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Majority Vs Minority vohsendhan 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM “Let the minorities understand that their real safety lies in the goodwill of the majority”, said the resolution passed by the executive council of the RSS at Bangalore on 17.3.2002. Such a nauseating display of arrogance is not in the interest of the nation, especially when the RSS is ruling the nation through its double called the BJP. The Muslims have the Constitutional right to live as Muslims and the Christians as Christians and they are not required to be thankful for their survival to any magnanimous gesture on the part of the Hindus day in and day out. There is therefore no question of making their safety contingent on the goodwill and bad-will of the majority. If the RSSwalahs think that they have found a way to alienate the minority through various organized pograms, they must know that they are walking into a trap and are inviting international attention and condemnation on their tendency to instigate and commit genocide after genocide. “If by the mere force of numbers a majority should deprive a minority of any clearly written constitutional right, it might, in a moral point of view, justify revolution – certainly would if such a right were a vital one” - Abraham Lincoln, as found necessary by the Indian Express to be quoted 17 years ago on 28.2.1985. |
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kayakody 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 1 of 288 ) Oh!! to where our country is going? We began our travelling from Gandhiji, who went to Navkhali on the day-nights of independence,he lived for minorities, untouchables...we say that like. But where we go? why these men who trying to devide the Indians to Muslims and Hindus not looks to the history? India built up with these communities,from the beginning of the history we meet it. we have to realise us.We have to go far ahead. With closed hands each other. |
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luvvmann 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 2 of 288 ) vohsendhan chutiya (dravidian asshole) go suck some muslim dick you nauseating unintellectual motherfucker. don't twist what the RSS is saying. what they are saying is correct. peace and tranquility are the responsibility of both the hindus and muslims. the hindus will not sit on their ass and take any more of the muslim bullshit, with you motherfucking secular assholes encouraging mayhem day in and day out. your real problem is that you hate the hindus and your jaundiced eyes can see nothing right in the hindus. let me tell you asshole that the muslims will cut your secular dick off first if they get a chance. you socalled rational athiestic matherchots will be reemed in your stinking butt bybthese mad dog jihadis. thank your rational master periyar taht you live in a hindu majority country, you stinking asshole. |
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Tathagat 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 3 of 288 ) appa DeepO bhava ...why NHRC Verma wore dark sun glasses ?!? ...avoiding direct eye contact with the victims he visited...!!! Samata Party, an ally of the BJP, asked the Government to re in in the RSS and the Vishwa Hindu Parishad to prevent the country from``irreversible political destabilisation.' Vaiko (MDMK) said unequivocally:``protection of the minorities is the card in al principle of democracy.The majority has the responsibility to be magnanimous and flexible to promote harmony with the minorities.I am totally opposed to the concept of the RSS resolution.' Many others, including members of the Telugu Desam Party and the Trinamool Congress,ha ve expressed shock at this blatant threat to the minority community. As for the BJP, its spokesperson, V.K.Malhotra, h as been claimingig norance:``I have not yet seen there solution so I cannot comment, wash is answer to questionson what the BJP though tof the RSS view. ``was a direct challenge to the Constitution...this House must unequivo cally disapprove and condemn the resolution.'Munshide INC in the hse withou this designer sunglasses...but why NHRC Verma wore dark glasses...avoiding direct eye contact with the victim she visited... Mr.Das munshi referred to the height ened communal tension in the country and a cused the RSS of trying to undermine the nation sunity by creating such divisions with in society. ``Parliament must take a strong view on this, we can not ignore it he said. He was supported by E.A.Ahmed and Banatwalao the IUML and Raghuvansh Prasad of the RJD. Denouncing the RSS resolution, Mr.Ahmed said it was``a trocious and repugn ant to the principles of the Constitution. Samata Party,an ally of the BJP, asked the Government to reinin the RSS and the Vishwa Hindu Parishad to prevent the country from`` irreversible political destabilisation. Vaiko(MDMK) said unequivocally:``protection of the minorities is the card in al principle of democracy.The majority has the responsibility to be magnanimous and flexible to promot e harmony with the minorities.I am totally opposed to the concept of the RSS resolution. Many others,including members of the Telugu Desam Party and theTrinamool Congress, have expressed shockat this blatant threat to the minority community. As for the BJP,its spokesperson,V.K.Malhotra, has been claiming ignorance:``I have not yet seen the resolution so I cannot comment, was his answer to questionson what the BJP though tof the RSS view. ``was direct challenge to the Constitution...this House must unequivocally disapprove and condemn the resolution. Munshi de INC in the hse without his designer sunglasses...but why NHRC Verma wore dark sun glasses...avoiding direct eye contact with the victims he visited... Mr.Dasmunshi referred to the heightened communal tension in the country and accused the RSS of trying to undermine the nation'sunity by creating such divisions within society. ``Parliament must take a strong view on this, we can not ignore it he said.He was supported by E.A.Ahmed and Banatwala of the IUML and Raghuvansh Prasad of the RJD. Denouncing the RSS resolution, Mr.Ahmed said it as``a trocious and repugnant to the principles of the Constitution. |
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maky 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 4 of 288 ) Talk of Majority Vs Minority it is perennial.Take case of the most liberal of societiesviz.US.It had all but one Protestant Presidents barring only Kennedy who was a catholic.No Black,no Hispanic not even a Protestant lady could become all powerful.It natural that majority people will have an upperhand.Take case of Pakistan.There is hardly any minority has remained living.Muslims have no right to rue about brute majoritism.They themselves are the biggest proponents of this theory.No muslim country tolerates religious freedom. |
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gadityak 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 5 of 288 ) Hi, I believe that majority or minority .... all have an equal right and resposibilty to be a part of India. The riots in Gujrat are a shameful part of our comtemporary life. But at the same time I think that the minority should be more proactive and assert their Indian identity. Why is it that we only have the likes of Dawood and Aftab (note the minority status that they come from) that foment most of the trouble in our country? Why is it that the Imam in Delhi only asks for retribution for those minorities killed in Gujrat while not asking for the same for the Godhra. True there are hindu fanatics among us but the minorities who take the assualt on their patriotism lying and side on subversive activites are equally to blame. We all can live as one... I hope we can realise this before it's too late. |
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thindu 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 6 of 288 ) The Hindus are peaceful and hardly provoked into violence. Just like America and Britain were patient and gave Afghanistan two months before reacting, the Hindus have remained patient and tolerant and gave Muslim fundamentalists over a 1,000 years, before reacting. Just as America reacted because it felt insure in its own homeland, the Hindus have begun to feel insecure in India - their own backyard. What happened in Godhra was planned, pre-meditated and a brutal, merciless terrorist attack on innocent lives. What followed was a human cry and outrage for justice against an inhuman act, which no Government or Police system in the world, however advanced, could immediately control or contain. Britain is respected for its policing and yet almost every time, after an England-Germany football match, uncontrollable fans run riots, rampaging and killing hundreds of innocent lives? Though the Government knows this in advance, and the police are fully prepared, yet violence breaks out. Because the Government couldn't stop it, can the violence be called Government-supported? Is it police inaction because hundreds of police couldn't control them? Human rage, crowd fury is difficult to control because it out-weighs and out-numbers the methods of control. America took months of bombing to control its rage, and President Bush was nominated for the Nobel Prize for Peace. The reason is: his fight is against terrorism, more specifically Islamic terrorism. So is Narendra Modi's fight, His fight is against criminal elements who burnt the train, who arc terrorizing Gujarat and de-stabilizing peace in this progressive State. When Bush proceeded, he had the mandate of the American people. He didn't wait for any other world opinion. When national security is at stake, people support those who protect them, Narendra Modi has the mandate of Gujaratis all over the world, to protect the lives and interest of the people he leads. Come to Gujarat, go home to home, and ask what people have to say about the events, 50 million people of Gujarat will give their verdict in one voice. The voice of the people is true democracy and not the bought, biased reporting of a newspaper or a news channel. If you still don't trust Gujarat, go to the pages of world history, or to the map of our present world. Simply ask. have Hindus, who are living in almost all countries of the world, created any problems in their local neighborhoods, in their work places, preached violence in their worship places, betrayed the countries they have adopted? Ask the same question about Muslims and the problems are omni-present, in almost every country, in every locality. Go ahead and name just one professional Hindu terrorist group. And Islamic terrorist groups can fill a separate directory. History also bears witness that Hindus have never invaded another race or country, then why would they want to destroy their neighbor Muslims? Hindus live allover India, and no Muslims have been attacked anywhere else. Even in Gujarat, out of 18,000 villages, riots broke out in only 40 villages, it is less than 0.2 %. Why didn't all the Hindus in all the 18,000 villages run riots, if the violence was Government-sponsored or Police-supported? It is because is was the natural, spontaneous response of the people who stood up for justice. Just as many countries are tom and tortured by terrorists, but America and Britain had the will power to stand up for justice and give a just reply. Last week, simple, people in Gujarat stood up for their rights for peace and security and gave a just reply so that massacres like Godhra never happen, ever again, to anyone, at any place, in any country |
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mind 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 7 of 288 ) luwmann..it is true if we get chance we will surely be back with vengeance...many things are to be settled..starting from partition to gujrat riots., agey dekho hota hai kya.... |
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Tathagat 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 8 of 288 ) appa DeepO bhava ...yahaaN se pachaas pachaas kos duur north india meiN, jab musalmaan ka bachchaa raat ko rota hai toh maaN kehtii hai beta so jaa... so ja nahiN toh Narendar Mody/ BJP/ VHP/ Bajrang Dal/ RSS aa jaayega... ...the bajrangiis are the one who is a minority... they train the way talibaaN did... and Congress nurtured them this social menace... which looks outta control now... and unleashing a cycle of violence... whenever the ballot box open empty for them... they resorted 2 these kinda of violence against muslims... 4 long they have been at this game... 58 v/s 700+ and create a sense of power over people... but now angry people may turn against U's and violently2... ... Muslims2get organized now... and if Justice is not seen2be done by arresting ad trying hundreds of Key bajrangiis... muslims and 'sofa beds' citizenry will retaliate... and this time no innocent will burn2death but bajarangiiz alone... ...they shouldn't go scot free... and they should be punished... if not by kaala chogHa than by the people... but Justice will be done... loadz of Gujarati muslim migrating to western MP... property rates going up just on the basis of inquiries... Diggy welcoming them... telling them not 2 worry about the future either... saying i even drank a glass full of cow urine 2 sway bajarangii voters away from them... (as Labour went right2remove Tories in England) in MP they won't be in power for 20 years... but b4 that i think they will be on the run much b4that... and that they may be calling Gujarat a 'hindutwa lab'... but they banned PTV during the riots only... I did it mid Jan 2002... O'course with verbal instructions... :) |
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jwalker 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 9 of 288 ) maky, ever heard of Turkey and Indonesia? They are Muslim countries that are more advanced than India, where the minorities live in harmony with the majority Muslim population. gadtiyak, Have you ever visited a 'minority' home? Do you know that all the minorities in India have uniquely Indian customs and traditions that they have been practising for hundreds of years? So how can the minority assert its Indianness? Don't Muslims serve in the armed forces, police and sport teams for India? The Father of the Indian Atomic Bomb is a muslim. Didn't the CBI and RAW catch Hindus who spied for other countries in India? Doesn't that make your loyalty suspect? Yet you have the gall to ask the minorities to prove their Indianness. thindu, just like Godhra was premeditated so was the riots in the rest of Gujarat. It was premeditated murder. How do you explain that there are some shops with Hindu names left standing while the similar shops with Muslim owners were ransacked? It was targetted killing - with the connivance of the state government. The police stood by and did nothing. How many Hindus were arrested for these riots? The first and foremost duty of a government is to protect all people who live in their land - if the US President did not come on TV and state that violence against Muslims or those who looked South Asian would not be tolerated, wouldn't you have had a blood bath in the US? What happened to people who still committed these acts - they were arrested and tried? Gujarat is a land run by lawless goons in the name of democracy - of the Hindus, for the Hindus, by the people. As for England - Germany football matches, there is property damage but rarely do people get killed. Why ? Good police work. And anyone who creates problems is brought to justice. Considering that the Gujarat police force has a large majority of Hindus, Luwmann is correct they are cowards. They do not know what to do when mobs attack. Don't even compare a goon like Narendra Modi with Bush. After all Bush's fight is with Islamic terrorists while Modi has targetted all Muslims. What an asshole. The Gujarat Govt., like the Godhra perpetrators, must be charged with treason under the POTO. When will you and the rest of the Hindu folks realize that all of this is a coverup for the govt's inability to function, and this is saffron bullshit fed straight from the cow's ass? |
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sc2k 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 10 of 288 ) Psst. Turkey might be advanced et al. Don't talk of Indonesia. Don't you read the newspapers or watch TV. There is a lot of trouble going on there - minority-majority stuff. |
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ksramesh 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 11 of 288 ) Is not Godhra worse than the Babri Masjid demolition? Are 57 lives cheaper than a brick structure. Secularists talk of Babri Masjid demolition even after 10 years, but conveniently forget GODHRA. Who is responsible for the carnage? No organisation has taken responsibility for this? Then WHO? Hindu PILGRIMS have been burnt alive. |
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ssnkumar 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 12 of 288 ) There is nothing wrong in what RSS has told. Those with their jaundiced ideas are opposing that. When I want to live in Rome I have to live like a Roman. I have to follow their law, rules. I have to respect their customes and heroes. Otherwise they will throw me out. Now, when a Ganesha processon goes infront of a masjid, we will be asked to stop the music! Why? Why they will disrupt our procession. Is this the peaceful way of living with fellow-beings? Whenever Pakistan wins a cricket match over India, the muslims are going to rejoice. Is this not the way of supporting our enemies!? Why no muslim condemns the war in Kashmir or bomb blast by ISI all over India? Why every time it is hindus that are getting targetted by this ISI? You can see the plight of minorities in Pakistan and Banladesh. Why this is so and otherwise in India? Is it not because of the liberal majority? If hindus also behave like muslims then there son't be any muslim left in India. This muslim have to understand. Now RSS has asked them to define what is the meaning of kafir? They term every hindu as kafir! Moulana Mohmad Ali termed even Mahatma Gandhi as Kafir! Now tell me what is the meaning of Kafir? What is the meaning of Jehad in India? If kafir means sinner and Jehad means war against non-believers then how do you expect peace with them!? That's why RSS has asked them to win the good will of majority. It is high time they have understood and learnt what is meant by this. It is for their good only! |
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safize 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 13 of 288 ) mr.kumar the word kafir means non-believer which is what u are.thers nothin more sinister about the word.havent you heard the word in so many of our beautiful hindi movie songs.if u call me a non-believer,pray why should i feel bad about it.am i not a non-believer in your concept of god?in much the same manner i call u a kafir which means u are a non-believer and that is what u are.i dont see any reason why u and me should get worked up when we call each other non-believers,which is what we are,in our individual perspective. and then the concept of jihad.what was it that the mob did to muslims in gujarat.the mob led by mr.modi didnt exactly use the word 'dharmayuddh'but it was just that.retaliation.(we are not discussing whether the retaliation was proper or not.)so too with jihad which is a means of defense.as also crusade or dharmayuddh or whatever.as far as the bogey of 'jehad mentality of muslims'is concerned i ask u to read or learn about the lives of non-muslims in muslim countries,all 55 from indonesia to morocco.have u ever heard of muslim mobs going on a rampage against their minority populations?ever heard that the bellies of pregnant women were torn open and the 'anti-national'foetuses hurled to the ground?i read the newspapers that u read and watch the television that u do.i never came across such ,so u have never too.if ever i've heard of muslims killing each other,be it in pakistan or algeria or afghanistan.christians are the first minorities in so many muslim countries.never heard any christian leader.like last year when militants(or whoever)killed some christians in a church in pakistan,it was all over the papers that it was the first time in 54 years that this has happened in the islamic republic.in these 54 years how many muslims were eliminated by way of 'public mood'in our secular republic?today the whole world knows what has happened to a minority in india.the world will know when it happens in any muslim country as well.then why is it that i dont get to read of such things?the anti-muslim section of the media talks of muslim belligerence and intolerence.read a lot about that.its time i got to read something like i've been reading for the past fortnight(god forbid) |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 14 of 288 ) jwalker, Yes, turkey is a fine example for other muslim countries to follow. It should also be mentioned that the Turkish Army is responsible to maintaining the secular state of turkey, which was almost made an islamic state a couple of times until the army stepped in and threw out the mullahs. Indonesia more advanced than India?? huh? Indonesia has SEVERE strife with muslims slaughtering any and all minorities, especially christians. East Timor is an indonesian island and you have probably heard of the plight of the East Timorese. Indonesian muslims have been getting increasingly violent in their quest for total islamic rule in Indonesia. Check this link for more details. http://www.worthynews.com/news-features-2/ muslim-militia-indonesia.html |
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ssnkumar 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 15 of 288 ) Hello Safise, If a dog bites a man, it will not be published as a news. But, if it is otherwise then it will be given publicity! That's what is happening now. Why goto other countries? What did muslims did to the sikh leader Guru Teg Bahadur? How and why did they kill the 12 and 14 year old sons of Guru Govind Singh? Why did they destroy temples of Ayodhya, Mathura, Kashi, Somanath and 3000 such hindu temples? Why did Tipu Sultan converted thousands of Malbar hindus and killed who refused? Why was hindu charged with Jazia tax in the times of muslim rulers? Why muslims are hell bent on killing the sacred cow? Why was Pakistan created? Why was millions of Hindus killed during partition? Why hindus are getting killed by muslims in Kashmir? Why more thatn 1 million hindus families pushed out of Kashmir? Why Bangladeshi minorities(Hindus) getting killed or tortured? Can you answer any of these questions? If Indian Muslims behave like Indonasian muslims, then there will be no problem at all. Do you know Indonesian Muslims play Ramayana and see Sri Ram as their hero? For our muslims also Rama is the hero and their ancestor! And there are other minorities in India also other than muslims and christians like Parsis. They have never quarrelled with Hindus! Will you tell me, why communal riots flare up only in muslim dominated areas? When muslim is a small minority, then there won't be any problem. When they grow in numbers, they start opposing hindus and problems get started? They feel as if they are from Pakistan! They feel as if they are a seperate nation! Can you answer any of these question. And nobody will believe muslims as peace lovers. All over the world wherever muslims are a minority, they are facing problems. Do you know why!? Because they want to convert that Dar-Ul-Harb country into Dar-Ul-Islam! If they stop this tendency then peace will prevail! And you said I am a Kafir. Why should I be called so. I have got my own belief. Hindus never call others as kafirs, just because they don't believe their god! Learn to respect other beliefs also, then peace will come by itself! |
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jwalker 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 16 of 288 ) Turkey - true Mustafa Kemal was a colonel in the army. But the biggest achievement was separating the state and 'the church'. Without that there is no progress. But we in India are going the other direction - we want to integrate 'the church' and the state. Politics and religion have no business with each other. They should always be separate. I meant Malaysia not Indonesia. But while we are on that island - there were no communal problems under the communist rule. Don't you think the commies bought peace to the land ? |
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jwalker 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 17 of 288 ) ssnkumar, If you are in Rome, do you really do as the Romans do? If you live overseas, do you eat beef? You wouldn't. For religious reasons - you want to 'preserve your culture' when you go overseas. Even when you travel from North to South India - you will not feel comfortable eating rice - you will still want your rotis. There are Muslims living in harmony in other parts of India. (It is no different than Gujarat - there are pockets dominated by Muslims and others by Hindus)Why? Because the two religions respect each other and they haven't bought into the BJP/RSS/VHP explanation that everything that is wrong with India is because of the minority. You call such Hindus commies and secular bastards as opposed to 'kafirs' - even within Hinduism you have 'Harijans' or 'Dalits'. But their ('Hindu commies and secular bastards') land and region is far more developed than yours. Why? You just choose to believe blindly the propaganda of RSS/VHP. So much for the Indian system of education. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 18 of 288 ) jwalker, India is yet to separate church from state via a uniform civil code, and until that is done we will be seeing follow ups to the recent riots in Gujarat, all over the country. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 19 of 288 ) For exampe, this cretin vohshendan who sees something nefarious in the statement of the fact that "miorities live under the goodwill of the majority". This cretin is clearly too stupid to understand that communal harmony cannot be legisated and the warring parties need to start being sensitive to each other's concerns and views. People like vohshendan should go live in some developed countries to understand WHY those countries are developed. It is precisely because people understand what problems can be solved by legislation and which ones cannot. If we go by the AI muslim law board, the only way for peace is to legislate it, which is laughable given that these muslim barbarians think very highly of the shariat and islamic law. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 20 of 288 ) minorities in the US live under the goodwill of the majority. In fact, post 9/11, more muslims are trying to assume christian identities because they are being constantly harrassed in public otherwise. Similarly, the hindus in India are totally responsible for maintaining India's secular character, while the muslims think that secularism can be legislated and thus they have the freedom to be openly confrontational with hindus. Only muslim boneheads and pseudo-secular cretins wont realize the long-term dangers of this strategy of the muslims in India. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 21 of 288 ) jwalker, Propaganda works only if it connects to feelings already felt by people. If RSS/VHP propaganda works like you claim, then they are connecting with their target audience in some way. The bottomline is that movements like these cannot be legislated or locked up. American history has many examples of the same, such as the civil rights movement and the women's suffrage movement. |
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luvvmann 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 22 of 288 ) jwalker, you fucking imbecile. are u fucking stupid or a total ignoramuse. bastard, Turkey and Indonesia are the best examples of secularism in the muslim world, yes, yet they are blatantly communal. minorities are slaughtered at will. Turkey slaughtered millions of christian armenians. in indonesia christians and other non-muslims are killed on a daily basis. you can imagine how the other muslim countries are that are not secular. matherchot, islam and secularism are not compatible. there is no such thing as secularism in islam you stupid fucking imbecile. morons like you equate your hate for the hindus with secularism. india is the only truw secular state in the world and that is because hindus are secular by nature. that does not mean fuckers like you can walk all over them. matherchot, india protects muslims and even provides for their own civil code. this is unheard of anywhere you matherchot. muslim bastards along with their secular hindu friends are fucking liars. you benchots will burn in hell. your end is nearing. |
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luvvmann 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 23 of 288 ) jwalker stupid matherchot, what is your problem with the RSS and VHP. those fuckers would not exist if you don't with your fucked up one sided secularism. muslim matherchots do not believe in secularism. they are a bunch of hypocrites and liars. shabana azmi that stinking cunt is a good example. let me tell you matherchot that what ssnkumar has said makes sense. in 1947 and previous with congress having gandhi and nehru screwing up the country and sucking muslim dick, why was there violence you dickhead asshole. fucking bastard let me tell you, muslims themselves will tell you that they don't believe in secularism. for them it is islam and islam alone. hindus are by far the most secular fuckers in the world. they are also fucking cowards many of them. dickhead asshole see reason. if you shithead asshole secularists continue with your hypocracy, there will be war between hindus and muslims. |
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ssnkumar 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 24 of 288 ) Jwalker and other so called secularists and comies, Will you answer my this simple question? Why do muslims in India celebrate when Pakistan wins a cricket match on India? At that time why do you keep quite with your mouth shut, is this your way of practicing secularism!? |
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rachna s 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 25 of 288 ) hi all If we wanna save our country from those barbaric muslims then first we need to get rid of those communist and congress neta's such as sonias, mulayams, mayawatis.. list goes on. And after that get rid of those secular fundamentalists journalists of almost all the english dailys and magazines, such as rajdeeps , burkhas, d souzas, and that chicken shit editor of indian express. These are the ppl who have given these muslims a platform to be what they are today. Most of these muslims have got terrorist mind set IF he doesnt happen to be a terrorist. Almost all the muslims living in india just hate hindus and India, its such an obvious thing whether our so called secular ass holes belive it or not. Their religion doesnt teach tolerance. Their religion is being hijacked by those terrorists mullahs, and muslim community blindly followw them. Being a hindu i have heard ramayan and bhagwat gita being addressed by hindu saints with so much politeness and have also heard mullahs reading ( shouting rather ) kuran as if they are encouraging their ppl for some kind of war. |
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ssnkumar 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 26 of 288 ) WELL SAID RACHNA. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 27 of 288 ) Well said, rachna. For all you secular cretins who claimed that Quran preaches tolerance against other religions, here are the verses from the Quran explicitly calling for the death/destruction of non muslims. (chapter:verse) 5:51: ...not to make friendship with the jews and christians. 2:191: ...kill the disbelievers whereever we find them... 9:5: ..fight and slay the pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (this is being done quite well in India with the help of the pseudo-secular hindu cretins) 9:123: ..murder them and treat them harshly 8:39: ...and fight them until there is no more persecution, and religion becomes allah's in its entirety Do you pseudo-secular hindu cretins even have the brains to understand that your own lives and that of your descendants is at stake here?? The common man in most christian countries understands this. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 28 of 288 ) The reason I quote these verses is not because all muslims believe these verses, but that these verses are taught to YOUNGSTERS in various Indian MADRASSAS. This means that the next generation of Indian muslims will be closer to Bin Laden ideologically than the current generation. Unless you are a pseudo-secular cretin, you would realize the danger in this for ALL INDIANS (hindu, christian, and muslim) |
