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Caste As Racism? Free Speech Host 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM Professor Kancha Ilaiah argues that the situation of the Dalit-Bahujan masses is similar to that of a black and beautiful buffalo that gives more milk—white milk at that—than the cows of India, but has no sacred status in civil society and no legal protection in the Constitution. That all the intellectuals of India seem afraid that a proposal for discussing the question of caste at a UN forum might make it into global issue. What do you think? The Buffalo's Unholy Milk |
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Tathagat 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 1 of 54 ) appa DeepO bhava ...all the intellectuals of India are shit scared that a proposal for discussing the question of caste at a UN forum will not just make it into a global issue, but ridicule India right on its phase... make look Indians... including those who think themselves as cows... look ugly n the malichch'a of them all... of the worst kind... lol... tathagat object to Outlook spreading n perpetuating lies... Arun Venugopal in Galbraith interview saying Hindus are 80 per cent... It can't be true...!!! is it? Outlook need to clarify... The State of Dalit Mobilization: An Interview with Kancha Ilaiah :- The Earthy Pundit : His search for a caring Hindu god resulted in rejection. Now Kancha Ilaiah wants his revenge... Profile by SAGARIKA GHOSE in Outlook :- Here he talks to Yoginder Sikand at Ambedkarland about how `Dalitisationż alone can effectively challenge the threat of Brahminical fascism parading in the garb of Hindutva. |
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Prem 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 2 of 54 ) Prem Naam Hai Mera, Not Chopra. Tathagat, I am surprised that I find myself agreeing with you. Watching NDTV where this magazine's only editor with his head screwed on right also made some interesting points. Although I earlier thought that Prof Kancha Ilaiah protesteth too much, it was revelatory to find that the elite crowd which NDTV manages to collect each time, which was sought to be passed off as fully representative of Delhi's metropolitan reality, did not have even a single dalit. I would actually have been interested to know how many OBCs were there too. In any case, coming to the point, I do think that we Indians who speak up and are able to articulate ourselves are only a tiny, miniscule minority who's privileged and knows the colonial language English. Not surprising therefore to find this elite minority shuddering at the thought of the true reality of their country being discussed and debated in an international forum like the USA. Caste lives OK and by shutting our urban eyes to it is not going to make it go away. But I do object to appropriation of the term 'intellectual' for this tiny English speaking colonial mindset. Is Kancha Ilaiah not an intellectual? Isn't Ashish Nandi? We should not be afraid of anything being discussed anywhere, that is the whole essence of Free Speech. If we have a case, let's not be ashamed or scared of talking about it. |
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nagarajk 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 3 of 54 ) first let me make certain points clear: 1. mr.kancha illaih definetly makes some very valid points: dalits have been opressed and caste is definetly a major human rights issue in india. 2. perhaps, caste should be discussed at the U.N. the only reason imn using the word "perhaps" is because i sometime think that the u.n and all this concern in the west for human rights is just new tools of western domination. at the same time, we can learn a lot from the west in the sphere of human rights and some western activists are genuinely concerned. But mr. illaih makes many absurd remarks about hinudism (in his articles and more specifically his book. yes i have read and it and it was educative though i do not agree with many portions): sure, hindu gods carry weapons, but i dont know where he gets the idea that hinduism says "kill all your enemies" etc (he can quote the gita etc but perhaps he needs to be taught the gita instead of interpreting it to make some of his absurd points sound valid). gandhi (obviously he will be dismissed as a "bania", since these leftist intellectuals believe eone is against them)used the very same gita (and yes, with the same "violent" krishna) to spread his message of peace. The equivalent of what mr. illaih is saying is similar to when a muslim fanatic (or an ignorant observer) belives that the islamic concept of jihad is only about killing all your enemies. in case you thought so too, you need to go back and read better books/websites! mr. illaih states that hinduism is the only religion that glorifies violence:the prophet muhammad, the model for all muslims, fought wars and killed people: does that mean he was a war-monger and all muslims attempt to emulate a murderer?the answer is obviously no, but an ignorant fool can make such an arguement.or a fundamentalist hindu can say that all muslims are enemies of hinduism or a christian can believe the only way to redemption is through christ and everyone else is going to burn in hell. what is the difference between these "religious fundamentalists" and people like illaih? |
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nagarajk 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 4 of 54 ) does he think that just because he comes from an oppressed section he has the right to make such irresponsible statements?sure he can think so but a reminder:go to any fundamentalist website (hindu, muslim, christian etc..) and the articles (and authors) make outrageous statements and conveniently justify them by saying that their community has been oppressed for 1000's... of years and its time to fight back.so who is right in the end?everyone and no one. the truth is eone can complain and cry but nothing is going to be achieved. what is needed is action: this is exactly what illaih says, but unfortuantely his actions will not have a net positive effect. no one is disputing that dalits can make good leaders or doctors but if mr. illaih's recommendations are followed they will make the most lousy and unqualified professionals. he suggests that all "dalit collectors should give all jobs to dalits". instead he could have suggested schools for dalits with top notch funding and teachers. but no, he wants the dalits to grab everything and alienate everyone else. he believes in alliances with muslims and christians and sikhs forgetting that various divisions (sects, denominations, and oh my god surprise! caste!!) exists in each and eone of these communities in india. and what about the divisions within dalit society? as an "evil" upper caste hindu, should i not think that all "dalits" are the same? but no: dont they have their own subdivisions and conflicts?dont dalits and other OBC's indulge in violnet caste wars? where are the "evil brahaminist" forces in this picture?a small recurring example of a violence is between the vanniyars (OBC's in Tamil Nadu) and dalits in Tamil Nadu. and why isnt mr.illaih a little more harsh on the "upstanding" dalit leaders such as mayawati and kanshi ram and mr.paswan?have their records been outstanding?what have they done for their own communities besides announcing more govenrment sops (which are only on paper) and installing statues of ambedhkar (a dalit form of idolotary: obviously not, cos only upper caste hindus indulge in that: am referring to his book in case you are wondering what imn talking about). and what about the great "rationalists" of tamil nadu?the aiadmk is led by a corrupt brahmin lady while the great periyar-following dmk is in alliance with the "brahminical" BJP. any justifications for this other than the great reason of maran being a cabinet minister? for those of you who have had the patience to read this, i hope i have made some sense: yes, upper caste oppression does exist and dalits are marginalized but the answer does not lie in illaih's solution of radical chane cos that will be similar to all other leftist/marxist movements (the reason i use this term is because mr.illiah claims his book is a marxist critique of hinduism) the world over: a HUGE failure (take a look at the world around you) an alternative can and must be found. |
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rav666 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 5 of 54 ) In that same NDTV show that Prem mentions, one gentleman even ventured to question the 'discrimination' against upper castes. If one takes a look at the 'white collar workforce' of today's corporates it becomes obvious as to who's getting benefitted the most. I guess it's time our corporates initiated measures such as 'equal opportunity employment', 'diversity in workforce' etc. to ensure that all segments of the society are well represented. This a practice widely followed by even the MNCs in US, in case it sounds ridiculous. And if the govt could award such cos. by giving purchase preferences, we could see such measures getting really implemented(for, which corporate doesnt want govt. contracts?) For starters, will the torch-bearers such as NDTV / STAR TV and Outlook publish statistics on the no. of Dalits in their workforce? |
