, the goshala, the nagarkhanas, and the details of the design are mentioned by Bhat/Athawale to indicate that it was an older building. The offset from Mecca is considered a very significant piece of evidence since there is no such error in other mosques of the period.

vikram99 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 256 of 259 )
(message 255 continued...)

The fact that the architecture of the Taj is different from the buildings erected by his Mughal predecessors was noted by James Fergusson, the pioneering historian of Indian architecture in his History of Indian and Eastern Architecture: "It would be difficult to point out in the whole history of architecture any change so sudden as that which took place between the style of Akbar and his grandson Shah Jahan -- nor any contrast so great as that between the manly vigour and exuberant originality of the first, as compared with the extreme but almost effeminate elegance of the second. Certainly, when the same people, following the same religion, built temples and palaces in the same locality, nothing of the sort ever occurred in any country whose history is known to us."

Although Fergusson attributed the design of the complex as we see it to Shahjahan, he also mentioned clearly his belief that the complex had earlier served as a palace: "When used as a Barahdari, or pleasure palace, it must always have been the coolest and loveliest of garden retreats, and now that it is sacred to the dead it is the most graceful and the most impressive of the sepulchres of the world." This view of Fergusson found mention in the Encyclopaedia Britannica entries on the Taj from 1875 onwards until the 11th edition in 1910. In 1896, Syed Muhammad Latif's book on Agra mentioned that the building "was originally a palace of Raja Man Singh but now it was the property of his grandson Raja Jai Singh. His Majesty (Shahjahan) gave the Raja a lofty edifice from the Khalsa estate in exchange of this building and the spot was used for the mausoleum of the deceased empress."

The architectural historian, Marvin Mills of the Pratt Institute in New York had a piece of wood from a door in the north facade of the Taj carbon-dated. When tested at the Brooklyn College Radiocarbon Laboratory, the date came to 1359 AD, about three hundred years earlier than Shahjahan's time.

If the Taj was erected before Shahjahan's time as a pleasure palace, then the number of rooms may be connected to the twenty-two shrutis (subnotes) of the octave of Indian music.

vikram99 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 257 of 259 )
The Oak research hinges on the view that the name Taj Mahal is from the Tejo Mahalaya, the name of the legendary Shiva temple of Agra. Oak argues that one cannot see how the name Mumtaz could have become Taj and that a tomb is never called Mahal, a palace.

For more on this view, check out:

http://www.stephen-knapp.com/was_the_t aj_mahal_a_vedic_temple.htm

vikram99 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 258 of 259 )
TAJ MAHAL AND THE GREAT BRITISH CONSPIRACY

http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/mode rn/godbole_taj1.html

Also check out - http://www.mantra.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/tejo.ht ml

sinbad 8/25/2001 5:38:49 PM ( 259 of 259 )
Vikram,

Outstanding work. I had read P n Oak's book long ago, but the details I had forgotten.

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