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ssnkumar 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 29 of 288 ) The reason I quote these verses is not because all muslims believe these verses, but that these verses are taught to YOUNGSTERS in various Indian MADRASSAS. This means that the next generation of Indian muslims will be closer to Bin Laden ideologically than the current generation. Unless you are a pseudo-secular cretin, you would realize the danger in this for ALL INDIANS (hindu, christian, and muslim) |
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ssnkumar 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 30 of 288 ) Karapall, I don't think nobody will answer your question. These pseudo-secular so called intellectuals, selfish politicians, and the so called neutral media are hell bent on branding Hindu as communal. Let them do whatever they want. But, their number is very small and they are on the verge of getting uprooted and out of frustration they are trying this as the last resort. History has been a spectator to what muslims have done to us. No explanation is needed for that. The whole world is a witness to what these so called minority muslims have been doing. This won't last long. The Islam has to get liberalized, modernized. Otherwise the whole world will throw away it so that it never returns. The same will hold good for Christianity, if it continues conversions. Let them know that we have not forgotten Goa Inquisition. Hope these Rakshasas of Kaliyuga change for good. |
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vijays 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 31 of 288 ) Hindu Victims in Gujarat Riots Dear Asnani Saheb kindly transmit the following and inform your viewers the truth about Gujarat Riots, particularly about the plight of Hindu victims in private firing by Muslims masjids. Truth About Gujarat Riots All the English so-called National Press and the new TV channels are giving only one side of the Gujarat Riots and are showing only Muslim losses. Classical is an article by Barkha Dutt in the Outlook (March 25,2002) on p. 54. They avoid telling their readers / viewers about more than 10,000 Hindu victims. The last batch of refugees came in on Friday night, 15 March 2002 from Shahpur area. They tried to take shelter in the Civil Hospital, Ahmedabad as they had nowhere else to go. Volunteers later took them to a relief camp set up in a school in the Pritampura Area on Saturday morning (16 March). There seems to be some confusion about the people affected by the riots. You will not find their names in Government rolls because they did not register with the District Collectorate. The riot affected Hindu victims of private firing by Muslim hooligans in the masjids or private homes in Muslim areas, got shelter and support from their own Hindu community members and relatives, rather than the Government aided camps. The relief centres for Hindus in Ahmedabad are in Hiralal ni chawl in Jamalpur ; Nagarvel Hanuman in Bapunagar ; Mangal Park in Amrai Wadi ; Sharyudasji Mandir at Prem Darwaja and Municipal School at Lake Kankaria. Hindus have been blamed more often for actively supporting hooliganism and triggering post-Godhra riots, have actually found themselves at the receiving end. As many as 106 Waghari Hindu families were forced to leave their homes when 2,000-strong crowd torched the 70 pucca houses in Waghari Vas near Pre Darwaja. The Muslim hooligans looted their property, torched houses, desecrated Hindu temples and later tried to kill them but they managed to escape somehow. (Times of India, A'bad edition, 17 March 2002) Thanking you Yours Truly Dadumiya (Dr Damodar V. Nene) Ps: This was found on Usenet. Can anyone confirm its veracity? http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&threadm= a7uh8g%24hmq%40news.or.intel.com&prev=/groups%3Fhl %3Den%26group%3Dsoc.culture.indian |
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luvvmann 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 32 of 288 ) rachna for president. a girl with balls. all those hindu secular motherfuckers wearing bangles go hide your dickles bodies in a hole. fucking imbeciles. |
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manu_z 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 33 of 288 ) manu 28/3/2002 there is nothing like majority and minority because first both the majority and minority are simple human being(insan) so allof us shold act like a insan first then after as a hindu or muslim because as for as i am concern that there is only two fraction i.e right&wrong or justice&unjustice , so every action of man will be judge by god with 100% of justice.irrespective of cast,religion,or any other factor so all of us shoul act according to the will of god and not by our own assumtion. |
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jwalker 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 34 of 288 ) luwmenn, Ha Ha What a fucking joke !! Surely Nazi propaganda did connect with the German feelings, didn't they? But where are the fucking Nazis today? What a great secular country India surely is - with bitches like Modi, who needs Pakistan to cause trouble. Let me ask you ssnkumar, you being such a great patriot where the fuck was the RSS during Kargil? They are such great patriots how is it they did not send anybody to defend the nation especially since there are a lot of Muslims in the Indian Army? And you want to talk about a fucked up game called cricket that has Indian cricketers throwing the matches away for money? Thats a strange way to show your patriotism. Go join your RSS compadres and suck their small dicks. Build sand castles on the beach or play with yourself you miserable turd. |
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ashishs 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 35 of 288 ) Satyamev Jayate Too many people are concerned about minority(muslim) communalism.True, muslims had been more communal than hindus.Infact,the word "communal" was alien to majority of hindus.Muslims had shown separatist tendencies and contempt for other religions.Hinduism is more tolerant and assimilative.BUT the trends are reversing for the last ten years or so. It has been a long time since i heard any muslim leader giving inflammatory(anti hindu) speeches.The wierdest of all was when imam bukhari called for support to afghanistan during the recent spate of american bombings.But that didnt contain any anti hindu element in it.Moreover,i am sure,bulk of muslims dont give a damn to what he says.Another one is geelani of kashmir.But he too speaks in terms of kashmir vs india and not muslims vs hindus.On the other hand there are innumerable hindu leaders of the sangh parivar who,whenever open their mouth,as a rule, speak anti muslim.Muslims are treacherous,separatists,intolerant,cruel,barbars etc.etc.The gujarat riots were a direct result of a long drawn hate campaign of the VHP-B.D. combine. Leaflets are distributed for the economic boycott of muslims....to be contd.. |
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ashishs 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 36 of 288 ) Satyamev Jayate ...contd...There is also great concern about the madarsas funded by middle eastern countries.I dont think that majotrity of muslims admit their children in madarsas.At best the madarsas have their influence in the border regions of rajasthan and kashmir.Most of its students are either from poor or displaced families.The "jehad" mentality of the passouts of such madarsas can be easily crushed by our mighty army.On the other hand a vast majority of middle class hindus are increasingly subscribing to the hindu equivalent of madarsas-RSS funded SARASVATI SHISHU MANDIRS.In this era of globalisation and labour mobility,the SSMs are producing closed,incompetent,reactionary and backward looking people(who as a matter of fact are mostly OBCs) by feeding them doctored history and social science."Greivance hunting" mentality is inculcated in them.Such people who obviously dont get respectable jobs,cuz of their inability to adjust to cosmopolitan enviroment,are then absorbed by RSS itself to preach the ideology of hate and separatism...to be contd... |
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ashishs 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 37 of 288 ) Satyamev Jayate ..contd..Such people have a parochial tendency of looking things as either hindu or antihindu(read muslim) and would like to "react" at every action of muslims which they percieve as giving advantage to muslims even if it is irrelevant to hindus .For example:"india shall be declared as a hindu rashtra just b`coz pakistan is a islamic rashtra".They fail to realize that it is precisely b`coz of this theocratic nature of pakistan,it lags behind india in every aspect.Another one is "if quran is true then astrology is also true" so now the authenticity of astrology depends on quran!!If muslims happen to discard quran then hindus will do the same with astrology,no matter it is true or false!!For everything which is islamic,a hinduism equivalent is created."If muslims do namaz on roads then we shall do mahaarti so that they dont score a point over us".Is this not trivialisation of maha-arti?Does hinduism ,needs for its survival, islam at every step ?It is gradually becoming a third rate imitation of islam....to be contd... |
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ashishs 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 38 of 288 ) Satyamev Jayate ...contd..If someone opposes the introduction of astrology as a science in indian universities,he is labelled as anti hindu.This is a very distructive tendency since it supresses rational voices. This is what happened in afghanistan under taliban regime.The rightist hindus think that hindu extrimism is necessary to balance the muslim one.They cant foresee that its (hindu extremism`s) functoning will not stop once it has checked islamic extremism.It will be like frankenstein`s monster for india.SSMs are gradually pushing into the syllabus the intolerant texts of hinduism like "manusmriti" which has been forgotten by most of hindus by now. Sati,widow remarriage prohibition,child marriage,child sacrifices etc. will be gradually reintroduced in hindu mainstream.And at that time,the now extremist but somewhat intellectual voices will be the moderates and will be labelled "anti-hindus" and will be persecuted.REMEMBER,muslim fundamentalism is quite easy to handle in india but once hindu communalism becomes deep-rooted,it will be like hell to the moderate and progressive hindus (which form more than 75% of the community) just becoz of sheer numbers.Shiv sena`s reaction over "valentine`s day" is just the tip of the iceberg. The RSS bosses(mostly brahmins) themselves know this fact very well and so they never put their children in SSMs but in convents or public schools,who then go abroad,become NRIs and fund this organisation to carry on its hate campaign.In this way the SSMs are another institution of exploitation of lower castes by the brahmins. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 39 of 288 ) jwalker, Cretins like you should think a little before asking "where was RSS during Kargil?". So let me ask you, where the hell was The Catholic Bishop's council during Kargil?? OR for that matter, where were all the mullahs during kargil?? Stupid dipshits like you should, at the very least, be coherent when you argue with your ideological foes!!! Sheesh!! |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 40 of 288 ) ashishs, Imam Bukhari did EXACTLY the opposite of what you claim. HE WARNED the INDIAN GOVERNMENT that they should not assist in the bombing of afghanisthan. At least get your facts straight, you ignorant, bigoted turd. Here is a link that states as much. http://www.khilafah.com/home/category.php? DocumentID=2315&TagID=2 You truly are a lying, bigoted asshole. |
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rachna s 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 41 of 288 ) Karapall for P.M Well said karapall, now let me also add something. Infact RSS wanted to send its men during kargil war, but u fucking chicken shit walker.. u never wanted to know that, isnt it? and we have an army of a million u ass hole, we needed professional army during kargil not amatuers with lot of patriotism. War cannot be won by sacrificing a life but by making enemy sacrifice their life. And i bet if any shortage of men occurs in indian army then RSS would be first to send its men and not your catholic bishops council, who takes lot of pride in calling them self anglo indians with out realising the fact they are calling themself " Bastards". |
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jwalker 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 42 of 288 ) What does the Catholic Bishops or whoever have to do with Kargil? You are the fuckers claiming that you are so "patriotic" apart from some stupid suggestion by an ignoramous idiot telling all Indians are Hindus. You accuse the non-Hindus of being unpatriotic while the fucking RSS did NOTHING. Did they help even one Indian soldier? NO. Is the blood of the Muslim soldier that died for India different in colour from the Hindu soldier? Rachna and the luwmenn do make a good threesome. Throw the chimp (after all humans were once chimps) in the mix, and you will get the Bajrang Dal you motherfucking chooth of a baboon. |
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safize 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 43 of 288 ) dear friends and countrymen.pay all attention to what krbose suggests.think about what karapalls and luvvmans write here.think of the anger it might cause to the muslims who read that.think of the retaliatory messages that are left by those muslims.think of the anger compounded by that among the hindus.think of the mental division that is being created.and then think of the ISI. im a muslim.i thought about it and i have stopped responding to luvvman's abuses thrown at me.that means i wont be contributing to the anger that is sought to be built by these agents of hatred. now u got to think about it too.at stake is our way of life as we lived it all our lives.at stake are the ideals of this country.think about it. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 44 of 288 ) jwalker, You stupid cretin. Civilians are not in the loop of helping soldiers, you brainless piece of shit. That is a job for the army corps. If you have a point to make about patriotism and RSS, try again, and this time, try to be more coherent instead of spitting and pissing all over yourself in impotent rage. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 45 of 288 ) jwalker, Point out the post where I accused non hindus as being traitors, you dishonest, lying piece of shit. If you cannot rebut opinions you dont like with facts, lying about what I said is not an acceptable alternative. Well, you can make false claims about my views, but you can rest assured that I will shove the metaphorical lovenoodle up your nether end. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 46 of 288 ) safize, The mental division already exists, and it is in the best interest of bastards like you to play it down, so that you can continue your shenanigans of pissing off the majority. Well, sorry pal. Bastards like you have gotten away with your scummy tricks for way too long. |
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raul 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 47 of 288 ) Ha! Ha! Its amusing to see how the Karapall's and cohorts get all worked up when confronted with a pointed question. The truth is the RSS and VHP fellers are good at nothing other than killing innocent women and children. Why, they would not have the guts to face a truly non-partisan police force, forget fighting an army. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 48 of 288 ) raul, "Its amusing to see how the Karapall's and cohorts get all worked up when confronted with a pointed question." which would be what? So far, you stupid communist turds have done little else than label me and claim that I am a lot of other people simultaneously. I have some time to waste here, but not THAT much. "Why, they would not have the guts to face a truly non-partisan police force, forget fighting an army." Most people would say that is law-abiding behavior, but somehow stupid turds like you see this as a negative point. In fact, the muslim terrorist turds in India DO FIGHT the police, and you seem to claim that they should be treated as heroes. Wah re wah, what patriotism. |
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raul 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 49 of 288 ) Karapall, the RSS, VHP and Bhajrangdal goons you support are far from law-abiding decent citizens. They are the perpetrators of one of the most heinous crimes committed in India, ie. slaughtering innocent women and children. Who else other than cowards would kill innocent children? |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 50 of 288 ) raul, I am no fan of these groups, but I dont see how barefaced lying such as in your previous post helps matters. Firstly, the RSS has not been involved or implicated in the Gujarat riots. the VHP has been directly implicated and so has bajrang Dal, and SIMI (for Godhra). If you want to be taken seriously, stop lying. It only removes value from whatever truth you might say. Again, I remember a lot of muslim turds yelling bloody murder when the government treated SIMI as a terrorist group. Now, the silence of these very same SIMI (which caused Godhra and is primarily responsible for all the violence in Gujarat) supporters in the Indian left and in the Indian media speaks volumes. Again, if the bastards in the Indian media are not to lose their credibility, they should stop being politically partisan and just do what is right, but unfortunately that will never happen. These bastards are too corrupt to change their ways any time soon. |
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TheTruth 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 51 of 288 ) First of all I want to congratulate all of my fellow Indians for being imbeciles. Someone as illiterate as politicians can divide so called intelligent people along communal lines, while they carry on their systematic looting of this country. Secondly, I want all muslims to take a good look at their own religion go to the website - www.faithfreedom.org (Remember .org) It has been created my ex-muslims who know more about their religion than most. Thirdly, We as a country must realise that hate begets hate, and we musn't allow this to continue, look at Israel and Palestine. Do we want to repeat this forever here!!! All right thinking Indians wake up before its too late to save our Country. Else instead of an India Pak war of Beggars we'll face the really powerful enemy that's China, then no Religion will be able to stop them. Intelligence and Rationality is the real religion. |
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TheTruth 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 52 of 288 ) First of all I want to congratulate all of my fellow Indians for being imbeciles. Someone as illiterate as politicians can divide so called intelligent people along communal lines, while they carry on their systematic looting of this country. Secondly, I want all muslims to take a good look at their own religion go to the website - www.faithfreedom.org (Remember .org) It has been created my ex-muslims who know more about their religion than most. Thirdly, We as a country must realise that hate begets hate, and we musn't allow this to continue, look at Israel and Palestine. Do we want to repeat this forever here!!! All right thinking Indians wake up before its too late to save our Country. Else instead of an India Pak war of Beggars we'll face the really powerful enemy that's China, then no Religion will be able to stop them. Intelligence and Rationality is the real religion. |
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rahulk 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 53 of 288 ) Dont you feel tired screaming abt the iniquities that a common Hindu faces? Now the worst offence someone can get is being called a Hindu. Thanks to our communists, congressmen and the secularists.. Time every Hindu asserted the self-pride. 1.Why do you support a rabidly anti-Hindu, anti-national magazine like Outlook? 2. Why do u read a newspaper, a haven of Hindu-hating traitors, deceivingly called "The Hindu"? 3. Why do you still go for the glorious music imported from that bigoted country, Pakistan? 4. Why is that a rally by a handlful of publicity-hungry intellectuals get full-column coverage, in glowing terms, while every utterance of a national leader is relegated to scorn? Do we suffer from inferiority complex? Are we scared of the other? Think abt this. Think if by buying Outlook and The Hindu and other products we support those who work relentlessly towards destroying hindus. Think, act. I for one, along with my friends have resolved never to buy Outlook or Hindu again. Now, the people who have resolved number over a hundred. Cant you do the same thing? Think. Jai Hind. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 54 of 288 ) TheTruth, Israel is fighting for its survival, and most of my israeli friends were strong supporters of peace and coexistance until 18 months ago, when the palestinians led by this terrorist motherfucker Arafat decide to walk away from peace and chose the path of violence and confrontation. VERY SIMILAR to what the Indian muslims are doing today. The palestinians deserve every little bit of violence that is heaped on them today. |
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luvvmann 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 55 of 288 ) the fact of the matter is that a billion muslims cannot do a damn to israel. why do the muslims misbehave in india. the reason is simple. it is the hindu cowards like pmisra2, ramesh12, and their ilk who are the real problem. their cock sucking attitude encourages the muslims with their fanaticism. as long as we have people like pmishra2, ramesh12, etc. and magazines like outlook the future is bleak for india. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 56 of 288 ) luwmann, Good point. A tiny sliver of a country like israel can keep about 10 islamic states in the neighbourhood pissing in their pants. So much for the bravado of allah's chosen warriors. These cowardly animals in the arab states and their ilk (like pakistan) know little else but pleading for "third party intervention" whenever they are faced with a real adversary. |
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sal 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 57 of 288 ) A tiny sliver of a country?? I suppose the US has nothing to do with them... no backing or support... ...and yet, who is really pissing??? Go to Israel and ask them. Palestinians are the toughest people on the face of this earth. I have tremendous respect for their courage. You have to have "sharm" to call them cowards!!! Gandus like you would've gone running to your mothers... you assholes understand nothing!!! Get some real facts about who the real terrorists are. Here's a link that might help: www.davidduke.com< /a> |
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luvvmann 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 58 of 288 ) sal, if there is anyone who has courage in the middle east it is the israelis. a small country surrounded by a billion muslims ready to push them into the sea. they are fighting with their backs to the wall. the palestinians have a point and the israelis do too. they can live in peace if the arabs want it. but the fact is they don't. the real agenda of the arabs is to finish israel. hence there is no solution. the same with the pakistani suwar ke aulad. these napak janwars gadhe ke land don't want peace and matherchots like you support them, gaddars. the real agenda for pakistan and islam is to finish the hindus. napak janwars will not succeed. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 59 of 288 ) sal, Sure pal, it takes a lot of courage to wear a belt-bomb and kill women and children who are out shopping in a Bakery. WOW!!! What palestinian bravery!! I can see why such "brave" people are your heroes, and I am sure everyone else here does too. One thing confuses me though: when the goons in Gujarat killed women and children, you call it an act of cowardice, but somehow when the palestinians do it, it is an act of heroism. Please do clarify for us mere mortals. I hope you join the brave palestinians one day and blow yourself up in the middle of a classroom with toddlers. We would all be convinced that you were the bravest soul among all of mankind, right there along with Bin Laden. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 60 of 288 ) sal, Israel has kicked the ass of the all the arab neighbours in at least three wars since 1948. So your logic of israelis being scared reminds me of pakistan's logic of how they "actually won" all the wars with India, if it were not for the "devious bania hindoos" (and I quote from paki writers such as Ayaz Amir and Ardeshir Cowasjee who make a point about lying hindoo banias at least once per column). Israel has mandatory army service for all its citizens and they have a HUGE pool of smart people who help in development of ultra-high tech weapons. They also have an active military with a huge military reserve. On the other hand, the stupid arab cretins have been spending a goodly fraction of their petro-dollars on F-16s and other weaponry that they never use, not least because they dont have the brains for strategic thinking and are cowards in the battlefield (which is why most of them use terrorist methods for killing women and children). |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 61 of 288 ) http://headlines.sify.com/815news3.html All you stupid hindu bastards should note this. Muslims say that a mosque once build can never be removed....but of course a temple can not only be destroyed, a mosque must be built over them to show them polytheist stone-believers a thing or two. Wow, such secularism!! |
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sal 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 62 of 288 ) There can never be any peace for the israelis or their supporters as long as there are injustices and attrocities being committed by the zionists towards the poor palestinians. Period. You've seen it happening for decades. It is not a race that's going to take this crap lying down. They fight back with whatever they can, and however they can. What should the people expect of a nation that elects a terrorist as their leader. What is Sharon if not a terrorist? By the way, I was in India just recently and I'm glad to say that you gandus are in the minority. Even the hindus hate people like you. Your types - luwmann and karapal the kalya - are precisely the reason why India has gone to dogs!!! You should know that. Everything that happened in Gujarat has actually had a negative effect on the economy of the whole community. Such idiots - hard to believe. |
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jwalker 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 63 of 288 ) Karappall, Now isn't that one heck of a patriotic gesture - you were sitting at home on your butt when the nation was being attacked and you did not raise a finger to help the poor Indian soldiers' families. They must have taught you well in the Khaki knicker factory. Well Karapall, since you don't have any facts to back up YOUR fucking statements why should I produce my evidence - isn't your support of the RSS/BD/VHP proof enough that their official views are your own? After all, that is how you seem to read the 'secular' statements in this board. So if you are half the man you claim to be, bring your noodle but remember (butt) crack kills - just say no. Would you like your noodle crisp or roasted in your favorite baby oil? |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 64 of 288 ) jwalker: "Now isn't that one heck of a patriotic gesture - you were sitting at home on your butt when the nation was being attacked and you did not raise a finger to help the poor Indian soldiers' families. They must have taught you well in the Khaki knicker factory." Well, well, the mask comes off. Good! Firstly, I did donate generously to the prime minister's fund, not to mention that I have siblings in the army. So I suggest that you stop making assumptions and stop labeling. Maybe your red communist underwear is a little too tight, as it seems to have cut off the blood supply to both the neurons in your brain. My sympathies are with you, pal. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 65 of 288 ) jwalker: "Well Karapall, since you don't have any facts to back up YOUR fucking statements why should I produce my evidence" hey, its no skin off my nose if you want to expose yourself as a lying bonehead. Please feel free to rant incoherently without providing links to certain assertions that seem to contradict reality. I shall stand by an applaud your attempts to make a jackass of yourself. " - isn't your support of the RSS/BD/VHP proof enough that their official views are your own? After all, that is how you seem to read the 'secular' statements in this board. " I only attack the "secular" statements on the board that are blatantly ideologically partisan. If these "secular" posters were even-handed in their criticism of islamic fundamentalists, I certainly give them the benefit of doubt. However, if the "secularists" would like me to believe that hindu fundamentalism is more dangerous than islamic fundamentalism in India, then I KNOW that these "secular" posters are just faking it. |
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TheTruth 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 66 of 288 ) First of all I want to congratulate all of my fellow Indians for being imbeciles. Someone as illiterate as politicians can divide so called intelligent people along communal lines, while they carry on their systematic looting of this country. Can't you'll all read between the lines. This isn't about religion. It's about politics. All it took was a stupid rath yatra to start a chain reaction and supply the opium of the masses - RELIGION. Secondly, I want everyone especially muslims to take a good look at Islam go to the website - www.faithfreedom.org (Remember .org) It has been created my ex-muslims who know more about their religion than most. Thirdly, We as a country must realise that hate begets hate and the country remains blind to its real problems. (POLITICIANS and ILLITERACY) Look at China it's surging ahead in every sphere what religion do they need to make their kind prosperous. Rationalism and Intelligence is the only real religion. Get with it all of you. If you really need to know : There is no God, unless you believe in the Tooth Fairy too.. Give up living for a pipe dream and contribute your bit to society. You don't need religion to tell you that. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 67 of 288 ) TheTruth, This is reality, so face it. No amount of pleading to people hanging around forums such as this will change a damn thing, you might as well get used to that fact. |