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Cleo 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 6 of 54 ) We deeply appreciate the views expressed by Prem on the need for openness and debate .. for in this is our hope of exercising informed choices. We agree with rav ..For us who have lived in metros some time in our life...it is incredible to see how the impoverishment and marginalisation of the Dalits and Tribals continues unabated in the name of globalisation and progress. The number of landless labourers and small artisans driven to the big cities for a square meal..ill equipped to face up to the challenges of an english speaking business group... to find employment... to give a life of dignity for thier women and their little ones..is a scourge on Indian metro culture... and cannot leave anyone of us un-impacted ! The tribals living in harmony and interdependence with the forests dishoused by massive projects.. left to fend for themselves in mushrooming slums... with no support or intervention from an indifferent government have in their ..migration to the cities .. breathed life into the seeds of impending disaster. The slums are growing and they are not only symbols of a callous and corrupt administration but of a shallow self centred and demanding middle class. From out of these Slums and the marginalised in the country side will the battle lines at the hustings be drawn and soon decided upon . We will have only ourselves to blame as status quoists..for this silence is deafening..AND we believe this silence is not the silence of the lambs..! if we do not debate and attempt to undo through the democratic process of dialogue ... and debate... and affirmative action which is decisive .. the inexorable drift towards anarchy and breakdown of systems will be our just deserts .. if the hustings do not propel the status quoists Governments of the day towards decisive action! |
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ssss 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 7 of 54 ) Racism happens when humans are different like black/white,rich poor,caste difference etc.Humans have egos,fear,greed,jealousies etc and creator makes people different.White thinks/looks he is superior to black,beauty to ugly,rich to poor that is how world is made.Appearances outer are also important.Racism has forms like on colour,money,caste,gender,religion,liking,networking etc and will stay till outer appearances of some are superior to others or till humans become perfect in emotions/intelligence,both not possible.But what most philosphers say in every society,to society in reality it is actions of a person which are more important but to human eye outer appearances are what is seen and actions can be manipulated and not easily seen or understood by humans. So casteism of India is practised at global scale as racism in developed countries,and is same local phenomenon like colour/money racism.Nothing to fear if discussed abroad. |
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Tathagat 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 8 of 54 ) appa DeepO bhava On the Eve of the UN conference on Racial equality and other human rights... tathgat needs to remind us all of Buddha's courage (but he wasn't fair to women though, the born dalit) ...2500 years on, we still look n sound barbarians... decieving ourselves... believing as if we have become civilized... Once At jetavana, in Kinfdom Kosala... where king Pasendi was a regulor shravak for Buddha's weekly sermons... while Buddha n the bhikku companions ventured into neighboring villages... one day Buddha noticed a man called Sunita (suneet?) carrying nightsoil... leaving the way for Buddha. Buddha followed him as Sunit'a tries to maintain safe distance... Buddha asked him ' my friend, pl come closer so we may talk.' Sunita protested... both his palms together still... 'Lord, i don't dare'. 'Why not' asked Buddha... ' I am untouchable... don't want to pollute u n ur monks ' replied Sunita. Buddha replied... 'in our path we no longer distinguish between castes. U r a human being like the rest of us. We r not afraid we will be polluted. Only greed, hatred, and delusion can pollute us. A person as pleasent as urself brings us nothing but happiness... Buddha ask his name... ask him to become a bhikku... like the rest of us? 'I couldn't!' Why not?' I am untouchable, Lord'... 'I have already explained that on our path there is no caste. In the way of awakening, castes no longer exist, it is like ganga, Yamuno, Aciravati, Sarabhu, Mahi, and Rohini riviers. Once they empty into the sea, they no longer retain their separate identities... Sunit'a could hardly believe his ears... he said... no one has ever spoken so kindly to me before... this is the happiest day of my life. If u accept me as ur disciple, i vow to devote all my being to practice ur teachings." ... cont. |
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Tathagat 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 9 of 54 ) appa DeepO bhava Buddha handed his begging bowl to Meghiya and reached his hand out to Sunita. He said 'Sariputta'! help me bathe Sunita... we will ordain him a bhikku right here... right now. News quickly spread causing a furor... many condemned the Buddha for violating sacred tradition. others went so far as to suggest that the Buddha was plotting to overthow the existing order and wreck havoc in the country. Senior disciples and fellow Bhikkus... Sariputta, Mahakassapa, Mahamoggallana, and Anuruddha met to discuss the people's outrage with the Buddha. Buddha said 'accepting untouchables into the sangha was simply a question of time. Our way is the way of equality. though we may encounter difficulties over Sunita's ordination now, we will have opened a door for the first time in history that future generation will thank us for. We must have courage.' Moggallana said, 'We do not lack courage or endurance. But how can we help reduce the hostlity of public opinion to make it easier for bhikkus to practice?.' Sariputta said, 'The important thing is to remain trusting of our practice. I will strive to assist Sunita in making progress on the path. His success will be strong argument in our favour. We can also seek ways to explain our belief in equality to the people. What do ya think master?' The Buddha placed his hand on Sariputtas's shoulder, 'u have just spoken my thoughts' he said. King Pasenadi visited Jetavana... a groupe of religious leaders had already met him... he saw Sunita teaching... on his way. Buddha greeted the king outside his 'gandhkuti' offered him a bamboo chair... impressed with Sunita... he asked Buddha about the teaching monk in the way... Buddha told him his story... king admitted his purpose of visit... said ' Master ur teaching is deep n understang. I have never met any other spiritual teacher with so open a heart and mind. I had come to question ur ordaining an untouchable ... but i have seen, heard, and understood why. I no longer dare ask such question. Instead, allow me to prostrate myself before u.' ...Buddha stood up as well, an took the kings hand instead... asked him to be seated again... Buddha looked at the king and said ' Majesty, in the way of liberation, there is no caste. To the eyes of an enlightened person, all people are equal. every person's blood is red. Every person's tears are salty. We are ALL human beings. We must find a way for all people to be able to realize their full dignity and potential. That is why I have welcomed Sunita into the sangha of bhikkhus.' chapter 43, Old Path White Clouds by THICH NHAT HANH |
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Ambalika 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 10 of 54 ) Bhante, please do not paint Buddha against women. in a society which considered male children to be more desirable than female ones, the Buddha held a different view. When King Pasenadi of Kosala, while still an adherent of the Brahmanical religion and thus shared its values, was disappointed that his Queen Mallika bore him a daughter, the Buddha told him: "A woman-child, 0 Lord of men, may prove to be a better offspring than a male" (San. Nik, iii, 2, 6). It is possible to see in this a kind of diplomatic response to prevent the King developing an aversion to his Queen who was a Buddhist, but the sentiment expressed is genuine, and in keeping with the rest of the Buddha's teaching. The position of women under Hinduism is well-known. Some idea of this position could be gleaned from the classic Hindu Dharmashâstras of which the Manu-smirthi, popularly knows as the "Laws of Manu", is the best known. This work describes the duties of women as follows" "By a girl, by a young woman, or even by an aged one, nothing must be done independently, even in her own house. In childhood a female must be subject to her father, in youth to her husband, when her lord is dead to her sons; a woman must never be independent". (Laws of Manu, V, 147-8). While the attitude of the Buddha to the role of women was an enlightened one, even when judged by the standards of the modern age, it must not be thought that everything that is said on this subject in Buddhist writing, even in the Pali Canon itself, measures up to the high standard expected of a Buddha. There are many explanations for this, not least of which is the fact that most of these works were written down several centuries after the Parinibbâna of the Buddha, and that during this time the teachings were sustained by monks, some of whom might not have been entirely free from the prejudices of the age. It is interesting to note that such "backsliding" occurs most commonly in the later works, e.g. in the prose sections of the Jataka (which incidentally are non-Canonical). And popular Buddhism took liberties of its own with this aspect of Buddhist teaching as it did with several others. The Place of Women in Buddhism: A Talk given to the Midlands Buddhist Society (UK) on Sanghamittâ Day 1988 :- |