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jwalker 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 68 of 288 ) Karapall, Just checking. Good to hear you have some siblings in the armed forces unlike certian individuals on the board who have not contributed anything. As for your rants on this board you have not given any evidence either and in my book that makes you worse than a lying SOB - that is exactly what the bright boys in the RSS/VHP/BD do to confuse the masses. Produce the evidence - do not point me to David Duke's site. And you think Hindu fundamentalism will save the day for India !! Hey the RSS/VHP/BD have engaged only in Hindu fundamentalism so far how are they so different from SIMI and why are they not banned? What is so blatantly partisan about a 'secular' post that condemns Gujarat? Why is it an anthema that Hindu fundamentalism is condemned or that the govt did not do anything to protect the people? In the past, at least the previous govts resigned - this one stays in power even after sinning - thanks to the hold the Hindutva group has over the BJP. There is no difference among the political parties despite the high moral and sanctimonious platitudes you chose to bestow upon your khaki knicker friends. So much for even handedness and justice. Anyway with your nose up the saffron butt, I would wonder if I did find any skin on your nose. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 69 of 288 ) jwalker, You got your wires crossed, pal. I did not refer you to any david duke site. Go back and recheck if you will. Secondly if you want me provide references for anything I said, just asking me specific questions should do the trick, wouldn't you say? If you cannot tell the difference between SIMI, which openly supports Bin Laden, a vicious terrorist, and the VHP which is focussed on the Ayodhya issue, then you are the one with the problem, yes? The problem with all the "secular" posters is that they studiously avoid any mention of the fact that muslims in Godhra burnt women and children without any provocation. Worse still, the "secular" posters seem to think that the Godhra victims bought it on themselves by provoking the muslim community, which is just another way of saying "action equals a stronger reaction". So these "secularists" are just as bad, if not worse than the people who claim that the riots in the rest of Gujarat was a reaction to Godhra. Why dont you just condemn fundamentalism in general, both hindu and islamic, instead of just focussing on hindu fundamentalism? Okay, the govt. was incompetent for sure, but that is nothing new in Indian politics either. Do you mean to say that the Congress party resigned after the anti-sikh riots organized by Congresswallahs?? So quit lying that all previous govts. did so. Cretinous pieces of dinosaur dung like yourself should get a longer attention span and read the posts and pay attention to who is posting what before you fly off the handle and vomit all over your "I am a drunken sod" T-shirt. Now piss off, you pseudo-secular slab of smegma. |
rishi_s 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 70 of 288 )
DEGENERATION OF THE HINDU INTELLECT:The saffron brigade (pseudo hindu)leaders especially the third rate intellectuals of RSS claim that "Ayodhya is to hindus what mecca is to muslims".Lets have a comparison:Hajj is one of the five pillars of islam and every muslim is bound to go to "Mecca" for hajj once in his life time.The same is not true for hindus w.r.t. "ayodhya".Its not a pilgrimage place for hindus.No hindu text makes it compulsory to visit ayodhya once in a life.Infact,ayodhya doesnt even figure in the list of top ten holy places of hindus while mecca is the holiest place of muslims.Interestingly,modern ayodhya owes it`s popularity more to babri masjid than to maryada purushottam Ram-courtsey sangh parivar.The "hajj" equivalent of hindus is CHAAR DHAM YATRA which comprises Badrinath,Kedarnath,Puri and Dwarka.The next in importance are Amarnath and Kailash-Mansarovar.The sangam in Allahabad and the other venues of KUMBH MELA viz.ujjain,nasik and hardwar are other important places of hindu pilgrimage. This is a part of the general reactionary mentality which is been bred in the hindu mainstream by the extremists.It is taking a heavy toll of the hindu logic and rationale.The hitherto broadminded and progressive hindu community is turning into a reactionary,parochial and irrational lot. Some other funny logics are: |
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mumbai02 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 71 of 288 ) sal: "What should the people expect of a nation that elects a terrorist as their leader. What is Sharon if not a terrorist? " I have seen sensible posts from you about this issue. But you forget that Israelis elected Sharon after the Palestinians started this Intifada while Barak was PM. Sharon campaigned claiming that he could bring security to Israel. That he failed in his attempt is another matter. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 72 of 288 ) rishi_s, "Hajj is one of the five pillars of islam and every muslim is bound to go to "Mecca" for hajj once in his life time.The same is not true for hindus w.r.t. "ayodhya".Its not a pilgrimage place for hindus.No hindu text makes it compulsory to visit ayodhya once in a life." No hindu text makes believing in god compulsory, so are you saying that hindu temples can then be overridden by mosques, because former does not mandate a temple for prayer and the latter does?? Also, upto now you seemed to claim (somewhere in all the anti-hindu venom and vitriol) that the RSS and VHP are a minority and are irrelevant. But now, the last statement in your previous post claims exactly the opposite. Care to share with us why this change of mind (and I use that term loosely)?? Just curious. Long live Peace, love, and brotherhood. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 73 of 288 ) rishi_s, Talking of degeneration of intellect, I suggest that you not extend your mental inadequacies to the overall hindu population. If you think that "hindu intellect"can be saved only by them rolling over and dying for the betterment of the muslim community, then your intellect has probably degenerated beyond repair. The current trend in hindu fundamentalism is a symptom of growing discontent among the hindu community and must be treated as such. The people who need to step back and reexamine their strategy are the so-called muslim leaders; these bastards are at the root of India's communal problems. These "muslim leaders" have provided legitimacy to the views of assholes like Bal Thackeray and his ilk. Stupid self-serving bastards who want to tell the hindus to go back to their previously docile state must get a brain cell or two and see the big picture. |
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jwalker 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 74 of 288 ) "If you cannot tell the difference between SIMI, which openly supports Bin Laden, a vicious terrorist, and the VHP which is focussed on the Ayodhya issue, then you are the one with the problem, yes?.... Why dont you just condemn fundamentalism in general, both hindu and islamic, instead of just focussing on hindu fundamentalism? " Now I am supposed to choose between the devil and deep sea and decide for myself which is a better choice - what a wonderful argument. Here is my choice - I don't want fundamentalism in the country. But you would know that if you had read my posts. Unlike your 'Hindutva' views that pits Hindu fundamentalism against Islamic fundamenatalism, or rationalizes one with the other, I don't want either of them in the country. Kapisch? "The problem with all the "secular" posters is that they studiously avoid any mention of the fact that muslims in Godhra burnt women and children without any provocation." Now we have a classic time tested saffron argument - if you had thrown the first stone - it must be your fault. Wouldn't that rationalize the Gujarat pogrom? What would constitute a "provocation" in your book? Would it be a "provocation" if the karsevaks misbehaved with the muslim vendors? Would it be a "provocation" if a muslim crowd took out a procession through a Hindu locality or would it be a "provocation" if the police just stood by with a complacent Gujarat govt and watched the Muslims burn? One set of standards for one community and another for a different community - so much for your 'even handedness'. "Okay, the govt. was incompetent for sure, but that is nothing new in Indian politics either....Do you mean to say that the Congress party resigned after the anti-sikh riots organized by Congresswallahs??" Read your first statement and then with such low expectations you should not expect the Congress to quit either - one yardstick to measure the Congress, the commies and the 'secular traitors' and another to measure the saffron crowd. But you do know there is a significant difference between the Sikh riots and the Gujarat riots (post-Godhra), don't you? "Cretinous pieces of dinosaur dung like yourself should get a longer attention span and read the posts and pay attention to who is posting what before you fly off the handle and vomit all over your "I am a drunken sod" T-shirt. Now piss off, you pseudo-secular slab of smegma." You must seriously consider following your above advice? May I add that smegma is too clinical, in future, please insert a more appropriate word, and perhaps you should use it to smack some sense into that saffron-coloured butt of yours that enjoys the RSS dick so much - after all that is where your brains appear to be these days. Of course, your favourite baby oil would be more pleasant. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 75 of 288 ) josh: "I don't want either of them in the country. Kapisch?" Then maybe you should rant about religious fundamentalism in general instead of hindu fundamentalism alone while downplaying islamic fundamentalism. kapisch?? Your posts do not reflect your sentiments above, asshole, that is the problem. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 76 of 288 ) josh: "Now we have a classic time tested saffron argument - if you had thrown the first stone - it must be your fault.Wouldn't that rationalize the Gujarat pogrom? What would constitute a "provocation" in your book? " Clearly, kar sevaks yelling jai shri ram and actually supporting tthe ayodhya movement is provocation enough for YOU. THOSE ARE YOUR STANDARDS. By my standards, you need to commit bodily harm in order to call something a "provocation". Was that clear enough for you?? "One set of standards for one community and another for a different community - so much for your 'even handedness'." Clearly, you did not even know what my definition of "provocation" was, so how would you know I was even-handed or not in my comments, pal?? Just making it up as you go along, I presume. Well done. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 77 of 288 ) jwalker: "Read your first statement and then with such low expectations you should not expect the Congress to quit either - one yardstick to measure the Congress, the commies and the 'secular traitors' and another to measure the saffron crowd." There IS such a thing as precedents, pal. YOU were claiming that the BJP MUST resign for being so incompetent in Gujarat as a matter of policy. I just pointed out that there is a precedent for not resigning. Did that get through you thick skull this time around, or is the whisky still clouding your brain. " But you do know there is a significant difference between the Sikh riots and the Gujarat riots (post-Godhra), don't you?" Oh really?? Are you trying to tell me that the delhi administration and delhi politicians and cops did not play a big role in the killing of sikhs, but that was not so this time around?? Please do expound on how murder by hindus is much more cruel than murder by congresswallahs. I am sure it should enlighten all of us wallowing in darkness. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 78 of 288 ) jwalker: "You must seriously consider following your above advice? May I add that smegma is too clinical, in future, please insert a more appropriate word,...[incoherent diatribe expunged]" Firstly, smegma is in the dictionary, dumbass. Secondly, even if I accept your contention that it is a "clinical" term, there is no rule stating that posts must only stick to non clinical terms. Now, go back to molesting you sister or one of your other hobbies, and collect yourself before you start posting again. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 79 of 288 ) http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Articleshow.asp ?art_id=7548296 All whisky drinking imbeciles should pay some attention to this bit of news that India is most vulnerable to "External threats". Guess what threat they are talking about?? |
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jwalker 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 80 of 288 ) Karapall: "Then maybe you should rant about religious fundamentalism in general instead of hindu fundamentalism alone while downplaying islamic fundamentalism. kapisch?? Your posts do not reflect your sentiments above, asshole, that is the problem." Read my posts. I DO rant about religious fundamentalism. But if you do not know or care to read my posts, the problem is with you, isn't it? Please point me to the post that supported or pitted one against the other. jwalker's posts: Terrorists at the NCERT: 3/11/2002 3:41:14 AM ( # 10 of 11 ) ..The BJP/RSS/VHP/SIMI must be banned. Lawlessness and those who promote it must be dealt with harshly - they are traitors and the world is better off with them dead than alive... Should Md Azam Khan be tried for treason? 3/23/2002 9:30:08 PM ( # 1 of 4 ) ...Yes - if by the same yardstick, the RSS/VHP are banned and anyone participated in Gujarat riots tried for treason, the Gujarat Government is also tried for treason as are all perpetrators of crimes that divide India (like Godhra), pit one religion against another and one caste against another or one language against another. Let us show no favouritism in applying the law... |
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jwalker 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 81 of 288 ) "Clearly, kar sevaks yelling jai shri ram and actually supporting tthe ayodhya movement is provocation enough for YOU. THOSE ARE YOUR STANDARDS. By my standards, you need to commit bodily harm in order to call something a "provocation". Was that clear enough for you??" So you claim that a bunch of Muslims can go to a Hindu temple and shout Allah o Akbar and they wouldn't be 'provoking' the Hindus or that a bunch of Hindus can go to a mosque and shout "Jai Shri Ram" and they wouldn't be 'provoking' the Muslims. Or in a more hypothetical situation, you have a person waving a sword at you menacingly but you will not take a defensive stance, because he is not "provoking" you. So if you do defend yourself, by causing bodily harm to your assailant, YOU have "provoked" him and not the other way. That is a strange STANDARD for "provocation". And by your very statement, you have acknowledged that different people have different standards for provocation. So your original claim that the Godhra massacre happened "without any provocation" is also clouded by YOUR STANDARD of provocation which happens to be different from everybody else's standard. And obviously, since your STANDARD meets the prevalent Hindutva view, you MUST BE RIGHT. Is that your argument? "One set of standards for one community and another for a different community - so much for your 'even handedness' Clearly, you did not even know what my definition of "provocation" was, so how would you know I was even-handed or not in my comments." From your previous posts, your 'even handedness' is a sham and your subsequent comments have just endorsed my view. |
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jwalker 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 82 of 288 ) "There IS such a thing as precedents, pal. YOU were claiming that the BJP MUST resign for being so incompetent in Gujarat as a matter of policy. I just pointed out that there is a precedent for not resigning." Well you do agree the BJP said it was a party with a difference. I am merely pointing out that the BJP is NOT DIFFERENT from the rest of the political parties despite all your posts whitewashing it. I also pointed out that there IS a precedence FOR resigning - a course the BJP never adopted despite it being the right thing to do. Besides, my original sentence was that "In the past, at least the previous govts resigned - this one stays in power even after sinning - thanks to the hold the Hindutva group has over the BJP." The words "MUST" and "policy" were NEVER part of the original post and is part of your interpretation of the statement. Didn't you claim in the 'Should Md. Azam Khan be tried for treason' thread that elected officials must be held to higher standards? Here is the post, to jog your memory: 3/25/2002 11:02:12 PM ( # 1 of 10 ) safize, Alam khan is an elected official and must be held to higher standards. "Please do expound on how murder by hindus is much more cruel than murder by congresswallahs." Are you claiming that Congresswallahs are not Hindus? Didn't the BJP provide the perfect excuse for all massacres - it was a popular reaction of the people and reflected the true sentiments of the masses? So what's a human life worth to these politicians - we have a billion to choose from a few thousand here and there will not tilt the balance. Besides its a great form of reducing the population growth. |
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jwalker 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 83 of 288 ) "smegma is in the dictionary, dumbass" So you do know how to use a dick-tionary. And because it is 'clinical', it shouldn't be in the dictionary? My my, aren't we educated. I knew you were a peckerhead, Karapall it does take a peckerhead to identify smegma. Now you shouldn't keep it all in the family, Karapall - go out, spread the love, smegma and smell the cunt while you are at it. I know for guys like you, with Khakhi knickers, pretty mouth, it would be tough to find a baby girl these days, Heh? |
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jwalker 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 84 of 288 ) "Guess what threat they are talking about??" The invasion of India by Johnny Walker? |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 85 of 288 ) jwalker: "So you claim that a bunch of Muslims can go to a Hindu temple and shout Allah o Akbar and they wouldn't be 'provoking' the Hindus or that a bunch of Hindus can go to a mosque and shout "Jai Shri Ram" and they wouldn't be 'provoking' the Muslims. " Let us maintain some focus here, shall we? We are specifically talking about provocation that can legitimately result in bodily harm to the provocators. In both of the instances above, neither party has the right to kill or otherwise cause bodily harm NO MATTER HOW PROVOKED they are?? Did that get through your thick skull?? If not, let me know and I will repeat it. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 86 of 288 ) jwalker: "So you do know how to use a dick-tionary. And because it is 'clinical', it shouldn't be in the dictionary?" You really need to lay off the sauce in order to become a little more coherent, you recto-cranial invert. The dictionary contains words in common english usage, and clinical terms do not come under "common english usage". Now, be a nice boy and go lick your wounds in the corner. Take a deep breath and wipe all the white froth dripping down the side of your mouth. Who knows, santa might come by with the alcohol suppositories this christmas if you are a good little kid. Now, shoo. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 87 of 288 ) jwalker wanks off from the pulpit: "Read my posts. I DO rant about religious fundamentalism. But if you do not know or care to read my posts, the problem is with you, isn't it?" Your post does no such thing, so quit lying, you brainless turd. Your posts have an avowedly politically partisan as can be seen from the fact that you lump the SIMI with the BJP. It is quite clear that you dont have the brains to make a legitimate argument or point without resorting to meaningless hyperbole and airheaded incoherence. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 88 of 288 ) jwalker: "Well you do agree the BJP said it was a party with a difference. I am merely pointing out that the BJP is NOT DIFFERENT from the rest of the political parties despite all your posts whitewashing it." And the pop star Madonna sometimes claims that she is a virgin, so what is your freaking point, asshole? Political parties make all sorts of arbitrary claims that have no connection with reality, like the congress claiming that it is the sole custodian of Indian secularism. What do you expect?? The BJP to claim that it is not a party with a difference in all their PR charades?? Do explain. |
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jwalker 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 89 of 288 ) "Your post does no such thing, so quit lying, you brainless turd. Your posts have an avowedly politically partisan as can be seen from the fact that you lump the SIMI with the BJP." Yeah, right. Prove it, bitch. Ha Ha.. And YOUR posts are the "paragon of political rationality", the "epitome of patriotism". Ha Ha.... Go ahead call me a 'lying, brainless turd' again - you are beginning to sound like a stuck anus on an RSS dick, hmmm that would make you a 'smegma'. Soon you will be walking and wonking like Vajpayee - bowlegged with Khaki knickers. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 90 of 288 ) jwalker, "..prove it, bitch..." tsk, tsk, a pathetic display of incoherence. All anyone has to do is read your "well balanced post against religious fundamentalism" to realize that you are a incoherent moron who probably cannot tie his own shoelaces, never mind express himself coherently. By the way, you might want to look up the meaning of smegma, unless you insist on making a total arse of yourself in public. Also, "wonking" is not a word ("wonky" is)..just FYI. |
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ramesh12 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 91 of 288 ) Karapall, You moterfucker seem to be everywhere spreading your hatred!I was so much fed up of your hatred and your twisted logic on "riots after riots" that I statrted looking for some other forums but u seem to have no life, and frustrated gandu. You bastard are one heck of a frustrated creep, with one agenda……muslim hatred. You support killing of innocents and you are an antinational bastard and should be burnt alive so that you know how it feels to be burnt alive. India would be so much better off without you and luvvman! |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 92 of 288 ) It is hilarious to note that I have been talking about fundamentalist muslims, which according to ramesh12 means "all muslims". I dont know about all you folks but that smacks of anti-muslim bigotry on ramesh12's part. Well, IMHO, ramesh12 sure deserves next year's darwin awards. I am positive that he will make a contribution to the human gene pool by eliminating himself from it thanks to his immense stupidity. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 93 of 288 ) ramesh12: "You support killing of innocents and you are an antinational bastard and should be burnt alive so that you know how it feels to be burnt alive." tsk, tsk, such bare-faced lying. Care to be more specific as to which post of mine carried such views?? Oh, wait, I forget, this is the usual hyperbole you indulge in when you have been exposed as an ignorant, bigoted, and violent, Bukhari loving scumbag. Never mind. Please carry on. |
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munna 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 94 of 288 ) Guys, Have seen this message board for the first time today. You all seem to more or less be talking the same language. But why so much animosity. I think it would be more constructive if you tried to avoid getting so personal and derogatory. |
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jwalker 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 95 of 288 ) "tsk, tsk, a pathetic display of incoherence [etc.. rant]" Good show bud. Cannot find a "rational" rebuttal ? What's the deal, you at a loss for words or in a mood for some "smegmacious" humour? You must have learnt one new word today..."incoherence" Oh and "wonk". Glad to see an improvement in your vocabulary. Ohh yes.. "smegma" as in "Aren't your posts smegmacious?" or to your fucked up partner "Come hither, honey and let me suck your smegma" - that would make your partner's day !! And since you couldn't figure out the meaning of 'clinical' or 'smegma', I have added that too... smegma - The matter secreted by any of the sebaceous glands. Specifically: (a) The soapy substance covering the skin of newborn infants. (b) The cheesy, sebaceous matter which collects between the glans penis and the foreskin. (c) A sebaceous secretion, especially the cheesy secretion that collects under the prepuce or around the clitoris. - More evidence that Karapall is a child molester and a cocksucker. clinical - adj. (a)devoid of emotion; (b)Suggestive of a medical clinic; austere and antiseptic: a clinical style of decor. (c) Of, relating to, or connected with a clinic. (d)Involving or based on direct observation of the patient: a clinical diagnosis. And "clinical" words are not in the dictionary? Ha Ha... So much for looking up your "dick-tionary". ["looking up" (meaning "refer") not putting your head between your legs and watching your arse turn red from the dick in your butt. And no, that is not the meaning of "re-butt-al" either; but it may be - in YOUR book.] |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 96 of 288 ) munna, This animosity directly translates to the real world, when you compare the frothing-at-the-mouth rants of pseudo-secular assholes who want to tacitly support islamic fundamentalism in India. Might as well get all the poison out so that people get to know who their enemies are.... |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 97 of 288 ) jwalker, Wow, I seem to have accidentally triggered off your smegma fixation!! Well, as they say, it takes all kinds.... |
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munna 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 98 of 288 ) Karapall, I am a Muslim myself and I certainly do not support Islamic fundamentalism in India or anywhere for that matter. No right minded Muslim should be doing that as much as all right minded Hindus who should see and probably are seeing the vote-politics behind this culture of hatred being perpetrated by Bajrang Dal, Shiv Sena and VHP. |
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luvvmann 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 99 of 288 ) munna, agreed and support your views. i do not agree with your vote catching inference though. that is deceptive. the vote catching was started by the muslim league and then perfected by the congress. your selective criticism is open to ridicule. the organizations mentioned are new and a reaction to the politics of the muslim league etc. and the congress/communist bastards. sorry i do not agree with your premise. one sided bullshit will not work. if you want to get rid of the shiv sena etc. first eloimnate the muslim league, majlis etc. contro, pakistan's treachery, condemn it and eliminate it. then see if the shiv sena exists. we can talk about atht at that time. first things first. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 100 of 288 ) munna: "No right minded Muslim should be doing that as much " Right minded muslims should come out in the open and state their views in such cases, failing which they have no one else to blame but themselves. If such muslims dont do what is right and fair in their own interests, you can be damn sure nobody else will!! All these pseudo-secular pricks have NO INTEREST in the welfare of muslims (as can be seen from the way the congress party ensured that Gujarati muslims did not take the board exam which is definitely against the interest of these muslim youngsters and the muslim community). Vote-bank politics existed only for minority community politics so far. The "secular" parties now seem to realize that a majority vote-bank would seriously threaten their own dirty communal politics. |
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munna 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 101 of 288 ) karapall,luwmann, Let me address Luwmanns question first. Rest assured that I am against FUNDAMENTALISM. - whether it is Hindu or Muslim. I personally feel, Islamic fundamentalism has harmed and is harming Muslims more than it can possibly harm you. Secondly, you are right when you say that these Hindu fundamentalist parties are a reaction to partisan politics of parties like the congress. True, but that does not justify their culture of hatred and non-constitutional activities. That way, we shall end up in anarchy. We have a legal and constitutional system (however slow) in place. Let us all use that machinery to address our grievances. Thirdly, about the Muslim League and the Majlis. I have grown up in Maharashtra and have worked for a few years in MP. I have never in my life so far come across any Muslim League or 'Majlis' - I have heard about the IUML and that's how much my knowledge is about these organizations. As for our friend Mr Bukhari, pl try to understand one thing and this is very IMPORTANT - Most non-muslims mikstake the Muslim community as ONE entity, which is about the biggest mistake one can make. Assume me treating the entire Hindu community as one entity ! It's absurd. Bukhari is important only to Delhi and parts of UP. (and that too amongst a few). So for a person like me who reads and writes in Marathi (but does not know Urdu/Arabic), a North Indian Muslim is as alien as a Punju/Gujju/Mallu, etc. We would not marry amongst each other, cannot communicate with each other and DO NOT FOLLOW the same customs. More later.. |
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luvvmann 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 102 of 288 ) munna, you are a sensible man. i am not religious fundamentalist myself. the shiv sena etc. are a direct result of the muslim league/congress politics. the IUML is strong in kerala. the MIM is strong in hyderabad. the al umma now banned, the anjuman now banned all have their following. that is not the point. the point is the muslims as a group always present a picture of communalism and separate identity. they have to have muslim parties, muslim organizations, muslim laws and ok everything muslim. nothing wrong with that, maybe. if the hindus or the christians were to do the same thing what will happen. we cannot have that. india's constitution is great. hindus by and large are secular. they live in peace as far as religion goes. they are not perfect, but who is. we have an open society, muslims are equal partners in india. they should shun their mentatlity, condemn paksitan for its activities, condemn al qaeda for threatening india, condemn the islamic terrorists in kashmir. but they don't do that. silence is acquience. that is the problem. if people like you and that other sensible muslim anwarsad take the lead and condemn islamic extremism the problem will be solved overnight. the real villians are not the poor muslims or hindus, it is the muslim elite that is misleaading the community, the secular fanatics among hindus who hate themselves, and the communists who hate everybody except the rotting fish they eat. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 103 of 288 ) munna: "We have a legal and constitutional system (however slow) in place. Let us all use that machinery to address our grievances." Nonsense. If that was the case the courts would have solved the ayodhya problem long back. The fact is that unless the laws are changes, the court system will continue to be overwhelmed. With 2 crore pending cases in the judicial system, there is no practical value in your above strategy. The fact is that there is zero WORKING machinery to expedite these cases, not least because civil laws are so damned complicated. If this situation is improved, I would agree with you. But at this point in time, a non working justice system forces many people to take the law into their own hands, unjustifiable as it is to do so. |
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munna 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 104 of 288 ) K, If we tacitly support people taking the law into their own hands out of frustration, we are making a dangerous statement. That indirectly implies that people can rape/kill/physically harm others if justice has been denied to them over a certain period of time. Does that sound ok ? My friend, how safe would you feel in this kind of a setup (say like Gujarat ) ? |