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Prem 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 11 of 54 ) Prem Naam Hai Mera, Not Chopra. Mahatma Gandhi, had said in a speech to the AICC in Bombay way back in July 1946: "Our sins have a strange way of coming home to roost. We turned a portion of ourselves into pariahs and today the whites of South Africa are doing the same to our compatriots there." The old man had no moral compunction in comparing caste discrimination in India to apartheid in South Africa. He did not say that caste discrimination was different from racial discrimination — simply because he was convinced that its consequence and its effect were the same. Secondly, in 1968, India signed and ratified the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (1965). This Convention came into force in January 1969, with racial discrimination being defined to include discrimination based on descent. Ever since 1968, when speaking against apartheid in South Africa, representatives of the Government of India always relied on the provisions of the Convention. But now we seem to have forgotten it when apartheid is legally abolished. THE Government of India is opposed to ‘‘caste discrimination’’ being placed on the agenda of the UN Conference on Racism and Intolerance to be held in Durban later this month. It believes we should not air our ‘‘internal problems’’ at international conferences. Actually, the GoI's squeamishness seems to be about the ugly underbelly of our great Hinduism getting exposed and wide exposure in international media... In order to monitor and review actions taken by states to fulfill their obligations, the 1965 Convention has established a Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (CERD) — the first body created by the United Nations to monitor the implementation by states of a human rights treaty. There is nothing wrong or anti-national in accepting the verdict of a body which is outside this country, specially in respect of international obligations to which we have voluntarily submitted. There is another even more basic reason why we should not resist caste discrimination being placed on the Agenda at the Durban Conference — because it has a counter-productive effect; it gives the impression that we have something to hide. I submit we have not. |
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rav666 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 12 of 54 ) On this subject, I would like to place on record the social reforms of Sri Ramanuja(1017 - 1137 AD) - the most respected Acharya of the Vaishnovaites. It is said that he initiated many untouchables (as in, made them Brahmins) - an act repeated several centuries later by Subramania Bharati, the patriotic Tamil poet. And, just as 'backsliding' occured elsewhere, it occured in the case of subsequent Hindu thought as well, from the enlightened position of Sri Ramanuja. As regards the position of women under the brahminical religion (as against the religion of bhikkus), the phenomenon of worship of Durga / Kali doesn't have to be elaborated, as well as the prominence accorded to Lakshmi and Saraswati. Well, if it is about theory vs. practise, I'm not too impressed as well about the non-violent ways of our friends in Sri Lanka, which is a hell of a 'backslide' from the position of the Great Gautama. |
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Tathagat 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 13 of 54 ) appa DeepO bhava Speak Speak, your lips are free. Speak, it is your own tongue. Speak, it is your own body. Speak, your life is still yours. See how in the blacksmith's shop The flame burns wild, the iron glows red; The locks open their jaws, And every chain begins to break. Speak, this brief hour is long enough Before the death of body and tongue: Speak, 'cause the truth is not dead yet, Speak, speak, whatever you must speak. *** bol ki lab aazaad heiN tere bol zabaaN ab tak terii hai teraa sutawaaN jism hai teraa bol ki jaaN ab tak terii hai dekh ke aahangar kii dukaaN meiN tund heiN shole surKh hai aahan khulane lage quffaloN ke dahaane phailaa har ek zanjiir kaa daaman bol ye thoRaa waqt bohat hai jism-o-zubaaN kii maut se pahale bol ki sach zindaa hai ab tak bol jo kuchh kahane hai kah le Faiz [sutawaaN=well built; aahangar=blacksmith; tund=sharp (here it means bright);] [aahan=iron; quffaloN ke dahaane=keyhole] |
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thetruth 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 14 of 54 ) kancha illaih had made lots of irresponsible remarks against hinduism . muhammed himself took part in lots of battles . i dare kancha illaih to call muhammed a war-monger criminal . kanch illaih will not do that for the well-known reasons . a scholar like him very well dismis the SANSKRIT LANGUAGE as a dead language , KALIDASA as a third-rated poet . Illaiah was talking about a upcoming civil-war in Star News channel . If a civil war breaks out in India , ILLAIH will be most probably the happiest person . We have a habit of blaming everything on others . If we have to shine , we have to put effort . Every failure cannot be blame on others . Look for ST/SC students in the prestgious institution like the IITs . To be frank , they are just hopeless . Ilaaih was saying merit cannot be measured from the marks secured in exams and that is why India is without a Newton till now . May be Illaih is thinking WOULD-BE INDIAN NEWTONs CANNOT CLEAR IIT JEE or other ENTRANCE TESTS and they need reservations . In the government or semi-government job markets ST/SCs are the most privileged castes . Why don't we go for absolute equality , let us treat all indian as equals and let there should not be an reservation in the name of religion , caste etc . caste problem is crippling hindu society . we must do away with this . and we must stop saying lower cate , upper caste things . all are equal . |
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rav666 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 15 of 54 ) I'd just react on the 'hopelessness' of the SC/ST students in IITs. We have made them clean our toilets for 1000s of years. So they can't become brilliant rocket scientists overnight (I'm not ruling out that possibility however). Even to this day, their tea is served in a different set of glasses. They don't have a place among the elite despite their literacy levels (An SC/ST remains an SC/ST even if he/she goes to IIT). You can go for absolute equality for everyone if the ground rules remain the same for everyone (as in, if no one's sister or mother gets raped / paraded nude by the upper caste landlords/police and if no one is forced to eat shit and if everyone is treated equal in places of worship such as temples). As long as such a level playing field doesn't exist, the differences need to be compensated for by making special concessions that would give the under-privileged a chance to survive. |
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thetruth 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 16 of 54 ) if all the so called higher caste people r raping/parading nude the women from so called lower castes ??? I will only say the people ... who rape any women , make some women paraded nude , .... are worst criminals . those criminals deserves to be hanged or burnt alive and it doesn't matter which caste they belong . |
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Tathagat 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 17 of 54 ) appa DeepO bhava ...At a media briefing today (Tuesday, August 28), three South African officials of the organizing secretariat of the NGO Forum heard an earful of complaints and specialized pleadings from NGO delegates. The pleadings included those from advocates of eliminating the caste system in India... Racism is a disease that deteriorates peoples' self worth and self esteem. We are all created equal with special gifts and if we reach out to each other in sharing these gifts, we all become richer. -Roy Henry Vickers, Artist Against Racism. the idea that "We are the chosen people of God." Once you have the idea that you are the chosen people of God, then you cannot be forgiven by others because they are also the chosen people of God, and how to decide it? No argument can be conclusive, and nobody knows where God is hiding so you cannot ask him either; he cannot be brought in the court to be a witness. Then only the sword is going to decide. Whosoever is mighty is going to be right. Might has been right. Jews really suffered for centuries, but the suffering has not changed them. In fact it has strengthened the idea that they are the chosen people of God. The same people who tell them, "You are the chosen people," also tell them that the chosen people have to go through many tests, many fires to prove their mettle. But this is not only so with the Christians, Jews, Muslims and Hindus; it is exactly the same with all the people that have existed up to now. The racial ego, the religious ego, the spiritual ego is far more dangerous than the individual ego, because the individual ego is gross. You can see it -- everybody can see it, it is so visible on the surface. But when the ego becomes racial -- "Hinduism is great" -- you don't think you are claiming anything for yourself. Indirectly you are claiming, "I am great because I am a Hindu, and Hinduism is great." This is an indirect way, a subtle, cunning way: "I am great because I am a Japanese, because Japanese are the direct descendants of the sun God"; or, "I am a Chinese and the Chinese are the most civilized people, the most cultured." Only one thing new is happening, and that is a blessing, not a curse at all. For the first time in the whole history of humanity, a few people are becoming aware that the way we have existed up to now is somehow wrong; something basically is missing in our very foundation. Carf - Campaign against Racism & Fascism |