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jbindra 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 105 of 288 ) We shall overcome. Mr. Luvman knows no love, leave alone the virtues of common sense The RSS and the likes (Muslim, Sikh all included) are nothing but organizations who thrive on hatred. Much like the Third Reich. There motivation is not to protect the common man, but to use them for their own interests. Give them a chance and they'll cannibalise their own Hindu brothers beginning with the lower castes. Know this, perhaps it may be hard for you to accept - that no Indian citizen owes its well being to communal minded people, be it from the majority or minority. If indeed the bulk of people were so bad, all the moghuls would have killed all the Hindus and then the British all the non Christians. Indians are sensible people and need no lessons in morality from heartless knicker sporting people baking maniacs. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 106 of 288 ) jbindra, "If indeed the bulk of people were so bad, all the moghuls would have killed all the Hindus and then the British all the non Christians." They converted them to islam, you stupid turd. How else do you think that a good part of India is muslim? Do try to use your brains when you write. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 107 of 288 ) munna, "If we tacitly support people taking the law into their own hands out of frustration, we are making a dangerous statement." People dont need your support or mine to take the law into their own hands -- that is the point. The only think that can check such behavior is a working justice system, and civilians/politicians/Indians who actually believe enough in the justice system to let them handle matters. Unless this systemic problem is fixed, nothing you or I say or think will make even a shred of difference. "That indirectly implies that people can rape/kill/physically harm others if justice has been denied to them over a certain period of time. Does that sound ok ? " No, not "implies that people can kill/rape", but "implies that people WILL kill/rape" if the Indians state cannot get it together to have a working justice system. How many of the secular patriots you see here are fighting for such issues??? All of them like the whole "communal issue" cause it is an easy strawman on which you can blame all ills of society....until the next communal riot. |
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munna 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 108 of 288 ) Karapall, The intrinsic issue here is, 'Are you justified in harming me or my child just because I was born a Muslim based on the premise that my coreligionists committed crimes thousands of years ago ? Would there be any justification for ME to harm YOU because another person from your religion has done me wrong ?' |
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luvvmann 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 109 of 288 ) munna, your analogy is not correct at all. first off, the crimes committed that you refer to are hundreds of years old, not thousands. just as the lower hindu classes are provided justice by law (affirmative action), the wrongs committed by the muslim invaders also need correction. this will go a long way in forging national unity. the behavior of the muslim community in the past 50-100 years is nothing to cheer about. in the past 25 years it has become even worse. it is not getting better by any means. jehadi mentality, anti-kafir sentiments are not decreasing, they are only increasing. it is getting more and more violent, not only in india but around the world. just like the upper class hindus need to pay for their past bad behavior, the muslims also need to pay for their past and "present" bad behavior. i don't see anything wrong with that. |
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luvvmann 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 110 of 288 ) munna, no one is justified in hurting and killing innocents. all criminals in gujarat including the godhra criminals need to be punished. but look at the behavior of our secular personalities. example - shabana azmi (the great hypocrite). she seems to think muslim lives are more precious than hindu lives. she weeps and performs dharnas when muslims are killed. did she do this when hindus were killed. no way. she hardly blinked an eyelid. this is why there is a great problem. the secularists are not secular, they are anti-hindu. they hide their hatred in clever ways. sorry, i do not support your views at all. |
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munna 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 111 of 288 ) luwmann, like i said, shed the rhetoric. where is your point ? which view of mine do you not support ? forget shabana azmi and others for a minute. tell me what YOU feel. |
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jbindra 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 112 of 288 ) We shall overcome. Munna: What you said is absolutely right. The lower castes were treated beyond human dignity and they need the protections to be self sufficient. For Hindus and Muslims, no such case exists as they have lived as equals until the partition and the division of the nation. As for Mr. Luvvmans criticism of Ms. Azmi. Well if she's a hypocrite so are the people who's idealogy you bathe in. Did anyone RSS, VHP or the Bajrang Dal deplore what happened to the Muslims of Gujarat. Mind you these very the very same people who after Indira Gandhi's assination went about killing Sikhs. They are just brutal murderers and criminals who hide their hatred in clever ways - in the garb of religion. Has anyone apologised for that ? When they are willing to do so and make up for all the desecrated churches, gurudwaras and mosques then come to us. A beginning needs to be made and it needs to be made now. The past is behind us, we should only take lessons from it and learn that divisive attitudes never bring properity to any community or nation. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 113 of 288 ) "Are you justified in harming me or my child just because I was born a Muslim based on the premise that my coreligionists committed crimes thousands of years ago ? " This is NOT WHAT is being discussed, so while the answer to this question is clearly "no", it is irrelevant. What is being discussed is MUSLIM BEHAVIOR TODAY! Muslim groups have been consistenly killing and maiming hindus and other non muslims. Why do you think that the only state that is muslim, i.e., kashmir, is the ONLY state to have actual ethnic cleansing of all non muslims. Muslims like you did not seem to have a problem with that. But NOW that you are being ethincally cleansed from other states, you have the audacity to claim that hindus are more communal than muslims. You argument and attitude stinks. "Would there be any justification for ME to harm YOU because another person from your religion has done me wrong ?" Of course not, but that is hardly the point, is it?? The point is HOW DO WE LOWER TEMPERATURES ALL AROUND and try to get a dialogue going between hindus and muslims. As long as muslims like you think that they do not have to respect the sensitivities of the hindu majority, and can depend on the justice system to counteract any communal ill-will towards their community from the majority, you will be in for a rude shock. Why?? There is no such thing as a working justice system in India. It is upto muslims to make themselves heard and understood as being tolerant and non communal. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 114 of 288 ) jbindra: " Did anyone RSS, VHP or the Bajrang Dal deplore what happened to the Muslims of Gujarat. Mind you these very the very same people who after Indira Gandhi's assination went about killing Sikhs" So the BJP was responsible for the killing of sikhs in 1984?? How interesting. Now, tell me, when was Bhagat Singh or Jagdish Tytler (the main accused in the 1984 riots) a part of the BJP?? Just curious. |
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jbindra 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 115 of 288 ) We shall overcome. Karapall : Lets not twist the point. Did anyone RSS, VHP or the Bajrang Dal deplore what happened to the Muslims of Gujarat ? is as relevant a question. As far as the Sikh massacre is concerned, I meant people who shared the same hate propaganda as these groups. It was the Congress then, its the BJP now. The Congress killed Sikhs, the BJP kills Muslims. So answer my question and dont be a shrewd and clever twister of words. The point here is simply this "Did your political ideals apologise and feel sorry for that ? Did they promise to undo the damage ?" NO THEY DID NOT, so why expect the other side to be any more philanthropic than yourself. |
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mumbai02 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 116 of 288 ) luvvmann post #109 and 110 I dont agree that Muslims today should pay a price for what Muslim invaders did hundreds of years ago. The analogy with providing reservations for lower castes is not really correct. In many parts of India the condition and living standards of upper castes are much better compared to that of the lower castes. The reservations were a way of providing more opportunities to lower castes which they wouldnt have had otherwise. Without reservations job/higher education will be completely dominated by upper castes. You are right - the upper castes who dont have reservations suffer quite a bit because of this. But the effects of reservations will be even lower with decreasing hiring by the govts and an increasing number of jobs in the private sector. When you say Muslims need to pay for their past - in what way ? I dont think Muslims have an upper hand in any sector in India. They themselves and their leadership and those who treated them as vote banks are mostly to blame for this. But I dont agree that they need to pay for what Muslims invaders did hundreds of years ago. And about Shabana Azmi - I dont see why you call her a hypocrite. I remember she criticized Bukhari for supporting Taleban during the US attacks in Oct/Nov 2001. And there is nothing wrong with her taking out marches in support of Gujarat Muslims. And all this sympathy for Kashmiri Hindus now ? Did any Hindu (including VHP and BJP and RSS) worry about them 5 years back ? If yes, why did most people not hear about it ? And what did they do about these refugees, how were they helped. The plight of Kashmiri Hindus cannot be used as a justification for the attack on Gujarati Muslims and for saying that Shabana Azmi has not right to support Gujarati Muslims. |
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luvvmann 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 117 of 288 ) jbindra, you are not only wrong but also a liar. the BJP and the RSS killed sikhs according to you. well i have some news for you. the RSS has the highest regard for the sikhs. it would love all the hindus to be like sikhs. so don't fucking lie. i know you are a sikh by your writing. the sikhs were established as a bridge between the hindus and muslims. what happened. pretty soon it became an enemy of islam and a friend of the hindus. infact, all sikhs are descended from the hindus. why is that. what happened in delhi was not a hindu-sikh problem. it was plain congress goondagiri. the BJP and RSS people protected the sikhs. rajiv gandhi justified the killings " when a big tree falls the earth shakes". as for gujarat it was plain communal frenzy from two sides. the muslims always start communal riots in india. there is no doubt about that. hindus retaliate and there is animal frenzy. it has nothing to do with modi, vhp, rss, etc. there is a long term schism between the communities and communal riots occur. animal passion takes over and there are atrocities on both sides. who is to blame. the real culprits are jehadi muslims who will never live in peace with anybody, and the vily motherfucking hindu opportunists of the congress and the frustrated commie motherfuckers and athiests who hate the hindus. if you ban the congress and communist parties and the jehadi mulahs there will be peace in india. |
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luvvmann 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 118 of 288 ) mumbai, you are twisting my words without understanding them. 1. shabana azmi is a communal bitch garbed in the mantle of secularism. she criticised bukhari and the taliban out of compulsion. she has not criticised jehadi activity in india at any time. she did not support the ban on SIMI and rabid muslim organisations. i don't believe her at all. she is a fake and an opportunist. |
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luvvmann 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 119 of 288 ) mumbai, 2. i did not say that the muslims absolutely have to pay for the past wrong doings of the conquerors. i said their behavior for the past 50-100 years has been fairly questionable and in the past 25 years has taken increasingly aggressive and violent tones. this has created a hindu backlash. a gesture of returning very holy hindu sites by the muslims themselves will create brotherhood. then muslims can hang their heads high and hindus can never again accuse them of destroying temples, which is a fact. the reason for the hindu backlash and demands ae a direct result of muslim misbehavior and congress/communist treachery. the latter parties (full of hindus) are the real reason for the current turmoil. the communists are totally on the fringe in india and frustrated, hence their revenge on the hindus. this is a solution for peace. return the holy lands and temples and forge a new bond of brotherhood. if current trends of the jehadis and the congress/communist parties continues, we will have bloodshed. gujarat is nothing. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 120 of 288 ) jbindra "Did your political ideals apologise and feel sorry for that ? Did they promise to undo the damage ?" NO THEY DID NOT" Unlike you, I am no imbecile to believe in promises made by politicians. I prefer to see their action and their policies and evaluate them based on my code of ethical behavior. Only idiots like you seem to think that flowery political speeches, like those assholes in the congress party make very often after every crisis, is no substitute for good politics and good governance. The BJP has definitely acted responsibly in its role as the ruling party. While the congress might think that this is an excellent time to commit some demagoguery to win votes, I believe that such an attitude reeks of irresponsible behavior, not to mention that they have essentially scuttled any discussion on the BUDGET!! because embarrassing the govt. with their daily walkouts was more of a priority. |
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jwalker 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 121 of 288 ) "Unlike you, I am no imbecile to believe in promises made by politicians. I prefer to see their action and their policies and evaluate them based on MY code of ethical behavior...The BJP has definitely acted responsibly in its role as the ruling party." What is YOUR code of ethical behaviour? Given the situation in Gujarat and YOUR code of ethical behaviour and YOUR view of BJP's handling of the crisis, would YOU vote the BJP to power again? Do give reasons with meanings in YOUR dictionary of the words "ethical", "responsibly" and "definitely". |
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luvvmann 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 122 of 288 ) jwalker, let me comment. first, the BJP is not responsible for the Gujarat riots. second, it is difficult to control large crowds that were genuinely mad. third, the situation in gujarat is a direct result of encouragement to muslim extremism from the congress, resulting in a hindu backlash. this cycle will gain enormous momentum if the congres/communist monkeys persist in their stupid and opportunistic behavior. |
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luvvmann 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 123 of 288 ) jwalker, question - if the BJP has performed well or governed well. NO, not by a long shot. the problem with the BJP is that it has compromised it's ideals for the sake of coalition politics. it has been forced to do so. however, a greater leadership would not have done that. vajpayee and advani have failed to lead the party correctly. the fundamental principles of the BJP are correct. their compromise of those principles is wrong. the principles are as follows 1. secularism as defined by the congress and communist parties is a fake and should be redefined 2. a common civil code in india is required for strengthening democracy and controlling muslim extremism 3. strong action against pakistan for encouraging terrorism in india (WAR only solution) 4. strong action against internal enemies - muslim extremism, communist insurgency, separatist agitaions ex. assam 5. decentralization of power and encouragement to local government and internal democracy - strong panchayat raj 6. privatisation with a human face to increase productivity 7. establishment of a sphere of indian influence to protect india's interests comensurate with it's size. The BJP has failed to articulate these basic principles. If it continues with the present course the BJP will be wiped out and we wil be back to the familiar congress/communist non-sense. the choice is with the rank and file of the party to force it's leadership to go back to the real policies of the BJP. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 124 of 288 ) jwalker: "What is YOUR code of ethical behaviour?" And why is that any business of yours, asshole?? Keep your attention and focus on the topic, you drunken sod. " Given the situation in Gujarat and YOUR code of ethical behaviour and YOUR view of BJP's handling of the crisis, would YOU vote the BJP to power again? " Absolutely. As is the case with everything else in life, they are the best of all available options, which all happen to be terrible. Since I can remember the congress funcking big time and can objectively compare the congress reign with the BJP reign, I think that the BJP is at least making some positive steps to change some fundamental systemic problem. If the congress comes to power,what we will be seeing is a rush by pieces of human garbage like mani shankar iyer and satish sharma trying to elbow each other out to perform some cunnilingus on Sonia. You can bet that the congress will spend most of its time congratulating itself on have saved secularism in India while they allow the various crises that dog India to become worse due to inaction. |
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jwalker 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 125 of 288 ) Karappall, Just asking you a simple question - What is your code of ethical behaviour? This is from your post that said you judged parties for yourself based on "your ethical behaviour". So either you have some ethical standard of behaviour or you don't or you do not know the fucking meaning of ethical, behaviour and/or standards. And from your posts, my bet is on the latter two. Given your disposition in this forum to "rationally educate" commies like us, I was sure you would only be happy to expound on your various vacuous theories as you have done in the past. Perhaps, I could interest you in a shot of Johnny Walker. Go ahead and state what positive steps the BJP have taken to change a fundamental systemic problem. Do state the problem and the steps taken by BJP. |
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luvvmann 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 126 of 288 ) jwalker, commies cannot be educated. they are stupid. ignorance can be corrected not stupidity. the only way to treat commies is to eliminate them. kill the bastards just like they are doing in nepal. jehadis, communists,and so-called rationalists should be killed. no discussion. no waste of time. |
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iqbal 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 127 of 288 ) luwmann, Ia m not agree with u .It is not impossible to control mobs.but somebody shld try. after all govenment has all powers. As per u police and govenment can't control mobs. then for what they are ? what are their duties? Pls read this link and then tell me what is true http://www.outlookindia.com/specialfea turem.asp?fodname=20020411&fname=chenoy&sid=1#Box 10: On Police Transfers Isn't govenment supporting mobs ? |
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luvvmann 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 128 of 288 ) iqbal, i said it is difficult to control mobs when they have gone mad. that is a true statement. but, you are absolutely correct, the governments support mobs in many cases. the congress government in india has always supported muslim mobs to riot and play havoc. when hindus retaliate (that is normal) the congress blames the hindus and frightens the muslims even more. this way they can get muslim votes by perpetually instigating trouble. the congress party has perfected this game. they are a bunch of bastards. in pakistan the government at first instigated the muslims to kick all the hindus and sikhs out of the country or kill them. so the muslims did exactly that, killed, raped,and kicked the hindus out of pakistan. don't you agree. the same is happening in bangladesh. hindus are being brutalized and kicked out. yes, you are correct. as for outlook magazine you can believe what you want. they are a bunch of communists. you as a good muslim, do you believe communists. think. can communists be believed. never, never. |
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gandalf 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 129 of 288 ) yak yak.. This crap lowman regurgitates is getting very boring.. We hindhus are with the congress.. Is that wrong?.. Congress has the highest percentage of the people vote compared to any party.. are they all Muslims.. I am surprised that Lowmans ideal and benchmark is Bangaladesh and pakistan. |
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gandalf 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 130 of 288 ) Great, now the BJP is doing badly because of coalitin politics.. Clay head.. it had to get into a coalition because i got the votes of the 20% of the fools that are the usual dregs of society. Ist election it was " give us a chance" next was Able leader, now it will be these coalition guys.. BJP..the BIMARU JOKERS PARTY will never have the guts to go it alone.. Even Mayawati.. that sudra woman.. che chee.. is shoving coals up you behinds |
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gandalf 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 131 of 288 ) The congress is unfortunately the country's only alternative.. Bhramin Bania machination have kept this country weak for ages.. what has changed over the last 1000 years.. nothing. Even the RSS founder (one of the 'walkars)quoted in TOI a fes days back after geting a airport inAndamans named after him.. pledged loyality to the british.. they also lovinig gave their daughters to any invader.. Bloody jokers.. I hope we indians will one day stop being swayed by these snakes. Or we we have to learn the hard way through a Germany like catharsis |
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arvraj 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 132 of 288 ) Well again the pseudo secular leaders and the media have twisted the RSS Bangalore resolution. Isn't that true that both the communities have to earn the goodwill of each other for peaceful co-existence. Hindus have always been peaceful and secular and the recent rise of Hindu hardliners is basically to counter the Jehadi Islamists. Yes, Muslims should earn the goodwill of Hindus because they are the ones who indulge in riots every time. Why is that communal riots take place only in cities where Muslims are in large numbers. Why should only Hindu festival processions be attacked. Why do Muslims celebrate when Pakistan wins a cricket match against India, Why do they support Bin Laden. By indulging in all these activities they have tarnished their image. Agreed that only a small section of Muslims indulge in such activities but it is the responsibility of the Muslim leaders and the rest of their community to check these troublesome few. |
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gandalf 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 133 of 288 ) Avaraj.. what you are saying is not true.. Some people celebrate when there are child marriages.. what do you do..? burn them and cut open their bellies? No we continue with the path of social progress and invariably these wrong tendencies die out. Thats all.. You dont have to murder people to achieve enlightenment |
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praveenk 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 134 of 288 ) Finally we are all happy that no preplanning was done in Godhra.It is the prove that large number of Hindus are saved.But we should not thank to the secular forces of this country.It is the reality that has come out in wide open and our secular Politicians cant do anything about it. It proves that what would have been the case if it is was preplanned.It shows that the minority of this country can burn alive 57 hindus with a 15 minute notice,without any planning.Muslim should thank to the patronage given to them by our Politicians,Media & the so called secular individiuals. This report(no prepalnning in Godhra) shows that how tolerant Hindus are.To take the revenge of Godhra they need lot of fire in their belly without any support from Media.At least our Hindus can not do a Godhra on Muslim with 15 minute notice,because they dont have anybody from media in their side. Today a muslim can do anything to the Hindu,he can abuse him,scold him with the help of Politicians & Media.Can our Hindus do that? |
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arvraj 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 135 of 288 ) gandalf, I never said we should indulge in violence. But, Hindus being the majority in this country are at the receiving end. Every year Hindus get killed while going on Amarnath yatra, Vaishno Devi yatra and now Islamic terrorists are entering temples and killing Hindus. How would you explain this? Have Hindus anytime attacked any Muslim going on Haj. Its the Muslims who attack even the Hindu pilgrims, attack our festival processions and none of our secular leaders see anything wrong in this nor does any Muslim leader condemn this. Some Muslim leaders openly call for jehad and some warn us of a civil war, some openly support Bin Laden and indulge in violence. Every now and then we hear news of some ISI agents being nabbed and most of them are Muslims. Did any Muslim or secular leader raise any voice against this. Its because some Jehadi Muslims indulge in all the above things the Muslim community has lost the credibility and confidence of Hindus. Its the duty of every moderate Muslim to start building the confidence by controlling the Jehadi mess in their own religion. |
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rakeshyp 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 136 of 288 ) arvraj, "Its the duty of every moderate Muslim to start building the confidence by controlling the Jehadi mess in their own religion." What are you doing, as a moderate hindu, to control the hindu fanatics - the shiv sainiks, the bajrang dalis, may i know ? |
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rakeshyp 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 137 of 288 ) praveenk, "Today a muslim can do anything to the Hindu,he can abuse him,scold him with the help of Politicians & Media.Can our Hindus do that? " Oh really, so can I go and kill a couple of Muslims in my building.. they are really troubling me. Can you pl let me know which politician or media i should telephone once i kill these 2-3 people. Thanks for your advise, Praveen. |
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rakeshyp 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 138 of 288 ) gandalf, i remember reading one of your posts somewhere that we should stop looking at criminals as hindus or muslims. I agree with you 100 percent. Criminals are criminals, period. They should be treated as such. This minority appeasement bullshit carries no logic. Minorities are the main sufferers in riots owing to a partisan police force that we have plus the poverty amongst these communities. |
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arvraj 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 139 of 288 ) rakeshyp, VHP/BJ have grown popular because Hindus had no other way to go. Thousands of hindus were killed in J&K, women raped but none of these so called secular parties like Congress, Communists came to their rescue, forget about rescue nobody atleast expressed any sympathy. Why was not the parliament stalled during that time. Why have not the secular parties taken out rallies or gone on fast. Its because the people who were killed were Hindus and its okay to kill them. Its because of this apathy, organizations like VHP/BJ, Shiv Sena became popular. For your kind information these organizations never indulge in anti-India activities and are not a threat to the nation unlike SIMI/ISS who work directly with the Islamic terrorists. These organizations which are referred as Sangh Parivar have always been in the fore front of service whenever any natural calamity had struck, be it the Gujrat earthquake, Orrisa cyclone etc. Nobody recognizes their contribution towards the nation building but everybody tries to tarnish their image by branding them communal. What's wrong in asking for a Uniform Civil Code in this country, isn't that a good thing where in every citizen is treated equal by the law. What's wrong in asking for the article 370 be scrapped, why should J&K have special status. Are these above issues anyway related to religion. Sangh Parivar organizations are only against Muslims who are anti-Indian and not like Jehadi Islamic organizations who say that it is okay to kill every non-Muslim. If you call someone fighting against forces which are anti-Indian as communal, then I can't help it. I call them nationalists and true patriots. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 140 of 288 ) So what is this report that claims that Godhra was not preplanned?? I would like to see that. As far as I know, the SIMI was directly responsible for Godhra. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 141 of 288 ) Gandalf: "No we continue with the path of social progress and invariably these wrong tendencies die out. Thats all.. You dont have to murder people to achieve enlightenment" The fact is that "shit happens", sherlock. Tendencies dont get born or die out, it is all a matter of contention for sparse resources. Morality has nothing to do with it. |
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luvvmann 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 142 of 288 ) rakeshyp, stop your fucking bullshit. either you are fucking retarded or being butt-fucked by a mullah. matherchot, both hindus and muslims get killed in communal riots. these riots are started by muslims almost always without exception. the motherfucking fanatics hate the hindus and india. that is why pakistan was created. many muslims in india still are pakistanis at heart. they create trouble hurting both themselves and the hindus and the country. fucked up assholes like you think no end of yourselves exhibiting a false sense of superiority. gadhe, get some brains somewhere if that is possible. nincompoop, grow up and stop your idealistic ignorant bullshit. we have enough ignorant assholes like you, we don't need any more. |
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munna 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 143 of 288 ) karapall, " As far as I know, the SIMI was directly responsible for Godhra." Just out of curiosity, what is your source of this info ? |
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munna 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 144 of 288 ) arvraj, Do you honestly feel that organizations like VHP, Bajrang Dal, Shiv Sena are not spreading communal hatred ? Is this a patriotic activity ? If the VHP is against only anti-national muslims, were all people who died in Gujarat anti-national ? |
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arvraj 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 145 of 288 ) Munna, I honestly feel that VHP/BJ are not spreading communal hatred. When you observe the speeches of any of their leaders they are only against Muslims who are against India. Yes, some of the people who were killed in Gujrat are innocent but don't forget along with the kar sevaks few innocents were also burnt by the Muslim mob. My question to all the people who call themselves secular and who are raising hue and cry about this is "Its true that Muslims were killed in Gujrat, but before this several thousand Hindus were massacared by Muslims in so many communal riots which tool place earlier". "We have a glaring example of ethnic cleansing of Hindus in J&K". Where were all these secular leaders and people then. Why did they not raise their voice at that time. Why didn't they boycott Parliaments and did a hunger strike at that time? If some secular Indian can explain me this, it will be of immense help. |