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sober 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 18 of 54 ) The dirty elements are not just against the lower castes, THEY ARE AGAINST THE UPPER CASTES AS WELL. Why punish the whole society just because a few of them are idiots ? As for washing toilets (ref rav666), we all do it in our homes and there's no shame about it. Let the government increase the salaries of the labour class, I guess more so called upper castes will join in. Suppressing one society to let the other advance is no sensible way to improve the situation. |
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Tathagat 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 19 of 54 ) appa DeepO bhava Human Rights Report Urges U.N. Racism Conference To Include Mention Of Global Caste Discrimination "'Untouchables' may not cross the line dividing their part of the village from that occupied by higher castes," says a Human Rights Watch report released today in Durban, South Africa, (Wednesday, August 29, 2001) at the NGO Forum that precedes the U.N. World Conference Against Racism (WCAR). "They may not use the same wells, visit the same temples, or drink from the same cups in tea stalls. Dalit children are frequently made to sit at the back of classrooms. In what has been called India's 'hidden apartheid,' entire villages in many Indian states remain completely segregated by caste." The plight of India's "untouchables" has been generally known for many years. Now their deplorable situation seems to be gaining greater international attention. |
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sober 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 20 of 54 ) I fully appreciate your message and we - the litrate the community of India - are all very deeply concerned about the same. I'm sure there's already numerous laws against it - the affected people need to be given proper information and the law enforcement needs to be very strict. |
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thetruth 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 21 of 54 ) how many lower castes people are there in indian cricket team ??? does KANCHA ILLIAH know it ?? ILLAIAH should make the demand " 50 % players of indian cricket team should be from the STs , 10% from the religious minorities , 20 % from the SCs and the remaining for the generals . Moreover the vice captain should be from more backward clAsses ,captain should be from the most backward classes " . Again look into the international sports scene . Countries like india , pakistan are denied everything . All the GOLD medals are taken by countries like USA , RUSSIA , CHINA etc . Only one bronze medal was given to ONE BILLION INDIANS in the last olympic , this is the worst kind of oppresion . ILLIAH , the great thinker of 21st century , should think of it seriously . He should demand for "50% GOLD, 75% SILVER AND 90% BRONZE MESDALS IN OLYMPIC SHOULD BE RESERVED FOR THE DEVELOPING AND UN-DEVELOPED COUNTRIES " . ILLIAH should raise the demand in the UN . |
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rav666 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 22 of 54 ) There is a difference between the desire for a shining medal and the hunger for the next meal. The real percentage question is, for every 9 brahmins who are assured of the next meal, is there one Dalit who is in a similar position? (I have nothing against brahmins, and I myself am one - a proud one at that, hailing from the same community as Sri Ramanuja & Subramania Bharati mentioned in my previous post) However, using your own example (USA / Russia / China etc.), these countries produce the best atheletes because the discrimination is the least and there is a level playing field leading to healthy competition. "Equal Opportunities" is the political mantra in the US (and it took a Jesse Owens of USA to shatter Hitler's myth about 'Aryan supremacy'), and as regards Russia & China, people have been 'programmed' to believe that everyone is equal thanks to the communist ideology (unlike India where we have been 'programmed' to discriminate by our tradition, parents, and grand-parents). About sober's argument that there's no shame in cleaning toilets - point well taken. However, your next statement that the upper castes will also get into it if salaries are raised betrays your stand. So, the Dalits deserve no such choice? Why should they be confined to that professsion DESPITE the low salary? Isnt that because of lack of other opportunities (a.k.a discrimination)? |
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Cleo 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 23 of 54 ) Fully agree and support rav's views. We do ardently hope that mother India has more sons and daughters like him ! The first question is as of today are all Indians equal ? There cannot be two honest answers to this question ! The answer is NO!!!!!!. For a vast section of Dalits, tribals and minorities, living on the fringes of our globalised marketplace, they ARE NOT in a position to get a square meal a day ! To expect them to win medals, or to compete in intellectual activity and rigour, when body and soul is together INSPITE OF A CALLOUS SOCIAL ORDER is an extremely cynical position to take and is out of touch with reality ! We are brahmins who live in the hill districts having had enough of the 'equality' of the metros. Having seen rural and urban India from close quarters one cannot fail to observe..the overwhelming percentage of our dalits, tribals and minorities living in the rural areas and in the urban slums , do not have running water, no clothes to keep them warm (forget about human dignity),no proper roof over their heads to keep away the cold (forget about dignity for their women) cannot afford a light bulb to study at night,have no family connections to get them jobs,are not equipped for a globalised economy (do not speak english, do not know how to travel and live in big cities), and we expect them to compete in the IIT's in the job market???? HOW MUCH MORE CALLOUS CAN WE GET ? To have genuine equality in a society which is the worst aggressor of its impoverished majority , is utopian and status quoist. To bundle together all sections of society.. announce a cut off date and expect from then on competition and the survival in the jungle called 'free market'(policed by brigands and white collared criminals) and call it equality is a cruel joke and a pathos which only affirmative action can alter. We have to answer for our choices. Ardently hope that the choices keep us united rather than fuel strife ! |
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Tathagat 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 24 of 54 ) appa DeepO bhava ... shame on u America, Israel, Switzerland, India and Australia. tathagat observes ur lack of compassion, of which U got to pay heavy price in due course... ur own deeds creates heaven n hell for urselves... ... In these declarations they emphasized the fact again and again that you should love all human beings; you are all brothers. But have you ever seen brothers being in love? Have you ever seen brothers being friends? The way brothers fight, nobody fights. And just saying, "You are brothers," does not make it a reality. These people who declared these human rights -- what authority have they got? Who are they? Politicans... and they are the cause of all the wars, they are the cause of all kinds of violence happening all over the world. These are the people who have kept almost half of humanity -- womankind -- in a state of slavery. But looking at the declaration tathagat had really a great time... because it does not talk about sisters, only brothers. Sisters don't count -- yet they are half of humanity. They are not even mentioned. These politicians are articulate, clever, cunning... mostly coming from the legal profession. They are saying there should be no discrimination between man and woman, between black and white. Between races, religions, political ideologies, there should be no discrimination. And who is making the discrimination? These are the same people who are making the declaration. They have enslaved the woman for centuries, and they are not yet willing to give her freedom -- which, according to their declaration, is a basic human right. The blacks are being treated as animals. Just at the end of the last century, the blacks were still be sold, auctioned in marketplaces like a commodity. And even today, they are not respected as the white people are respected. And these are the white people -- all these politicians are white. These white people have been driving the whole of humanity, for three hundred years, into slavery. They all had their empires. England had the biggest empire; it was said that the sun never set in the British Empire. Somewhere or other in the British Empire the sun was shining and it was day -- all around the earth. But other white people were not far behind: the French, the Portugese, the Spanish -- they all had vast empires, exploiting the whole earth. They have been the parasites: and it is hilarious that all these parasites are now declaring human rights. This is a deception. It is not meant; what they are saying they don't mean. It is just to give you an idea that you are equal to everybody, you are a brother to everybody, that you have all the human rights. But we all know -- all these human rights are just hypocrisies. ... In the introduction to this declaration it says, We are determined to eliminate all forms of intolerance and of discrimination based on religion or belief. And this is not true in any country. Religions are fighting continuously, and if the government consists of fanatic, religious people, the minority is crushed and destroyed in every possible way. The desire is good, but the people who are desiring it are all wrong. In the convention at which the UN declared these fundamental rights, the Soviet Union was absent; eight other communist countries were absent. America was present. Unanimously the declaration was adopted -- all in favor and nobody against. tathagat is mentioning it because it was basically an American initiative to make this declaration. And America is the first to be going against every human right. |