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rakeshyp 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 146 of 288 ) arvaraj, I do not agree with your rationale. (actually i do not see any). What do you mean where were the secularists..? what do you want me or some other secularist to do.. catch a train to kashmir ? what did you do when sikhs died in 84, christians were killed in orissa or muslims were killed in mumbai/gujarat ?? WHAT DID YOU DO ???? What is the police/govt for ? to sit back and watch people mete out justice to each other ?? wake up ! |
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munna 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 147 of 288 ) Arvaraj, I agree all the Hindus in the train were innocent. But I disagree that 'some' of the Muslims were innocent. Apart from the 2000 or 3000 Muslims in Godhra, each and every person who was murdered,raped,burnt alive was innocent. And I would suggest a common treatment by the law for the perpetrators of Godhra (if they are alive) and the VHP guys in Gujarat(they are definitely alive and kicking) because they are all criminals. Your point about 'secularists raising their voice' is extremely wierd. Which secularist has condoned the murder of Hindus in Kashmir ? Every sane person condemns and should condemn the murder of any innocent person anywhere. |
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arvraj 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 148 of 288 ) rakeshyp, that's what my question is. When Hindus and Sikhs were massacared none of these so called secular parties did anything for them. Its well known that congress party workers massacred 3000 sikhs when Indira Gandhi was assasinated and Rajiv Gandhi, then PM just said "The earth is bound to shake when a big tree falls". Why is that the same congress is creating a hue and cry now. Does it have any moral right to do so? Book all the culprits of all the riots which have taken place so far and then I have no problem if you arrest VHP/BJ activists involved in the recent riots. Justice should not be implemented in a partisan way. None of these secular leaders visited any Hindu refugee camps in J&K but see now everybody visits Gujrat camps, organizes peace marches and so on. Why is this? Doesn't Hindu's and Sikh's life carry any value? Its just vote bank politics. Its because of this Muslim appeasement they have become uncontrollable. |
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munna 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 149 of 288 ) Arvraj, Who is the Congress ? Another stupid political party who has caused more harm to the Muslims than 'helped' it. Why even talk of the Congress. Who we should look to for order in the country is the Government (whosover is in it). If you continue to hold entities like the congress, bukhari, etc responsible, what is the Govt responsible for ? |
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munna 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 150 of 288 ) Arvraj, Another fact for you. The humane VHP, which you say helps 'Indians' at times of earthquake, etc. has returned foodgrains/clothes which a charitable trust from my town had sent to the relief camps. They claim it contains weapons/explosives for the refugees. The driver was roughed up and told to turn back. The police was eating ghutka nearby while this happened. Now I do not blame the virtuous VHP for this. I blame the Govt who wilfully is sleeping. NOBODY ELSE IS TO BLAME. |
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arvraj 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 151 of 288 ) Munna, its the Muslims who are looking towards Congress, Communists and Mulayam Singhs to represent them. These leaders have never done anything good for Muslims instead they have harmed their interests. None of these leaders speak of the poverty, illiteracy which is prevalent in the Muslim community and work towards their betterment. Instead they try to mislead Muslims by saying that they are being threatened. If Muslims don't follow these parties and leaders then why didn't any Muslim leader came out openly and said the ban on SIMI was justified since it was caught red handed indulging in anti-India activities. Govt cannot bring in changes which would uplift the Muslims because its a coalition govt. We have to bring Muslims and every other community under one law; Uniform Civil Code, but none of these secular parties agree to that. The United Nations has commented last year that even after 50 years of independence India has failed to implement a uniform law in the country. If you start treating different people under different laws thats when trouble starts as some feel being ill-treated at the cost of others. Its the Muslims who have to look for some good leadership among themselves, they should select leaders who don't become stooges at the hands of these pseudo-secular leaders. |
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luvvmann 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 152 of 288 ) rakeshyp, the shiv sena is not the same as the SIMI. your premise is a fucked up one. SIMI is anti-national , jehadi, pro-pakistan. shiv sena or bajrang dal are not. don't make stupid comparisons. your favorite congresswalas also know this but don't admit to it for obvious reasons. these cocksuckers (your kind) want muslim votes (they just can't help it). the congress does not oppose a speaker of the lok sabha from the shiv sena because they know the shiv sena is not anti-national. a cock sucker like you would prefer a speaker from the hizbul mujahideen, SIMI, LET or better yet Musharraf Saheb himself. the problem with imbeciles like you is utter plain stupidity and a false sense of moral superiority. ignorance is not far behind. |
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munna 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 153 of 288 ) luwmann, So bringing about a rift between communities is a patriotic, nation building activity then ? Is that how Shiv Sena and Bajrang Dal are not anti-national. |
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Sameer28 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 154 of 288 ) Luwmann, Not only you sound arrogant, but you are ignorant of the facts about Shiv Sena and bajrang Dal or you might be delibrately doing so. The militant organisations should be banned, the moslem or hindus..Militancy is not the answer for anything. Hindus are being worse than criminals..the amount of rapes and burning of small children shows that..Indian image worldwide has come to naught..it is not the govt which can do anything, it is the people who have to fight for themselves not vote the likes of BJP to power to save the nation..Goerge Fernandes proved how nasty he is and Uma bharti being woman has not done anything better..god save this nation..sigh |
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arvraj 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 155 of 288 ) Sameer28, Its true some excesses were committed during the Gujrat riots and you are moved by that. But what happened to you and all your secular leaders when thousands of Hindus were killed, their women raped and thrown out of J&K, why were they not moved by that? Why only now? Why that indifference towards Hindus? that's my question? Don't forget that Shiv Sena/BJ have become popular in the recent past because Hindus were fed up of the Islamic militancy and the support these terrorists are getting among the local Muslims. What would call those people who kill pilgrims going on Amarnath yatra. If Hindus were criminals then Muslim population wouldn't have flourished as it does today. Hindus have never attacked Muslims first, have you ever heard of any Moharrum procession being attacked but you hear of Ganesh processions being attacked every year. Even in Godhra its the Muslims who struck first. Go and read the history of all the communal riots which have occured since Independence and its the Muslims who were responsible for almost 100% of them. Now you decide who is a criminal a Hindu or a Muslim? About George Fernandes and Uma Bharati, before pointing a finger at them, just look at your leaders, the Bukhari's, Shabuddin's, Owaisi's, they give a call to Muslims to Kill people in the name of Jehad from inside the Mosque premises. When compared to Muslim leaders, Hindu leaders are far far better. |
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luvvmann 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 156 of 288 ) sameer28, what exactly is wrong with the BJP. can you quantify. except leave your anti-hindu prejudice aside. if you have read my earlier postings i suggested a ban on all religious parties. ban the muslim league, MIM, majlis, akali dal etc. and then you can ban the shiv sena and BD also. you cannot have your cake and eat it too. muslims cannot demand and have a separate personal code introducing religion into politics and everything else and have hindus not demand anything. that is illogical. moreover the hindus are demanding nothing except equal treatment under the law. what is wrong with that. did you know that muslim schools get govt. money but hindu schools cannot. is that fair. muslims get haj subsidy, hindus don't. is that fair. this has nothing to do with good muslims and bad muslims or good and bad hindus. the congress and communist parties have perverted secularism for political purposes. this has created a dangerous situation for the country. the BJP is not a communal party by any means. even if it is what is wrong. if muslims can organize on the basis of religion, the hindus can too. what exactly is the problem. can you explain. |
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luvvmann 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 157 of 288 ) sameer28, if you will notice arvraj has done an excellent job of projecting the hindu muslim divide. the problem is real and not created by the politicians. politicians such as jinnah and gandhi used religion for their own purposes. muslims as a group are communal to the core. i am not sure why you cannot swallow the truth. even muslims admit they hate secularism. there is no such animal for muslims. muslims understand only an islamic state (an overwhelming majority). the truth is always bitter. muslims will not dispute the fact that they love an islamic theocratic society over a secular one. hindus do not much care for a theocratic society. this is the real problem. all else flows from this basic problem. indians, especially hindus have to deal with this situation. the best way is to enact laws that minimise religious identity, not encourage it. islamic extremism should be crushed totally and decisively. hindus will then welcome a ban on the shiv sena and BD. but, without taking the necessary precautionary measures the shiv sena etc. cannot be banned. atleast, they are pro india, the others hate us and want to finish us off. grow up and smell the roses. the gujarat story is one sided communist propaganda. both hindus and muslims have suffered untold miseries. to end this requires guts and correct decisive policy. ranting and raving about the BJP will not help. |
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arvraj 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 158 of 288 ) luvvmann, you have done an excellent job in bringing out the core issues of minority appeasement in your postings# 156 & 157. Its this appeasement which makes Hindus look like second class citizens in their own country. Its these Congress, Communists and the Muslim fundamentalists who have created an atmosphere in this country where a Muslim can proudly call himself a Muslim and be secular but when a Hindu calls himself a Hindu, he is branded as communal. Until everybody is brought under a uniform law this divide is going to prevail? When you call India a secular state, what's wrong if everybody is treated equally under the law, but Muslims and so called secular leaders won't agree to that. Its time Muslims do some introspection and come out in support of the Uniform Civil Code. |
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munna 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 159 of 288 ) arvraj, the reason we see the govt sitting on it's ass doing nothing is people like you who blame other people for our problems. the day you guys realize that the govt needs to be accountable for what happens, things will change. it's not the hindus or muslims who run the country.. it's the govt which runs the country and THEY are the one who need to be held by the scruff and questioned. |
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luvvmann 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 160 of 288 ) munna, you are completely divested from reality. is the black white problem in the USA and around the world a govt. problem. it is not. people exploit the problem that already exists. the hindu muslim problem exists and leaders exploit it. did jinnah and gandhi not exploit religion. did jinnah create a monster in pakistan. governments are responsible yes, but people too. infact peoples responsibility is just as great or more. why don't you ask sheik abdullah to be accountable for the rape and plunder of hindus and sikhs in kashmir and resign. why don't you ask sheik hasina in bangla to resign for atrocities against hindus and buddists. are they not responsible. only Modi is responsible for this socalled lack of administrative action. the media and the congress/communist parties are fooling the muslims. muslims should open lines of communication with the VHP and the RSS. they are a thousand times better than the communist assholes in the media and the congress thieves. they are much more tolerant and secular than these cowardly assholes on this post who claim to be secular and moral. these stinking communist assholes are cowards creating chaos between the communities. it is their only hope of getting some where. it is sad that muslims are so blinded by the extremist non-sense that they are making things impossible for themselves and others. |
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luvvmann 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 161 of 288 ) correction to my last post. farook abdullah and begum zia. |
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Sameer28 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 162 of 288 ) Lawmann, It is very easy to say, it was only muslims who start the riots, I have llived in INDIA for long enough to understand how bad the situation is! it is not that only muslims start, there have been more incidents where hindus have started riots than muslims. It is not the riot, this is a pogram, The whole of media is showing the proof of how the Godhra incident started, but you and others would easily forget that and give the excuse to carry out the worst type of crime!! In Kashmir or any where else you quote, we never say there are no problems, there are but the govt, the police, the military everyone is not involved. the people involved are cought and punished unlike Gujurat where the CM prides over what is happening, Faroq Abdullah is not proud about what happens in Kashmir nor any muslim leader!! Stop making excuses, here in Canada and US, people are worried about the atricocities taking place with against the humanity.. You could do lot better by condemning the acts of voilence in Gujurat before it is too late for you or anyone else living in India |
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jbindra 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 163 of 288 ) We shall overcome. Luvvmann : In response to your last post. Somethings, lets get our house in order first. Lets sort India out and then tell Pakistan and Bangladesh how to treat its people. In corollary when they shout about our errors why do we squirm and say its an internal matter. Lets just be good citizens and treat them well too. I dont understand your logic at all. Congress is majority Hindu and it can never come to power on their fragemented Hindu vote alone so I dont think they derive some great benefit from instigating muslim mobs. There's something poxy there. As for your piece of history on Partition, it just wasnt in Pakistan. Muslims in India were also force to join in the exodus. So everyone was equally responsible and we cant let the past govern our future forever. |
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munna 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 164 of 288 ) Luwmann, I have responses to each and every point you have raised. But the muck you are throwing with it restrains me from responding to you. IF YOU WANT A CIVILIZED DEBATE, LEARN SOME MANNERS. |
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luvvmann 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 165 of 288 ) munna bindra and sameer, needless to say i disagree with you. and munna what are you talking about. i replied to sameer the way i think fit. i did not abuse you, did i. you sound reasonable. sameer does not to me. i write diffeent things to different people basd on my assessment. |
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luvvmann 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 166 of 288 ) bindra, i think you are a fool. there is what is called proportion in everything. yes, muslims were also killed in india during partition. but what is the proportion of this crime. islam and any system of law lays great emphasis on this aspect - proportion. in pakistan, almost all hindus and sikhs were either raped, killed or kicked out. sikhs are practically non-existent in pakistan (except the stupid terrorists). there are a few hindus in sindh. in india (minus the land of pakistan) the percentage of muslims before and after partition changed by less than 5 %. almost 99% of hindus and sikhs were kicked out of pakistan. are you a damn fool. give me a break and be reasonable. today the muslim population of india is greater than that of pakistan (and bangla). muslims are free as any one. the richest indian is a muslim. the biggest gangster is also a muslim. muslims can do anything they want and live peacefully. except, they don't want to live peacefully. it is a fact. the pakistani bug is still wandering in their heads. i don't buy your fucked up bullshit. |
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luvvmann 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 167 of 288 ) sameer, i disagree with you about gujarat and Modi. there was intense mob fury and it was contained within days. i don't buy the exagerrated reports in the media, all pro-muslim and all anti-hindu. i have been there before and i know what happens in india too. most of the riots are started when muslims leave friday prayers and throw stones at hindu procesions or anything with some "hindu" in it (motherfucking mullahs and pakistani agents instigate this). then all hell breaks loose. in my own town a hindu woman who was pregnant was stabbed and killed in a gruesome manner by muslims. the papers failed to report it. the indian media is full of communists who are experts at lying. just like muslims are communal in general, the communists are fucking liars in general. hindus in general are fucking selfish cowardly morons. Modi should not be fired and Modi should not resign. Modi did not say he was proud of anything. the media is going after Modi because he is a RSS man. that is their favorite pastime. do you think Paswan cares for the muslims (he resigned for his own selfish reasons). Do you think Chandrababu Naidu cares for muslims (he is just interested in their vote in hyderabad) and wants rich muslim gujarati money to come to hyderabad. all such monkey antics will not help muslims or hindus. if peace is required, muslims should shun extremist postures and jehadi mentality (forget pakistani mentality). peace and progess will prevail. there are many other problems ofcourse, but we have to start here. |
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arvraj 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 168 of 288 ) bindra, you are absolutely wrong in what you said about partition. It was Hindus who were massacared in thousands. Why that, before independence over 10,000 Hindus were killed under the name of Direct Action just because Indian leaders did not agree to Muslim's Leagues idea of partition. If you look at the history of all the communal riots which have occured so far you would come to know that it was Muslims who were mostly responsible for them. Hindus never attacked Muslim religious processions but every year our Ganesh processions get attacked in various cities, this is a clear example of their militant attitude. The pseudo-secular leaders and the media are hand-in-glove with each other and they try to subvert the news. Whenever a Hindu is killed nobody cares about it but when a Muslim gets killed then the hell breaks loose. Have you ever seen these Muslims leaders supporting India, they openly call themselves ISI agents and give a call for Jehad. Its time Muslims have to come out of the cluthes of these pseudo-secular and Jehadi leaders otherwise welfare would be a distant dream for them. |
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shahid 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 169 of 288 ) arvraj, stop conjecturing. What is the proof of what you say. Come out of the Sangh Parivar psyche and try to see the reality. The reality is Gujarat. The reality is BJP. The reality is Kashmir. The reality is Pakistan. The reality is India. Stop living in the fictitious world created by you Sangh mentors |
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arvraj 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 170 of 288 ) shahid, "Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored". Read any history book on Indian independence and you would find the proof of how Hindus were massacared in the name of partition. If you don't trust Indian authors, read any foreign author. About the communal riots, could you please explain why they occur only in cities where Muslims are in large numbers. Don't try to separate Kashmir, though Pakistan supports the terrorism there, its patronised by the local muslim population and there is no doubt about it, how many times have we not seen in tv and in magazines, Kashmiri muslims burning the Indian flag. Even in Gujrat it was Muslims who struck first, can you deny that and how do you explain that. I am lot living in a fictitious world but its most of the Muslim population which needs to come out of it. I am still waiting to hear a statement from any Muslim leader about yesterdays deadly attack in Jammu. |
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arvraj 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 171 of 288 ) please read it as "not", sorry for the typo. |
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shahid 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 172 of 288 ) arvaj, you sound so much like your Sanghi mentors. and yea, try sometimes reading history books different from any written by a sanghi. such stupid statements you will find only in RSS text books. During partition many Muslims were also killed, many trains arrived in Pakistan filled with only dead bodies. communal riots occur in places where there are Muslims because Muslims cannot be attacked in any place they don't exist, i thought that was common sense. due to the hatred generated by sanghis, Gujarati Hindus hate the Muslims and want to attack them wherever they exist and drive them out of their dwelling places. and yea when the renewed propaganda was started about building the mandir in Ayodhya, Gujarat was so tense that it didnot really matter who started the riots, all that was needed was a little spark, and who starts the spark is really not important. the spark could actually have been started by some VHP activist abusing some Muslim woman or anything else... it doesnot matter. Such sparks happen everyday in usual times. what is more important here is to understand why a little spark becomes a huge fire... it is because of the hate propaganda of the Sangh Parivar... and all fools who believe in them without questioning are to be blamed. |
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shahid 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 173 of 288 ) arvraj, also i hope you understand that there is a difference between burning Indian flags and burning Indian people. |
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gandalf 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 174 of 288 ) I am truly sick of the conditioned whine " ... but why did X Y Z not seak up when Hindus were killed in 1 2 3" OR "..why even the Congress did the same in yadayadayada" Is it possible that the mainstream middleclass hindhu has lost the ability to think INdependently???. Look at Some guys on this board.. 5-8 arguments parroted continually.. why dont you guys so and become Eureka Forbes Sales men |
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gandalf 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 175 of 288 ) Avraj: I hate my self for saying this but one day say some Xtian fanatic wakes up to the tru nature of our society and mutilates your sister or kid in Europe/US.. Will you have the balls to say loud and clear that two kids burnt in Orisa is enough justifications for that?.. Show me the balls boy.. |
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arvraj 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 176 of 288 ) shahid, I know truth is very bitter to swallow. About the communal riots which occur only in Muslim dominated cities, its not because Hindus go and attack them, its because Mulsims attack Ganesh and Ramnavmi processions. Hindus have never attacked any Muslim processions. Its the Islamic mullahs who say every non-mulsim is a kafir and its okay to kill them, the whole jehad is based on this concept. This is what is indoctrined inside mosques and madarsas, Hindus never do that. About the killings during partition, I said I was not quoting from RSS literature, why don't you read any foreign author's work on Indian independence and try to know the facts. Its a well known fact that the Sangh Parivar organizations are nationalist organizations and there's nothing wrong with them. They are atleast not like SIMI/Jamiat anti-Indian to the core. |
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arvraj 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 177 of 288 ) gandalf, I am not justifying any retaliation anywhere. What I want is whenever anybody is killed, I want the whole nation to react the same way and sympathize with the victims. But this does not happen, whenever Hindus are massacred, people just pay lip service and forget but the same doesn't happen when Muslims or christains are killed. In J&K so many Hindu priests were killed, but none of them made it to the news nor received any sympathy but Graham Stanies when killed got so much of attention and sympathy. Why is this difference, is there any difference between a Hindu priest and a Christain clergy. Why do the pseudo-secular leaders and the media publish and popularize one sided news. All these so called secular leaders and the media continuously spill venom against Sangh parivar outfits alleging that they are indulging in hate campaings, why don't the same leaders and the media have the guts to talk about the Jehadi elements and leaders indulging in anti-India campaigns from madarsas and mosques. This is what I am against. |
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munna 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 178 of 288 ) arvraj, Question for you - If you refuse to answer, I will understand. Are you a member of any organization like say ABVP/RSS/etc ? I will mention the reason for my curiosity after your response/no response. |
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shahid 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 179 of 288 ) arvraj, Hindu processions in Ahmedabad or any Hindu procession led by the Sangh Parivar has nothing to do with Hindu religion. It is generally a very vulgar procession often to carry out anti-Muslim propaganda. The procession leaders and members keep shouting anti Muslim slogans and deliberately take their procession to Muslim dominated areas. Obviously not all Muslims are very quiet and patient, someone will surely attack, no matter howsoever trivially... maybe shout an abuse or hurl a stone, that is not because he hates the Hindus, but because he feels threatened by your terrorist army. The leaders know that if they take such a procession through a Muslim area there surely would be problems, and thats what they want to start the communal rioting... thats is why they always go armed in such processions. To me it is not like Hindus taking their procession through a Muslim area; but a Hindu army going to attack defenseless Muslims |
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arvraj 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 180 of 288 ) No, I am not a member of any of the above mentioned organizations. I am just someone who had done extensive study of Indian freedom and political history. I would like to go the root of all the problems and am ready to discuss issues threadbare. I am waiting.... |
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shahid 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 181 of 288 ) Firstly Muslims hardly have any processions taken out in India. The only one which is done is during Muharram, and that is not taken through Hindu areas and never NEVER is anti-Hindu propaganda a part of the procession. Muslims are generally very religious minded and never strike or attack unless they feel really threatened. The whole inspiration of Hindu Nationalism(fundamentalism or fascism) is a deep hatred for anything foreign especially so "foreign ideas" or "foreign" religions as the Sanghis call them. Their inspiration is not enormous love for their country, religion, or god, but extreme hatred for Muslims and Christians. None of Muslims' inspirations is based on hate. |
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shahid 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 182 of 288 ) Even the concept of Jihad in Islam is not based on hate. Jihad is the concept of self sacrifice for the love of God and for the cause of justice for fellow human beings. Even the most terrorist of Muslims, even the likes of the people who struck the WTC are better than the Sanghis. Even in the 9/11 terrorists do you fail to note the element of self sacrifice, none of those who attacked the WTC on 9/11 are living. Even in their most perverted forms the Muslims are better than the Sanghis. Open your eyes, see the truth. |
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arvraj 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 183 of 288 ) shahid, your statement that Sangh parivar organizes religious processions really looks silly. Every year in various cities thousands of Ganesh idols are installed by different organizations and after a certain period they take them out in a procession for immersion. Most of the cultural organizations who organize these things have nothing to do with Sangh parivar. Your statement that Sangh parivar organizes them is a blatant lie. But if you still say that Sangh parivar organizes them then I cannot help but laugh at you. You said the slogan shouting during the Hindu religious processions makes Muslims attack them. If mere slogan shouting drives Muslims to indulge in violence then what should Hindus do when some Muslims burn crackers after Pakistan wins a cricket match against India. What should they do when Muslims indulge in violence in certain cities just because US has attacked Iraq. What should we do when Muslims come down to rioting just because US has attacked taliban in Afganisthan. What should Hindus do when Muslims come to our homes requesting donations for Jihad in Kashmir. If mere slogan shouting evokes such a response from Muslims tell me how should Hindus react after witnessing such anti-India activities in front of their eyes. |
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munna 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 184 of 288 ) arvraj, Next question - Was violence against Muslims in Gujarat 'Hindu fury' ? Were 'Muslims in Godhra' representing the entire 'Muslim community of Gujarat' ? |
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munna 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 185 of 288 ) Arvraj, "I am just someone who had done extensive study of Indian freedom and political history" Hmmm.. I have my fingers crossed. |