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Tathagat 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 25 of 54 ) appa DeepO bhava And these are the white people -- all these politicians are white. These white people have been driving the whole of humanity, for three hundred years, into slavery. They all had their empires. England had the biggest empire; it was said that the sun never set in the British Empire. Somewhere or other in the British Empire the sun was shining and it was day -- all around the earth. But other white people were not far behind: the French, the Portugese, the Spanish -- they all had vast empires, exploiting the whole earth. They have been the parasites: and it is hilarious that all these parasites are now declaring human rights. This is a deception. It is not meant; what they are saying they don't mean. It is just to give you an idea that you are equal to everybody, you are a brother to everybody, that you have all the human rights. But we all know -- all these human rights are just hypocrisies. ... In the introduction to this declaration it says, We are determined to eliminate all forms of intolerance and of discrimination based on religion or belief. And this is not true in any country. Religions are fighting continuously, and if the government consists of fanatic, religious people, the minority is crushed and destroyed in every possible way. The desire is good, but the people who are desiring it are all wrong. In the convention at which the UN declared these fundamental rights, the Soviet Union was absent; eight other communist countries were absent. America was present. Unanimously the declaration was adopted -- all in favor and nobody against. tathagat is mentioning it because it was basically an American initiative to make this declaration. And America is the first to be going against every human right. One of the most fundamental things to be always remembered is that we are living in a hypocrite society. Once, a great philosopher was asked: "What do you think of civilization?" The philosopher said, "It is a good idea, but somebody has to change the idea into a reality. Civilization has not happened yet. It is a dream of the future." But the people who are in power -- politically, religiously, socially -- are in power because civilization has not happened. A civilized world, a mature man, needs no nations -- all those boundaries are false -- needs no religions, because all those theologies are simple fictions. The people who have been for thousands of years in power -- the priests, the politicians, the super-rich, they have all the powers to prevent human evolution. But the best way to prevent it is to convince man, "You are already civilized," to convince man, "You are already a human being. You need not go through a transformation, it is unnecessary." |
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Tathagat 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 26 of 54 ) appa DeepO bhava And man's weakness is that knowing perfectly well there exists no such thing as civilization, there exists no such thing as human sensitivity, still he starts believing in all the lies that the politicians have been speaking, the priests have been preaching, the educationists have been teaching -- because it seems simpler to just believe, you don't have to do anything for it. To recognize the fact that you are not yet a man creates fear. The very ground underneath your feet disappears. Truth makes you utterly naked -- naked of all lies, naked of all hypocrisies. That's why nobody wants truth; everybody believes that he has got it. Do you see the psychological strategy? If you don't want to give something to someone, convince him, hypnotize him, repeat again and again, "You have got it." And when thousands of people around you -- your parents, your teachers, your priests, your leaders -- are all believing it, it seems almost impossible for new arrivals in the world, small children, not to be convinced of this thousands-of-years-old idea. Millions of people have lived and died believing that civilization has happened. So the first thing tathagat want you to understand is that we are still barbarous. Only barbarians can do things that we have been doing for thousands of years -- not human beings. In three thousand years, five thousand wars... and you call man civilized? In the twentieth century -- exactly in the middle of the twentieth century -- you can produce Adolf Hitler, you can produce Josef Stalin, you can produce Benito Mussolini, you can produce Mao Tse-tung, and still you believe man is civilized? Adolf Hitler alone killed six million human beings, and killed with great sophistication. Science and technology have been used. One million Jews have been simply burned in gas chambers -- within seconds thousands of people are nothing but smoke going out of the chimneys. He killed so many people that it was impossible to give each person the conventional grave. Man has never been so poor -- even beggars have graves, but he had killed so many people that to make graves for all of them... the whole of Germany would have became a graveyard. So he had deep ditches prepared, and people were simply thrown into the ditches and covered with mud. Before throwing their bodies in the ditches he destroyed even those dead peoples' dignity. Their clothes were taken away; their heads, their beards, their moustaches were shaved so you could not recognize the face of the person. Their heads were cut off; so you would find somewhere the head and somewhere the hand and somewhere the leg and somewhere the remaining parts of the body. And thousands of people -- it was impossible to figure out who you were looking for. Why did he do that? So that nobody could be recognized. Even if somebody was found dead, he could not be recognized; he did not even have his whole body. And you say that man is civilized? And this is not the end of the story. Seeing the second world war, one would have thought that just a little intelligence is needed and the second world war should be the last world war -- seeing what man himself has been doing to man. But no, we are preparing for the third world war -- and the very last one... |
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Pankaj 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 27 of 54 ) Varna was conferred on the basis of the intrinsic nature of an individual, which is a combination of three gunas (qualities) sattva, rajas, and tamas. The following example illustrate that the Varna System of the Vedas was based upon one's aptitude and natural capabilities. Eleven great points about the caste system 1. Sage Vyasa, a Brahmin sage and the most revered author of the major Hindu scriptures, was the son of Satyavati, a low caste woman. Vyasa's father, Sage Parasara, had fallen in love with Satyavati, a fisherwoman, and had married her. Vyasa's deep knowledge of the Vedas later determined the caste of Vyasa as Brahmin sage, and not his birth to a low caste-woman. 2. Sage Valmiki, the celebrated author of of the epic, Ramayana, was a low caste hunter. He came to be known as a Brahmin sage on the basis of his profound knowledge of the scriptures and his authorship of the Ramayana. 3. Sage Aitareya, who wrote the Aitareya Upanishad and was born of a Shudra woman. 4. Rishi Parashar, the famous law-giver was the son of a Chandala, the lowest of the Sudras. 5. Rishi Vasishta was the son of a prostitute, but honored as a sage. 6. Sage Vidura, a Brahmin sage who gave religious instruction to King Dhritarashtra, was born to a low caste woman servant of the palace. His caste as a Brahmin sage was determined on the basis of his wisdom and knowledge of Dharma Shastras (scriptures). 7. The Kauravas and Pandavas were the descendants of Satyavati, a low caste fisher-woman, and the sons of Sage Vyasa. Vyasa's father was the Brahmin Sage Parasara, the grandson of Sage Vasishtha. In spite of this mixed heredity, the Kauravas and Pandavas were known as Kshatriyas on the basis of their occupation. 8. Saint Thiruvalluvar who wrote Thirukural was only a weaver. Other saints were adored including Kabir, Sura Dasa, Ram Dasa and Tukaram came from the humblest class of Hindu society. 9. In the Mahabharata, Yudhishthira defines a Brahmin as one who is truthful, forgiving, and kind. He clearly points out that a Brahmin is not a Brahmin just because he is born in a Brahmin family, nor is a Shudra a Shudra because his parents are Shudras. 10. The author of one of the hymns of the Rigveda says: " I am a composer of hymns, my father is a physician, my mother grinds corn on a stone. We are all engaged in different occupations." 11. The Adishankara had stated that by birth every human being is a Shudra. It is by education and upbringing that he or she becomes `twice born', that is, a Dwija. 12. Many of the modern India's leaders and visionaries were not Brahmin by birth but were true Brahmins by their action and thoughts: Gandhiji, Swami Vivekananda, Sri Aurobindo, Swami Chinmayananda etc |
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thetruth 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 28 of 54 ) pankaj i do agree with u. but now caste is determined by birth only . caste system is bad .it is causing serious harm to hindu society . we have to do away with it though it is not so easy . opposition will come from both so called higher caste and lower caste sections . sickening thing is even the lower caste politicians will oppose it . caste system is helping the divide and rule policy . vote-bank consideration is the soul of indian democracy . there is no escape . william bentinck fought for abolition of child marriage , rajput's horrible practise of widow-burning etc . He fought for remarriages of widows , probably becuse he didn't need to win elections in INDIA . Indians should be grateful for this great man . What are our politicians doing today ?? everything they do are aimed at vote-banks . they can go to any extent for their personal gains . Why lalloos , mayavatis are not fighting 4 abolition of the caste system ?? -- because they too lust for power , they too try divide the people . till now there were only backward clasees . now mayavati has discovered MOST BACKWARD CLASSES . very soon somebody will discover SUPERMOST BACKWARD CLASSES , EXTERMELY BACKWARD CLASSES etc. mayavati has set a ternd .( mayavati's contribution for the upliftment of backward classes !! ) KANCHA ILLAIH , THE GREAT THINKER OF 21ST CENTURY , is crying hoarse over BUFALLO'S UNHOLY milk . Why this man is thinking like that i cannot understand . HINDUS consider cow as a holy animal . what is wrong with that ? that is simply a belief . those kind of beliefs are abundant in all religions . TIGER IS INDIA'S NATIONAL ANIMAL . KANCHAJI should ask """"WHY IS TIGER , NOT THE DOG , CAT , WOLF , GOAT , DEER , BEAR OR THE RHINO INDIA'S NATIONAL ANIMAL ??? WHY IS THIS INJUSTICE ?? WHY IS A CARNIVORUS ANIMAL INDIA'S NATIONAL ANIMAL , WHY NOT A HARBIVORUS ONE ??""""" kanchaji we will look for u , u r the most suitable PERSON on earth for raising this matter which was being unnoticed . KANCHAJI i forgot , there is another thing which need ur attention ..... PEACOCK is india's national bird . KANCHAJI u should ask indian govt """" WHY IS THE PEACOCK , NOT THE CROW , PARROT , SPARROW OR THE DOVE india's national bird ??""""" KANCHAJI u may very well raise the matter in united nations or in some other country like USA , UK etc . |
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Tathagat 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 29 of 54 ) appa DeepO bhava NGO Draft Declaration & Program of Action [ICARE] in Adobe Acrobat pdf ... Justice could be delayed, but it cannot be denied... millions of people all through the globe did notice the plight of the dalits... watan ki fi'kr kar naadaaN! musiibat aane waalii hai teri barbaadiyoN ke mash'vare heiN aasmaanoN meiN na samjhoge toh miT jaaoge ey Buddhadesh vaasiyoN tumhari daastaaN bhi na hogii daastaanoN meiN ****** tumhaarii tahzeeb apney kHanjar se aap hi kHudkashi karegii jo shaakH-e-naazuk pe aashiyaana banega, na paayedaar hoggga ******** God2the angels uTThoN meri duniya ke gHareeboN ko jaga do kaakH-e-umraa (palaces of the rich) ke dar-o-deewaar hilaa do garmaa'o gHulaamoN ka lahuu sauz-e-yaqeeN se kunjashk-e-faromaya (tiny bird) ko shaaheeN (falcon) se laRaa do sultaani-e-jamhoor ka aataa hai zamaana jo naqsh-e-kuhan (sign of backwardness?) tumko nazar aaye miTaa do Jiss khet se dehqaaN ko mayyassar nahiN ROTI (rozii) uss khet ke har gosha-e-guNdam ko jalaa do meiN naakHush-o-bezaar hooN mar mar ki siloN se mere liye miTTii ka haram aur bana do. allama a late convert Sapru (conversion to tathagat is like wearing somebody else's dirt instead of one's own) ... one of many lies propogated by the xtreme right wingers here... is that all converts are maleechh'a... and that it has spread by means of force... whole of this country had turned Buddhist... when did they revert to this stupid mess of a religion (circus)... |
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psh 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 30 of 54 ) caste system is an internal issue of the country so idon't think it's an apt situation to discuss it at the durban summit. in that case u cango to international summits to solve each and every problem the country is facing. most of the times it's ultimately in rural areas such things are happening due to high illiteracy rates. for which the government has already taken steps to improve. people care a damn about upper caste people and its blind belief that if u are from upper caste u are rich. u are made deprieved of higher education with all thi resevations there is no room for merit no wonder so many meritorious people flee to other countries for better recognition to thier merit. studie is not to be donated to undeserved people even if they get minus marks in the competetive exams. its something u have work hard for. no womder there is so much of curruption in the society with such people as buearocarts and officers they sell their job 'coz they didn't face any difficulty to reach that situation. they can't know the value of their job since he will be a reservation candidate. any lower caste person denies such a status if he really thinks as a true indian inthe larger interests of the country. basically i'm anupper caste guy but i oppose the caste system. i think hinduism should not be diversified on the basis of caste. u should remove complete caste system u'r identity should be one just a hindu or in that case indian. thinking about it politically why shouldn't this had been since ages and ages but only now when bjp govt is in ruling it's only cheapest tricks with the support some of the most stupid press people who donot have any other work than digging pits for the government and a huge economic loss to the country |
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psh 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 31 of 54 ) i know this letter is against your objective and u don't care for thiscaste system is an internal issue of the country so idon't think it's an apt situation to discuss it at the durban summit. in that case u cango to international summits to solve each and every problem the country is facing. most of the times it's ultimately in rural areas such things are happening due to high illiteracy rates. for which the government has already taken steps to improve. people care a damn about upper caste people and its blind belief that if u are from upper caste u are rich. u are made deprieved of higher education with all thi resevations there is no room for merit no wonder so many meritorious people flee to other countries for better recognition to thier merit. studie is not to be donated to undeserved people even if they get minus marks in the competetive exams. its something u have work hard for. no womder there is so much of curruption in the society with such people as buearocarts and officers they sell their job 'coz they didn't face any difficulty to reach that situation. they can't know the value of their job since he will be a reservation candidate. any lower caste person denies such a status if he really thinks as a true indian inthe larger interests of the country. basically i'm anupper caste guy but i oppose the caste system. i think hinduism should not be diversified on the basis of caste. u should remove complete caste system u'r identity should be one just a hindu or in that case indian. thinking about it politically why shouldn't this had been since ages and ages but only now when bjp govt is in ruling it's only cheapest tricks with the support some of the most stupid press people who donot have any other work than digging pits for the government and a huge economic loss to the country and finally for people like what can i say just because he was not allowed in aschool in his village long long long ago he loses faith in hindu relegion but i think he has gone blind to see him in the same society at such a good job sob sob illiah i hail u what ever u said about hinduism it's 200% right so u better try to educate people instead of sitting in one corner cribbing and writing anti hindu books. u cannot see god in any relegion when he is not with in u. there were are will be enough people ready to critisize hinduism even if an ant dies u can say god has made it born why should it die? in that case why is it made born? ask your community people how many of them are not secure of thier lives? u get government job and your great grand son is also secure. don't go to your village to ask this u hate it don't u that's u. as lincoln said it's what the society or country did to u it's what u do to the country that counts i think telugu movie simharaasi should be the movie just for the people like u .i think this outlook tehelka people will loose out of space for more tehelkas else i would have written book for especially Mr illiah |