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gandalf 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 186 of 288 ) Avraj: Regarding whether Sangh organisation organise rel precessions.. why are you lying to yourself?. For video footage watch this amazing documentary called War and Peace by Anant Patwardhan. And regarding your extensive study of Islam, I wish you had spent 1/100 of the time in studying hindhuism else you wont be speakinig like this |
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arvraj 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 187 of 288 ) gandalf, you are completely wrong in saying that Sangh parivar organizes religious processions. We in our colony used to install Ganesh idol and take it out in a procession for immersion and we were not related to Sangh anyway, like us thousands of cultural organizations do this and they have nothing to do with Sangh. It has become a fashion to blame everything on Sangh. About the video footage you mentioned, even I have seen enough video footage wherein Muslims attacked Ganesh processions from inside a mosque in hydbad. Also you raise a hue and cry about Sangh activities but are silent about SIMI/Deendar-e-Anjuman which have triggered blasts in so many religious places last year. Also I have only mentioned that I have done extensive study of Indian freedom and political history, so please don't try to distort the facts like the pseudo-secular leaders of our country. |
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gandalf 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 188 of 288 ) Yes.. Some mosques did attack processions, just like some Sangh people attacked Muslims. Can you explain to me the difference between both lowlife?, can you explain why SIMI is banned and BDal is not? SIMI and D-e-A are antinational (HUE CRY HUE CRY) Now whay Mr. Avraj?. Now that I have raised a hue and cry will you agree to my above points on th Sangh?, Show me the balls! |
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shahid 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 189 of 288 ) arvraj, I hope you are living on this planet called Earth in the Solar System of this our Sun in an extreme edge of the galaxy Milky way. The planet with only one Moon and third closest to its sun. The organizations which you name SIMI and Deendar-e-Anjuman are banned while the Sanghis are allowed to roam free despite them repeatedly breaking the law. This is the state that this our "Great Secular and Democratic" nation has come to. Don't you have any shame in blatantly telling lies. As far as Deendar-e-Anjuman is concerned I am pretty sure the govt took the right decision to ban it. I am not too sure about the banning of SIMI, though. I am afraid the govt may have just banned it because it is Sangh dominated and Sanghis are known to be Muslim-haters. The Sanghis saw an opportunity for attacking the Muslims since the "god" they wordhip, called USA was attacked by terrorists who happened to be Muslims, and the Sanghis hoped that their god is as big a fool as them and would generalize all Muslims as terrorists... and would accept their actions of persecuting innocent Muslims in their own nation. This Sanghi attitute has been extremely detrimental to the stability of the nation and to its dignity in the world. |
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arvraj 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 190 of 288 ) gandalf, there's a saying "if you get disturbed by criticism then you deserve it". Your foul and filthy language on a discussion forum like this indicates that you have exhausted points in defense of your jehadi bretheren who have been targetting Hindus. As you said what's the difference between SIMI and Bajrang Dal I say, there is a big difference. Bajrang Dal is a nationalist and patriotic organization whereas SIMI is anti-Indian by heart, mind and soul. I think this difference is enough for any Indian to hate such organization and if you are one then you would also hate SIMI. The Sangh organizations have grown militant in order to counter the militant activities of Muslims and Muslim organizations. Let me repeat what I have said earlier, it was Muslims who struck Hindus first on most of the occasions even in Godhra it was Muslims who started it. The Sangh Organizations were always in the forefront of service whenever natural disasters struck India, let it be Gujrat earthquake, Orrisa Cyclone etc but nobody recognizes these. I have never seen any Muslim organization which has done such great service instead they take advantage of the situation and tried to indulge in anti-India activities, the activities of SIMI during the Gujrat earthquake is a best example to this. I hope now your dumb brain understands the difference between SIMI and Sangh, if you cannot then nobody can help you. |
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arvraj 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 191 of 288 ) shahid, please do not compare SIMI and Sangh. Sangh organizations are nationlist organizations whereas SIMI/Deendar-e-Anjuman are anti-national. I think this reason is enough for us to understand why they were banned. As you said, action has to be taken against any organization if it breaks the law of the land and the govt did that time and again. As I said, Sangh was always in the fore front of service whereas SIMI is in the fore front of anti-India activities, I think this is a good reason why the govt sees these organizations differently and any true Indian would do the same. What should I say about the Muslims who celebrated when terrorists hit the twin towers in NY. What kind of person would do that when thousands of innocent people were murdered by blood thirty terrorists. Even in India such celebrations were reported from some cities. The Sangh is against Muslims who are against India and I see no problem in that. I hope Muslims understand this simple thing and try to weed out those elements from among them who have brought misery to the whole community. |
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munna 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 192 of 288 ) arvraj, I am still waiting for your reply.. |
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arvraj 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 193 of 288 ) munna, I am sorry for the delay. Muslims involved in Godhra incident don't represent the whole community. Whatever happened after in Gujrat is really a bad thing and I have no problem in saying that the culprits should be punished. But along with this I want every individual who was involved in the riots which have taken place earlier also be punished otherwise it would be a gross injustice. Also, even Muslims should stop indulging in violent acts on occasions which have nothing to do with India. What I meant was, does it make any sense for Indian muslims to indulge in violence just because USA attacked Iraq or Afganistan. Muslims should curb the jehadi elements among their community, those who celebrate on Pakistan's victory in a cricket match, those who collect funds for Jehad in Kashmir, those who support Bin Laden etc. Unless this is done it will be difficult for the Muslim community to surge forward. Once these Jehadi elements in Muslim community are checked then automatically the militant Hinduism progragated by Bajrang Dal would come down because these organizations gained prominence in order to check the islamic militancy directed against Hindus. Also, Muslims should see the difference between Sangh and SIMI. One is nationlist and the other is anti-India. Sangh activities may create a law and order problems but its never anti-Indian, muslims should try to understand this. |
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shahid 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 194 of 288 ) arvraj, SIMI has a vision for India. They think that a lot of injustice has been done to the poor and under priviledged of India by the rich and the high caste and that it is their opinion that Islam is the solution of all our social problems. I don't see anything anti-national in that sentiment... anyone has a right to express what he/she thinks is best for his/her nation. I think the Sanghis grew hysterical about their increasing influence amongst the masses, that is why they banned them... because they hate Muslims and Islam... or maybe are afraid of losing their own influence. I think they concocted false stories about their involvement in terrorist activities and took the opportunity of 9/11 to ban them. Till now I have not heard of any convincing evidence to have banned them. The final reason they seemed to have banned SIMI seemed to be like... oh they were involved in large scale propaganda which was detrimental to the unity and stability of the Nation... what then I ask does the Sangh Parivar do? The Sangh has been actively involved in anti-Muslim (so hence shall I conclude anti-national?) propaganda, they have been training people and preparing them for communal riots in their Shakhas. They are the biggest present threat to national unity. Moreover, they don't allow any Muslim as their member. Contrary to what has been portrayed of the SIMI, they actually do not say that they are a Muslim organization (or at least did not say so before they were banned) and allow people of any religion to join them, markedly different from the Sanghis who are all fascists. Despite all this maybe they were a little radical and were better banned, but by any gauge of logic, they were better than the Sanghis. Have we Indians become hypocrites, can't we see the disparity in the treatment of organizations of the two communities? To me the banning of SIMI seems more like suppression of right of free speech and expression... and Outlook being an advocate of free speech should question the ban on SIMI. I am even willing to overlook the right of free speech if it is applied equally to groups of all communities... this kind of unfair treatment is not the sign of a healthy Democracy. Actually I think SIMI were much more involved in social service than the Sangh Parivar... doesnot matter anyway, both deserve to be banned. As far as Deendar-e-Anjuman is concerned, I think it was more like some other radical Hindu parties like Bajrang Dal, and yes the reason for banning them seemed to be convincing, they seemed to have been involved in bomb blasts, etc, yes. The SIMI atleast in its organizational setup did in no way seem to be encouraging any physical activities(like the RSS's Shakhas) let alone violence. Open your eyes folks this is injustice. |
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shahid 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 195 of 288 ) arvraj, You seem to be giving a reverse argument. The SIMI came to prominence after the Sangh. The Sangh increased its influence by harping on the Ayodhya issue due to which many innocent Muslims had to suffer. Hardly anyone had heard of SIMI like lets say before 1996(?) Violent organizations like Deendar Anjuman or Daood's gangs etc always remain only in the fringes of the Muslim community, we Muslims have good sense to not allow them to enter our mainstream... it doesnot seem that way for the Hindus, does it?? especially after the organized pogroms of Gujarat??... or even before that the election of the right wing party BJP to power...? And yes about Muslims protesting American attack on Afghanistan... yes they have every right to protest peacefully. There are always bound to be some trouble makers in the fringes, you cannot take them as examples and generalize about all of us. The police behaved hysterically by firing and killing many people in what was by and large a peaceful protest. In any case I don't see why the police should straight away fire real bullets without trying out other less lethal means. The police action at that time was motivated by the Sanghis. About protests against USA over attacking Afghanistan, protests were held in many other nations around the world including many non-Islamic nations, but in no civilized nation did the police behave like how the Indian police behaved. Protests were carried out even in the USA... the very country which was attacked and was attacking, but there were no deaths in police attack on civilians. Shame on you to even have the audacity to speak about all this nakedness so openly. |
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shahid 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 196 of 288 ) arvraj says: "What kind of person would do that when thousands of innocent people were murdered by blood thirty terrorists" I ask arvraj, What kind of person would burn another innocent person killing him/her in cold blood? What kind of a person would stab a pregnant woman tearing out her baby out of her womb and then burn the woman and her child to death? Don't you start comparing the actions of Hindus and Muslims, the actions of the Sanghis were seen live my millions of Indians on TV. When you want to compare don't intentionally omit facts which show your guilt or that that the other side is correct. After so much has happened, it really frustrates me that you still have the audacity to tell lies intentionally and concoct argument to suit your bloody, fascist agenda. I have an advice for you... be careful, very few humans can be fooled for ever. There is a saying... fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me... I wonder why the case fool me again and again every time, was omitted, I guess this saying would have been made by SANE PEOPLE, and would be applicable only to such, I am afraid to say. |
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arvraj 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 197 of 288 ) shahid, I am surprised you see no evidence of SIMI's involvement in anti-India activities. In last year Kanpur riots SIMI activists killed a deputy district magistrate with a AK 47, remember its a AK 47 which these activists were carrying and these people were coming out of a mosque after friday prayers. Even after killing such a big govt official you want the police to keep quiet and call them facist and inspired by Sangh. I am surprised as to what extent you would go to support an anti-national organization like SIMI. When police raided SIMI offices they recovered lot of arms and ammunition which included a rocket launcher, well can you still call such an organization as cultural organization. Its no hidden fact that SIMI activists were directly dealing with Islamic terrorists based Pakistan and its anti-national, I don't care with what purpose it was formed but right now it is indulging in anti-India activities and that's enough for anyone to ban such organization. Your comment that Sangh doesn't allow Muslims is completely wrong. There are many Muslim members in RSS. Sikandar Bakht the BJP leader is a best example for that. About the training imparted in RSS shakas, its only a physical fitness and self defence training and an RSS volunteer just carries a stick(laati) and not AK 47's like SIMI activists. |
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arvraj 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 198 of 288 ) About protesting against US attacks on Afganistan, well nobody would shoot at peaceful protesters. In Malegaon riots last year a police constable was stabbed just because a he tore a pamphlet containing message from Bin Laden which the protestors were distributing. Who calls a crowd which stabs a policeman as peaceful? I have condemned the Gujrat violence and said the culprits should be punished but don't forget that it was Muslims who struck first. You were moved by the Gujrat violence just because Muslims were at the receiving end, how would a Hindu feel when his community was targetted since so many years for no fault of theirs. You say Muslims never allow Jehadi elements to come into their mainstream but only the jehadi voices are heard everyday and I am not sure where those moderate, modern thinking Muslims are. You talk about rights being suppressed in India, if that were the case Muslims wouldn't have to come to a stage where they would stop a train and burn the people in that. If the same thing would have happened in other countries like US where if blacks would have burnt whites then there would have been a genocide against blacks. Just look at the plight of people of other religions in other Muslim countries, even a non-muslim woman is forced to wear a burqa and a non-muslim is not even allowed to cook during the month of ramadan. India never imposed such rules or regulations on any muslims. Just look at China which suppresses muslims with an iron had. Before you make a comment please verify the facts and then speak otherwise you are insulting a great nation like India. |
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shahid 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 199 of 288 ) arvraj, You may not have noted, but I have actually said that SIMI deserves to be banned, not because of its agenda but because of the way it wants to implement its agenda. Even though there was never in the agenda of SIMI any call for violence, the get-up of the organization was aggressive and it is this aggression which may be anti-national in the sense that it can destabilize a country, and it is possible that due to its aggressive get-up some of its members could have taken resort to violent means. I still do not think that SIMI had anything to do with foreign militant organizations, because it was also a part of their get up that they realized that they were basically Indian, but they went on to say that they were ashamed to be Indian... that is in no way as bad as Hizbul Mujahedin, who are devotedly anti-India. Also it was a part of their get-up that they wanted to work indegenously without taking help from any non-Indian source... As far as the Sangh Parivar goes it is as anti-India as the SIMI if not more. You say that the Sanghis don't carry AK47's... that's because they don't need to do so... they have their guys in the Parliament (especially so in Gujarat Assembly) to take care of logistics and planning for communal riots. They are as dangerous as the SIMI for India. Note, my stance is that SIMI is detrimental for India, but not more detrimental than the Sangh Parivar. (I hate to say it this way... what I actually want to say is that the Sangh Parivar and the SIMI are both detrimental for our Nation, hence both must be banned... but for the sake of argument...) You described to me the killings which SIMI members carried out. Why did you deliberately skip the attrocities of the Sangh Parivar on the common people of India as was exhibited in the recent carnage in Gujarat; and even before this in 1992-93 in the campaign for the Babri Masjid demolition? Also in between these two great tragedies communal violence had become a regular part of life in Gujarat, especially so in Ahmedabad. What kind of Indian are you, to support those who kill fellow Indians? Yes about Sikander Bakht... not quite related to the topic at hand... but am inquisitive to know... what did u guys do to him...? have not seen or heard about him for long... I hope he is still living. You talk of police raiding SIMI offices and discovering arms etc. Who knows what they are gonna discover when they raid the RSS offices. You talk about high profile killing... shall I also talk of high profile killing? Who killed Mahatma Gandhi, eh? Mahatma Gandhi was killed by an RSS activist... (he didn't kill Gandhiji with a lathi but with a gun) a fact crystal clear to all... you talk of high profile killing or you talk about large scale pogroms, the Sangh Parivar is an expert of all... telling lies spreading hate they know it all. The Sangh Parivar is the most anti-national group of thugs who are around... please don't try to defend them. |
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shahid 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 200 of 288 ) Arvraj, I am afraid to say that hardly one line in you post #199 makes sense or seems to be correct. How far will you go telling lies and concocting false tales? I am beginning to feel sorry for you. You say, "If the same thing would have happened in other countries like US where if blacks would have burnt whites then there would have been a genocide against blacks". Please out of your habit for generalization, please don't think that all people are as barbaric as the Sanghis. You should have been in the USA after 9/11 to see how the people and the government took great care so that no hate crimes are committed. You sound so pathetic. It is a known fact and is obvious to any mind with common sense that it is the minorities who are more vulnerable than the majority... if you don't believe it, we have the Gujarat example still almost alive. The hysteria u Sanghis try to inculcate by spreading lies about the insecurity of Hindus is designed by the concious effort of your higher bosses, and you often don't question and ask your self... what if what we were told were wrong? Wake up pal! you have been used. Come out of your slumber and join us the human civilization (again?). The fact is that what happened in Godhra is still shrouded in mystery, who attacked who first who started the quarrel, why the quarrel was started etc all remain somewhat a mystery... regardless of what went on in Godhra the death of so many women and children is extremely regrettable... whether the VHP activists themselves had a part to play in spreading the fire or not is irrelevant. The fact is that innocent people died and the culprits ought to be punished after investigation. In reality the quarrel, the fight the burning of the train, the ensuing riots may all have a common cause which many of you Sangh activists have not realized. The common root cause are the lies of your elders and the trash they have filled in your minds... I am so sorry to point the finger at your elders... but the liers and the killers need to be exposed... so sorry pal, but try to understand. |
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shahid 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 201 of 288 ) correction to my previous post: your post #198 is what I am refering to. |
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shahid 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 202 of 288 ) Friends, Let's have an honest discussion here. I think Arvraj is determined to speak against me because of my anti-Sangh stance, and he loves the Sangh for some reason unknown to me... so I have a tendency not to take him so seriously. However, if some others think that there are things and concepts wrong with my arguments please point it out to me... I want to learn if I have made mistakes... Let there be light and let the truth prevail. Thank you so much for your patience. |
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gandalf 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 203 of 288 ) Avraj: You sad brain washed automaton. You are free to belive that the BD is nationistic etc. I know that they are lumpen manipulated fools lead by insidious Sangh leaders. I feel sorry for your conditioned mind. India is the only culture where a system has convinced a set of people that they are inferior than others for 3000 years> That is an unmatched feat and simply stunning. So I am not surprised that morinic brainwased fools like you exist.. however well meaning. On the Second Point. WHO ARE YOU TO DECIDE WHAT I SHOULD THINK AS AN INDIAN. PLESE KEEP THAT IN YOUR SHAKAS. i CAN BE AN INDIAN WHICH MEANS I DONT HAVE TO TOW ANYONES LINE. |
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gandalf 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 204 of 288 ) Avraj: "blacks would have burnt whites then there would have been a genocide against blacks". You are scary because these sound bytes have obviously been put into you. It is sad that decent people get so bloody well used and manipulated. question and think my friend.. try not to parrot |
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arvraj 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 205 of 288 ) shahid, you seemed to be prejudiced against Sangh this is evident from the way you are spilling venom against it. Let me clarify your points one by one. You said Mahatma Gandhi was killed by an RSS activist. You are absolutely wrong, he was assasinated by Nathuram Godse who belonged to Hindu Maha Sabha. If you don't believe this fact please read "Freedom at Midnight" by Larry Collins and Dominique Lapierre and you would know the fact. Well the book is written by foreign authors so I hope you would trust them and don't say they have Sangh background. How could you spread lies like this without verifying the facts. What has happened in Gujrat is very sad and I am not supporting those killings. I want the culprits be punished severely. I would like to know why everybody is reacting only for the Gujrat riot victims, where was this sympathy when Hindus were killed in several riots earlier. To name one, the barbaric killings of Hindus in Hyderabad in 1992. Nobody said anything that time, Why? When thousands of innocent Hindus were killed, their women raped and driven out of the Kashmir valley, nobody fought for them, Why? Just because they are Hindus and their lives don't matter at all. I am only against this biased sympathy, I have never seen any of the so called secular leader or any Muslim leader condemn those incidents. Why didn't Hindu killings appear inhuman to them at that time. This is what I am against. About the Sangh supporters in Parliament, I would say its Muslims who have more support there than Sangh. There are so many pseudo-secular parties and its members whose one point aim is to appease the minorities. They don't care the seriousness of the issue but just oppose it to get Muslim votes. They have even opposed a anti-terror law like POTO just for the sake of Muslim votes. What should I say about the secular Congress party whose prime minister cancelled a Supreme Court verdict in case of Shah Bano, because it was against Muslim personal law. Now you tell me, when Muslims have so many supporters in Parliament, is it wrong for the Sangh to have some. |
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arvraj 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 206 of 288 ) shahid, talking about the 9/11 incidents, you say I should have been in US. Well for your kind information I am in US and that too in NY and I know what happened there on or after 9/11. You know what kind of bad name Muslims have earned for themselves in US. Americans hate Muslims and especially Asian Muslims. Just because of the physical features even Asian non-Muslims had to bear the brunt of the hatred. You said Sangh spreads lies about the insecurity of Hindus, don't you think this is a fact. What happened to Hindus in Kashmir. Hindus cannot even go on a pilgrimage to Amarnath or Vaishno Devi. Islamic fanatics even entered a temple in Jammu and killed Hindus. Hindus cannot peacefully take out religious processions because they are afraid of communal violence which repeats every year during Ganesh festival. Is this not enough to say that Hindus are insecure. About pointing fingers at our elders, our elders have taught us to show our second cheek if someone slaps on the first one. But this is being perceived as our weakness. Any fragile living being would fight when its existence becomes a question mark. I agree, whatever happened in Godhra and post Godhra incidents should be probed and the culprits be punished. Also, its the Muslims who walk into the trap of anti-national jehadis easily and not Hindus. Hindus cannot go anywhere but Muslims always look towards Pakistan and other Arab countries for their ideology. God only knows why? |
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luvvmann 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 207 of 288 ) arvraj, your are wasting your time with shahid (gentleman jehadi) and gandalf (stupid commie imbecile). the first is a closet pakistani or a real pakistani. the second an idiotic so-called dravidian commie natinalist who hates everyone north of kodaikanal. this gandalf is a typical self hating moron whose time has come for elimination. it looks like vajpayee has gotten his brains back in-tact after loosing them at lahore and agra. making friends with the pakistani bastards is impossible as you know. you are from hyderabad and you know how the muslim matherchots there behave like (owaisi and others). gandalf is living in a hateful dream land (hates hindi, hates hindu, hates aryans, hates india, hates himself first). this backward fool is deluded into thinking he is progressive, just like our dear monkey friend from calcutta jyothi basu. kill pakistan first. kill indian jehadis next. then kill all commie bastards. these chutiyas are a bunch of apes (sorry to insult apes), leave them alone to fry in their jehadi and communist hell. |
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fayaz 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 208 of 288 ) 'you know how the muslim matherchots there behave like ' I cannot understand why you seem to be biased against muslims go greatly, but I can see that it is perhaps because of people like you who believe in offending others that no community, majority or minority, is able to introspect and come to terms with it's shortcomings and try and resolve them. Harsh words even if said for to achieve something better usually fall flat on the face of the speaker before reaching the ears of the listener. Carry On... |
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shahid 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 209 of 288 ) arvraj, I tried to verify which organization godse belonged to. Yes, you were right there he was from Hindu Mahasabha, that was a slight mistake I made out of misinformation. It doesnot matter nonetheless. What is more important is that he was a member of the Sangh Parivar. This Sanghi Parivar is a very melleable group of fanatics. They can easily transform into terrorists like Nathuram Godse or politicians like Advani. It doesnot matter they come from the same Parivar and extract influence and protection one from the other. It is a fact known to all that the same Sangh Parivar killed Gandhiji and was responsible for the recent anti-Muslim pogroms. Sorry for the error. |
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shahid 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 210 of 288 ) arvraj, Despite living in the USA that you could make statements like, "If the same thing would have happened in other countries like US where if blacks would have burnt whites then there would have been a genocide against blacks", shows the amount of lies you can invent, twist the facts and concoct false tales. I donot wish to reply to the rest of your post because it is just repetition of the standard cry of the psyched up and hysterical (perhaps cornered) Sanghi mind. Your sickness seems to be deep rooted. By your mails it seems to me that you maynot just be a blind follower of the Sanghi ideology but may actually be leading this hate campaign with deliberate malicious intentions. Your lies expose you, dear. Please return to civilization and spare the souls of the rest of us Indians. |
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gandalf 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 211 of 288 ) Good to have you back lowman.. Tore a muscle in shaka drills? 1. I dont understand avraj point on Muslim (or what ever) self control. Why should Muslims prevent Muslim law breakers?. Should the "Hindu Community" come out and stop say don Muthapa Rai? It is the responsibility of the state to catch and punish lawbreakers. Not communities. 2. "You said Mahatma Gandhi was killed by an RSS activist. You are absolutely wrong". Yo!!!.. He was killed by an Eskimo then 3."I have never seen any of the so called secular leader or any Muslim leader condemn those incidents". Standard refrain of brainwashed Sanghis. What is the point? 4. "Hindu insecurities because of Amarnath" Another stupid sangi refrain. I am insecure in Harlem, does that mean that I have to Kill blacks, I am insecure at night on Delhi's highways.. so I hate Delhiites???. This is number 3 in the STUPID SANGHIS HANDBOOK. |
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munna 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 212 of 288 ) luwmann, History repeats itself. You are going in circles again. A wordcheck on your posts throws up the same list of words in different permutations/combinations - 'jehadi', 'motherfucker', 'matherchod', 'bastard','commie'....etc. You have posted a few sensible messages. Mind doing that again ? |