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psh 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 32 of 54 ) i know this letter is against your objective and u don't care for thiscaste system is an internal issue of the country so idon't think it's an apt situation to discuss it at the durban summit. in that case u cango to international summits to solve each and every problem the country is facing. most of the times it's ultimately in rural areas such things are happening due to high illiteracy rates. for which the government has already taken steps to improve. people care a damn about upper caste people and its blind belief that if u are from upper caste u are rich. u are made deprieved of higher education with all thi resevations there is no room for merit no wonder so many meritorious people flee to other countries for better recognition to thier merit. studie is not to be donated to undeserved people even if they get minus marks in the competetive exams. its something u have work hard for. no womder there is so much of curruption in the society with such people as buearocarts and officers they sell their job 'coz they didn't face any difficulty to reach that situation. they can't know the value of their job since he will be a reservation candidate. any lower caste person denies such a status if he really thinks as a true indian inthe larger interests of the country. basically i'm anupper caste guy but i oppose the caste system. i think hinduism should not be diversified on the basis of caste. u should remove complete caste system u'r identity should be one just a hindu or in that case indian. thinking about it politically why shouldn't this had been since ages and ages but only now when bjp govt is in ruling it's only cheapest tricks with the support some of the most stupid press people who donot have any other work than digging pits for the government and a huge economic loss to the country and finally for people like what can i say just because he was not allowed in aschool in his village long long long ago he loses faith in hindu relegion but i think he has gone blind to see him in the same society at such a good job sob sob illiah i hail u what ever u said about hinduism it's 200% right so u better try to educate people instead of sitting in one corner cribbing and writing anti hindu books. u cannot see god in any relegion when he is not with in u. there were are will be enough people ready to critisize hinduism even if an ant dies u can say god has made it born why should it die? in that case why is it made born? ask your community people how many of them are not secure of thier lives? u get government job and your great grand son is also secure. don't go to your village to ask this u hate it don't u that's u. as lincoln said it's what the society or country did to u it's what u do to the country that counts i think telugu movie simharaasi should be the movie just for the people like u .i think this outlook tehelka people will loose out of space for more tehelkas else i would have written book for especially Mr illiah |
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Janet 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 33 of 54 ) Indian intellectuals are afraid of their own 'die hard' belief in the caste system and will only feel ashamed to bring it to an international forum for discussion. It is already a GLOBAL ISSUE in many homes of indians abroad. They themselves don't want to turn their backs on their own beliefs, so bringing it into an international forum will only air their dirty laundry. India should address this problem of caste, color and wealthy association by inviting indians in the diaspora to help them begin the long road of valuing the beautiful black buffalo. Indian filmmakers should begin by showing the true skin color of indians rather than whitening them! THe media should watch its 'mindset' on caste. I read the recent incident of a newborn baby girl being found in a ditch. The reporter said that the police and other witness of the body claimed the baby is from a good family because it was light skinned!! Imagine what they would have written had the baby been dark skinned! IF Indians themselves cannot come together and educate in an INTEGRATED way, when the psyche is too deeply entrenched, then they need international input. Begin by admitting that CASTE is a DEMON! |
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Tathagat 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 34 of 54 ) appa DeepO bhava On the road from Durban racism and terror converge : What starts with Jews is often an early danger warning for society at large By Shimon Samuels, Ha'aretz. Saturday, October 13, 2001 Tishrei 26, 5762 Durban Update by Charles Tanzer, The Nation Caste Away As a United Nations conference on racism gets underway, India's untouchables are taking their civil-rights demands to the international stage. motherjones.com by Carla Power July/August 2001 When dogs don’t bark : As South Africa plays host to the third UN conference on racism, how much progress has it made itself? The Economist.com |
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luvvmann 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 35 of 54 ) kancha iliah is not a professor. he is an idiot fanning hatred. he does not have one bad word to say about islam and christianity as though they are perfect religions. he is afraid of the muslims lest thay cut his balls off. he rails against the upper caste hindus because india is a free society. infact india is ruled by lower caste hindus today and not upper caste hindus. what is iliah talking about. he is a fool. |
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prem_d 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 36 of 54 ) I am from South India where caste is sometimes taken a bit too seriously. I never even have given it a thought but my brother does take pride in us being Nadars etc..etc. But all things were put into perspective by my little 9 year old cousin when she came visiting from USA about a couple of years ago. When my brother started to explain to her the greatness of our caste and the glory or whatever, I could see her face change with abject confusion and then she interrupted him: "so..in a way.. you say that you and him (me) and all our relatives here belong to some kinda gang, right? Well, I guess I didnt know that we belonged to some GANG!!!" I looked over to my brother and he was as shell-shocked as I had ever seen him. I laughed so hard that day but it has made me think ever since as to how other people, even a nine year old girl sees caste as, as a huge GANG! I live in the USA now and thats the first thing people here want to know, if I am a Hindu (which is usually an automatic assumption here in the MidWest) and how the caste system in India works. They are amazed when I tell them that I am an Indian Christian, and I really dont care about my caste. One of my friends even told me she wants to "experience" the caste system in India! LOL! think I should take her to Bihar?? We sure do need to get rid of this caste system before it reaches into the minds of little innocent souls and corrupt them into believing that they are from some superior sect or caste. And the ONLY solution is to teach our children that caste is not a discriminator among people and that everyone is equal. And also, removing the caste sections from all the application forms that our Government makes us fill for the smallest thing! Being Indian is good enough for me, I dont need to be part of anything else. |
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joy 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 37 of 54 ) Yaar, itna bhi nahin maloom hai ki controlled-eugenics aur racism mein phark hai? |
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vineet87 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 38 of 54 ) I don't know how Mr. Idiot Illiah became a professor. Such idiots preaching falsehood can only thrive in Outlook. His version of Hindu gods is distorted and no where in the scriptures. Consider some samples from Idiot Illaih and decide on his and Outlook's intellectual depth : ''Vishnu reclining on the serpent is an indication of his inhumanness. Goddess Laxmi has a full hand in the plots hatched by Vishnu against the Dalitbahujans. Should any Dalitbahujan individual acquire wealth, or turn against the caste system, Goddess Laxmi spies on them and informs Vishnu. Then Vishnu kills them with his Vishnu chakra (disc).Siva and Parvati are probably girijans. But Parvati also works against Dalitbahujans in tandem with Laxmi and Saraswati.Is it not ironical that the Hindu mythology constructed a good image like Krishna who robs butter, steal clothes of women - that too when they were bathing. While all other Hindu Gods get constructed as monogamian Sativratas (One wife worshippers) Krishna was shown to have indulged in post-modernist sexual orgies.Who is Krishna? Why did the Brahmins create such a god? It is the same Krishna who is said to have authored the most Brahminical text the Bhagavad Gita. At a time when the Sudras had no right to education, how did a Yadava write the Gita? How did a Yadava writer not provide any social space for Yadavas themselves, leave alone the other Dalit bahujans? The hundred Kauravas stood against Brahminical Dharma and represented Dalit bahujans, whereas the five Pandavas represented the Brahminical minority". |