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munna 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 213 of 288 ) Arvraj, "I want every individual who was involved in the riots which have taken place earlier also be punished otherwise it would be a gross injustice" If you can find/prove a crime against all those people, GO AHEAD ! And when I say the same thing, why does it sound communist/pseudo secularist /biased against Hindus /pro-Muslim ? |
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munna 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 214 of 288 ) arvraj, "Muslims should curb the jehadi elements among their community" I have asked you this question before and I ask you again. Mind telling me what you have done to curb the 'Bajrang dalis/Shiv sainiks' in your community ? |
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luvvmann 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 215 of 288 ) munna, yes, i have used bad language when required against people who deserve it. chutiya gandalf is an example. did i use that against you. NO. you are sensible even though i don't agree with you. i don't abuse people because i don't agree with them. it is their point of view. that is fine. i said yourself and anwarsad were sensible muslims. i have nothing against sensible muslims. i will kill jehadis where ever i find them. pakistani bastards need to be fixed now. that will happen soon as vajpayee has stopped with his stupid love affair with musharraf (stupidity to the exteme). after that jehadis in india need fixing (ex. shahabuddin bastard, bukhari bastard etc.). gandus like gandalf are an insult to the human race. the fucker is an insult even to apes. this vohesendhan bastard is that same kind. so-called dravidian sister fucking nationalists who are gadhe ka lands, kuthe ke aulad. motherfuckers are anti-national pedophiles (their leader was). their time is coming too. |
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shahid 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 216 of 288 ) What an impression this little squadron of the Sanghi army creates on these message boards! 1.arvraj: the hate spewing, xenophobic sorcerer, who can hardly innovate upon the lessons taught to him by his higher ranking Sanghi sorcerers. He repeats the same lessons over and over again, but doesnot really matter given the level of IQ of his bhakts and followers. 2.lowmann: the lowest of men to have ever stalked the earth, trained in the subtle art of communal war in the best of RSS shakhas, this ruthless, trishul wielding, bloodthirsty warrior... is the right hand man and a devout bhakt of arvraj and all the higher sorcerers; 3.Karapall: the slave, servant and peasant is devoted to the cause of his masters arvraj and lowmann and other high ranking Sanghi officials and sorcerers. He tills the fields and works hard for the well being and happiness of his masters... can on occasion also take up the sword against the Sanghi enemy(the humans). The Sanghi army of misanthropes is challenging and threatening the very fundamentals of human civilization. Time has come folks, that all the like minded civilized tribes amongst us humans form alliance, get organized and put up stern resistance against this man-hating army, and destroy their bases with severe destruction. The basic essence of our humanness is under threat, and we must put aside our past differences and unite against these demons... for the collective good of all our furure generations, in this our beautiful country. Pleasantries for my human comrades, destruction for the Sangh Parivar. PS. Didnot they kill Safdar Hashmi, the great human martyr for standing up and challenging them? Let us not waste the blood of our martyrs Mahatma Gandhi, Safdar Hashmi, Ehsan Jafri or the common people of Gujarat... or anywhere else. |
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luvvmann 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 217 of 288 ) shahid, thank you for the tear jerker. now you are a fan of mahatma gandhi. i am touched. if musharraf's army were to reach delhi, you would be the first to kneel down and suck his dick. you would even lick his stinking asshole. imbecile matherchot, i have not heard anything from you about the atrocities by pakistan in kashmir. i have not heard anything from you about the sister fucking assholes like bukhari and shahabuddin. i have not heard anything from you on SIMI and the general comunal nature of the muslim community. the only reason muslims profess secularism in india is because of their numbers (15% today and unfortunately increasing). gadhe, suwar ke aulad who are you trying to kid with your praise of safdar hashmi, mahatma gandhi etc. do you believe in non-violence sister fucker. does the muslim community believe in it suwar ki gand. let me tell you chutiya, that your misleading bullshit does not wash. and let me add that the RSS etc. are not the same as SIMI etc. there is a vast difference. assholes like you and your monkey fiends like gandalf, tathaghat do not have the intellectual capacity to differentiate that. you are faggots getting buggerred by dirty stinking mullahs who don't bathe. somebody tell these assholes that arabs do not bathe because they do not have much water in the desert. these mullahs should take a shower once in a while, so that, you dick sucking assholes don't develop some disease. stop using attar and clean that dirty stinking mind of yours if you have any. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 218 of 288 ) munna: "Just out of curiosity, what is your source of this info (SIMI being responsible for Godhra) ?" Read this report from India Today. http://www.hvk.org/articles/0302/55. html |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 219 of 288 ) shahid, The question paki motherfuckers like you need to ask yourself is: how is spamming on an Indian billboard by pretending to be an Indian going to help save pakistan. As for your brilliant psychoanalysis of my actions, I can say little else other than "I am stunned by your perspicacity". "The Sanghi army of misanthropes is challenging and threatening the very fundamentals of human civilization." You mean, unlike the barbaric jihadi hordes that you have anal sex with on a regular basis?? Jihadi motherfuckers like you need to understand that NO ONE will take any pious pronouncements about human rights and love from you barbarians seriously. Your actions speak louder than your fake civilized tone. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 220 of 288 ) shahid: "Pleasantries for my human comrades, destruction for the Sangh Parivar." Yo paki motherfucker, you shouldn't have said this. It exposes your paki origins...especially since this rhetoric matches the rhetoric of the paki government word for word. Better luck on your next "Indian" handle. |
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arvraj 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 221 of 288 ) shahid, I am really surprised by your silly nature, inspite of agreeing that Nathuram Godse didn't belong to RSS, you again say Sanghi's killed Gandhi. What can I say about your irrational thinking. Read "Freedom at Midnight" and verify all your doubts about Partition and who was affected etc. Hindus never indulged in any anti-mulsim pograms. Gujrat incident is only a retaliation for what mulsims have done to Hindus. Muslims have started the fire by burning Hindus in a gruesome way. Retaliation would definetely come after such a thing. It was muslims who have the jehadi mentality in them and they are the ones who believe in the theory that all non-muslims are kafirs and it is okay to kill them. If this is not true then Bin laden and other terrorists groups wouldn't have found so many sympathizers in India. If Muslims control the jehadis among them definetely Hindus would be able to control VHP/BJ as these organizations gained popularity because Hindus had no other go. Also it would be very good if you accept the facts about Muslims then the discussion would be more constructive. |
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shahid 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 222 of 288 ) Arvraj, Most of your points are so silly that I dont care to answer them... I will however reply to your 3rd and last paragraphs. Firstly all non-Muslims are indeed Kafirs, because that is precisely what Kafir means. Kafir, is originally an Arabic word which means non-believer, in the specific sense it means one who doesnot believe in the message of Islam. Unfortunately, this word has often been misused by many Muslims who often used it to ridicule the disbelievers, taking pride in their rich culture and heritage... obviously pride is not a part of Islam and hence wrong. That is these people were wrong to use the word to demean other people and to assert their supremacy etc. What is wrong is wrong... but that doesnot change the truth. That doesnot change the mission and purpose of Islam. As a Muslim I believe that Islam is the need of every human individual. I believe humans can gain greatly from belief in one God and Islam. Also note that I believe it is a big crime to kill any human (including non-Muslims). The Qur'an says(close meaning): "If anyone kills even one human it is as if he killed the whole of humanity"... and I believe in it. I am not too sure how many Indians support Bin Laden etc. The fact is that there are lesser Muslim hardliners in India than Hindu hardliners. Hindu hardliners are a bigger threat to unity and integrity of India than Muslim hardliners of India. Note that I am not speaking for all the world's Muslims. I am focussing only on India. Muslim hardline groups like Deendar Anjuman and SIMI are already banned whereas the Hindu hardline groups RSS, BJP, VHP, Bajrang Dal, Shiv Sena, etc are still active. Please think Arvraj, thinking will help us a lot. Thanks. |
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jbindra 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 223 of 288 ) We shall overcome. shahid : As a Muslim I believe that Islam is the need of every human individual I mean no offence to what you have just said, but lets not try and tell other people what to do and follow. Lets just try to be good followers of our own religion before we go around preaching to other people. Hindu hardliners are a bigger threat to unity and integrity of India than Muslim hardliners of India. Truthfully all hardliners ought to be shot by a firing squad. Professing hatred on the basis of religion tantamounts to treason. Be it the Bajrang Dal or the SIMI. All organizations should be banned. However, I agree with you that one sided action by the government makes Hindu fundamentalism a greater evil than is Muslim fundamentalism. All these organizations should be booked under POTA and all their activists should be hanged for sedition. |
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shahid 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 224 of 288 ) JBindra, You are right that it is not good to be telling other people what to do what not to do... or trying to enforce one's own ideas on other people. I generally don't do it. It is in forums like this only that I get the reason and opportunity to do so. Moreover in post # 180 Arvraj had said that he wanted to discuss issues thread bare... so I wanted him and other people to know my thoughts thread bare or whatever... |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 225 of 288 ) shahid lies through his teeth: "Kafir, is originally an Arabic word which means non-believer, in the specific sense it means one who doesnot believe in the message of Islam. Unfortunately, this word has often been misused by many Muslims who often used it to ridicule the disbelievers, taking pride in their rich culture and heritage... " Muslim shits like you should not lie about such things: the Quran explicitly calls for the conversion/killing of Kafirs. I had already posted those verses from the Quran earlier and I will do so again, so that muslim bastards like you do not lie about the viciousness against non muslims inherent in your religion. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 226 of 288 ) jbindra: "Truthfully all hardliners ought to be shot by a firing squad. Professing hatred on the basis of religion tantamounts to treason." But your hatred for hardliners is okay?? Please do explain that, you bigoted piece of punjabi NRI shit. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 227 of 288 ) jbindra: "However, I agree with you that one sided action by the government makes Hindu fundamentalism a greater evil than is Muslim fundamentalism." Let us see now: terrorist acts by muslim fundies in the last decade: 400+ terrorist acts by hindu fundies in the same period: less than 10. So how do you reconcile this reality with your worthless opinion above, you brainless fuk. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 228 of 288 ) shahid: "As a Muslim I believe that Islam is the need of every human individual" As a christian, I believe that people like you must be wiped out with extreme prejudice, given that your above point of view is also shared by Bin Laden and all the islamic jihadi terrorists all over the world. You are essentially saying that spreading islam across the world (by force if necessary, as specified in the hadiths) is more important than allowing people to follow whatever religion they see fit, and focus on economic development and enrichment of the human soul and consciousness. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 229 of 288 ) jbindra seems to think that hardliners and fundies must be shot, which probably mirrors the hardliners' feelings for people like him. The reality is that hardliners, moderates, idiots, geniuses, saints, sinners, and pretty much everyone is part of the system, and one hope that the self-interests of these various groups will force them to tolerate each other, as demonstrated by various studies on group behavior and game theory simulations. However, muslims as a group would like to be treated well by all other groups, but insist that they must be allowed to treat non muslims like shit, because it would be anti-muslim and non secular to insist that muslims reciprocate the behavior of non muslims towards them. This is a fundamental imbalance that must be addressed by the muslim community, unless they want others to do it for them by force or by isolation. |
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fayaz 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 230 of 288 ) Karapall -- Muslim shits like you should not lie about such things: the Quran explicitly calls for the conversion/killing of Kafirs. I had already posted those verses from the Quran earlier and I will do so again, so that muslim bastards like you do not lie about the viciousness against non muslims inherent in your religion. A couple of clarifications for you Karapall. Yes, Kafir means a non believer. However, when you refer to those verses when one is called upon to battle them is when these non-believers in question are aggressors who have put the peace of the muslim people to the sword and not been persuaded by negotiation or reason. The second instance where you cite conversion of non-believers. If you have read the Quran, then you are aware of the verse (Surah 109), pasted as under for your perusal. Conversion in Islam is considered to be effected by God himself and he asks that his followers correct their ways first before professing to others. Since there are very strict standards expected of believers, hardly any are eligible for evangelism. The Disbelievers, Atheists Say : O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine. I hope it makes it clear to you that as long as Muslims are left in peace, it is incumbent upon them to not harm anyone or any life. Unfortunately, being a religion with a massive following we have people who twist God's word with wonderful oratory and they are destined for hell and an irrevocable doom. I hope this has quelled your misunderstanding about Islam. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 231 of 288 ) fayaz: "However, when you refer to those verses when one is called upon to battle them is when these non-believers in question are aggressors who have put the peace of the muslim people to the sword and not been persuaded by negotiation or reason." Yes, I am aware of that. In fact, the exact wording states that it is a fight against injustice imposed on islam and muslims by aggressors. However, the sticking point that makes this completely unacceptable is the fact that "injustice to muslims" could be pretty much anything. As we can see today, muslims seem to think that if the US supports israel against palestine, then some random muslim from libya, pakistan, other country has the god-given right to go kill americans, christians, jews, and hindus who support the americans, and anyone else who dares to side with the americans BECAUSE ALL MUSLIMS owe their FIRST allegiance to islam and ONLY THEN to the state they are in. This attitude of callous disregard for human life and capacity to indulge in obscene violence is derived directly from the authority of the Quran, which explicitly states that christians and jews are the enemies of muslims. Again, I will repost the verse/sura numbers so that people can verify these facts about the Quran on their own. The bottomline is that the jihadi terrorist view of the world is completely compatible with your above perspective; again, the issue is "what constitutes injustice against muslims?" And who defines it?? If every muslim subgroup redefines its incompetence to compete in the wider world as some sort of "perceived injustice". Muslims in India for example, remain backward because the muslim political leaders dont find it in their best interests to liberate and educate muslims. What they DO PREACH to their flock is that the reason for the terrible state of muslims in because of the evil communal hindus and the evil christians who want to keep the muslims down. This directly translates to "injustice" in the illiterate muslim mind steeped in the Quran. It is short step from here to proclaiming jihad against every non muslim in India. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 232 of 288 ) fayaz, As for "persuasion or reason", if the logic used by the terrorist asshole arafat, where he pretends to be reasonable AS LONG AS everyone gives him EXACTLY what he wants. If he does not get 100%, he tells his followers to strap bombs on their bodies and go kill a few jews. And everytime that happens, muslims all over the world CELEBRATE (!!!) these homicide bombers, as can be evinced from the fact that ALL MUSLIM COUNTRIES in the middle east have fund raisers on TV glorifying these suicide bombers. In fact, most muslims see nothing wrong with what the palestinians are doing. This, in essence, is the violent barbarism that is inherent in islam that pits random people against each other all for the "greater glory of islam" |
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fayaz 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 233 of 288 ) Karapall -- Your points are valid. How does one define 'injustice'. Most people including Muslims, believe that injustice is meeted out when they are not allowed to practise their faith or are endangered because of their religious subscriptions. However, the pronouncement of an action or incident as an injustice is not to be undertaken by an individual but a group of learned scholars in council. Unfortunately, as the world has it today, due to the interests of a certain number of wicked people in Islam, any utterance against Islam is portrayed as injustice, though it might be a manifestation of truth. The other reason why this goes on is because most Muslims have not undertaken a through study of their belief. As far as your reference to Palestine is concerned, it is a totally different arena where I do believe that Palestinians (which includes Jews and Arabs of Palestinian descent) have been given a raw deal. When you talk of Arafat -- He is powerless as he does not control the militia or is a leader of the Palestinians. If Palestine were to go to the ballot box, Hannan Ashrafi would be the next eminent leader of Palestine. However, most people do not know that she is Christian and enjoys greater support than does Arafat. But that aside. Both Sharon and Arafat need to quit the animosity (they wanted to kill one another when Sharon was an army regular and Arafat was a Hamas militia man), come to the table, apologise to the people who have suffered and work out a solution. We can start a whole another discussion on the Palestine conflict, but I dont think that it is the major point of conversation here. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 234 of 288 ) fayaz, "Unfortunately, as the world has it today, due to the interests of a certain number of wicked people in Islam, any utterance against Islam is portrayed as injustice, though it might be a manifestation of truth. " The point muslims seem to miss that IT CANNOT BE A CRIME TO SAY BAD THINGS ABOUT ISLAM. PEOPLE SAY BAD THINGS ABOUT HINDUISM AND CHRISTIANITY ALL THE TIME. That is no excuse to claim that people who dont like islam must be killed for the greater good of islam. Note how ALL INDIAN MUSLIMS supported the killing of Rushdie for the satanic verses, even though none of the muslim clowns I met had ever actually read the book, BUT STILL SUPPORTED THE FATWA ON RISHDIE. The reason they did that is primarily because islam tells them to do so; this fact can be brushed under the carpet as an inconvenience by Indian muslims. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 235 of 288 ) fayaz: "The other reason why this goes on is because most Muslims have not undertaken a through study of their belief." On the contrary, muslims who actually read all of the Quran like the whabbis and deobandis seem to produce the maximum number of jihadi terrorist vermin. So your above contention is a load of crap. The parts in the Quran that explicitly call for violence against non muslims is probably not known to most muslims who dont know enough about the Quran. Once these muslims ACTUALLY READ the Quran, they seem to turn into a bucnh of bigoted, communal scumbags. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 236 of 288 ) fayaz: "When you talk of Arafat -- He is powerless as he does not control the militia or is a leader of the Palestinians." This is a bare-faced lie and you know it. ARAFAT was SOLELY RESPONSIBLE FOR WALKING AWAY FROM THE PEACE TREATY IN 1999. Israel offerred 97% (!!!) of the land back for peace, but this bastard arafat refused to accept it. The worst part is muslims like you seem to pretend that such a thing ever happened. This is the reason why people who follow the news can see clear behavioral patterns among so-called muslim jihad, and recognize it correctly as liitle more than vicious terrorism that MUST BE SNUFFED OUT WITH EXTREME PREJUDICE. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 237 of 288 ) fayaz, One final point: the reason why israel is forced to do what it does, is because the palestinians REFUSE TO ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY AND SAY THAT THEY WILL CEASE ALL SUICIDE BOMBINGS. Also, palestine issue is entirely relevant because of the glorification of homicide bombing terrorists who strap bombs to their bodies and kill non muslim women and childres --- these peopkle are glorified as TRUE MUSLIMS!!!!! Muslims CANNOT and MUST NOT convenient ignore such ugly warts on the face of islam. Muslims never seem to ask "why are there more vicious terrorist psychopaths bred in islam than in any other religion??", especially since that question is central to bringing back world peace today...the only other option is a rerun of the crusades, this time with nuclear weapons. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 238 of 288 ) fayaz: "However, the pronouncement of an action or incident as an injustice is not to be undertaken by an individual but a group of learned scholars in council." So you think that muslims can indulge in criminally violent behavior (not to mention, ILLEGAL behavior) AS LONG AS "a group of learned [muslim] scholars" tell them to do so?? I see, so you are saying that all islamic terrorism that is being propagated by mullahs (who are clearly learned men) is in fact alright?? I must at least congratulate you for accepting that you support mullah-induced islamic terrorism. Good going, fayaz. |
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fayaz 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 239 of 288 ) Karapall -- Let me take another opportunity to answer your messages above. a) Your allusion to Rushdie was one which identifies the problem succintly. Rushdie's work was considered as blasphemous, but he did not wrong anyone; simply tried to make a point. Since most people dont know what he's talking about, with context to the Koran or his book, they tend to follow what they are fed. It's not because they are ignorant or innately given to rivalry but the point that they do not know their own scriptures and the context behind it to make judgements for themselves. b)The deobandis and wahabi schools are two different ones. Wahabis are the puritans who impose extreme penance on their followers while Deobandis are more liberal. However, when you talk of interpretations of the Koran - the wahabi version is one with a Muslim world view. You will observe that though these schools may interpret terms like injustice and jihad, none of their members have been actively found to be involved in crime. Which again brings me to the same point -- it is people who simply take the word and not the spirit who go about causing menace. c) Jihad -- It means a struggle and if you are aware of Koranic scripture, it has no allusion to voilence. It was Khomeni's regime which convoluted this term to garner support for his revolution in Iran. Perhaps it's like Hindutva. In essence there is nothing wrong with the term, but when used in context of "Hindustan for Hindus" that it becomes jaded. d) When you talk of Palestine, you ignore that Israel is situated on Palestinian land. Further in Israel, other than Jews, no one is allowed to own property or conduct trade. Further, I would like to suggest that you also feel pain for those people who are killed and shot regularly by Israeli forces when the cross the street or play a game. For the Israeli's it's just target practise. No party in that conflict can claim moral high ground. Suicide Bombing is WRONG, but do analyse what other options the Palestinians have to voice the oppression that they are facing. Also, your comment on the Camp David accord. The point of contention was the immediate stop to the expansion of Jewish settlements in Palestine. It is the same situation in essence between India and Pakistan. We talk but they keep sending terrorists to our country. Likewise, even after the accord, Israel could have still expanded to take over all of Palestine and that's where it failed. e) Finally your reference to 'injustice'. There very strict standards of review for this and not just a bunch of bearded individuals can go about pronouncing an act as injustice. Also, please note MULLAHS ARE NOT LEARNED MEN. The very term mullah is insulting and frought with condescion. The other thing that I overlooked to mention is that no matter what you are called upon to do in the name of injustice by whichever learned scholar, if you or your moral standards deem it wrong, it is to be opposed and not given into. So if a bearded goon tells me that your attempts at twisting my words is an injustice and I should kill you for it, believe me, good sense will prevail and nothing untoward will happen. In conclusion, Karapall -- we must talk with an open mind and not try to reach a certain pre-meditated conclusion; that I am a Jihadi fundamentalist who endorses terrorism or that youre a astute follower of the VHP who tries to brand every Muslim as an accomplice to terror, by twisting their words. Behind all this we are human beings of reason and good will and one that is recognised, there is scope for amity and a long road towards progress, which will be walked on together. |
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jbindra 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 240 of 288 ) We shall overcome. Fayaz : You seem to be under the illusion that Karapal, Luvvman and similar cronies are here for an informed discussion and intellectual deliberation. Wake Up and smell the air my friend. If they caught hold of you, they will roast you first and talk about Islam and its problems later. They are just here to promote a saffronized view of India based on majority oppression. Even if Islam was the best god damned relgion on earth, they would still not be convinced. Dont bother to waste your time with him. |
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jbindra 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 241 of 288 ) We shall overcome. Karapall : They have some unsavoury words for your likes in the literary circles, which are said when one is most disgusted by a person's conduct. Eat penguin shit, you ass belonker ! You surely have a stamina for tirelessly typing nonsense and profanity without shame or any sign of ignominy. No wonder the Sangh does such a good job of turning poor kids into complete Zombies, such as your perverted self. |
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qasim 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 242 of 288 ) Karapall:"However, the sticking point that makes this completely unacceptable is the fact that "injustice to muslims" could be pretty much anything". Karapall, you have a point there... that is what is known as Jahalat... an improper understanding can lead to out of proportional response. The learned Scholars know their concepts and the History very well. It is the enlightened scholars who should be heeded to, not quacks. |
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gandalf 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 243 of 288 ) I dont understand why Parrot qasim and fellow human Fayaz (in a tendency which I see across) quote the quoran to support/disprove/indicate "Muslim Behaviour. The FUNDAMENTAL ASSUMPTION here is that all muslims adhere to some quoronic law. That is HORSESHIT. I know it says in the Bible 'though shall not kill'. I dont see Christians defending or dissassociating from a murderer or criminal by saying Bible says dont kill so the murderer is not a Xtian. No.. They go after the guys even if its a Priest because the guy has broken the law of the land. Can you explain this tendency to me? |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 244 of 288 ) fayaz: "However, when you talk of interpretations of the Koran - the wahabi version is one with a Muslim world view. You will observe that though these schools may interpret terms like injustice and jihad, none of their members have been actively found to be involved in crime. " This is again a bare-faced lie and you know it. ALL THE TERRORIST MADRASSAS IN PAKISTAN and in INDIA (along the bangladesh/nepal border) are saudi-funded wahabbi madrassas, and all these schools --- WITHOUT AN EXCEPTION -- are responsible fore breeding islamic jihadi terrorists. So please do cut the crap about wahabbis being the most pious, peacefultypes on this planet. Sheesh, when will people like you learn NOT TO LIE ABOUT VERFIABLE FACTS?? |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 245 of 288 ) qasim: "The learned Scholars know their concepts and the History very well. It is the enlightened scholars who should be heeded to, not quacks" And will you allow non muslims to decide which one is a quack and which one is not?? Muslims like you seem to claim that any one who ACTUALLY READS THE QURAN or its translation is not qualified to interpret it -- ONLY MULLAHS are qualified to interpret it. This seems to be a very convenient ploy by muslims like you to keep non muslims in the dark about all the vicious hatred propagated by the Quran. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 246 of 288 ) gandalf: "They go after the guys even if its a Priest because the guy has broken the law of the land. Can you explain this tendency to me?" Pardon the interruption, but I believe this has already been answered. Fayaz already stated openly that for muslims, the laws of the land are secondary to the Quranic laws as interpreted by their mullahs. Right, fayaz?? |
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qasim 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 247 of 288 ) Karapall:"And will you allow non muslims to decide which one is a quack and which one is not?? " Karapall, If someone is a quack or not can be decided by testing his knowledge of the Qur'an, Hadith as well as the amount of knowledge of Islamic history during and after the Prophet(pbuh)... also preferably of history before the Prophet(pbuh) and histories of other regions, peoples and cultures. I can assure you there are lots of people within India who are very qualified to pass responsible fatwas which will not only benefit Muslims but also people from other communities. More than the benefit to Muslims and other communities such people are needed to actually first control the aggression of ignorants amongst Muslims who respond irresponsibly and out of proportion to anything which may go against Muslim interests. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 248 of 288 ) http://www.washtimes.com/world/20020603-1336256.ht m If we go by qasim and fayaz, this imam of the mosque of mecca has now openly called for a jihad against hindus. I suppose muslims like fayaz will now rush to listen to this imam who is clearly a Quranic scholar. So when are you guys going to purchase some AK-47s and plastic explosives to wage jihad against christians, jews, and hindus?? The imam of Mecca has already called for your services. |
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fayaz 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 249 of 288 ) Karapall -- I think you overlooked the what I had mentioned previously -- that if the call for any extreme measures by any cleric is made and an individual is in opposition to it, he should not heed the call and instead oppose it aggressively. You should not worry, as you yourself mentioned, I will continue to sing Kumbaya with my friends and not wage jehad. If it pleases you by me accepting that I am a findamentalist hardline fanatic jehadi. Then let it so be. For you will never see the truth unless you lift the veil that covers your eyes. |
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fayaz 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 250 of 288 ) Gandalf -- I agree with you that to use the Koran as a justification for violence is wrong and the guilty warrant punishment. But we need to explain a few things to people who see Islam as a violent religion. A) It is not the Islamic religion which calls for or justifies violence. B) It is the demented and criminal minded who use it for justifying thier acts. C) We need to make Muslims and other onlookers realise this subtle difference and how these criminals methodically twist and misinterpret what is in actuality totally banned. This is the only long lasting way to curb the colloquial 'jehadis'. Killing them will only make a bunch more spring up. (btw : This does not mean that they should not be punished for their crimes.) D) Koran or no Koran. Killing conducted with malice is a crime and calls for punishment and so it should be. No muslim glorify's the 9-11 bombers. But you just cant brand all Muslims as terrorists because of a few. Thats all I want to explain to Karapall -- but it seems its not an explanation that he seeks, but malacious arguement. |
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fayaz 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 251 of 288 ) Karapall -- I think you overlooked the what I had mentioned previously -- that if the call for any extreme measures by any cleric is made and an individual is in opposition to it, he should not heed the call and instead oppose it aggressively. You should not worry, as you yourself mentioned, I will continue to sing Kumbaya with my friends and not wage jehad. If it pleases you by me accepting that I am a findamentalist hardline fanatic jehadi. Then let it so be. For you will never see the truth unless you lift the veil that covers your eyes. |
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fayaz 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 252 of 288 ) Karapall -- Finally, The Imam of Mecca is a religious cleric. He has no right to suggest what Muslims should do or not do. It is for the scholars of Muslim jurisprudence and people who study the region who are to suggest a course of action, which btw : isnt to go about killing any one who isnt a Muslim. I would have taken pains to explain the whole system to you, but I beg your pardon -- I have realised that those terrorists who use "jehad" as their pep word are as ignorant as you who is simply looking for a reason to villify others. I know it will make no difference and because it is so, it isn't worth the effort. |
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qasim 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 253 of 288 ) Karapall:"The imam of Mecca has already called for your services". Karapall, People like you always seem to work by exaggerating the problem and causing hysteria. I don't know the qualifications of the Imam of Mecca... even if he is most highly qualified... which I think he is not, he doesnot understand the details of the situation inside India and that there are so many good people inside India who are willing to help us out and support us in our crises. In this case we need to listen to Indian scholars and not foreign ones, because it is the local scholars who know the details... moreover Indian Hindus and Muslims are like cousins one of another; we are closer related by race and linage than to the Arabs. Even though the decisions should be made on the basis of right or wrong... I feel a natural instinct to be more considerate to my fellow countrymen whom I feel are like my cousins, and even though I am no scholar I think my instinct has Islamic justification. It is important that Indian Muslims listen to local scholars rather than international ones even if the international scholars may be more learned, I feel. |
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gandalf 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 254 of 288 ) Good points Fayaz, Karapal and Qasim. based on the above can I ask: 1. Why should only a 'Scholar' be the person to interpret the Koran? Why cant the common man do it as in say Xtianity. Note This was a ploy used in all relegions but only Islam seems to be still caught in the quagmire 2. Nice of you Qasim to suddenly remember Indians as your cousins.. sort of proves what karapall said of opportunistic relationships doesnt it? 3. I think you should all join me in raising our middle fingers at the Imam of Mecca and continue with our discussions |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 255 of 288 ) qasim: "If someone is a quack or not can be decided by testing his knowledge of the Qur'an, Hadith as well as the amount of knowledge of Islamic history during and after the Prophet(pbuh)..." So you mean to say that when some muslim commits acts of terror against non muslims, we should rope in the terrorist's mullah to determine whether he understands the Quran before vilifying and wiping out the terrorist scum?? Secondly, if we go by hadith Chapter 19, verse 4294 (Kitab Al Jihad W'Alsiyar), it is the solemn duty of muslims to kills/terrorize kafirs in the name of islam. Now, if it turns out that this terrorist mullah only understood what the hadiths say a little too clearly (as I can bet is usually the case), then what?? THIS IS THE QUESTION THAT YOU AND FAYAZ SEEM TO BE DANCING AROUND. If the Quran is prone to be misinterpreted because of the inherently violent message that leaves little room for ambiguity, the why should non muslims give a rat's arse as to who is a good muslim or who is not?? It is upto the muslims themselves to moderate their own message, but from what I see Indian muslims ALWAYS seem to claim (except when under pressure to behave) that they are muslims first and Indians next, starting from Imam Bukhari to Syed Shahbuddin. Of course, India also has some fine patriots and outstanding men like Omar Abdullah and Abdul Kalam, but these are so far in the minority that it still does not make a difference with respect to the attitude of the average Indian muslim who knows enough material from the Quran to be dangerous (literally). also preferably of history before the Prophet(pbuh) and histories of other regions, peoples and cultures. |
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fayaz 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 256 of 288 ) Gandalf -- 1. Why should only a 'Scholar' be the person to interpret the Koran? Why cant the common man do it as in say Xtianity. Note This was a ploy used in all relegions but only Islam seems to be still caught in the quagmire Right On ! Atleast someone is asking the necessary questions.. You see Gandalf, in todays world, more Muslims as adherents of other religions do not take the time to read the scriptures themselves. Most people who do, parrot-ise (excuse my slang) it in Arabic. So they are technically as ignorant as a non Muslim. Islam calls upon its followers to realise and understand the true meaning of the Koran themselves. It is a great sin to take an adapted version. But then the Hadith (teachings of the prophet) mention that those who are not literate or too busy earning a living should seek the assistance of a scholar to embibe the tenets of the religion. Unfortunately in South Asia -- A scholar means someone who mugs up the Koran in Arabic and eschews some perverted ideology when questioned. However, we have some great Islamic scholars too, but they never seek the lime light or come under it as they hardly ever say anything controversial. In a perfect world we would not need scholars for interpreting anything for anyone. Alas ! The dream lives on. |
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fayaz 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 257 of 288 ) Karapall -- Let me first explain to you what a Hadith is. It is much akin to a testament of the bible; what the people recorded at the time of the prophets or caliphs. It is very susceptible to perversion as are some of the testaments of the bible. Gays and the KKK have modified the bible to their own convenience. (I have no hatred or ill will for either.) So that is what a Hadith is. Some of them are authentic and most are made up. Including the ones on Jihad. The Koran -- believed to be the word of God (and you will roast me on this) is the supreme authority as compared to a Hadith which is a human concoction and given to malice, prejudice and mischief. So the only authentic source for guidance is the Koran. Coming to your point. Muslims are not supposedly stupid to follow any Mullah or cleric. It is incumbent upon them to use their own morality and interpretation of the Koran to supercede any illogical diktat of Imam X or Mulla Y. If you read my post to Gandalf, you will realise why this is so much of a problem in these days. My friend, to end this message, an average Muslim as the same problems as the average Indian. He has to work hard, take care of his kids, educate them and marry them off and then take care of his own health. Now if you think with so many responsibilities to shoulder one has the time to be a fundamentalist hater of Hindus, please buy yourself an eyewash or send me your address -- I will gift you some. |
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gandalf 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 258 of 288 ) Clear Fayaz. Thks |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 259 of 288 ) fayaz: "Unfortunately in South Asia -- A scholar means someone who mugs up the Koran in Arabic and eschews some perverted ideology when questioned." This is also true of christian theologicians whose pet topic nowadays is creationism. It is inevitable that followers of a religion misinterpret their texts, not least because religious texts are usually deliberately vague and open to multiple seemingly correct interpretations. This is the reason why it is important that NO INTERPRETATION of the religious texts give a green signal to violence and terror, as the Quran and the Hadiths do. Requiring muslims to only consult competing mullahs is like asking Indian villagers to only go to competent doctors and surgeons. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 260 of 288 ) fayaz: "So the only authentic source for guidance is the Koran." And the Quran also explicitly calls for using terror and violence against non muslims, if muslims PERCEIVE ANY INJUSTICE (it does not require any ACTUAL INJUSTICE, mind you). This would mean that all muslims have a legitimate order from the Quran to inflict violence on non muslims. Now, you will hem and haw about how the Quran is completely innocuous, but I challenge you to a serious look at the semantics of some of the more vicious and violent passages in the Quran that are considered as the gospel truth by most muslims. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 261 of 288 ) fayaz: "Coming to your point. Muslims are not supposedly stupid to follow any Mullah or cleric." Stupidity has nothing to do with it. If the mullahs in your neighbourhood are a buch of mangy, jihadi-supporting scumbags, then you as a devout muslim and a person with no alternative place of worship WILL BELIEVE ALL THE CRAP THIS MULLAHS ESPOUSES. So you contention that muslims are in control of which mullah they listen to is a load of hogwash from a common-sense perspective. |
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gandalf 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 262 of 288 ) Karapall: Do shut up |
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jbindra 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 263 of 288 ) We shall overcome. Karapall : Your buffoonery exceeds all limits of imagination. Very entertaining I must say. So going by your words, you are not stupid but simply eschewing the fanatical beliefs that your local VHP pandit indoctrinates you with. I wonder if you left your intelligence at the temple altar. I would revel to know what the other 0.9999* billion Indian people think about this claim that they are inherently so gullible that they let their devotion betray them into fanaticism and violence, without using any rational standards. Ever thought of applying to al-qeda university in Kandahar ? Last they were looking for a few men with wonderfully miniscule amounts of cerebral content and a great liking for talking crap with finesse. |
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gandalf 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 264 of 288 ) There is one point in post 263 that I dont agree with. Karapall is now irritating and no more entertaining. The continous barrage of hate and buffoonery serves to obfuscate facts, diverge reason and instigate back answers which is a wast of time. Unfortuanetly that is the prime objective of the mongrel and his sidekick. This is the messageboard equivalent of Sanghis physically disrupting functions that are not to their liking. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 265 of 288 ) gandalf: "Karapall: Do shut up" bite me, asshole. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 266 of 288 ) jbindra: "I would revel to know what the other 0.9999* billion Indian people think about this claim that they are inherently so gullible that they let their devotion betray them into fanaticism and violence, without using any rational standards." "rational standards" for religion??? I guess it slipped by your simple mind that religion is all about irrationality, i.e., faith. |
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fayaz 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 267 of 288 ) Karapall -- I rest my case. You tend to be adamant on making people believe that the Koran is a terrorist manual. Well, what can I say other than this -- like any other religion, the Koran exhorts it's followers to battle evil that is perpetrated on them. It is their dharma. You interpret this as a decree to terrorise non muslims. So be it. It is not my job to convince you. My job is to speak the truth and to quell misunderstanding. Not to remedy a deliberately perverse interpretation held onto by someone even though the truth is being made to stare them in the eye. As far as your contention that faith is irrational, you couldnt be more wrong. You have faith in your mother's affection and you know that she wants you to do well in life, but that does not come in the way of your thought processes and you making decisions for yourself in life. It is afterall left to you to make decisions about what is best for your own life. She just defines the standards by which she will percieve if you have done well for yourself or not. |
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luvvmann 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 268 of 288 ) fayaz, let me ask you one question. why do you think the socalled rationalists and marxists are always baiting hinduism, which is liberal in it's outlook. after all these donkey dicks hate religion, and do not believe in god. how come all of them seem to support islamic terrorism, muslim causes, and generally do not criticize islam at all. what is your take on it. gandlaf is a good example here. jyothi basu a good example in the political arena. care to explain. |
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gandalf 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 269 of 288 ) I really have not seen anyone baiting Hindhuism here.. exept maybe Qasim to as small extent. Lowman and Karpal I guess after loosing their jobs worlomg on Y2K jobs are now being paid per line of crap instead of code |
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jbindra 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 270 of 288 ) We shall overcome. Luvvman : When all else fails, show yourself as the victim of a communist or marxist ideology. Get real Mr. Luvvman !! Everyone here is worried about India and Indians. Not what muslims of other nations keep doing. So if you get this into your seemingly thick skull, we are more worried about the neo-nazi facism that is beginning to surface in India, which has it's basis on hating others. The fanatics who have grabbed power and infiltrated the rank and file of the police and judiciary if not stopped in time will take the whole nation to destruction. No nation can progress without integration. In essence, You do not become a better Hindu by hating Muslims and Sikhs and that is the point we are trying to put up here for you. Did you get that you piece of crap. Gandalf : Seems that to be a fanatic follower of religion is more important than to be a rational human loving communist. I guess these idiots give you that calling out of contempt ? |
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gandalf 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 271 of 288 ) Who the hell is baiting Hindhuism??.. And thank God for the commies, they are the only guys who give it back to you guys fist for fist, sword for sword. You can rant aginst the old man basu, but if you show you khaki slip in Cal I am sure they will get of their trams an bugger you, like you were when you were a kid. Lowman you are a blatant liar.. Who supports Islamic terrosim. Can you point out one Post here that support islamic terrorism.. You are the only person of course with you worm karapall who support blind killing and murder.Disgusting revolting Moron. If your problem is you get it up go to a sex clinic you impotent molested bastard |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 272 of 288 ) jbindra: "if you get this into your seemingly thick skull, we are more worried about the neo-nazi facism that is beginning to surface in India, which has it's basis on hating others." Fascist tendencies exist in various segments of the Indian population, so to claim that only hindus are fascists in India would not only be wrong, but would smack of prejudice on your part. Fascism is all about demonizing your competitor, and the commies in India along with their pseudo-secular scumbag friends have made a living off generating hatred against hindus, and hindu dipshits are too disorganized to counter this threat. VHP and RSS make a half-assed attempt to counter the demagoguery of the left and the pseudo-secularists, but unless they buy media chains currently owned by the pseudo-secularists or otherwise create competing media outlets, they will always be at the receiving end, and I cannot say I feel particularly sorry for them. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 273 of 288 ) jbindra: "The fanatics who have grabbed power and infiltrated the rank and file of the police and judiciary if not stopped in time will take the whole nation to destruction." What a load of horse manure!! Firstly, it is a given in Indian politics (and american politics too, in fact, though to a lesser extent) that as soon as you come to power, you position your people in key posts that wield influence, as you dont want your political opponents to use govt. machinery to embarrass you. All of this is plain old politics, so you can quit going apeshit about hindu fascism like the whore Anita Pratap, who seems to think that she is of european descent and that Indians should listen to the europeans on how to behave (yes, the same europeans who slaughtered 4 million jews not so long ago). " No nation can progress without integration." US did so for 200 years without integration, so stop blabbering, you fool. That is not to say I am against integration, but to claim that development can only come after integration is laughably ridiculous. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 274 of 288 ) Gandalf: "Who the hell is baiting Hindhuism??.. " I distinctly recall your contention that any hindu who has views coinciding with RSS is a traitor and a scumbag. Now, I would call that baiting, but I would be interested in knowing what you call it. "And thank God for the commies, they are the only guys who give it back to you guys fist for fist, sword for sword." And "you guys" would be hindus I presume. Well, well, what were you saying about not indulging in hindu baiting...not that I give a shit either way, but it is funny to see assholes like you give sanctimonious lectures on how peace and harmony are SOOOO important to India, and then turn back and spit some venom at hindus and hindu interests. Quite funny, really... |
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luvvmann 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 275 of 288 ) gandalf, what a gem from you "the same as sanghis dispupting functions that they do not like". insane matherchot, then what is islam that does not allow "others to perform religious rites the way they see fit". what is islam that breaks thousands of temples sanctified by religion. the most recent example was in bamiyan where beautiful statues of the buddha were blown up. you hypocritical matherchot, no amount of obfuscation from marxists like you will wash any more. islam and marxism are two of the most senseless religions in the world. the latter is meeting it's death. marxism will be wiped out in about 10 years. islam is more stubborn. it will also be wiped out, but will take longer. just like europe has rejected christianity in it's islamic form (previously), the world will also reject islam. the war is coming believe me. |
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jbindra 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 276 of 288 ) We shall overcome. Karapall : but it is funny to see assholes like you give sanctimonious lectures on how peace and harmony are SOOOO important to India, and then turn back and spit some venom at hindus and hindu interests Please explain in clear terms what you mean by Hindu interests ? I would like to hear what you have to say. |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 277 of 288 ) jbindra: "Please explain in clear terms what you mean by Hindu interests ?" Glorifying the name of hindu gods by rebuilding a temple for them at the place of birth of these gods, i.e., ayodhya?? Given that Ayodhya is in the forefront of your commie brain most of the time, I REALLY WONDER how you did not make the connection UNLESS you really dont give a shit about the wishes of hindus in this country, but then one cannot expect more from khalisthani pieces of shit like you. Enough said. |
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gandalf 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 278 of 288 ) Lowman: Taliban distruction of Baniayan statues is the same as babri masjid sistruction, done by fanatic criminals. But leave that.. What the hell is this "just like europe has rejected christianity in it's islamic form (previously)",. I admit, I am completely stymed |
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gandalf 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 279 of 288 ) Crappal: Post 277 "Enough said." .. Way to go my boy.. Hopefully you ment this and would remain shut for at least a week. Enough said it seems.. this applies to you first post ever which I am sure everyone wishes was your last |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 280 of 288 ) gandalf, Sorry to dash your hopes, dumbass. I will continue to post just to get your goat, if nothing else. Now, shoo, go away. |
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luvvmann 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 281 of 288 ) gandalf, most europeans are ashamed of calling themselves "christians". they reject the notion of one exclusive god and exclusive prophet like the "old christains" and muslims do. like the bible is the word of god (bullshit). like koran is the word of god (bullshit). mohammad is the last prophet from allah the exclusive god (bullshit). this kind of fucked up bullshit is rejected by most western europeans. americans are far more religious, but, not fanatic. they have managed to separate personal religion from public discourse. they do not flaunt their religion mostly. human values and custom have taken over for the most part. there is tolerance for the others viewpoint. you can build temples, mosques, synagogues, anything as long as the law of the land is followed. saudi arabian bastards are the other extreme. no monuments other than islamic are allowed. these medieval monsters are a disgrace and get their support from "socalled" secularists like you. |
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gcrv87 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 282 of 288 ) I think these discussions are ignoring lessons of history. Supressing people for long enough will invite a back lash. What happened in gujrat has not affected most people in rest of India. If justice is not done in Gujrat and similar progroms are enacted else where in India then we better forget about the way we live now. I remember living in Delhi at the peak of the Khalistan movement. In Pakistan the fundamentalists first targeting kashmir and afghanistan soon turned on their people. How far are we when South Indians will be targeted in Delhi and non Tamilians wil be targeted in Chennai. We all know what Shiv Sena was up to before it became anti muslim. Will the christians and tribals of eastern states be immnune to this disease? Think hard before we justify what is currently happening in Gujrat because it may affect you in future in a way that you cant imagine. |
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jbindra 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 283 of 288 ) We shall overcome. Karapall : So according to you a temple is the only Hindu interest which the muslims have whole heartedly been an impediment to ? You care less about food, shelter and clothing ? You think that a temple will educate them to be better self sufficient human beings ? Do you think that a temple will make their lot any different from what it is presently. Please think again and respond cogently. What are these HINDU INTERESTS that you talk about ? |
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Karapall 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 284 of 288 ) jbindra, I never said that the hindu interests were rational, did I? Ayodhya seems to be an issue with a lot of hindus, and while your royal highness would prefer that all hindus shared your priorities, I doubt if the hindus see it that way. By the way, I am sure you learnt that bigger was better when you were playiing doctor with your neighbourhood buddy as a child, but I can assure you that it does not mean bigger font sizes mean better posts. |
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gandalf 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 285 of 288 ) Lowman, sorry I missed this . Your post 281 is amazing in its delusions and stupidity. "most europeans are ashamed of calling themselves "christians". they reject the notion of one exclusive god and exclusive prophet like the "old christains" i REALLY AM LOST, ARE YOU SAYING THAT SOME NEW RELIGION IS STARTING IN eUROPE WITH MANY Gods? Or are you saying, chances are they will all become Hindu? Are you staying in an ISKON temple?.. Forget it dude you obviouly have lost it |
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ulmo3 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 286 of 288 ) This is something I have been saying for quite a long time. Its not about religion but about Power. BJP or RSS dont give a shit about Hinduism but they give a lot of shit for Power. Any party for that matter. BJP has decided that this is their Bandwagon to climb to power just like in the 70s and in 80s Congress decided to use BCs and Muslims to climb to power. Its really funny how these Political Parties continue to play the divide and rule game started by the British. Now let me look at the issues of the BJP and what they have done so far when they have been in government 1. Ayodhya temple - Nothing much for the first few years, then when they lost an election use it to incite violence again. Why so that they can win another election. Do they really want to solve this issue? I dont think so the longer it is alive the more votes they can milk out of it 2. Articles on the Kashmir issue granting Kashmir special status - One of the issues I agree with BJP on, but I havent even heard a whimper about it. Conviniently pushed under the carpet 3. Uniform Civil Code - again something I agree on. Not a whisper. and many others. But Ram Mandir has been ressurrected so that they can divide the country into Hindus and Muslims play on the fears and win an election. If a few hundred people get killed so what. Oh and the BJP is not alone in this it learned a lot from the Congress who were past masters at this game What do you then make of the Indian Public who fall for these cheap tactics? |
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luvvmann 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 287 of 288 ) gandalf, chutiya. i clearly mentioned in my posting what i meant about europeans and christianity. please do not add things in your rebuttal that i did not mention at all. fucking idiot, i said most western europeans today do not go to church. they reject the stupid notion about prophethood and exclusive god that "christians" believe in (and muslims too, except the prophet is different). the muslims carry it to fucking absurd lengths (last prophet, only word of god etc.). i have no problem with these beliefs as long as they leave others alone. it is their problem if they want to believe in this fucking bullshit. the problem arises when these chutiyas try to tell other people how to pray and what to believe in. most christian countries have outgrown this bullshit and transformed themselves into modern democracies. the crazy muslim chutiyas are still living in a fuckiung dreamland in the 6th century. these mad fuckers are going to bring a lot of grief on themselves and others before it is over. the process has started and will end with the muslim jehadi fuckers being royally screwed once and for all. |
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bratgaba 3/19/2002 9:16:28 PM ( 288 of 288 ) Ma'am/Sir, I read with unconcealed delight Mr Azeem Premji's answer to a question that was posed to him in the "GREAT" U.S. of A. He was asked whether it was difficult to be a Muslim in India. His answer would have made Gandhiji proud - "I am an Indian first. If it was so difficult being a Muslim in India, I wouldn't have been where I am today". Sometimes, we get so overwhelmed by the Togadias, Modis and Thackerays of the country that we forget that we too exist - people like me, people like Mr Premji. People who take pride in being INDIAN first and INDIAN last, and the hell with what religion one adheres to. I don't know if you're back in India, Mr Premji and I don't know if you're reading this, but Thank You for reaffirming my faith in us. I'm quite simply falling in "Prem" with you. Bharatram Gaba BOMBAY bratgaba@indiatimes.com |
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