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jbindra 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 39 of 54 ) We shall overcome. The Caste System is the most inhumane practice prevalent anywhere in the world. Lets not go bouncing about finding faults in other people's religions. Lets set our house straight first. The Caste System allows for the higher castes to use as pawns the people of the lower castes and then dispose them. Not to speak of the terrible atrocities that are committed against lower caste women and men. Phoolan Devi any one ? And if they speak out, they become the worst individuals. What is a low caste person to do against all the oppression other than to take the gun. The legal system as you know in India is "Bhagwan Bharosay" and the Police and the Netas. Well filling their swiss bank accounts is all they care for. So what is someone to do ? Either do away with the caste system in practise as is given in the constitution or brace for more Phoolans and Behmai massacres. Personally Any male, high caste or low caste, from any religion who does not respect the dignity of women ought to be castrated and shot. |
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gandalf 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 40 of 54 ) Its amazing that esteemed writers like Lowman whose alpha and omega writing is in the free outlook chat and of couorse the letters to editor of the RSS rag, can spout blanket statements. Just because someones vew does not really match with ones own does not mean you can abuse him like this.. in civilised society that is.. A protestants vies of catholism would be contested by some Catholics. So also a Sufi's view of Sunnis or Ahmadiyas. So also there will be differences between two buddists. The Danger of these lowman types is it keeps decent people away from forums like this. That is SAD. That is exactly what should not happen |
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bharathv 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 41 of 54 ) Ok guys, let me things clear...really saddening to see from ur posts that none of u is well-versed in hinduism enough to even COMMENT on the so-called caste system. 1. Organization of society What society is not organized? The LAME ones. what the vedic culture proposes is tat man should follow whatever duties given to him. A son does what his father tells, am i not right? To make life EASY, ORGANIZED, EFFICIENT, the varna system is deemed excellent. There is absolutely no discrimination as such. If one is a Brahmin by birth, but not by duty, that in itself is a contradictory statement. LEt us look at it in this way. If your dad is a doctor, but u are the laziest ass ever, does that make u a doctor too? That is how this works! Unfortunately too many Indians are "brain-washed" by foreigners into beliving that they are being discriminated against! What absurdity! Look at the India which followed this system, and compare it to the present India we live in. We can only talk about how "great" we were...where are we now? Think about this...if u wanna clarify any details, just email me at vbharathv@hotmail.com. I shall dispel any doubts. |
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sumer 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 42 of 54 ) The caste system in its original form made a lot of logical and economic sense. Some that system is very much alive in most countries, like it or not. unfortunately, the caste system was contaminated by some selfish brahmins and others in India to suit to their own selfish motives. Initially there was no hierachy in the caste system. It was based on the division of labor. Isn't that so in USA? Not everyone can be in the armed forces, or become priests, or businesspersones, etc. The same is true in India. These days, however, these so-called harijans have abused the system to gain special favors in India. They use "quotas" to get many cushy jobs, but when it comes to using quotas in the armed forces, these same so-called harijans run miles away. How about for patriotism!!! I wish India practise the caste system with its oroginal intent. It will work. |
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gandalf 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 43 of 54 ) "The caste system in its original form made a lot of logical and economic sense." - so did communisim, facism and aparthied. they all made sense to someone " Initially there was no hierachy in the caste system. It was based on the division of labor." - a complete myth and double talk. could a sudra become a vaidyan?. " Isn't that so in USA? Not everyone can be in the armed forces, " - wld like some clarification as this is so obviously wrong. There are organisational rules on entry quals, but nothing based on birth. Gender discrimingation which is diff, has been almost completely 'systemically' wiped out "harijans have abused the system to gain special favors in India" interesting. Why dont you use this logic economically. We should have had a completely open market without any protections or phased protections for our industry. How about that? |
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Karapall 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 44 of 54 ) All you stupid fuckers who seem to think that the caste problem is India's biggest problem, need to get your head out of your ass. Every problem in India is usually based on economics, and the group with better economic power uses castes to screw the weaker economic classes. The vedic division of castes is all bollocks in India today. Some of the most affluent classes have nothing to do with brahmins, in fact most well off castes are probably part of the vasihya/other non brahmin castes. |
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gandalf 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 45 of 54 ) Bollocks O Karapal thayoli. Everyproblem is based on economics my foot you idiot. A few post back you say every problem is based on Muslims. Soon it will be Christians, then American induced Global warming. Cut out your brainless ranting |
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gandalf 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 46 of 54 ) Good letter to the Editor in the Deccan Herald, Bangalore Edition dated August 20,2002. Talks about Dalit Identy etc. Says that the Dalits dont have any reason to join a non-bjp party as much as the BJP, because the Sudras procticed/s as fierce untouchability as the BHramins. Whild Sanghi morons are fooling the rest of the nation with the Muslim red herring, they are thankfully loosing sight of the sore that is going to knock them out. This country is going to see some violent times and it just may not be the BJP/RSS combine... |
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gandalf 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 47 of 54 ) Sumer.. Like all Sanghis, why do you keep silent the moment your points are negated?.. Do you have any rebuttals. The days of blind mantra recitals are over. |
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Karapall 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 48 of 54 ) Gandalf: "Says that the Dalits dont have any reason to join a non-bjp party as much as the BJP, because the Sudras procticed/s as fierce untouchability as the BHramins. " This does not make sense. Aren't the "sudras" the same as untouchables?? In that case, why would they be practising untouchability. Also, the letter seems to claim that dalits are oppressed by sudras, which seems ridiculous. |
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Karapall 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 49 of 54 ) Gandalf: "Everyproblem is based on economics my foot you idiot." You just made that generalization,not me, fukwit. " A few post back you say every problem is based on Muslims." No, that is what your puny brain seems to have grasped. Each problem has its own history, and problems that are not specific to one caste or community, are usually rooted in land/money disputes. The muslim problem falls outside of these because it is a religious dispute between them and non muslims. Did that sink in this time? |
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gandalf 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 50 of 54 ) Krappy: "Did that sink in this time?" Nope |
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Karapall 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 51 of 54 ) Gandalf: I am sorry that you are such a cretin. BEtter luck with your genes the next time around (there isn't a next time, but I am just saying this to comfort you). |
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nature 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 52 of 54 ) Karapall:"No, that is what your puny brain seems to have grasped" This guy seems to think he is the only guy to have any brains over here. He doesnot realize that he is infact a laughing stock in this forum and is exposing the Sanghis which he represents by his awful behavior. |
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Karapall 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 53 of 54 ) nature: "This guy seems to think he is the only guy to have any brains over here" For a stupid turd who just claimed that India and pakistan are at a time of "peace and trade", you surely cannot lay any claims to having even an iota of brains, you jihadi worm. |
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hosho 8/21/2001 10:27:59 PM ( 54 of 54 ) hey are u guys crazy....constitution gives them protection.then the menace of RESERVATION.what else d u need. for the wrongs done centuries ago...we r paying such a heavy price. wasnt i right when i call this nation a #@#@*&# |
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